Discussion Should parents have the right to die?

[Ash]

There was a case in the UK just recently where a woman with a terminal illness admitted to administering a lethal dose to her child many years ago who who also terminally ill and in severe pain. She died not long after her admission so the case was never tested legally. She and the child had my utter sympathy and that certainly seemed to be the public reaction of the surviving family.

The question being asked is very black and white and I'm sorry but it really is not that simple. It never will be. Even if you strip away every emotion, it still won't be. And here's the biggest grey problem. There isn't a right answer. It's down to individual choice. Remember that? I keep banging on about it. At the end of the day, we all have to make a rational, informed decision. Who has the capacity to make that decision? That depends on individual circumstances.

It's all about the grey areas. We can debate this for as long as we like, that will never change.

 

[sugarb]

So what if it is natural? Humans have the intellect to think rationally. There are also millions and millions of people who are not grateful for the life they have. Why should they be forced to suffer just because "good lives" are being created?

It's different for parents though, they chose to make kids who will be dependent on them. And then suicidal parents want to run away from a responsibility that they created for themselves.

To them it IS rational. Their experiences are different from ours. Happy, healthy people do not think like suicidal antinatalists. If anything, I imagine they're thinking "being alive is awesome and society/my family/my partner/culture/millions of years of instinct are all telling me to have kids so what's the harm?". Unhappy people often have similar logic, minus the "being alive is awesome" part.

You're mistaking misery and desperation for cruelty and negligence. They want to die, not dump their children on the street.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

No, they shouldn't. They created somebody who is dependent on them hence they should live to raise up their child. It should be their responsibility to

 

[SilentSadness]

They did something very bad but they shouldn't have their rights taken away as a result. At least this way they can't cause any more harm. But they should sort out the living situation before they die.

 

[UKscotty]

Yes I think they morally lose their right to CTB until the child is self sufficient.

 

[Not Sure]

What if the child(ren) are no longer living with them? In my case, I have my kids (I do love, ages 3 and 5) right now next to me watching cartoons but on saturday they will go with my stbx wife at her folks place some miles away and I don't know when I'll get the chance to see them again.

Really don't want to go through the divorce, would rather widow her. In case I do survive the divorce, I would get only visitation rights, some weekends here and there and a few days on holidays, as the mother gets everything: the kids, 1/3 of my income, my dignity, etc....

P.S. Was suicidal last year also and they were living full time with both of us, so I guess... it's better now?

 

[suffering_mo_7]

What about in the case where the parent is living with an unbelievable amount of physical suffering, plus mental? Like unbelievable amount? Tons of painful neurological, and rare symptoms....caused by a medical infusion. I have many children, still several in the home. I love my children but don't even know who I am anymore. My personality changed. I'm suffering immensely and there's no peace here, zero quality of life. We created a home to raise and protect them and love them but I'm a mere months, it's all falling apart. My marriage is a wreck. I can't even hardly be around them all. Because of our faith, they all say suicide is not an option and I will give to hell and traumatizr them for life but I don't know how to live like this.

I don't want to give details of my sufferings too much because I don't want them searchable but they are extreme.

 

[kvsvenky100]

What about in the case where the parent is living with an unbelievable amount of physical suffering, plus mental? Like unbelievable amount? Tons of painful neurological, and rare symptoms....caused by a medical infusion. I have many children, still several in the home. I love my children but don't even know who I am anymore. My personality changed. I'm suffering immensely and there's no peace here, zero quality of life. We created a home to raise and protect them and love them but I'm a mere months, it's all falling apart. My marriage is a wreck. I can't even hardly be around them all. Because of our faith, they all say suicide is not an option and I will give to hell and traumatizr them for life but I don't know how to live like this.

I don't want to give details of my sufferings too much because I don't want them searchable but they are extreme.

I mean, parents should have thought about that before shitting out babies.

 

[suffering_mo_7]

I mean, parents should have thought about that before shitting out babies.

Really? Because anyone could have ever expected this? What I am living with is science fiction stuff that could not have been imagined. Wow, you are pretty callous.

 

[wounded_warrior]

This thread has been very helpful. I have a 9 month old so I have committed to staying alive until he is 18, ideally 21. I tried to CTB before he was conceived and damn I wish that had worked. My wife got pregnant during a time when I was functional, though not well.

No matter how bad it gets I think having some sort of a dad is better than no dad. It's kind of not about me anymore I guess.

 

[enduringwinter]

Personally I think they do. Their children might suffer and resent them but that's irrelevant, isn't it? If you get down to it, should spouses and children who are caretakers of their families, or people who are doctors, criminals etc etc have the right to ctb? Too many circumstances to moralise. I am a believer of you being your own person before anything else.

