Discussion Rich people who kill themselves goes against the platitudes for depression

[EricRoche]

That's what I think anway. If someone is has struggled in life, worked hard and built themeselves up financially and socially along with having a busy productive day in the office and in the gym, imagine the reaction from others when they kill themselves.

"Oh he was depressed and just needed to see a therapist/exercise/eat healthilty''

What if you do all that and still feel like dying because society is just a bunch of B.S.? I'm really amazed that people claim that depression in most cases is a chemical imbalance deep in the brain yet think that exercise will help with it and eventually you'll "feel happy again and never return to depression".If that's the cases then shouldn't it be permanent and hardly changing? It would be foolish for someone to assume that with brain disorders likeschizophrenia and extreme bipolar disorder you can try and eventually it won't be there so why is it the same for depression?

 

[Tiburcio]

You can't imagine how tired I'm of hearing "you need to do exercise" or "you need to keep a healthy lifestyle"...

Pieces of shit...

 

[anna]

You can't imagine how tired I'm of hearing "you need to do exercise" or "you need to keep a healthy lifestyle"...

Pieces of shit...

I think the one I hate the most is: "You have to go out and relate"

 

[Tiburcio]

I think the one I hate the most is: "You have to go out and relate"

That one is horrible too

 

[I_Am_Trashman]

I was going to the gym, school and working when I made my 1st attempt.

Was on meds and in therapy when I made my 2nd attempt.

The platitudes are wrong and cruel

 

[Lucas]

The chemical imbalance has always been kind of a medical cop out answer that doctors have come up with. Like it's true, but it's only part of the story. Chemical inbalance is only the physical side of the deal, the one that causes those physical symptoms when you are depressed, like your body weighting a ton and that awful feeling in your stomach. Meds will help with that, but if you have a philosophical reason to wanting to die, the meds will only be like a nice massage, you feel better, but the problem still exists. Other example would be like getting really good food in prison while serving life.

I have to say that many here tend to be bitter because people don't get suicide. I think it's a waste of energy. Life is such a personal thing and so is suicide, you don't have to justify your own actions to anybody.

Interesting sidenote, Sociologist Emile Durkheim has written that there are 4 types of suicide:

(now with accurate Wikipedia sources)

1. Egoistic suicide reflects a prolonged sense of not belonging, of not being integrated in a community. It results from the suicide's sense that s/he has no tether. This absence can give rise to meaninglessness, apathy, melancholy, and depression. Durkheim calls such detachment "excessive individuation". Those individuals who were not sufficiently bound to social groups (and therefore well-defined values, traditions, norms, and goals) were left with little social support or guidance, and were therefore more likely to commit suicide. Durkheim found that suicide occurred more often among unmarried people, especially unmarried men, whom he found had less to bind and connect them to stable social norms and goals.
   
   
2. Altruistic suicide is characterized by a sense of being overwhelmed by a group's goals and beliefs. It occurs in societies with high integration, where individual needs are seen as less important than the society's needs as a whole. They thus occur on the opposite integration scale as egoistic suicide. As individual interest would not be considered important, Durkheim stated that in an altruistic society there would be little reason for people to commit suicide. He described one exception: when the individual is expected to kill her/himself on behalf of society, for example in military service.
   
   
3. Anomic suicide reflects an individual's moral confusion and lack of social direction, which is related to dramatic social and economic upheaval. It is the product of moral deregulation and a lack of definition of legitimate aspirations through a restraining social ethic, which could impose meaning and order on the individual conscience. This is symptomatic of a failure of economic development and division of labour to produce Durkheim's organic solidarity. People do not know where they fit in within their societies. Durkheim explains that this is a state of moral disorder where people do not know the limits on their desires and are constantly in a state of disappointment. This can occur when they go through extreme changes in wealth; while this includes economic ruin, it can also include windfall gains – in both cases, previous expectations from life are brushed aside and new expectations are needed before they can judge their new situation in relation to the new limits.
   
   
4. Fatalistic suicide occurs when a person is excessively regulated, when their futures are pitilessly blocked and passions violently choked by oppressive discipline. It is the opposite of anomic suicide, and occurs in societies so oppressive their inhabitants would rather die than live on. For example, some prisoners might prefer to die than live in a prison with constant abuse and excessive regulation.

 

[anna]

(1) Egoistic suicide:

According to Durkheim, when a man becomes socially isolated or feels that he has no place in the society he destroys himself. This is the suicide of self-centred person who lacks altruistic feelings and is usually cut off from main stream of the society.

This is the suicide of self-centred person who lacks altruistic feelings

I do not agree with that.
I do not think that people who isolate themselves from society are egocentric and lacking altruistic feelings.

