Selfish to leave child behind ?

[Sunshine]

Oh man I'm going to love this. If you really want me to make the point I've been wanted to make this whole time, I will be happy to oblige. First of all, I'm glad you agree that the degree of vulnerability is a sliding scale spectrum. That means, brother, that you are also not exempt from this vulnerability. Since you also agree that stress is the catalyst, I'd like you to acknowledge that some people have it more than others. I am willing to bet that you, sir, have some stress in your life, but nearly as much as the person you insulted with your post. I think you have the LUXURY of looking down on people like this. Why? Because they are under more stress? Now come on, that's not nearly fair.
Second point. This website is a safe haven for people who are depressed, suicidal, or just want to help those who are. These people are the nicest people I have ever met on the internet. Because they know how hard life can be, they have a very developed sense of sympathy and empathy. When you walk the line between life and death, the small stuff seems to matter less. Now, I'm not going to assume that you're a completely entitled asshole based on one post, but I would like to remind you that if you aren't going to fit the mission of this website, I don't think you belong here. Stay or go, I don't care, but if you continue to be a toxic personality, as you can tell from the responses of others, you are not going to be met with open arms.

So basically what you want is a echo chamber hugbox where no one is allowed to speak up or voice their opinion if it's not 100% supportive and coddling the person? In my opinion, it is more respectful to say your honest thoughts instead of bending over just to be nice especially if the person asked.

Also, the stress "activating" the mental illness thing happened long ago for me and them. We aren't developing children or teenager.

 

[SoIntoYou]

So basically what you want is a echo chamber hugbox where no one is allowed to speak up or voice their opinion if it's not 100% supportive and coddling the person? In my opinion, it is more respectful to say your honest thoughts instead of bending over just to be nice especially if the person asked.

Also, the stress "activating" the mental illness thing happened long ago for me and them. We aren't developing children or teenager.

Hey friend, I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. This website has a specific goal in mind. You wouldn't go on the nsfw subreddit and start posting nudes of Donald Trump, right? If I wanted an echo chamber hugbox, I would have told you leave and never come back. Did I say that?
Look, I understand your frustration with aberrant behavior in society, but keep your criticism just as general as society itself. I know you tried to do just that, but you 100% insulted and probably hurt someone who is obviously vulnerable. Choose you words better.

 

[Throwawaysoul]

For me no. My kid is almost an adult. My child would get everything before I have a chance to waste it all. My kid won't have to deal with my instability and mental illness any longer. At this point my kid is probably hoping I do it soon.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I haven't seen @Sunshine post much, at least nothing that's drawn my attention like this, so I looked at their post history, wondering if they were a troll.

It seems the only time this member goes on the offensive is when another member who has kids is suicidal. This is the third thread where such a confrontation has taken place, and in fact I did engage the first time, when I'd only been on the forum a week.

@Sunshine, when something troubles me about another's actions, I try to imagine what could be behind them so I can step out of my response. What I imagined about you is that you had one or more parents with mental illness who did not think through having you, and perhaps even one of them suicided. I could of course be wrong. It just seems important that you only go on the offensive when someone is in pain and vulnerably sharing when they're a parent of a child and contemplating suicide. It seems like your stance is more important than the person suffering. It can't be undone that they have a child, so I don't understand how beating them up for it can bring any resolution, except perhaps to make you feel better by condemning them -- kind of like the man who locked me out on a fire escape because I was smoking, and when I confronted him about the aggression, he wouldn't back down from it and called me stupid...because his mother died from lung cancer because of smoking. It wasn't me he wanted to hurt but the projection of her that I represented as a smoker. He had no power to stop her, to save her, or to save himself from losing her. Smelling my smoke triggered him, and attacking me made him feel powerful and very, very right. I have so much compassion for that! But, I also won't put up with aggression and condemnation. I wouldn't expect anyone to put up with it from me, either.

Putting children into this world is probably one (if not THE) most serious thing one can do. Sorry, but I have not a lot of compassion for people who thoughtlessly had babies without putting some very serious thought into it for many years....