 

[drag201]

I don't think there is a right to live or die. Every situation is different, and we can't judge someone's motives like that. Even though i agree it's irresponsible for a parent to leave a child like that, especially if the child is very young and/or has no one else to look after them, if it gets to that point where a parent (especially) decides to put their own peace above anything and everything else then there must be reasons. Plus, if someone is so mentally unstable like this they will most likely not make a very good parent, i can speak from experience.
But then again, this is VERY subjective. No ones situation is the same

 

[betternever2havbeen]

To them it IS rational. Their experiences are different from ours. Happy, healthy people do not think like suicidal antinatalists. If anything, I imagine they're thinking "being alive is awesome and society/my family/my partner/culture/millions of years of instinct are all telling me to have kids so what's the harm?". Unhappy people often have similar logic, minus the "being alive is awesome" part.

You're mistaking misery and desperation for cruelty and negligence. They want to die, not dump their children on the street.

If they're happy and being alive is awesome then WTF are they thinking about CTB for? These people make no sense to me, if I'm really supposed to believe they were once happy and suddenly something happened to make them suicidal then they owe it to their kids to get through it. People like that (who used to be happy) will always end up being happy again, it's their default (barring horrific physical pain) so whether it takes 6 months or two years to get out of being suicidal, just wait it out. ALL these parents would expect their kids to!

 

[IamSamIam]

It's an interesting discussion. I mean, I think everyone has a right to die. I am suicidal, but I wasn't that way when I had my kids. It's not like 19 years ago I should have predicted that my mental health would take a nose dive. When I am suicidal, I think that my kids would be better off without me-- meaning if I die, they don't have me to mess them up more. Do I want them to suffer-- never! Do I want them sad-- no! But rational thought is not often fully there with dark thoughts.

Also, I have never blamed my parents for bringing me on this earth. In fact, I think of how much I messed up-- not them. It just seems backwards to say that parents didn't ask you for consent to be brought on this earth, and now we must screw our parents and make them stick around (if they are suicidal) because we have poor mental health. That is what the argument comes across to me as sounding like. More of a "screw them" kind of attitude.

 

[heavyeyes]

I agree wholeheartedly.

The father of a good friend of mine committed suicide when he was a small child. That messed him up a lot.

 

[sugarb]

If they're happy and being alive is awesome then WTF are they thinking about CTB for? These people make no sense to me, if I'm really supposed to believe they were once happy and suddenly something happened to make them suicidal then they owe it to their kids to get through it. People like that (who used to be happy) will always end up being happy again, it's their default (barring horrific physical pain) so whether it takes 6 months or two years to get out of being suicidal, just wait it out. ALL these parents would expect their kids to!

They aren't currently happy. I said that they likely were happy when they had children, or that they were pressured by society, instinct, family, their partner, etc.

Additionally, not all parents live happy lives. If you believe everyone who's unhappy is a hopeless antinatalist thinking "I must never bring children into this nightmarish world", you're wrong. And there're other factors, as well- abortion bans in some parts of the US make parenthood a lot less of a choice, for one.

Do you seriously believe that just because someone was happy once in their life they're certain to end up happy again? That's ridiculous even if we're ignoring crippling pain. What about chronic loneliness? General dissatisfaction? Severe poverty? Homelessness? Literally any other CTB motivation? There're plenty of issues other than chronic pain that last for more than six months and/or two years.

"But they wouldn't let their kids kill themselves!!!" isn't a valid argument. First- parents generally want their children to live, yes, but you don't actually know that any of the parents in this thread would deny their children the right to die once they're mature enough to make that decision. Second- that's literally just pointless spite.

Yes, obviously they should think it through for a while and see if it's a problem that'll go away. But if it's not, I don't see why they can't CTB. As long as the child has someone to take care of them, CTB with a family or close friends and CTB with a child are not that different.

If you think CTB with a family is fine and CTB with a child is not (again, assuming the child will be cared for)- why? Why is the damage done to siblings, parents, friends, spouses, families, and communities acceptable, while the damage done to one's biological child is not?

You could say it's because more damage is done if it's one's child, but that's entirely subjective and not necessarily true. There are plenty of people broken by a sibling's suicide, and plenty of parents destroyed by a child's. Why is it any different for a child to lose their parent?

 

[kvsvenky100]

It's an interesting discussion. I mean, I think everyone has a right to die. I am suicidal, but I wasn't that way when I had my kids. It's not like 19 years ago I should have predicted that my mental health would take a nose dive. When I am suicidal, I think that my kids would be better off without me-- meaning if I die, they don't have me to mess them up more. Do I want them to suffer-- never! Do I want them sad-- no! But rational thought is not often fully there with dark thoughts.

