Venting Sick and tired of FORCED/TOXIC positivity surrounding trans people.

[beelzebul]

to save myself some potential headache, this thread is for BINARY trans people. so when i say "trans people", i'm referring to binary trans people only.

imagine having a crippling feeling of WRONGNESS 24/7. No, imagine BEING wrong. not socially wrong, but literally, physically wrong. that's having sex dysphoria. that's transsexualism.

it's fucking mindbogglingly harrowing for me. this feeling fuels my depression and suicidal tendencies and there is no stopping it because i'm simply wrong and i always will be. surgeries? i've had top surgery and a full hysterectomy, but i still don't feel even close to correct.

i seriously question any "trans" person that looks for the upside in having a disorder like dysphoria. there are no fucking upsides. i hate seeing smoothbrains on reddit (anywhere, really, but these snippets are taken from reddit) talking about dysphoria like it's a cute and uplifting experience.

"I feel like everyone is overly negative about the trans experience." HUH? you mean the crippling sex dysphoria we have? that "trans experience"?

"Yes, it sucks to be a different gender than your assigned sex at birth. Yes, dysphoria sucks. Yes, transphobia sucks. Yes, transitioning sucks at times. But I feel like no one is talking about the positive about it. The community we have." the "community" is not an upside to being trans. the community is a result of trans people needing safe place to escape from discrimination and oppression.

"The unique experience we have seeing gender from the eyes of "the other side"." i literally can't understand this at all. yes, i know how it feels to be a woman and experience the things women do... but that part of me is not something i look fondly on. i don't want to be able to relate to women in the way that i can as a transsexual man. no one suffering from dysphoria should want that either.

"Science is amazing! With T, I can grow my own mini dick?! That's wild. Did y'all know trans women can lactate?! That's mind blowing!" THESE AREN'T FUCKING UPSIDES. i feel like i'm losing my mind here. these statements are so fucking dysphoria inducing. i don't want a "mini dick", i want a real fucking dick. corrective surgery and HRT is not an upside to a crippling mental disorder.

"The experiences of everyone are valid." no.

"But being in the locker room and being able to change around other guys has been awesome! Getting tips from random men on how to improve my beard is epic!" a-fucking-gain, this is not an upside to being trans. this (in this person's case) is the result of being a man in a men's space. you are being recognized for you who are, who you should have been born as. it has nothing to do with the trans experience.

"I just feel like we're feeding into our own depression and sabotage." TIL being honest about sex dysphoria is sabotage. get bent.

i totally agree that wallowing in self pity is not conducive to living a productive or happy life, but forcing your ugly toxic positivity onto trans people is fucked up.

i wish i was cis. i hate being trans and fuck trenders and tucutes and everyone who wants to pretend like having a disorder is cute and fun. i'm so tired of this shit.

 

[Somber]

Bear with me.

A couple of years ago mom died after suffering from Alzheimer. I don't think she recognized us most of the time. She fell down a flight of stairs. They took her to the hospital, but there was nothing the doctors could do. That was emotionally painful, but over time the pain dulls as you learn to live with it

In the last years I went to the emergency ward twice for kidney stones. When they described it as one of the most painful things to experience, they weren't lying. That was physical pain that went away after passing the stones.

Life eventually carries on.

But none of those hold a candle to the constant agony of gender dysphoria. The discrepancy between who you are and how you are perceived by everyone and the mirror stands like a seemingly insurmountable obstacle between yourself and any chance for life and happiness.

Some manage to overcome that obstacle by transitioning, but not everyone is so lucky (sic).

I would choose to be a cis gendered girl every time and I'm pretty sure most trans people would prefer to be cis gendered.

 

[Thanksforeverything]

i totally agree that wallowing in self pity is not conducive to living a productive or happy life, but forcing your ugly toxic positivity onto trans people is fucked up.

i wish i was cis. i hate being trans and fuck trenders and tucutes and everyone who wants to pretend like having a disorder is cute and fun. i'm so tired of this shit.

Can I ask you something? I'm not trans, so I can't speak for anyone as such. But no one can speak for my unique experience with my miserable existence either. But I genuinely understand all the examples you've provided and how they downplay what trans people go through every day. So genuinely speaking, how can I be non-toxic to a trans person and not belittle their unique experiences either?

 

[omgisthatashley]

I can say "gender is a social construct" all I want, but I'll never be pregnant. No man sees me as woman enough to take as his wife and raise his child. Ill never pass enough to be seen as a woman in society, Ill never be treated like a woman by my friends or family; I will never really be a woman. So why do I even bother?