 

[Lucas]

I do not agree with that.
I do not think that people who isolate themselves from society are egocentric and lacking altruistic feelings.

Yeah, my mistake. I took it from a site that summarised the points that Durkheim had written while adding own silly things.

• Egoistic suicide reflects a prolonged sense of not belonging, of not being integrated in a community. It results from the suicide's sense that s/he has no tether. This absence can give rise to meaninglessness, apathy, melancholy, and depression. Durkheim calls such detachment "excessive individuation". Those individuals who were not sufficiently bound to social groups (and therefore well-defined values, traditions, norms, and goals) were left with little social support or guidance, and were therefore more likely to commit suicide. Durkheim found that suicide occurred more often among unmarried people, especially unmarried men, whom he found had less to bind and connect them to stable social norms and goals.

Here are better and more detailed explanations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

 

[sadak_the_wanderer]

Check out 1897's "Richard Cory," by Edwin Arlington Robinson:

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich—yes, richer than a king—
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

 

[anna]

Yeah, my mistake. I took it from a site that summarised the points that Durkheim had written while adding own silly things.

• Egoistic suicide reflects a prolonged sense of not belonging, of not being integrated in a community. It results from the suicide's sense that s/he has no tether. This absence can give rise to meaninglessness, apathy, melancholy, and depression. Durkheim calls such detachment "excessive individuation". Those individuals who were not sufficiently bound to social groups (and therefore well-defined values, traditions, norms, and goals) were left with little social support or guidance, and were therefore more likely to commit suicide. Durkheim found that suicide occurred more often among unmarried people, especially unmarried men, whom he found had less to bind and connect them to stable social norms and goals.

Here are better and more detailed explanations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

This makes more sense...
Thanks for the clarification and the link

 

[Elaina]

That's what I think anway. If someone is has struggled in life, worked hard and built themeselves up financially and socially along with having a busy productive day in the office and in the gym, imagine the reaction from others when they kill themselves.

"Oh he was depressed and just needed to see a therapist/exercise/eat healthilty''

What if you do all that and still feel like dying because society is just a bunch of B.S.? I'm really amazed that people claim that depression in most cases is a chemical imbalance deep in the brain yet think that exercise will help with it and eventually you'll "feel happy again and never return to depression".If that's the cases then shouldn't it be permanent and hardly changing? It would be foolish for someone to assume that with brain disorders likeschizophrenia and extreme bipolar disorder you can try and eventually it won't be there so why is it the same for depression?

I agree with you but you can also be rich and depressed

 

[TheStartOfEnding]

I'm not surprised by rich people who kill themselves, i'm surprised by attractive males who kill themselves.

Being rich doesn't guarantee you : validation/love/desire (you can buy sex, but not the genuine desire/love/validation) and those are for me the most important things in life, while being attractive does, at least for males (not that i'm sexist or anything, but girls have the problem of guys just wanting them for sex, attractive males don't have that problem)

So i'm surprised when someone like Avicii kills himself, but not when a rich but average/ugly male kills himself.

 

[Elaina]

I'm not surprised by rich people who kill themselves, i'm surprised by attractive males who kill themselves.

Being rich doesn't guarantee you : validation/love/desire (you can buy sex, but not the genuine desire/love/validation) and those are for me the most important things in life, while being attractive does, at least for males (not that i'm sexist or anything, but girls have the problem of guys just wanting them for sex, attractive males don't have that problem)

So i'm surprised when someone like Avicii kills himself, but not when a rich but average/ugly male kills himself.

I've had a girl friend turn down an attractive guy who wanted to be more than a fling because she thought his personality was shit and some girls genuinely don't want relationships. But I do think that attractive men have it easier than attractive women.

 

[TheStartOfEnding]

I've had a girl friend turn down an attractive guy who wanted to be more than a fling because she thought his personality was shit and some girls genuinely don't want relationships. But I do think that attractive men have it easier than attractive women.

There is always exception to the rules. I'm talking about the general tendency. Guys don't in general have the problem of not knowing if the girl is really attracted to them/finds them really georgous or just wants sex like girls have. even in the example you give, at least the guy knows the girl finds him hot if she wants to have se with him because girls are more choosy for sex flings, while for a girl, a guy wanting to have sex with her means nothing.

Generally, it's a fact girls don't fuck guys under their league because "they just want them for sex", even when a girl just want a guy for sex she wants the top-tier guys. Compared to guys, girls generally fuck guys they wanna date, the main exceptions are guys they don't wanna date not because they don't consider them at their level/are not attracted to them, but because either they don't want a relationship or they think the guy will cheat on them.