I don't want to kick you when you're down and I don't know your specific circumstances, but I still stand by this opinion in a general sense. Parents should not have children if they have a history of depression and suicidal ideation. They will only perpetuate the cycle of depression to the next generation. I will never have children because of that reason.

 

[Deafsn0w]

That's the reason I don't plan to have kids. I would feel horribly bad if I leave my kids behind.

 

[Sunshine]

I haven't seen @Sunshine post much, at least nothing that's drawn my attention like this, so I looked at their post history, wondering if they were a troll.

It seems the only time this member goes on the offensive is when another member who has kids is suicidal. This is the third thread where such a confrontation has taken place, and in fact I did engage the first time, when I'd only been on the forum a week.

@Sunshine, when something troubles me about another's actions, I try to imagine what could be behind them so I can step out of my response. What I imagined about you is that you had one or more parents with mental illness who did not think through having you, and perhaps even one of them suicided. I could of course be wrong. It just seems important that you only go on the offensive when someone is in pain and vulnerably sharing when they're a parent of a child and contemplating suicide. It seems like your stance is more important than the person suffering. It can't be undone that they have a child, so I don't understand how beating them up for it can bring any resolution, except perhaps to make you feel better by condemning them -- kind of like the man who locked me out on a fire escape because I was smoking, and when I confronted him about the aggression, he wouldn't back down from it and called me stupid...because his mother died from lung cancer because of smoking. It wasn't me he wanted to hurt but the projection of her that I represented as a smoker. He had no power to stop her, to save her, or to save himself from losing her. Smelling my smoke triggered him, and attacking me made him feel powerful and very, very right. I have so much compassion for that! But, I also won't put up with aggression and condemnation. I wouldn't expect anyone to put up with it from me, either.

Why wouldn't I voice my opinion on such an important topic? It's the most extreme and life-altering decision anyone can make, aside from suicide itself. Having a voice and opinion doesn't mean you're a troll. I would do it over and over again. Just like I want other people to tell me their TRUE opinions, I also believe in saying how I feel.

I don't want an echo chamber hugbox where everyone just rubs eachothers back and silences their truth so no one gets offended. And there's still educational work to do because apparently even many members here are unaware about the heredity of depression, bipolar and so on.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Why wouldn't I voice my opinion on such an important topic? It's the most extreme and life-altering decision anyone can make, aside from suicide itself. Having a voice and opinion doesn't mean you're a troll. I would do it over and over again. Just like I want other people to tell me their TRUE opinions, I also believe in saying how I feel.

I don't want an echo chamber hugbox where everyone just rubs eachothers back and silences their truth so no one gets offended. And there's still educational work to do because apparently even many members here are unaware about the heredity of depression, bipolar and so on.

Okay, but OP was asking for advice/opportunity about what to DO, not what's already been done and cannot be undone. You condemned for a choice she already made and cannot undo.

I don't do hugboxes. I'm very direct and honest, far more than gentle. I also recognize there's a difference between honesty that serves a purpose and honesty that goes for the heart to hurt someone, as a weapon.

A woman asks, "Should I go out in this skirt?"

A friend says with directness and honesty, "I think you're going to feel embarrassed, I can see the cellulite. What else have you got to wear?"

A frienemy says, "It highlights every bulge. But you're the one who shoves pizza and hamburgers in her face every day. You don't think before you eat, and now you're paying for it by looking ridiculous."


That's the last I'll say on this, even if you respond. I've tried to use humor, I've tried to use reason, and I move on with no rancor toward you. I wish you well.

 

[Sunshine]

Okay, but OP was asking for advice/opportunity about what to DO, not what's already been done and cannot be undone. You condemned for a choice she already made and cannot undo.

I don't do hugboxes. I'm very direct and honest, far more than gentle. I also recognize there's a difference between honesty that serves a purpose and honesty that goes for the heart to hurt someone, as a weapon.

A woman asks, "Should I go out in this skirt?"