 

[beelzebul]

Can I ask you something? I'm not trans, so I can't speak for anyone as such. But no one can speak for my unique experience with my miserable existence either. But I genuinely understand all the examples you've provided and how they downplay what trans people go through every day. So genuinely speaking, how can I be non-toxic to a trans person and not belittle their unique experiences either?

i'm transmed, so i don't think i'm the best person to ask this.

medically speaking, not every "trans experience" is valid. people will attribute things to being trans when the thing they're talking about isn't actually part of the trans experience. ie, trenders claiming to love their natal genitals but still swearing that they're trans. dysphoria isn't disliking or being disconnected from one part of your sex, it's being disconnected from your whole sex. you can hate one part of you more than the other, but if you are fine or love any part of your sex, you're not trans.

i wholeheartedly feel that gatekeeping is necessary, especially for medical disorders, and if that results in someone feeling belittled, i can't and won't do anything about it.

 

[UKscotty]

I'm not trans but I interact with a lot of people and many many people you would think are on a level are racist, sexist, ageist or homophobes around each other.

We are decades away from really being an accepting open society. The trans agenda has progressed on paper but its probably worse now than ever in reality.

Not quite what you are talking about, but more to make the point people are generally not accepting of anything that's not the 'normal'

 

[KatzeK4]

I never related more to a post on here.

 

[chiaseedd]

As a nonbinary person, I fear I have the exact same experience. I'm tired of people thinking my gender is "choose your own adventure" just because I'm NB. Like, being who I know I am is completely unachievable and people need to stop pretending like I'm just gonna be ok with their positive bullshit that has no application to me. No, having a micro penis is not fun. Having my breasts cut off is not fun. I look in the mirror and all I see is the little kid who wondered why their breasts were growing because I even knew what I was then. I don't see this new body I'm supposed to be grateful for. I see a broken body covered in scars of trying to get rid of how I was born. This world is fucking broken, just like my body and mind is from gender dysphoria. I wish I was born the way I feel, or even better just not be born at all.

And being NB suck because even if I did get rid of all my natural gendered traits (because I hate them all), I still won't "pass." There is no passing for NB people. I have to be binary. It's fucking terrible. It's a curse.

 

[beelzebul]

As a nonbinary person, I fear I have the exact same experience. I'm tired of people thinking my gender is "choose your own adventure" just because I'm NB. Like, being who I know I am is completely unachievable and people need to stop pretending like I'm just gonna be ok with their positive bullshit that has no application to me. No, having a micro penis is not fun. Having my breasts cut off is not fun. I look in the mirror and all I see is the little kid who wondered why their breasts were growing because I even knew what I was then. I don't see this new body I'm supposed to be grateful for. I see a broken body covered in scars of trying to get rid of how I was born. This world is fucking broken, just like my body and mind is from gender dysphoria. I wish I was born the way I feel, or even better just not be born at all.

And being NB suck because even if I did get rid of all my natural gendered traits (because I hate them all), I still won't "pass." There is no passing for NB people. I have to be binary. It's fucking terrible. It's a curse.

hmm. i'm empathetic, and i'm going to say something and try not to be totally horrible here. bear with me.

i don't want any nb people to post in this thread with their experiences. i am transmed, so my views are that i only believe in the binary. i fully believe you experience a disconnect, but i don't believe it's related to transsexualism or sex dysphoria (which is binary).

i'm sorry, i know you posted with good intentions, but a huge source of my depression and problems comes from nb people invading trans spaces (especially spaces for transMEN.)

i have to CONSTANTLY deal with nb people invalidating me and my binary experience, calling me transphobic, misogynistic, and fully not understanding why it's important for binary trans people to have spaces for themselves. it's at the point where even seeing someone say they are nonbinary makes me sick. i don't hate nb people, i just wish you would make your own community and stop appropriating labels that simply don't belong to you. binary trans people are having to abandon the "transgender" label and adopt "transsexual" or "transsex" again, because nb people have appropriated "transgender". and now nb people are talking about taking "transsexual" too, because they don't like that we have our own fucking label again. it is a constant battle with nb people. i have OVERWHELMINGLY bad experiences with them and the overlap between harmful tucute ideology and nb people is too great for me to ignore.

i'm really sorry for you and other dysmorphic nb people, but i'm tired of our experiences being conflated.

I'm not trans but I interact with a lot of people and many many people you would think are on a level are racist, sexist, ageist or homophobes around each other.

We are decades away from really being an accepting open society. The trans agenda has progressed on paper but its probably worse now than ever in reality.

Not quite what you are talking about, but more to make the point people are generally not accepting of anything that's not the 'normal'

it's tough. i really miss the days when trans people weren't so fucking visible. it was possible to stealth. our surgery scars didn't make us clockable. a lot of people didn't hate us, they just didn't understand. nowadays, people are so hateful towards trans people and it's because of the visibility and harmful tucute rhetoric and overabundant misuse of "transphobia/transphobic". the overly aggressive push of acceptance these people are making is making it harder and harder for trans people like myself to even just exist.