While attractive guys will often fuck girls under their league that they'd never wanna date because they can date better looking girls, they can even fuck girls they find unappealing because they are horny.

 

[Life sucks]

I quit being a rich slave because I already want to ctb and have many long-time problems and I hate the abuse and toxicity of humans and their fucking corporations and entities.

And I still didn't ctb. Fuck this life

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

You can't imagine how tired I'm of hearing "you need to do exercise" or "you need to keep a healthy lifestyle"...

Pieces of shit...

I exercise (Probably not enough) and I still want to die.

 

[Total Imbecile]

Most celebs kill themselves because they grow old. Being young, good looking and rich is literally everything in life.

Young Instagram male model > Bill Gates

Bill Gates would probably give away all of his money to be 20 again, words cannot describe how valuable having tight flexible skin and developed bones is. There are practically no celebrities that kill themselves in their early 20s

 

[Definitelyworried]

The chemical imbalance has always been kind of a medical cop out answer that doctors have come up with. Like it's true, but it's only part of the story. Chemical inbalance is only the physical side of the deal, the one that causes those physical symptoms when you are depressed, like your body weighting a ton and that awful feeling in your stomach. Meds will help with that, but if you have a philosophical reason to wanting to die, the meds will only be like a nice massage, you feel better, but the problem still exists. Other example would be like getting really good food in prison while serving life.

I have to say that many here tend to be bitter because people don't get suicide. I think it's a waste of energy. Life is such a personal thing and so is suicide, you don't have to justify your own actions to anybody.

Interesting sidenote, Sociologist Emile Durkheim has written that there are 4 types of suicide:

(now with accurate Wikipedia sources)

1. Egoistic suicide reflects a prolonged sense of not belonging, of not being integrated in a community. It results from the suicide's sense that s/he has no tether. This absence can give rise to meaninglessness, apathy, melancholy, and depression. Durkheim calls such detachment "excessive individuation". Those individuals who were not sufficiently bound to social groups (and therefore well-defined values, traditions, norms, and goals) were left with little social support or guidance, and were therefore more likely to commit suicide. Durkheim found that suicide occurred more often among unmarried people, especially unmarried men, whom he found had less to bind and connect them to stable social norms and goals.
   
   
2. Altruistic suicide is characterized by a sense of being overwhelmed by a group's goals and beliefs. It occurs in societies with high integration, where individual needs are seen as less important than the society's needs as a whole. They thus occur on the opposite integration scale as egoistic suicide. As individual interest would not be considered important, Durkheim stated that in an altruistic society there would be little reason for people to commit suicide. He described one exception: when the individual is expected to kill her/himself on behalf of society, for example in military service.
   
   
3. Anomic suicide reflects an individual's moral confusion and lack of social direction, which is related to dramatic social and economic upheaval. It is the product of moral deregulation and a lack of definition of legitimate aspirations through a restraining social ethic, which could impose meaning and order on the individual conscience. This is symptomatic of a failure of economic development and division of labour to produce Durkheim's organic solidarity. People do not know where they fit in within their societies. Durkheim explains that this is a state of moral disorder where people do not know the limits on their desires and are constantly in a state of disappointment. This can occur when they go through extreme changes in wealth; while this includes economic ruin, it can also include windfall gains – in both cases, previous expectations from life are brushed aside and new expectations are needed before they can judge their new situation in relation to the new limits.
   
   
4. Fatalistic suicide occurs when a person is excessively regulated, when their futures are pitilessly blocked and passions violently choked by oppressive discipline. It is the opposite of anomic suicide, and occurs in societies so oppressive their inhabitants would rather die than live on. For example, some prisoners might prefer to die than live in a prison with constant abuse and excessive regulation.

The crazy thing is that mine is a combination of #3 & #4.

 

[spicyfriedtofu]

I've never heard a doctor say it's a chemical imbalance. I have, however, heard a psychiatrist and researcher say the idea of a chemical imbalance is an extreme oversimplification and that depression is so much more.

I have also heard psychiatrists and researchers claim that exercise (~45 min a day, three times a week) have the same effect on depression as antidepressants. There are studies that have found this. This is of course statistically correct, meaning that for some people neither works. For me it does however. I feel a lot better when I exercise, but the problem is to find the motivation to go out and do it.

Moreover, studies on depression, when trying to find ways to treat it, always conclude with findings that a portion of the population no longer meet the criteria for depression. There might be three reasons for this: 1) the study is wrong, 2) the studies therapy is effective, or 3) the depression would have disappeared anyway. I tend to believe that 2 and 3 are the most probable.