A friend says with directness and honesty, "I think you're going to feel embarrassed, I can see the cellulite. What else have you got to wear?"

A frienemy says, "It highlights every bulge. But you're the one who shoves pizza and hamburgers in her face every day. You don't think before you eat, and now you're paying for it by looking ridiculous."


That's the last I'll say on this, even if you respond. I've tried to use humor, I've tried to use reason, and I move on with no rancor toward you. I wish you well.

She asked if it's selfish. I gave an answer. Don't know how this is hard to understand.

 

[muffin222]

That's tough. Is it selfish in some sense? Perhaps. Is it wrong? I don't necessarily think so. It's your choice, your life. The incontrovertible truth is that your child didn't choose to be born. But, you didn't choose to be born either. There is no satisfying answer to this dilemma

 

[XYZ]

No, the mental illness being much less common if mentally ill people (including myself) would stop breeding is a fact. Because it's heritable and has been ...

No, this is incorrect. This is not how genes work.

Having an inherited genetic predisposition to mental illness does not guarantee you will get sick. Genes and environmental factors together raise the risk, but are by no means certain to cause illness.

Furthermore a parent who has genetic mutations which cause mental illness does not necessarily pass down these mutations to his/her children.

So a person who carries genetic mutations might
a) never get sick
b) not pass down the genes

That person could therefore have a child and neither ruin his/her life due to mental illness, nor due to passing down deffective genes.

 

[Sunshine]

No, this is incorrect. This is not how genes work.

Having an inherited genetic predisposition to mental illness does not guarantee you will get sick. Genes and environmental factors together raise the risk, but are by no means certain to cause illness.

Furthermore a parent who has genetic mutations which cause mental illness does not necessarily pass down these mutations to his/her children.

So a person who carries genetic mutations might
a) never get sick
b) not pass down the genes

That person could therefore have a child and neither ruin his/her life due to mental illness, nor due to passing down deffective genes.

Wrong.

Genetic predisposition to mental illness does not guarantee you will get sick but it makes it much more likely. So logically speaking if people who have a "much higher likelihood to get mentally ill" don't even exist anymore, then there will be far less mental illness around. Because then only people who are more robust towards mental illness are alive, which means... yes some people will develop mental illness, but not as much anymore.

"Depression is about 40-50% genetic on average. We know this from thousands of twin studies based on tens of thousands of people from all around the world.
Here's the basic idea: if one person has depression, the chance of an identical twin raised in a completely different environment also having depression is about 40-50%."

That's almost HALF of all depressed people which is a huge amount. Other illnesses are even more heritable like schizophrenia ( estimated 79% heritability ) or bipolar (60 to 80) and these people unfortunately appear a lot in suicide statistics.

 

[XYZ]

Wrong.

Genetic predisposition to mental illness does not guarantee you will get sick but it makes it much more likely. So logically speaking if people who have a "much higher likelihood to get mentally ill" don't even exist anymore, then there will be far less mental illness around. Because then only people who are more robust towards mental illness are alive, which means... yes some people will develop mental illness, but not as much anymore.

"Depression is about 40-50% genetic on average. We know this from thousands of twin studies based on tens of thousands of people from all around the world.
Here's the basic idea: if one person has depression, the chance of an identical twin raised in a completely different environment also having depression is about 40-50%."

That's almost HALF of all depressed people which is a huge amount. Other illnesses are even more heritable like schizophrenia ( estimated 79% heritability ) or bipolar (60 to 80) and these people unfortunately appear a lot in suicide statistics.

Your statistics reinforce what I just wrote: genetic mutations are no guarantee for illness, they only raise the risk.

Anyway, I understand now that what you are arguing for is that all people with genetic mutations should stop having children, irrespective of the fact that they might never develop mental illnesses nor pass down the genes.

There's a name for that ideology but I will not infect this thread by mentioning it.

(My apologizes to the OP for derailing the thread. Good night everyone.)

 

[GreenTree]

I really wish mentally ill people would stop having children. Most psychiatric disorders are highly heritable, including depression. This kind of shit just keeps the cycle of suffering alive.