 

[chiaseedd]

I am not responsible for how other nonbinary people treat you. I have a full disconnect with my AGAB lord it be ya own people
U fr don't think nb people are trans or have disconnect with their sex is wild !!
nonono you're right, my identity is the source of your depression. I should just end it all already lol my life is fucking POINTLESS it's fucking pointless that trans people won't even fucking accept me. Lmao no I think this was the final straw. Damn it be ya own people.

 

[beelzebul]

I am not responsible for how other nonbinary people treat you. I have a full disconnect with my AGAB lord it be ya own people
U fr don't think nb people are trans or have disconnect with their sex is wild !!
nonono you're right, my identity is the source of your depression. I should just end it all already lol my life is fucking POINTLESS it's fucking pointless that trans people won't even fucking accept me. Lmao no I think this was the final straw. Damn it be ya own people.

you can leave my thread now.

and i said from the start i was talking about binary trans people and the binary experience. another fucking example of a nb person interjecting themself into a conversation about binary trans people and getting mad.

 

[puella]

nonono you're right, my identity is the source of your depression. I should just end it all already lol my life is fucking POINTLESS it's fucking pointless that trans people won't even fucking accept me. Lmao no I think this was the final straw. Damn it be ya own people.

Don't worry about this too much. Transmedicalists have a lot of internalized transphobia. It's toxic, but it just comes from a place of hurting. There's nothing wrong with being nonbinary; 99% of binary trans people will accept you. Sending love.

 

[WiltedGirl]

in my experience theyfabs and other nonbinary ppl have been nicer and kinder to me than a lot of other transwomen

 

[omgisthatashley]

hmm. i'm empathetic, and i'm going to say something and try not to be totally horrible here. bear with me.

i don't want any nb people to post in this thread with their experiences. i am transmed, so my views are that i only believe in the binary. i fully believe you experience a disconnect, but i don't believe it's related to transsexualism or sex dysphoria (which is binary).

i'm sorry, i know you posted with good intentions, but a huge source of my depression and problems comes from nb people invading trans spaces (especially spaces for transMEN.)

i have to CONSTANTLY deal with nb people invalidating me and my binary experience, calling me transphobic, misogynistic, and fully not understanding why it's important for binary trans people to have spaces for themselves. it's at the point where even seeing someone say they are nonbinary makes me sick. i don't hate nb people, i just wish you would make your own community and stop appropriating labels that simply don't belong to you. binary trans people are having to abandon the "transgender" label and adopt "transsexual" or "transsex" again, because nb people have appropriated "transgender". and now nb people are talking about taking "transsexual" too, because they don't like that we have our own fucking label again. it is a constant battle with nb people. i have OVERWHELMINGLY bad experiences with them and the overlap between harmful tucute ideology and nb people is too great for me to ignore.

i'm really sorry for you and other dysmorphic nb people, but i'm tired of our experiences being conflated.



it's tough. i really miss the days when trans people weren't so fucking visible. it was possible to stealth. our surgery scars didn't make us clockable. a lot of people didn't hate us, they just didn't understand. nowadays, people are so hateful towards trans people and it's because of the visibility and harmful tucute rhetoric and overabundant misuse of "transphobia/transphobic". the overly aggressive push of acceptance these people are making is making it harder and harder for trans people like myself to even just exist.

i dont wanna argue ab this on here or with my siblings because i already do it with cissies every day, but "sex dysphoria" is not a real term. ppl experience dysphoria towards their sex characteristics because they dont align with their internal gender identity (hence the term gender dysphoria) and the external societal perception of said identity. the symptoms of dysphoria differ between everyone (just like every other disorder) because ppl are different and have different life experiences. some ppl (like us) see their genitalia and instantly wanna ctb. some ppl (the healthy ones that arent on SS) have learned to live with it, no matter how they feel. and regardless of how you feel, you have no right to tell others that their problems arent real. you are doing to them what cons do to us and thats the inherent ick in transmeds. any biology textbook made for middle schoolers or above will tell u sex isnt binary so j cut the shit. "all i did was parrot mysoginistic transphobic right wing talking points, then everyone called me a mysoginistic transphobic right winger!" thats what happens when u choose spewing bullshit over educating urself on something u dont understand. this pick-me infighting "im one of the good ones" shit isnt gonna save you. lets see how long cissies keep you on their side of the gate.

 

[beelzebul]

How fucking hard is it for people to respect that I wanted this thread to be for my binary woes? Insane that my feelings of being spoken over by nb people and tucutes are being actively validated in this very thread.

I didn't ask for your opinions. I'm venting.

 

[omgisthatashley]

binary woe and "just venting" isnt justification for shitting on someone commiserating with you. is that not why we're here? to wallow in mutual self pity? im sorry someone elses experience differs from the rigid guidelines you set for them, but thats j not how the world works. im happy to bitch and moan ab binary woe all day, but u created this headache for yourself by saying things that arent true about things you dont understand rather than listening to the ppl who will tell you what and how they feel. they merely expressed relating to your sentiment despite having a different identity, and you chose to respond with "um actually ur experience is fake and enbies are always mean to me so fuck u >:(". childish behavior.

