Discussion Should parents have the right to die?

[kvsvenky100]

In my opinion, parents shouldn't have the right to die because they are obligated to be around for the offspring that they chose to create and ethically don't have the right to make them orphans.

 

[Sasukecel]

In my opinion, parents shouldn't have the right to die because they are obligated to be around for the offspring that they chose to create and ethically don't have the right to make them orphans.

Parents were selfish in that they chose to have offspring. They now can't commit suicide without being selfish to the kid. Actions have consequences. You have to live with your decision.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Agreed. You can't have kids and then just fucking bail on them. Until they are adults and living on their own parents are obligated to stay alive for their sake. You don't get to be selfish and force someone into existence only to then traumatize them and screw them over by killing yourself. Your child, your responsibility.

 

[Tesha]

IMO, parents have the same right as everyone else to make their own decisions about their end of life. The decision becomes much, much harder when you have kids (for a lot of parents).

I do think parents have more of a responsibility to try EVERYTHING they can to improve and extend their lives before killing themselves, but in many places the support just isn't available (it isn't available for anyone). It's a very difficult subject as I suspect not many parents have children, knowing they're going to want to end their lives within the following years.

My observation is people who have been traumatised, who are suicidal, who have their own immense struggles think about the 'consequences of actions' much more than people who are just 'living'. By this I mean I often see comments here around why parents thought it was ok to have kids, why didn't they consider X, Y or Z. The hard truth is most people don't think like that; many of these thoughts that we have here are based on hindsight bias and our shitty experiences.

So, I guess that's why most parents do not think as deeply about having children as some others expect them to. There is no handbook to parenting, no mass education on what good looks like, no exams etc.

People on the whole do what they feel is right for them at the time. They don't plan for every eventuality (especially something like suicidal ideation); it's just not natural to think like that.

 

[kvsvenky100]

IMO, parents have the same right as everyone else to make their own decisions about their end of life. The decision becomes much, much harder when you have kids (for a lot of parents).

I do think parents have more of a responsibility to try EVERYTHING they can to improve and extend their lives before killing themselves, but in many places the support just isn't available (it isn't available for anyone). It's a very difficult subject as I suspect not many parents have children, knowing they're going to want to end their lives within the following years.

My observation is people who have been traumatised, who are suicidal, who have their own immense struggles think about the 'consequences of actions' much more than people who are just 'living'. By this I mean I often see comments here around why parents thought it was ok to have kids, why didn't they consider X, Y or Z. The hard truth is most people don't think like that; many of these thoughts that we have here are based on hindsight bias and our shitty experiences.

So, I guess that's why most parents do not think as deeply about having children as some others expect them to. There is no handbook to parenting, no mass education on what good looks like, no exams etc.

People on the whole do what they feel is right for them at the time. They don't plan for every eventuality (especially something like suicidal ideation); it's just not natural to think like that.

Parents are obligated to stay alive for the children who didn't choose to be born though.

 

[Tesha]

Parents are obligated to stay alive for the children who didn't choose to be born though.

I appreciate that many people would feel it should be this way, but there is nothing that 'obligates' anyone to stay alive. Suicidal ideation is a force to be reckoned with - as I'm sure you know, it overwhelms you to the point you want to die. This intense feeling doesn't change just because you have kids. In my experience, it just brings more pain to a parent, as they also need to consider the impact on their child - which then self perpetuates the suicidal feelings.

 

[kvsvenky100]

So you're ok with children being made orphans?

 

[Tesha]

So you're ok with children being made orphans?

I'm a parent, on a prochoice forum, who has been involuntary hospitalised in the past for suicide attempts and ideation. I'm actively still trying to recover, but it's becoming progressively harder.

Do I think it's 'ok'? No I don't. Do I understand why it happens. Yes I do.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's a subject I really struggle with because my Mum died of natural causes when I was 3, so I know what devastating effect it has on your life.

Ideally, of course it would be good if they could hang on for the child's sake. Really though- it's still a tricky subject because, just how much are they going to be able to hold it together in front of the child?

I'm grateful daily that I didn't have children because I cry so often and I'm not sure I'd even be able to stop that in front of family. What affect would that have on a child? What if they witness self harm scares or destructive behaviour? How will that affect them?

I feel like it's an almost impossible situation. Some parents seem to feel like it would be more damaging to their children if they stayed around. If they don't feel like they can change or cope, I just don't know which is better or- what the solution really is. I suppose, if the child is actually in danger, perhaps getting other family members to care for it or even adoption might be better. Again, impossible to know for sure.