Also, I have never blamed my parents for bringing me on this earth. In fact, I think of how much I messed up-- not them. It just seems backwards to say that parents didn't ask you for consent to be brought on this earth, and now we must screw our parents and make them stick around (if they are suicidal) because we have poor mental health. That is what the argument comes across to me as sounding like. More of a "screw them" kind of attitude.

Actions have consequences though. You can't just drag someone to suffer without consent and then run away from your responsibilities.

They aren't currently happy. I said that they likely were happy when they had children, or that they were pressured by society, instinct, family, their partner, etc.

Additionally, not all parents live happy lives. If you believe everyone who's unhappy is a hopeless antinatalist thinking "I must never bring children into this nightmarish world", you're wrong. And there're other factors, as well- abortion bans in some parts of the US make parenthood a lot less of a choice, for one.

Do you seriously believe that just because someone was happy once in their life they're certain to end up happy again? That's ridiculous even if we're ignoring crippling pain. What about chronic loneliness? General dissatisfaction? Severe poverty? Homelessness? Literally any other CTB motivation? There're plenty of issues other than chronic pain that last for more than six months and/or two years.

"But they wouldn't let their kids kill themselves!!!" isn't a valid argument. First- parents generally want their children to live, yes, but you don't actually know that any of the parents in this thread would deny their children the right to die once they're mature enough to make that decision. Second- that's literally just pointless spite.

Yes, obviously they should think it through for a while and see if it's a problem that'll go away. But if it's not, I don't see why they can't CTB. As long as the child has someone to take care of them, CTB with a family or close friends and CTB with a child are not that different.

If you think CTB with a family is fine and CTB with a child is not (again, assuming the child will be cared for)- why? Why is the damage done to siblings, parents, friends, spouses, families, and communities acceptable, while the damage done to one's biological child is not?

You could say it's because more damage is done if it's one's child, but that's entirely subjective and not necessarily true. There are plenty of people broken by a sibling's suicide, and plenty of parents destroyed by a child's. Why is it any different for a child to lose their parent?

It's different when it's a parent and a child because the parent voluntarily choose that responsibility. We didn't do that to our friends, siblings or whatever.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

Yes, obviously they should think it through for a while and see if it's a problem that'll go away. But if it's not, I don't see why they can't CTB. As long as the child has someone to take care of them, CTB with a family or close friends and CTB with a child are not that different.

If you think CTB with a family is fine and CTB with a child is not (again, assuming the child will be cared for)- why? Why is the damage done to siblings, parents, friends, spouses, families, and communities acceptable, while the damage done to one's biological child is not?

You could say it's because more damage is done if it's one's child, but that's entirely subjective and not necessarily true. There are plenty of people broken by a sibling's suicide, and plenty of parents destroyed by a child's. Why is it any different for a child to lose their parent?

Not the person you responded to, but children are dependent on their parents for survival. Not only physically, but for their psychological development.

A sibling may love and cherish another sibling but they aren't usually dependent on them for survival. Same with parents, friends, etc.

It's not entirely different from a parent that walks out. It's abandonment, which is traumatic for a child

 

[Serial Experi Pain]

Anyone who wants to die after suffering from experiencing this shitty world has the right to making that decision for themselves. They didn't ask to be born, either. That's just my opinion. If people are going to do it, they're going to do it. It's not the place of anyone else to tell someone else not to do it.

 

[Darkover]

everyone should have the right to die in this world

 

[untothedepths]

controversial opinion but i would have rather my parents gave me up, killed me, or we all died. like, my parents were horribly abusive people who had NO remorse for anything they ever did, at least from to my knowledge. as horrible as it is to say, if they had killed themselves i would have went to foster care.

But not everyone is in my position, so i really dont know. if you arent abusive to your child, i dont think its right to then kill yourself. they need you, and leaving them puts them in a bad position. but if you are a massive POS then idc you're probably already a danger to your kids anyways

 

[sugarb]

Not the person you responded to, but children are dependent on their parents for survival. Not only physically, but for their psychological development.

A sibling may love and cherish another sibling but they aren't usually dependent on them for survival. Same with parents, friends, etc.

It's not entirely different from a parent that walks out. It's abandonment, which is traumatic for a child

Well yes, it's generally going to be as damaging or more damaging than for other family members.

The point is that it's morally questionable to deny parents the right to die for the sake of not psychologically harming their children while simultaneously saying there's nothing wrong with CTBing when it psychologically harms anyone else.