 

[beelzebul]

binary woe and "just venting" isnt justification for shitting on someone commiserating with you. is that not why we're here? to wallow in mutual self pity? im sorry someone elses experience differs from the rigid guidelines you set for them, but thats j not how the world works. im happy to bitch and moan ab binary woe all day, but u created this headache for yourself by saying things that arent true about things you dont understand rather than listening to the ppl who will tell you what and how they feel. they merely expressed relating to your sentiment despite having a different identity, and you chose to respond with "um actually ur experience is fake and enbies are always mean to me so fuck u >:(". childish behavior.

here's the deal. i specified i wanted this space (my thread) to be for binary trans people/myself. they ignored my wishes and posted anyways, leading me to explain why i don't fucking want them here. my experiences with nb people have been overwhelmingly negative, borderline traumatic. i have been fucking oppressed by nb people and cis people alike and i'm SORRY if the way i spoke to them (a reflection of how I have been treated by nb people) offends you. i was a fully tucute "all experiences are valid" person until i started interacting with nonbinary people. my personal interactions with nb people have shaped who i am today. i know that doesn't make sense to you, but try to understand it even a little before you use every buzzword under the sun to describe me.

i'll fully admit that my tone was pointed when i responded to them, and it's because of how every time i want to talk about THE BINARY TRANS EXPERIENCE, some nb person has to come in and give me their two cents. i. didn't. fucking. ask.

and i didn't say any of that to them. i said that the disconnect they feel is real (validating them), just that i don't believe it to be sex dysphoria. also, sex is binary, gender can be nonbinary. binary erasure is fucking harmful to binary trans people and i'm not here for it.

take your ad hominem bullshit elsewhere. if you want to continue this, frankly, pointless conversation, you can dm me. otherwise i'm just gonna report you for derailment/harassment.

 

[Kasumi]

So genuinely speaking, how can I be non-toxic to a trans person and not belittle their unique experiences either?

How can you be non-toxic towards anyone?
Simply knowing and understanding what they're going through is enough imo.
You don't have to pity anyone for their misfortune nor would most people want that anyway.

Treat them with respect like you would treat any other person, you are non-toxic simply by not hating on people or downplaying their problems.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I'm sorry you experienced forced toxic positivity in trans spaces, @beelzebul, I feel you and empathise with your pain. That's why I'm running this forum and trying to do better because I've experienced similiar things in these spaces and it's absolutely necessary that trans people can express their frustration and suffering in an open, honest and adequate manner. And I understand why you wish to be born cisgender. I think many trans people here share that sentiment. I'm still asking you though to please refrain from attacking non-binary people. I understand you're frustrated because you intended to exchange opinions with people who have a similiar view as you on gender but we have a lot of non-binary people in this forum and I'm trying to make sure everyone feels accepted here. This is an inclusive space and taking the trans infighting that's happening out there into this forum doesn't really benefit anyone. We're all in the same boat here, binary or non-binary, all of us who are active in this forum made an account here because we're struggling and probably even thinking about suicide as a realistic option to find relief from our pain. So please try to tone down the hate, attacking non-binary people as "trenders and tucutes" doesn't really help anyone nor does it steer the conversation into a productive direction. I think most people here are on your side when you say being trans is rough. It definitely is, that's not even a question. But if you really feel angry about certain groups and you want to express that, there are better places to vent about that - for example r/truscum would probably a place where you'd feel comfortable sharing your opinion.

i wholeheartedly feel that gatekeeping is necessary, especially for medical disorders, and if that results in someone feeling belittled, i can't and won't do anything about it.

Gatekeeping doesn't really help anyone, gatekeeping is the reason why I started my transition later than I planned and that is the cause of suffering for many trans people in this forum - knowing we could have started our transition earlier if society didn't put so many hurdles in our way. And we're all about individual autonomy here and given the regret rate for trans people is approximately 2% on average, I don't see how more gatekeeping will make anyone happy. I just don't. If you feel like you need more gatekeeping, that's okay but to demand that other people should have a more difficult time transitioning isn't okay in my opinion. In the end it will only lead to more registrations from trans people in this forum.

i wish i was cis. i hate being trans and fuck trenders and tucutes and everyone who wants to pretend like having a disorder is cute and fun