I really wish people had a crystal ball. You think when people plan children they know there going to have a mental illness in the future. NO. I was mentally healthy when I planned my child. If I knew I was going to have a mental illness 5 years later I wouldn't have planned her. So stop assuming everyone is ill when they plan children.

 

[Sunshine]

Your statistics reinforce what I just wrote: genetic mutations are no guarantee for illness, they only raise the risk.

Anyway, I understand now that what you are arguing for is that all people with genetic mutations should stop having children, irrespective of the fact that they might never develop mental illnesses nor pass down the genes.

There's a name for that ideology but I will not infect this thread by mentioning it.

(My apologizes to the OP for derailing the thread. Good night everyone.)

Like, do you understand it or not? If 40-90% of a group (in this case, the mentally ill) have be found to carry the genetic risk that means that most people turn out mentally ill because of their genetics. Meaning if that was removed from the pool, logically, the amount of mentally ill people altogether would be much smaller.

I really wish people had a crystal ball. You think when people plan children they know there going to have a mental illness in the future. NO. I was mentally healthy when I planned my child. If I knew I was going to have a mental illness 5 years later I wouldn't have planned her. So stop assuming everyone is ill when they plan children.

Oh please, as if MOST people who end up suicidal or suffer from severe mental illness don't experience that before they are older. Average is 24 and below.

 

[GreenTree]

Like, do you understand it or not? If 40-90% of a group (in this case, the mentally ill) have be found to carry the genetic risk that means that most people turn out mentally ill because of their genetics. Meaning if that was removed from the pool, logically, the amount of mentally ill people altogether would be much smaller.


Oh please, as if MOST people who end up suicidal or suffer from severe mental illness don't experience that before they are older. Average is 24 and below.

I'm speaking from my experience. I was fine when planning children. Now I'm ill I wouldn't plan any. So you reckon most people are ill and decide to have children.

 

[AvaAdore]

I smile and laugh with her as much as possible, she never questions my love for her or wants for anything , I am just worn completely down . We are together always except when I am at work . I live my entire life for her And have since the day she was born. It has always been just her and I and it will always be that way I just am so confused as to how I get this feeling to stop . All these years I have been able to make it go away and it just won't now .

Is there anybody that can watch her for you for awhile?

 

[rhiino]

@Sunshine
While I am also an antinatalist and think that your facts are correct the OP of this thread never asked about anybody's opinion on getting kids. They asked about a situation where there already is a child. I bet most people here wouldn't want to have kids anyway, so your posts do not help much in this context.

 

[Toobrokentofix]

I absolutely get it. Having children really complicates wanting to terminate your existence! Last week I was so torn. My kids went away with their dad and I was home alone and longing to ctb. It was the hardest week to manage. I was convinced it would be that week. Had my map to Beachy head downloaded and a disposable bbq in the boot in case I lost courage about the urge to jump... yet I'm still here. Might have had a bit of a slip up one night when I drank a bottle of codeine to make my head stop, but I know it is that part of me that is connected to my children that couldn't do it. I just kept imagining how hurt and abandoned they'd feel and who would love them as much as I do?? Now I am reluctantly having to reassess if maybe I could try for another couple of months and find a way to endure this hell. Maybe find a way to ctb that would appear accidental to ease up the sense of not being enough for my mother to stay alive. Omg. It's heartbreaking to be in this position. Sending my warmest thoughts and best wishes to you.

 

[AvaAdore]

It's not off topic. This is a huge issue that caused a lot of us to even show up here. People with mental illness making the choice to have children, and even now there's hardly no stigma about it. Everyone is encougared to have kids. And then it often ends up like this. Not only are people like us likely to pass on genetics for our mental illnesses, but ALSO are we likely to stress the child in some way (which also increases the % for mental illness, yet again) with our depression or potential suicide.

OP asked if it is selfish. And yeah, it very much is. Hard pill to swallow but nothing but facts.

Recovery or management is possible.

 

[Sunshine]

I'm speaking from my experience. I was fine when planning children. Now I'm ill I wouldn't plan any. So you reckon most people are ill and decide to have children.

Ok, and? Obviously you don't count then. But what happened to you anyway? What kind of mental disorder did you develop as you were only older?

Recovery or management is possible.

It is possible but why burden the next generation with your "curse" again just because you want some kids. It's selfish. I guess we can only hope that in the future scientists will able to cure all of our issues no matter what.

 

[GreenTree]

Your confusing. Stop thinking you know everything. Its painfull enough having children when deciding to commit suicide. I'm saying when planning children we don't know what debilitating illness are too come.

 

[Sunshine]

Your confusing. Stop thinking you know everything. Its painfull enough having children when deciding to commit suicide. I'm saying when planning children we don't know what debilitating illness are too come.

Ok, and I'm telling you that most people develop a mental illness before being very mature. 24 and below. So obviously, and I even included that, it wouldn't apply to people who are randomly struck by it out of nowhere while they are already old(er)...

 

[AvaAdore]

So basically what you want is a echo chamber hugbox where no one is allowed to speak up or voice their opinion if it's not 100% supportive and coddling the person? In my opinion, it is more respectful to say your honest thoughts instead of bending over just to be nice especially if the person asked.

Also, the stress "activating" the mental illness thing happened long ago for me and them. We aren't developing children or teenager.

In this thread the OP didn't ask for an opinion on if she should have never had a child.

 

[DunnoWhyButYeah]

I have four young children. I want to ctb, but so far they are the main reason I'm still here. My wife is disabled and wouldn't be able to take care of them by herself. It's hard to leave when people here are depending on you. I can't tell you what to do, but so far I have stayed for my children. I'm sorry you're hurting so much. I'm hurting too.

I'm in the same situation as you and I know what you are talking about, it's difficult... I have a husband and four children. I want to ctb, but I can't yet.

 

[Sunshine]

In this thread the OP didn't ask for an opinion on if she should have never had a child.

Nope, but they talked about their struggle being a parent and asked if it would be selfish, which directly ties into mental illness and having children.

 

[Wayfaerer]

If you have a child, you must do everything possible you can to stay. Have you considered professional help? Even if you have to continue life as a drugged out zombie, that is better for your daughter than killing yourself. That act would haunt her for the rest of her life.

 

[Cashewmilk]

I truly feel terrible for you. But I wanted to say something to other suicidal women who really want to have kids, and tell them to read your story. Clearly it's not enough and willingly bringing a child into the situation means you should stick with it, imo. I can sort of relate but I'm not a mom, I have pets and family who depend on me... a rescue cat who's so in love with me that he's almost been hit by cars following me, it's like he goes into a trance when he sees me, he'll follow me everywhere when I meet him outside. He's only 4 years old so waiting for his lifespan to play out is out of the question. I couldn't imagine what he'd do if I was gone, he'd probably become depressed. I was hoping my sisters and mom would be enough for him, I'm working on getting him more attached to everyone else and not just me... I don't know but it's a horrible feeling knowing you can't leave a loved one behind. And a child like yours, I can't imagine what you're going through.

 

[checkouttime]

just little observation............ I didn't notice the OP saying they had a child whilst suffering from mental illness. I guess it's not possible to have children and then suffer from mental illness, right?????? Are you meant to just ASSUME things and then write negative comments????

Im new to the whole how to act and behave lark on the internet stuff

 

[lighthousekeeper]

Hmmm, my mother divorced my dad when I was young due to delusions which eventually began to include me, she began to hate me & my dad was suicidal & I'm very glad he didn't do it, if he had done it I would have been left with her & she likely never would have gotten help.

 

[Nature_is_God]

All this anti-natalist talk is stupid here. I'm an anti-natalist and I'm saddened by procreation, but this is a suicide forum. Having a child may be morally bad but isn't chastising someone, who is suffering , for his/her irreversible actions, just as bad too?