A personal example- I love them both, but I know how I'd feel if my dad committed suicide VS if my brother committed suicide. Even if we're talking <8 years old, I almost certainly would be worse off psychologically without my little brother than without my father. That said, I still wouldn't deny either of them the right to die.

It's different when it's a parent and a child because the parent voluntarily choose that responsibility. We didn't do that to our friends, siblings or whatever.

As I said, not all parents voluntarily choose that responsibility. Many are pressured or outright forced.

Even if they had children completely voluntarily, I don't think it's morally sound or even in the best interest of the child to force a suicidal and quite possibly mentally ill parent to live on beyond the minimum to ensure the child is taken care of.

 

[bluejelly]

I think every situation is personal. If a parent is abusive and neglectful then the child may suffer lifelong trauma from that - how can we measure that and say that's less trauma than losing their parent to suicide? Each child/parent relationship is different, there are so many factors at play that will affect how the child deals with either of those situations.

I don't think you can outright say you lose your right to die when you become a parent.

 

[lizzywizzy09]

It depends. Truthfully it might be better if more bad parents ctb and allowed their kids to be raised by better caregivers. Unpopular opinion maybe but I dgaf.

 

[Theresnoescape]

What if the child(ren) are no longer living with them? In my case, I have my kids (I do love, ages 3 and 5) right now next to me watching cartoons but on saturday they will go with my stbx wife at her folks place some miles away and I don't know when I'll get the chance to see them again.

Really don't want to go through the divorce, would rather widow her. In case I do survive the divorce, I would get only visitation rights, some weekends here and there and a few days on holidays, as the mother gets everything: the kids, 1/3 of my income, my dignity, etc....

P.S. Was suicidal last year also and they were living full time with both of us, so I guess... it's better now?

Hi, very similar situation. We're not married, but have been together for 24 years. My youngest of three is now 13, and it's only him I'm sticking around for. He is brilliant, and it makes it all so much harder.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

Well yes, it's generally going to be as damaging or more damaging than for other family members.

The point is that it's morally questionable to deny parents the right to die for the sake of not psychologically harming their children while simultaneously saying there's nothing wrong with CTBing when it psychologically harms anyone else.

A personal example- I love them both, but I know how I'd feel if my dad committed suicide VS if my brother committed suicide. Even if we're talking <8 years old, I almost certainly would be worse off psychologically without my little brother than without my father. That said, I still wouldn't deny either of them the right to die.

It's definitely a difficult situation all around. Really the only way to prevent the situation in the first place is for people to take having children very seriously, consider whether they are fit to be a parent, and even then it's not always a choice, like you said.

 

[sugarb]

It's definitely a difficult situation all around. Really the only way to prevent the situation in the first place is for people to take having children very seriously, consider whether they are fit to be a parent, and even then it's not always a choice, like you said.

Yeah. I'm very glad I don't have to deal with that moral dilemma

 

[betternever2havbeen]

They aren't currently happy. I said that they likely were happy when they had children, or that they were pressured by society, instinct, family, their partner, etc.

And I thought having kids made people happy...

Do you seriously believe that just because someone was happy once in their life they're certain to end up happy again? That's ridiculous even if we're ignoring crippling pain. What about chronic loneliness? General dissatisfaction? Severe poverty? Homelessness? Literally any other CTB motivation? There're plenty of issues other than chronic pain that last for more than six months and/or two years.

For the vast majority yes, and it's a pity parents never thought of all those issues until AFTER they've had kids.

"But they wouldn't let their kids kill themselves!!!" isn't a valid argument. First- parents generally want their children to live, yes, but you don't actually know that any of the parents in this thread would deny their children the right to die once they're mature enough to make that decision. Second- that's literally just pointless spite.

It's not spiteful it's pointing out that parents who want to CTB but would do everything to stop their kids doing the same thing are hypocrites.

Yes, obviously they should think it through for a while and see if it's a problem that'll go away. But if it's not, I don't see why they can't CTB. As long as the child has someone to take care of them, CTB with a family or close friends and CTB with a child are not that different.

Because they have inflicted life on their kids and then turned around and gone "I can't cope with life so I'm outta here" don't force life onto someone else when you can't even cope with it yourself.

If you think CTB with a family is fine and CTB with a child is not (again, assuming the child will be cared for)- why? Why is the damage done to siblings, parents, friends, spouses, families, and communities acceptable, while the damage done to one's biological child is not?

You could say it's because more damage is done if it's one's child, but that's entirely subjective and not necessarily true. There are plenty of people broken by a sibling's suicide, and plenty of parents destroyed by a child's. Why is it any different for a child to lose their parent?