I can gurantee, not that many trans people (including non-binary people) in this forum think that being trans is cute and fun. In fact, many trans people who have an account in this forum probably agree with you that being trans and experiencing dysphoria is a pain in the ass. It's a pain for me too. We wouldn't be in this forum if we considered being trans easy, I'm pretty sure most trans people who made an account in this forum did so because them being trans contributed to their struggles and suicidality in some way. But we also have to acknowledge that the way society is treating us, the discrimination we experience - and that includes people treating us as a mental illness (which is your medicalized approach to trans issues), is also a contributor to the suicide rate of trans people, a significant contributor actually. It's one of the reasons why the suicide attempt rate of trans people is so high. Regardless of our differences in opinion, I think we both agree that we need more support for trans people. I don't see how more gatekeeping and excluding trans people who don't fit your standard, who aren't "enough trans" in your opinion, leads us into a better world? I think that would be worse for all trans people. I also don't see the harm when some trans people try to put a positive spin on being trans and try to find the positives in that experience. As long we don't invalidate each other's perspective, it's all good, right? Like again, live and let live, wouldn't you agree?

And again, I just want to make sure to everyone here who might read this thread that nonbinary people are valid and definitely welcome in this forum.

 

[beelzebul]

I'm sorry you experienced forced toxic positivity in trans spaces, @beelzebul, I feel you and empathise with your pain. That's why I'm running this forum and trying to do better because I've experienced similiar things in these spaces and it's absolutely necessary that trans people can express their frustration and suffering in an open, honest and adequate manner. And I understand why you wish to be born cisgender. I think many trans people here share that sentiment. I'm still asking you though to please refrain from attacking non-binary people. I understand you're frustrated because you intended to exchange opinions with people who have a similiar view as you on gender but we have a lot of non-binary people in this forum and I'm trying to make sure everyone feels accepted here. This is an inclusive space and taking the trans infighting that's happening out there into this forum doesn't really benefit anyone. We're all in the same boat here, binary or non-binary, all of us who are active in this forum made an account here because we're struggling and probably even thinking about suicide as a realistic option to find relief from our pain. So please try to tone down the hate, attacking non-binary people as "trenders and tucutes" doesn't really help anyone nor does it steer the conversation into a productive direction. I think most people here are on your side when you say being trans is rough. It definitely is, that's not even a question. But if you really feel angry about certain groups and you want to express that, there are better places to vent about that - for example r/truscum would probably a place where you'd feel comfortable sharing your opinion.



Gatekeeping doesn't really help anyone, gatekeeping is the reason why I started my transition later than I planned and that is the cause of suffering for many trans people in this forum - knowing we could have started our transition earlier if society didn't put so many hurdles in our way. And we're all about individual autonomy here and given the regret rate for trans people is approximately 2% on average, I don't see how more gatekeeping will make anyone happy. I just don't. If you feel like you need more gatekeeping, that's okay but to demand that other people should have a more difficult time transitioning isn't okay in my opinion. In the end it will only lead to more registrations from trans people in this forum.



I can gurantee, not that many trans people (including non-binary people) in this forum think that being trans is cute and fun. In fact, many trans people who have an account in this forum probably agree with you that being trans and experiencing dysphoria is a pain in the ass. It's a pain for me too. We wouldn't be in this forum if we considered being trans easy, I'm pretty sure most trans people who made an account in this forum did so because them being trans contributed to their struggles and suicidality in some way. But we also have to acknowledge that the way society is treating us, the discrimination we experience - and that includes people treating us as a mental illness (which is your medicalized approach to trans issues), is also a contributor to the suicide rate of trans people, a significant contributor actually. It's one of the reasons why the suicide attempt rate of trans people is so high. Regardless of our differences in opinion, I think we both agree that we need more support for trans people. I don't see how more gatekeeping and excluding trans people who don't fit your standard, who aren't "enough trans" in your opinion, leads us into a better world? I think that would be worse for all trans people. I also don't see the harm when some trans people try to put a positive spin on being trans and try to find the positives in that experience. As long we don't invalidate each other's perspective, it's all good, right? Like again, live and let live, wouldn't you agree?

And again, I just want to make sure to everyone here who might read this thread that nonbinary people are valid and definitely welcome in this forum.

i don't have the mental energy to respond to all of this.

i'm just going to say that this thread was meant for binary trans people. i specifically said so in the op. the very first line in my post. people ignored my simple request and posted anyways. i'll admit i could have responded better to chiaseedd in particular and i pmed them and told them i was sorry for making them feel bad. i wish i had been nicer to them.

in hindsight, i don't think i needed to go into my transmed views (and atp i don't even know if i count as transmed, because i do think nb people are real and valid. i truly believe they suffer a disconnect, somehow, i just don't believe it's related to sex the same way sex dysphoria is). if i could go back in time, i wouldn't have gone into it. i felt disrespected and words came out of me before i could even think. that's kinda what happens when i set a boundary and people disrespect it. the world has no problem calling out men when they go into a space meant for women. many women have traumatic experiences with men.

i have traumatic experiences with nb people.

that's why i specified this thread, this single fucking thread on this whole ass website where cis, nb, trans, and whoever else can interact with each other freely everywhere, was for binary trans people. i have to deal with nb people and nondysphorics interjecting themselves into binary conversations, spaces, groups, whatever almost daily. it's, frankly, invasive. i just wanted a space for me and my binary thoughts. and maybe for other binary trans people to relate to me. why aren't binary trans people allowed to have safe spaces for themselves anymore? why can't we have all-inclusive safe spaces for lgbt folk and ALSO have safe spaces that aren't all-inclusive? is it THAT hard not to post in a thread that isn't for <you>? it's one thread out of millions. if you want a thread for all trans experiences, make one. this is not that place.

i understand that my experience of feeling oppressed and spoken over and silenced by nb people is not the universal experience. most people won't get it when i talk about it.