I guess it depends on just how bad the situation is. Whether the person can hold it together at all to function as a parent. In a way, it's the same for many of us, regardless of having children. Suicide really impacts families and loved ones. I suspect we are all assessing how bad our own situations feel and whether we can hold it together enough to function for the sake of other people. I'd argue that parents do have a greater responsibility though.

 

[rozeske]

Parents are not super heros. They are humans just like everyone else. They are not immune to suffering. Infact I think the added responsibility for another human and the added feeling of guilt would easily make it more intense. Would it have been better had they not procreated or if they didn't leave an orphan behind? Yes. Would it have been better if they never potentially passed on their mental illness? definitely. Would it have been better if their own struggles never ruined the childhood/life of their offspring? Absolutely. But life isn't all that perfect now is it? We all would have prefered if everything in this world worked out perfectly but that is not the case.
I don't believe they should be shamed for not being able to take anymore suffering leave.

 

[davidtorez]

In my opinion, parents shouldn't have the right to die because they are obligated to be around for the offspring that they chose to create and ethically don't have the right to make them orphans.

Depending on the age and care required by the child /offspring I don't believe they have the right . If the children are independent and don't require any care or help then I do believe the parent should have the right to die like anyone else.

 

[Not A Fan]

In general, I can understand why people would encourage parents of young children to postpone suicide. Pretty uncontroversial. But there might be some instances where it is a little more ambiguous.

Suppose the parent is already in such poor condition and not able to care for the child

There are some cases where it might be clearly be a breach of responsibility. However, it seems that parents breach their responsibilities towards their children in plenty of other ways; some of which are arguably worse than the parent killing themselves.

So it is by far not the worst thing a parent could do. In the case of an abusive parent, they might even be doing the child a favor (and that might even be their reason for ctb.)

Legally... it could be problematic. If a parent of small children makes a failed suicide attempt in the house, the police and detectives come kicking down doors, the person will be punished. And lose custody of their children most likely. In a legal sense, I don't think a parent has such rights. It might vary by country.

 

[sugarb]

In my opinion, parents shouldn't have the right to die because they are obligated to be around for the offspring that they chose to create and ethically don't have the right to make them orphans.

There's an enormous gray area and a whole tangle of philosophical problems here.

Not all parents are willing- some states don't allow abortion access. Birth control can fail. Things like rape, coercion, and baby-trapping all exist.

Denying certain people the right to die because other people (in this case children) rely on them or will be harmed by their death could be extended to all sorts of cases and is also a pro-life argument. Should people caring for their elderly parents be denied the right to die? The parents of severely disabled adults? Would you deny a neurosurgeon's right to die if there were a patient in the ICU that needed them? Where's the line drawn here? How old do the kids have to be before CTB is okay again? Etc. I really don't like the idea of subjecting some our own to the same injustice pro-lifers do to the rest of us.

Orphans can and do find new homes, either in foster care or via adoption. These aren't perfect systems, but those children almost certainly won't be living on the streets. They could also potentially live with extended family.

Also- I doubt that a suicidal person forced to be alive despite their anguish would be a model parent. I sure wouldn't be. As such, prolonging the parent's life could just make the child's life worse.

I think the best solution is simply ensuring the child is taken care of before allowing CTB.

 

[kvsvenky100]

There's an enormous gray area and a whole tangle of philosophical problems here.

Not all parents are willing- some states don't allow abortion access. Birth control can fail. Things like rape, coercion, and baby-trapping all exist.

Denying certain people the right to die because other people (in this case children) rely on them or will be harmed by their death could be extended to all sorts of cases and is also a pro-life argument. Should people caring for their elderly parents be denied the right to die? The parents of severely disabled adults? Would you deny a neurosurgeon's right to die if there were a patient in the ICU that needed them? Where's the line drawn here? How old do the kids have to be before CTB is okay again? Etc. I really don't like the idea of subjecting some our own to the same injustice pro-lifers do to the rest of us.

Orphans can and do find new homes, either in foster care or via adoption. These aren't perfect systems, but those children almost certainly won't be living on the streets. They could also potentially live with extended family.

Also- I doubt that a suicidal person forced to be alive despite their anguish would be a model parent. I sure wouldn't be. As such, prolonging the parent's life could just make the child's life worse.

I think the best solution is simply ensuring the child is taken care of before allowing CTB.

There is a difference though. None of us chose to be born so we are not obligated to our parents, siblings or whatever. But parents chose to have kids.

There's an enormous gray area and a whole tangle of philosophical problems here.

Not all parents are willing- some states don't allow abortion access. Birth control can fail. Things like rape, coercion, and baby-trapping all exist.