Because parents have an obligation to the children they brought into the world, they created them. I don't think CTB in general is "fine" we all know we're going to hurt people, but if it's a last resort and someone doesn't have dependents then it's their choice. It's far worse for a parent to do that to their child. And it's the height of hypocrisy to force someone to be born and then dump them in the world alone to deal with a life you couldn't even deal with PLUS added grief on top.

 

[sugarb]

And I thought having kids made people happy...


For the vast majority yes, and it's a pity parents never thought of all those issues until AFTER they've had kids.


It's not spiteful it's pointing out that parents who want to CTB but would do everything to stop their kids doing the same thing are hypocrites.


Because they have inflicted life on their kids and then turned around and gone "I can't cope with life so I'm outta here" don't force life onto someone else when you can't even cope with it yourself.


Because parents have an obligation to the children they brought into the world, they created them. I don't think CTB in general is "fine" we all know we're going to hurt people, but if it's a last resort and someone doesn't have dependents then it's their choice. It's far worse for a parent to do that to their child. And it's the height of hypocrisy to force someone to be born and then dump them in the world alone to deal with a life you couldn't even deal with PLUS added grief on top.

Sometimes it does. Other times not. Sometimes it's not enough to make people want to stick around. What's your point?

Do you have any kind of evidence to support the assertion that the "vast majority" of people who're suicidal will just get over it and live happy lives eventually?

Yes, it is a pity. It's horrible and unfortunate that the decision to CTB gets complicated like that and that more people's lives are negatively affected. I still don't think "screw you, should've realized you wanted to kill yourself sooner!" is a reasonable or ethical response.

I imagine just as many children would do anything to stop their parents from CTBing, so it's not so much hypocrisy as it is a mutual "I can but you shouldn't" attitude. And even if it is hypocritical, denying someone the right to die for no reason other than them hypocritically denying others that right is by definition spiteful. It's just "you did something bad, so you should get the same bad thing done to you". That's childish.

Not to mention that, again, that isn't a universal stance. You actually haven't the foggiest idea if every suicidal parent would deny their children that right once they're of age or not, you're just assuming as much. Likewise not every child would deny their parents CTBing.

Obviously you shouldn't "inflict life" on others when you can't cope with it, but at one point they COULD and thought for whatever reason having children would be good. Try putting yourself into a parent's shoes for a bit, dude.

At the end of the day, you're arguing to restrict someone's right to die and I can never agree with that.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Sometimes it does. Other times not. Sometimes it's not enough to make people want to stick around. What's your point?

I'm sure knowing that makes their kids feel just great.

Do you have any kind of evidence to support the assertion that the "vast majority" of people who're suicidal will just get over it and live happy lives eventually?

Surely it stands to reason that if you used to enjoy life, enough to make someone else go through it you will again at some point. How many parents who CTB or want to are homeless or any of the other things you mentioned? Parents by definition are people who think life is "worth it"-unless they're evil and have kids just to inflict something that they know is bad on them.

I imagine just as many children would do anything to stop their parents from CTBing, so it's not so much hypocrisy as it is a mutual "I can but you shouldn't" attitude. And even if it is hypocritical, denying someone the right to die for no reason other than them hypocritically denying others that right is by definition spiteful. It's just "you did something bad, so you should get the same bad thing done to you". That's childish.

Oh so different rules for parents now there's a surprise LOL.

Obviously you shouldn't "inflict life" on others when you can't cope with it, but at one point they COULD and thought for whatever reason having children would be good. Try putting yourself into a parent's shoes for a bit, dude.

No thanks, society already panders to parents enough. That's why they're always so shocked and defensive when people challenge them instead of gushing all over them and going "wow you have 5 kids, you're so incredible" They should have their actions challenged more, creating life is serious, they don't take it seriously enough, it isn't like buying a new car. It's always the same "Oh how was I supposed to know my husband would leave me with 4 kids" blah blah. "How was I to know my kids would have mental health problems" then they expect loads of sympathy when they brushed all this off when they had kids. Try putting yourself in your child's shoes for once!

Not to mention that, again, that isn't a universal stance. You actually haven't the foggiest idea if every suicidal parent would deny their children that right once they're of age or not, you're just assuming as much. Likewise not every child would deny their parents CTBing.

Well there was a thread on here a couple weeks ago about how parents should respect their (adult) child's decision and the general consensus was "you're absolutely crazy if you think that'd ever remotely happen", some posts from parents themselves, so that's quite a good indication.

At the end of the day, you're arguing to restrict someone's right to die and I can never agree with that.

I'm not they can do what they want, I just think it's the height of selfishness that's all. But maybe the kids will get adopted by people who are actually prepared to stick around for them