"how can a minority oppress you?"
"how can a minority that can be similar to you make you feel that way?"
"it doesn't make sense."
"i've never seen it."
"it doesn't happen."

i hear this all the time. why is it okay for people to say these things to me, but not to... say... black people and their experiences with white people? asian people and black people? gay people and straight people? cis people and trans people? why is it OKAY to diminish the experiences of binary trans people?

why is it okay to go into a binary trans space and tell people their desire for a real dick is transphobic? that wanting to blend in with society is transphobic? that having dysphoria is nbphobic? that being binary is nbphobic? that using "man" and "woman" is transphobic? that using "female" and "male" is transphobic? that wanting spaces where binary trans people can feel SAFE, where we can discuss our binary experiences is TRANSPHOBIC? WHY?

and no one ever has an answer for me. it's ALWAYS deflected or it's ALWAYS turned around to make binary trans people the villains AGAIN.

binary trans people and nb are fundamentally not the same. i will never know what it's like to be nb because i am binary. i can't relate to their disorder just like they can't relate to mine. they don't know what it's like to want to be <male> or <female>. i don't just want to just be a <man>. i want to be <male>. i want the male puberty experience, i want the male social experience. i want the awkward boners and wet dreams. i want to be uncomfortable when i sit on my balls. i want to have to tuck when i do drag for fun. i want the <MALE> experience. nb people don't.

i don't think nb people and binary trans people are completely, totally different. we do experience a lot of the same social negativity. but it's so fucking important that we all have our safe, not-all-inclusive spaces that we can go into when we need to be around others exactly like us. the friendships i have with nb people will never, ever, EVER be as deep, necessary, or as strong as the bonds i have with other transmen and even transwomen.

i don't hate nb people. i don't invalidate them, even though my experiences with them have been almost nothing but painful. i just think we're different. and that's... okay. we don't have to be the same to get along. we don't have to be in the same spaces, constantly, 24/7, to get along. it's okay for binary trans people to have a single thread for a few days before it gets lost beneath the hundreds of new threads being made every day.

i have never said that nb people aren't welcome on sasu. i have never even implied it. but from the get-go this thread was for binary trans people. i can't imagine you would have a problem with women making a thread for women or black people making a thread for black people. it's not segregation. it's not toxic exclusion. it's a necessity for minorities and hurt groups to have a safe space here and there. my wish to have this be for binary trans people should have been respected and it wasn't. that you think i wasn't civil in this thread (as implied in your pm) is kind of crazy and honestly insulting.

no one would fucking sit around and let a white guy talk over a black guy in his own space, yet it's happening here.

and for the record, the op i am quoting in the op is a binary transwoman. the op wasn't even related to nb people. my thread was literally hijacked.

i'm trying to stay calm and not let myself become too emotionally charged, but this is just another case of being spoken over by people in a space not for those people. i am furious and hurt and nauseated beyond belief.

 

[MyLuckyStars]

a great (magical and hypothetical, of course) solution would be if we just evolved gender reassignment surgery to the point of perfection. i think most hostility towards trans people is aesthetics based, moreso than moral (despite frequent claims otherwise). you see this with the willingness of people who normally disdain trans people to embrace blaire white, and so on. she passes cleanly, and so all hostility is shuffled away. this would benefit trans people, by finally matching body and brain, anti-trans people (no more "muh axe wound and skull" posting), and most likely, in the process, science as a whole. surprised that this talking point doesn't come up more often. literally a win win, other than for the people who genuinely think droves of trans people put themselves into abject misery for sexual thrill as opposed to combating dysphoria

 

[iwantdeath6969]

i mean first of all you can't really equate this experience with anything black people go through, so weird choice of words here.

second, i'm technically a binary trans person and i used to be more invested in infighting but i'm really not anymore, and if i can recommend one thing to you, it's to do the same thing. just step back from truscum/tucute politics and transmed ideology, and go out in the real world and meet real trans people, and you'll realize how little this type of shit matters. i'm not saying this to be condescending, i've been where you are and feeling the same things you do, but it just really doesn't matter offline and you're wasting your anger and sadness on ideologies that one day you'll look back and be in disbelief that you cared so much about this.

the fact that you're on here shows that you genuinely do have struggles (unlike some people who are aggressively transmed/tucute and only care about either side because they have nothing better to do) and you should honestly put more energy into something that feels better than just getting angry at strangers online and strawmen. again, please don't take this as me being harsh, it's just that i've been in your position and i know how much hurt and anger you have at the world. and i hope you can find more meaning in something else

 

[Rapière]

I would choose to be a cis gendered girl every time

Sorry if this is a stupid or offensive thing to say, but wouldn't it make no diference wether you choose to be a girl or boy, as long as you're cis and don't suffer from dysphoria (ie. feel comfortable in your own skin)?