Denying certain people the right to die because other people (in this case children) rely on them or will be harmed by their death could be extended to all sorts of cases and is also a pro-life argument. Should people caring for their elderly parents be denied the right to die? The parents of severely disabled adults? Would you deny a neurosurgeon's right to die if there were a patient in the ICU that needed them? Where's the line drawn here? How old do the kids have to be before CTB is okay again? Etc. I really don't like the idea of subjecting some our own to the same injustice pro-lifers do to the rest of us.

Orphans can and do find new homes, either in foster care or via adoption. These aren't perfect systems, but those children almost certainly won't be living on the streets. They could also potentially live with extended family.

Also- I doubt that a suicidal person forced to be alive despite their anguish would be a model parent. I sure wouldn't be. As such, prolonging the parent's life could just make the child's life worse.

I think the best solution is simply ensuring the child is taken care of before allowing CTB.

Also, I'm only talking about those who chose to have kids. Not those who were raped, or didn't have access to abortion.

 

[Ash]

Ok, here's a different perspective.

My father was an alcoholic. He eventually recovered in my twenties but then died a few years later before I was ready to reconcile our relationship (he made many attempts to reach out to me after he sobered up).

He nearly died several times in accidents while he was drunk, including one time before I understood what drunk really was. To me, it was normal by then. I'm not sure, and I'm never going to ask my family as everyone seems to have him on a pedestal, but I believe that one was a suicide attempt.

Had he died when I was a child, everything would have been different.

Maybe not better, but I wouldn't have grown up hating him, and then spent the last twenty years hating myself for not reaching out when I had the chance. At his funeral, everyone was mourning the man they knew. I was the only person who knew the drunkard father. His sister had a go at me in front of everyone about what a selfish person I was for ignoring him. No one, not even my own mother defended me in public.

If he did attempt suicide, from my own selfish perspective, I wish he had succeeded. Or when he crashed the car whilst driving drunk on the way to pick me up from school. Or the numerous times he drove drunk with me in the car.

He died eventually, alone.

Maybe things would have been better if he'd died 10 years earlier.

Just a what if.

Not all parents are perfect.

Some are as screwed up as us in their own way. (Thanks to his parents. Not his fault. I don't know their stories.)

 

[kvsvenky100]

Parents are not super heros. They are humans just like everyone else. They are not immune to suffering. Infact I think the added responsibility for another human and the added feeling of guilt would easily make it more intense. Would it have been better had they not procreated or if they didn't leave an orphan behind? Yes. Would it have been better if they never potentially passed on their mental illness? definitely. Would it have been better if their own struggles never ruined the childhood/life of their offspring? Absolutely. But life isn't all that perfect now is it? We all would have prefered if everything in this world worked out perfectly but that is not the case.
I don't believe they should be shamed for not being able to take anymore suffering leave.

But parents forced their children to live and suffer in this hellhole. They didn't give a damn about consent then.

 

[rozeske]

But parents forced their children to live and suffer in this hellhole. They didn't give a damn about consent then.

I think this whole not asking for a consent before bringing a child in to this world, this hell, has been a bit too glorified. I think it's kind of unrealistic don't you think? To ask and choose and to sign a contract of some sort with the child before giving birth? Should you be having a child whilst actively suicidal is another question and no I don't believe it's a risk worth taking. But that's not the case for most parents and they shouldn't be judged for giving birth "without consent" or for finding life hard enough to keep going.

 

[kvsvenky100]

I think this whole not asking for a consent before bringing a child in to this world, this hell, has been a bit too glorified. I think it's kind of unrealistic don't you think? To ask and choose and to sign a contract of some sort with the child before giving birth? Should you be having a child whilst actively suicidal is another question and no I don't believe it's a risk worth taking. But that's not the case for most parents and they shouldn't be judged for giving birth "without consent" or for finding life hard enough to keep going.

Obviously it's impossible to ask for consent before giving birth, that's why they should have refrained from giving birth. But suicidal parents didn't give a damn about whether the child would like the idea of being forced to suffer and die, but now they want their choice to be respected even though they are the ones who made their children dependent on them.

 

[qw3rty259]

Everyone has their right to kill themselves. Nothing can take it from you. While we can criticise their decision, why would they care about what people think about them after their death? If you feel bad, nothing will stop you.

 

[kvsvenky100]

Everyone has their right to kill themselves. Nothing can take it from you. While we can criticise their decision, why would they care about what people think about them after their death? If you feel bad, nothing will stop you.

What about children? Should they have it too?

 

[qw3rty259]

What about children? Should they have it too?

Everyone has it. Are you really trying to legally(?) forbid people to kill themselves or what? That's a next level dictatorship

 

[rozeske]

Obviously it's impossible to ask for consent before giving birth, that's why they should have refrained from giving birth. But suicidal parents didn't give a damn about whether the child would like the idea of being forced to suffer and die, but now they want their choice to be respected even though they are the ones who made their children dependent on them.

Exactly. No way to ask for a consent so they decide to have one only from their point of view. And I don't believe that parents procreated for the soul purpose of bringing a child in to this hell and letting the world torture that child. It's only natural to want to procreate and mostly people don't have a hidden evil agenda for doing that. There are millions and millions of people who are grateful for the life they have, grateful for having been born. I don't believe everyone should refrain from giving birth. Yes, there are major things you should consider before bringing a child but not everyone gives birth on the verge of about to commit suicide. Things change and life happens. You never know when your breaking point will be or what would be the cause of that. You shouldn't be obligated to stay just because there is a child involved. No one should be obligated for any reason for that matter.

 

[sugarb]

There is a difference though. None of us chose to be born so we are not obligated to our parents, siblings or whatever. But parents chose to have kids.

Also, I'm only talking about those who chose to have kids. Not those who were raped, or didn't have access to abortion.

Maybe so, but as I stated earlier, forcing an unwilling person to parent would likely do more harm than good.

Willing parents is a whole other conversation, you probably should've specified before posting. Speaking of- why is it different if they were willing or not, anyway?

The effect of the parent CTBing on the child is going to be the same regardless of how the child was conceived- you're basing morality off of the obligations of the parties involved rather than the actual effects. The child wouldn't be any less orphaned and potentially traumatized if the parent(s) were coerced, so why does it matter?

Also, you ignored most of the points I brought up.

I think this whole not asking for a consent before bringing a child in to this world, this hell, has been a bit too glorified. I think it's kind of unrealistic don't you think? To ask and choose and to sign a contract of some sort with the child before giving birth? Should you be having a child whilst actively suicidal is another question and no I don't believe it's a risk worth taking. But that's not the case for most parents and they shouldn't be judged for giving birth "without consent" or for finding life hard enough to keep going.

Exactly. My parents are good people and wanted to share their happiness with me. It's not their fault my world is nothing like theirs.

 

[kvsvenky100]

Everyone has it. Are you really trying to legally(?) forbid people to kill themselves or what? That's a next level dictatorship

So you think children should be allowed on SaSu?

 

[Tesha]

Ok, so here's a question (not to anyone in particular). Try and put aside the discussion about whether having children is morally right or not for one minute…

Does a terminally ill parent of a ten year old have the right to chose how and when to end their own life?

 

[kvsvenky100]

Exactly. No way to ask for a consent so they decide to have one only from their point of view. And I don't believe that parents procreated for the soul purpose of bringing a child in to this hell and letting the world torture that child. It's only natural to want to procreate and mostly people don't have a hidden evil agenda for doing that. There are millions and millions of people who are grateful for the life they have, grateful for having been born. I don't believe everyone should refrain from giving birth. Yes, there are major things you should consider before bringing a child but not everyone gives birth on the verge of about to commit suicide. Things change and life happens. You never know when your breaking point will be or what would be the cause of that. You shouldn't be obligated to stay just because there is a child involved. No one should be obligated for any reason for that matter.

So what if it is natural? Humans have the intellect to think rationally. There are also millions and millions of people who are not grateful for the life they have. Why should they be forced to suffer just because "good lives" are being created?

It's different for parents though, they chose to make kids who will be dependent on them. And then suicidal parents want to run away from a responsibility that they created for themselves.

 

[qw3rty259]

So you think children should be allowed on SaSu?

Idk. But I think they are already allowed aren't they? What stops them from entering the site?

 

[sugarb]

So you think children should be allowed on SaSu?

So you think a ten year old with stage 4 cancer shouldn't be allowed to CTB?

Ok, so here's a question (not to anyone in particular). Try and put aside the discussion about whether having children is morally right or not for one minute…

Does a terminally ill parent of a ten year old have the right to chose how and when to end their own life?

I would say yes. Actually, I'd argue that's the kindest thing to do for the child. Say goodbye, explain what's happening, don't give them memories of their parent wasting away on a hospital bed.

 

[kvsvenky100]

Idk. But I think they are already allowed aren't they? What stops them from entering the site?

Children are not allowed on SaSu. If the moderators find any children they are banned as far as I know.

 

[qw3rty259]

Children are not allowed on SaSu. If the moderators find any children they are banned as far as I know.

There're smart ones, I'm sure