What am I trying to say? That no educated doctor today believe in the notion of depression being merely a chemical imbalance; that exercise works for depression (in the statistical sense which is the only way we can talk about this); and that depression certainly can wear off, either naturally or with some kind of therapy.

 

[Definitelyworried]

Most celebs kill themselves because they grow old. Being young, good looking and rich is literally everything in life.

Young Instagram male model > Bill Gates

Bill Gates would probably give away all of his money to be 20 again, words cannot describe how valuable having tight flexible skin and developed bones is. There are practically no celebrities that kill themselves in their early 20s

There are actually quite a few celebrates that kill themselves quite young.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ritely.com/suicidal-celebrities/amp/

 

[psychopomp]

The chemical imbalance has always been kind of a medical cop out answer that doctors have come up with. Like it's true, but it's only part of the story. Chemical inbalance is only the physical side of the deal, the one that causes those physical symptoms when you are depressed, like your body weighting a ton and that awful feeling in your stomach. Meds will help with that, but if you have a philosophical reason to wanting to die, the meds will only be like a nice massage, you feel better, but the problem still exists. Other example would be like getting really good food in prison while serving life.

I have to say that many here tend to be bitter because people don't get suicide. I think it's a waste of energy. Life is such a personal thing and so is suicide, you don't have to justify your own actions to anybody.

Interesting sidenote, Sociologist Emile Durkheim has written that there are 4 types of suicide:

(now with accurate Wikipedia sources)

1. Egoistic suicide reflects a prolonged sense of not belonging, of not being integrated in a community. It results from the suicide's sense that s/he has no tether. This absence can give rise to meaninglessness, apathy, melancholy, and depression. Durkheim calls such detachment "excessive individuation". Those individuals who were not sufficiently bound to social groups (and therefore well-defined values, traditions, norms, and goals) were left with little social support or guidance, and were therefore more likely to commit suicide. Durkheim found that suicide occurred more often among unmarried people, especially unmarried men, whom he found had less to bind and connect them to stable social norms and goals.
   
   
2. Altruistic suicide is characterized by a sense of being overwhelmed by a group's goals and beliefs. It occurs in societies with high integration, where individual needs are seen as less important than the society's needs as a whole. They thus occur on the opposite integration scale as egoistic suicide. As individual interest would not be considered important, Durkheim stated that in an altruistic society there would be little reason for people to commit suicide. He described one exception: when the individual is expected to kill her/himself on behalf of society, for example in military service.
   
   
3. Anomic suicide reflects an individual's moral confusion and lack of social direction, which is related to dramatic social and economic upheaval. It is the product of moral deregulation and a lack of definition of legitimate aspirations through a restraining social ethic, which could impose meaning and order on the individual conscience. This is symptomatic of a failure of economic development and division of labour to produce Durkheim's organic solidarity. People do not know where they fit in within their societies. Durkheim explains that this is a state of moral disorder where people do not know the limits on their desires and are constantly in a state of disappointment. This can occur when they go through extreme changes in wealth; while this includes economic ruin, it can also include windfall gains – in both cases, previous expectations from life are brushed aside and new expectations are needed before they can judge their new situation in relation to the new limits.
   
   
4. Fatalistic suicide occurs when a person is excessively regulated, when their futures are pitilessly blocked and passions violently choked by oppressive discipline. It is the opposite of anomic suicide, and occurs in societies so oppressive their inhabitants would rather die than live on. For example, some prisoners might prefer to die than live in a prison with constant abuse and excessive regulation.

I would follow up and say the chemical imbalance idea is a half truth at best. For example, we can talk about serotonin levels and how SSRI essentially don't allow for re-uptake so it leaves more serotonin at play in the brain. There are other research focuses/theories out there as well that relate to norepinephrine and dopamine.

I would also say the poster child for all of that is the FMRI of a depressed brain vs a non-depressed brain.

See below for an article with cited research articles that I think does a good job of addressing the chemical side of it while also acknowledging the affects of environmental factors.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/couch-crisis/nuances-narratives-and-chemical-imbalance-debate

 

[tvoisluga]

Could be fatalistic suicide. In other words suicide caused by extreme mental and/or physical coersion. Like cults for example. My suicide will be fatalistic because my dad is a crazy mormon.

 

[sanitystruggle]

I posted this in another thread a little while back. Tl;dr chemical imbalance is a big load of shit.