 

[Thanksforeverything]

How can you be non-toxic towards anyone?
Simply knowing and understanding what they're going through is enough imo.
You don't have to pity anyone for their misfortune nor would most people want that anyway.

Treat them with respect like you would treat any other person, you are non-toxic simply by not hating on people or downplaying their problems.

Whenever I interact with anyone, I try to treat everyone equally. I had to do a debate for my class one time, and I was assigned to speak for women's rights. To which, someone asked, am I a feminist considering I'm a man and I'm supposedly arguing "Against" myself? Dumbfounded, I just answered that I believed in egalitarianism. I don't pity people, I just simply treat everyone the same.

But I sometimes feel confused as to whether I'm being insensitive by treating everyone the same. Don't get me wrong, when I say I'm treating everyone equally, I don't mean I want to belittle them or walk over their unique experiences to say that everyone's the same. I fully understand that unique experiences aren't solely the result of your race, ethnicity, gender or any other form of identification and everyone can suffer just as badly as the next person due to various nuances. The cause of your plight isn't the determining factor for how severe it is. Just look at how diverse the group of people in this forum are. We're all here for different reasons. But that doesn't detract from the fact that society isn't created equal, and maybe my treating everyone equally is unfair because it doesn't really address the inherent concept of privilege.

Honestly, I don't know the right or wrong answer. I just don't want to hurt anyone with my words or actions. There's enough suffering in the world already as it is.

 

[Kasumi]

Sorry if this is a stupid or offensive thing to say, but wouldn't it make no diference wether you choose to be a girl or boy, as long as you're cis and don't suffer from dysphoria (ie. feel comfortable in your own skin)?

Technically yes, it's like saying "wouldn't it make no difference whether you were a girl or a boy as long as you feel comfortable in your own skin" to a cis person.

Imagine me saying this to you (assuming ure cis here). While technically true, we are what we are so you'd feel like "well it does make a difference to me, cause I am a guy and I wouldn't be me if I were a cis girl" (also assuming ure a guy here).

Whenever I interact with anyone, I try to treat everyone equally. I had to do a debate for my class one time, and I was assigned to speak for women's rights. To which, someone asked, am I a feminist considering I'm a man and I'm supposedly arguing "Against" myself? Dumbfounded, I just answered that I believed in egalitarianism. I don't pity people, I just simply treat everyone the same.

But I sometimes feel confused as to whether I'm being insensitive by treating everyone the same. Don't get me wrong, when I say I'm treating everyone equally, I don't mean I want to belittle them or walk over their unique experiences to say that everyone's the same. I fully understand that unique experiences aren't solely the result of your race, ethnicity, gender or any other form of identification and everyone can suffer just as badly as the next person due to various nuances. The cause of your plight isn't the determining factor for how severe it is. Just look at how diverse the group of people in this forum are. We're all here for different reasons. But that doesn't detract from the fact that society isn't created equal, and maybe my treating everyone equally is unfair because it doesn't really address the inherent concept of privilege.

Honestly, I don't know the right or wrong answer. I just don't want to hurt anyone with my words or actions. There's enough suffering in the world already as it is.

I think it's perfectly fine to treat everyone equally, it's an attitude lots of people would do great acquiring.

The topic of equality vs fairness is an interesting one, but typically when we talk about treating people equally we really mean "fairly" anyway.
E.g. If you went shopping with a friend you wouldn't carry their bags, but if you went shopping with your grandma you would, cause it's difficult for her to carry them on her own.
Treating everyone equally would technically mean that you either carry the bags of both or of neither.

But thats just theory and definitions, I get what you mean and I think more people should strive to treat others fairly as you do.

 

[Rapière]

Technically yes, it's like saying "wouldn't it make no difference whether you were a girl or a boy as long as you feel comfortable in your own skin" to a cis person.

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying. I wss inclined to say yes at first, that I wouldn't see an issue with that, because I never thought there was such a thing as an inherently 'male' versus 'female' brain, but when I imagined myself participating in some freaky science experinent where they somehow transfered my mind into a female body, it did make me very uneasy. In order to make me feel comfortable in that new body of mine, they would have to erase the entire memory of having lived as a male for nearly two and a half decades, and at that point I just wouldn't be myself anymore.

 

[Kasumi]

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying. I wss inclined to say yes at first, that I wouldn't see an issue with that, because I never thought there was such a thing as an inherently 'male' versus 'female' brain, but when I imagined myself participating in some freaky science experinent where they somehow transfered my mind into a female body, it did make me very uneasy. In order to make me feel comfortable in that new body of mine, they would have to erase the entire memory of having lived as a male for nearly two and a half decades, and at that point I just wouldn't be myself anymore.

It's funny because I always use that example when I try to explain to someone how they should imagine being transgender.
I sometimes hear people say they cannot imagine being of the opposite gender, e.g. a woman saying "I'm trying to imagine how being transgender would be like but I simply cannot imagine myself as a man".
But that way of thinking is flawed, what she should imagine would be herself still being herself, but inside the body of a man.

Ultimately I agree with you on the notion that something as an inherently "male" or "female" brain doesn't exist.
We aren't really that different as society tries to make us out to be.
There are tendencies in personality traits, but they're just that, tendencies, a shy man is still a man and an assertive woman still a woman.

That said there must be some psychological difference between genders, otherwise we wouldn't feel uncomfortable imagining to be in the body of the opposite gender, and it's also worth considering that we're generally able to recognise a persons gender just by interacting with them, without seeing or hearing them and without them mentioning their gender.
That just tells us that yes, there is a clear difference between genders, but no it's not something that we can so easily define scientifically with attributes and the likes.
But then again humans seem to be really good at picking up on the difference between genders without actually being able to describe the difference precisely, which is just something really interesting to keep in mind imo.

 

[Rapière]

It's funny because I always use that example when I try to explain to someone how they should imagine being transgender.
I sometimes hear people say they cannot imagine being of the opposite gender, e.g. a woman saying "I'm trying to imagine how being transgender would be like but I simply cannot imagine myself as a man".
But that way of thinking is flawed, what she should imagine would be herself still being herself, but inside the body of a man.

Ultimately I agree with you on the notion that something as an inherently "male" or "female" brain doesn't exist.
We aren't really that different as society tries to make us out to be.
There are tendencies in personality traits, but they're just that, tendencies, a shy man is still a man and an assertive woman still a woman.

That said there must be some psychological difference between genders, otherwise we wouldn't feel uncomfortable imagining to be in the body of the opposite gender, and it's also worth considering that we're generally able to recognise a persons gender just by interacting with them, without seeing or hearing them and without them mentioning their gender.
That just tells us that yes, there is a clear difference between genders, but no it's not something that we can so easily define scientifically with attributes and the likes.
But then again humans seem to be really good at picking up on the difference between genders without actually being able to describe the difference precisely, which is just something really interesting to keep in mind imo.

Well, psychology is rooted in the brain/nervous system, so there must be some sort of structural difference for trans people to perceive themselves as opposite to their biological sex. I think most people have trouble grasping these concepts because their brains are always in tune with the rest of their bodies. It's like how you don't realize you have a stomach until there's something wrong wirh it.

 

[Kasumi]

Well, psychology is rooted in the brain/nervous system, so there must be some sort of structural difference for trans people to perceive themselves as opposite to their biological sex. I think most people have trouble grasping these concepts because their brains are always in tune with the rest of their bodies. It's like how you don't realize you have a stomach until there's something wrong wirh it.

That's the question though, is it even the mind that developed contrary to how it should have?
Or is it the body that developed in the wrong direction?

There are at least some studies suggesting that it has something to do with genetics.
For example, one study found that in monozygotic twins the likelihood of both being trans when one of them was, was about 33% I think.
While the likelihood for dizygotic zwins was close to 0%.

Considering that both twins were growing up in the same family and same environment that suggests that being transgender is at least partly genetic, considering how monozygotic twins start out with the same genes while dizygotic twins don't.

 

[beelzebul]

a great (magical and hypothetical, of course) solution would be if we just evolved gender reassignment surgery to the point of perfection. i think most hostility towards trans people is aesthetics based, moreso than moral (despite frequent claims otherwise). you see this with the willingness of people who normally disdain trans people to embrace blaire white, and so on. she passes cleanly, and so all hostility is shuffled away. this would benefit trans people, by finally matching body and brain, anti-trans people (no more "muh axe wound and skull" posting), and most likely, in the process, science as a whole. surprised that this talking point doesn't come up more often. literally a win win, other than for the people who genuinely think droves of trans people put themselves into abject misery for sexual thrill as opposed to combating dysphoria

i feel like society doesn't care enough about trans people to spend time and resources really progressing srs. we've come a LONG way from what it used to be, but the progress is painfully slow.

it would be AMAZING if all srs made leaps and bounds in the near future but i'm not holding my breath. i'm going to be stuck with female genitals until i die.