The chemical imbalance theory of depression is at best an outdated and over simplistic model that has been widely discredited. At worst it's been used cynically and deliberately to market antidepressants (especially SSRIs and SNRIs) that are barely better than placebo and that come with a wide range of down sides and possible side effects. Plenty of people here can attest to having been harmed by these drugs, sometimes permanently.

Studies have found a reduction in symptoms of 40% for antidepressants and 30% for placebo. As few as 43% of studies found any benefit for antidepressants at all:

"Analyzing the data we had found, we were not surprised to find a substantial placebo effect on depression. What surprised us was how small the drug effect was. Seventy-five percent of the improvement in the drug group also occurred when people were give dummy pills with no active ingredient in them."

Studies that show a stronger effect for antidepressants often have questionable selection criteria, like excluding patients with "treatment resistant" depression. In other words when the drugs don't work those patients get removed from the research.

Wikipedia states the following for the serotonin theory of depression:

"The serotonin "chemical imbalance" theory of depression, proposed in the 1960s, is not supported by the available scientific evidence"

And links to the following articles supporting this claim:

Depression is probably not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain – new study

A new shows there’s no clear evidence that depression is caused by abnormally low levels of serotonin in the brain.

theconversation.com

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10618090

The causes of depression are complex and still not well understood. The causes of suicidal thoughts and actions even more so. Research struggles to account for the many factors that can drive a person to consider ending their own life and as others have said in this thread often ignores situational factors that offer a better explanation than pseudoscientific hand-waving about "chemical imbalance".

 

[divinemistress36]

Could be fatalistic suicide. In other words suicide caused by extreme mental and/or physical coersion. Like cults for example. My suicide will be fatalistic because my dad is a crazy mormon.

I live in Utah I'm surrounded by crazy Mormons

 

[Iamtired]

Most celebs kill themselves because they grow old. Being young, good looking and rich is literally everything in life.

Young Instagram male model > Bill Gates

Bill Gates would probably give away all of his money to be 20 again, words cannot describe how valuable having tight flexible skin and developed bones is. There are practically no celebrities that kill themselves in their early 20s

What are you talking about? Look at the long list of k-pop stars who die by suicide. Just look up anything related to notable suicides and you will see attractiveness does not preclude one from dying by their own hand and experiencing debilitating depression. I hate this topic. Looks are literally not everything in life. I have gotten 0% for my attractiveness. ZERO. i want to die.
Sure, an advantage? Fine. But anything beyond that and if you have a heart and soul and mind- you're subject to all the same things in life.
No I doubt bill gates would give away all his money to be a young male model. Highly doubt it.

 

[tvoisluga]

I live in Utah I'm surrounded by crazy Mormons

I am bulgarian but sects infiltrated after comunisam fell my grandma is mormon dad grew up mormon they are super fucked up mentally im so sorry you are surrounded by these pepple they are crazy

I am bulgarian but sects infiltrated after comunisam fell my grandma is mormon dad grew up mormon they are super fucked up mentally im so sorry you are surrounded by these pepple they are crazy

My aunt is a cop and whole family let me get beat by cousin social media stalking and mental torture till i closed myself from my whole family and kept to myself everyone has a shut mouth to keep face and because police here is corrupt and they are afraid of the animal(aunt)'s influence
Hope i make sense it is super hard to explain my thought flow especially in english

 

[sserafim]

I posted this in another thread a little while back. Tl;dr chemical imbalance is a big load of shit.

What about Buspar? Is it harmful as well? I used to take it a long time ago for anxiety

 

[tvoisluga]

I just feel you about the mormon shit. They fried my grandmas brain, physically abusive husband didnt help her. Overall insanity. I came out of this shit mentally wrecked and unstable

 

[vitbar]

If you are already prone to depressive episodes wealth and the cocaine use it allows can be a deadly combination. The comedowns from heavy sessions is when a lot of them step off the edge.

Beyond that some of the suggestions do help some people. If I keep myself active and get out to socialise enough I am far less depressed and the episodes are more managable. It gets really bad when I isolate myself from everyone. Not saying it's a one size fits all mind you.

 

[sanitystruggle]

What about Buspar? Is it harmful as well? I used to take it a long time ago for anxiety

I don't have any personal experience with Buspar but it's been around since the '60s and seems to have fewer side effects (especially long term after stopping treatment) compared to the SSRIs.

It's even been investigated as an add-on treatment to help with the sexual/libido side effects of SSRIs:

Effect of buspirone on sexual dysfunction in depressed patients treated with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors - PubMed

To evaluate the possible influence of buspirone on sexual dysfunction in depressed patients treated with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI), we analyzed data from a placebo-controlled trial designed to explore the efficacy of buspirone as add-on treatment for patients not responding...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov