The Schizoid
Specialist
- Oct 24, 2023
- 308
One thing that I strongly dislike is black or white thinking on life and death. I don't like it when people claim that "life is beautiful" and the only thing stopping you from seeing that is your own bad mindset, and that you need to be more appreciative. I have no doubt that in some people's cases being more grateful and having a better mindset may be the answer to them living a happier life and perceiving the world as beautiful, but for some people it's not that simple. On the flip side, I also don't like when people claim that life objectively sucks and is meaningless. Basically I don't like pure anti or pro life positions, and wish people would take into account how complicated life can be and how sometimes having a good life is a matter of winning the lottery or not. That's not to say that most people can't do things to improve their life, but the assumption some people make about all suicidal people is that they simply haven't tried enough, and if they had tried enough things to get better, they'd no longer be suicidal, which is insulting.
The reality of the matter is this - Life is not objectively good or bad. It is not objectively beautiful or ugly. Good/Bad, Beautiful/terrible are all matters of experience and perception. The only thing that gives life meaning is experience. Life can be EXPERIENCED as beautiful, and if you experience it that way, then fantastic. Good for you. A mixture of your genetics, upbringing and life circumstances have resulted in a healthy human mind, which means you do not need to CTB, because you have a good life.
But news flash - Not everyone's life is beautiful. Some people are born with shit genetics, developed poorly in the womb, had shitty parents, family or friends, were traumatized and now may have irreparable damage to deal with. Everyday may be a fucking misery, and their mind, body or brain may be in such a state that very little, if anything, can appear beautiful, because that persons mind is not in a state where it is capable of experiencing the world in that way.
You think because you walk to your favourite hiking spot and see a beautiful landscape that it's an objective fact that something beautiful exists? Well technically that's true... but it's not specifically that landscape that's beautiful, it is merely your experience of it that is beautiful. But others don't have the same brain as you, therefore may not experience that landscape in the same way you do. You look at an ocean and may see infinity, calm, peace. Someone else who has a damaged mind or brain, may simply feel nothing, or their internal turmoil may be so overwhelming that they simply cannot experience the ocean as anything but a meaningless background. I'm using this point as a criticism to those who appreciate their own life and see the world as amazing, but also at the same time think that if you are depressed and don't enjoy life in the same way they do, then it is simply you being immature or unappreciative. They don't take into consideration that the brain and the mind need to be functioning well enough to be able to enjoy life, because once your physical or mental health deteriorates that much, your ability to enjoy life WILL become extremely limited, and thus life pretty much becomes meaningless, unless there's a possibility that you will one day get better. For some people that is a possibility, for others it is not possible, and for others it may be possible but incredibly difficult to achieve, thanks to complicated mental health disorders, physical health problems that have no cure, and other complicated issues where the individual has tried many different things and still hasn't been able to find a solution.
It is the health of your mind that allows life to be beautiful, because it's SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE that makes life beautiful, mediocre or an absolute misery. That subjective experience can be impacted by internal and external factors, some of which may be beyond control or repair. If someone manages to change things in their life such as their mindset, personality, diet, lifestyle, or maybe acquires a better romantic partner or friends etc etc, and that change leads to a healthier mind which is now capable of experiencing the world in a way in which it appears beautiful... then that's fantastic. So now they've cleared enough obstacles to allow their own subjective experience to become satisfying enough to be worth sticking around for. So now they don't need to CTB.
But unfortunately, that is not the case with some people, who have already tried many things to get better, and nothing has worked for them to the degree that their subjective experience of life is worth remaining alive for. I'm not going to tell anyone as an individual that they shouldn't stay alive or that their life isn't worth living, because that's for them to decide, but it seems so clear that some people's experience of life is poor, and if your quality of life is poor, then life is of no value, because the only value is in the experience. I fail to see how you can argue that all life is beautiful and all lives should be preserved regardless of how bad an individuals quality of life is. Like I said, "beautiful" is a matter of perception and experience. Nothing is objectively beautiful, it is beautiful if you experience it that way, and making life beautiful is not always as simple as taking meds, finding god or doing therapy. Creating a happy life may literally be impossible for some people, which may be difficult to understand but if the brain that generates experiences isn't functioning well, and cannot be repaired, then there may be little to no beauty available for that individual. Beauty does not exist objectively, similar to meaning doesn't exist objectively. It exists subjectively and is generated by the brain, but life will only have beauty, happiness, satisfaction and meaning if the brain or mind of a particular individual is healthy enough to have those experiences.
Hopefully if some of you didn't already understand the above before reading this, you will now, and understand that sometimes living a beautiful and satisfying life isn't just about a persons maturity and appreciation, but of their mental and physical health, which is sometimes beyond repair to a degree where a satisfying life is not possible. If you are happy now, you have to respect that it's at least partially due to your brain being healthy enough to generate the chemicals necessary to generate those experiences. Maybe some of you are amazing people who have struggled a lot and overcame pain and now your level of maturity, intelligence and wisdom has allowed you to create a meaningful and wonderful life, but you have to respect that it's not always 100% in your hands. If your mental or physical health deteriorates to such a degree in the future, your level of maturity, faith in god or mindset may not be enough to overcome your health struggles to such a degree where happiness is still possible. It is not completely up to you if you are happy or not, I'm sorry but that's the way it is, so stop trying to convince all depressed and suicidal people that they're weak and just immature and don't have the right god in their life. And don't assume that's simply just a persons lack of trying that is at fault here. Many people have tried many different things and no professional, diet or wellness routine has helped. You have no fucking idea what some people go through. You can't even imagine the pain. I don't care if that's sounds dramatic.
Ultimately, many on this forum believe that it should be the individuals right to decide if CTB is the right thing for them, because only they can truly know what they're going through and assess if their life really is worth living. It is them that is experiencing that life, not you, so how can you claim you know better how to determine if an individuals life is worth sticking around for? Sure, if you want to convince someone to stay alive and your arguments and support help create a better perspective for a person, and that saves them, then great, just as long as your attempt to save them doesn't involve you completely eliminating their ability to CTB as that may simply be the best option for some people.
I'm sick of people who live in their own little bubble who think that everyone has the capacity to experience life exactly the same as them and because something like medication or "finding Jesus" worked for them it must work everyone else. This world is full of imbeciles who think they've worked it all out, and everyone who doesn't see it exactly like them is an idiot, unenlightened or evil/insidious.
This is the reason why this website is slandered and made to look predatory by fools in the media or online because they simply emotionally react to the concept of SS without fully understanding what is actually going on. I understand why you think people should perhaps do more sometimes to try and prevent suicide, I get it. I don't think anyone on here should ever be trying to convince someone that suicide is the best thing for them. Many people on here simply believe that it should be an individuals decision to be made alone, but whatever decision they make, we respect it and will offer them understanding, emotional support and information. Nothing more.
Perhaps all of you who are coming here as a result of Tantacrul's video, or as a result of hearing about it on the news, and you're here with a pre-existing hatred of the website - Take into consideration that keeping someone alive and "saving them", may be the preferred outcome for you, but not for that individual. If you really respect and love a person, you should prioritise that persons desires for their own life over your desires for their life.
You may have personal stories about a family member being saved and how they are now living a happy life. You yourself may be a CTB attempt survivor and you may be so grateful to still be alive. FINE. You are entitled to your own view on suicide. You are entitled not to agree with it, in the same way you may be a pro-lifer when it comes to abortion rights. This is a reasonable comparison I think. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. If you don't want to CTB, don't do it. If you want to try and encourage people to seek help. FINE! JUST DON'T FORCE YOUR POINT OF VIEW ON OTHERS BY ULTIMATELY DENYING THEIR RIGHTS TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS!!
No one on here is demanding you agree with some of our ethical or philosophical views, but we pray that you only allow your point of view to govern your OWN life choices, and don't force that on the rest of us! If you don't want to end your own life, then don't, but just because you and others like you are against suicide, doesn't mean the rest of us should be denied the right to die if we so choose.
Just like if you dislike abortion, don't get an abortion, but don't try to remove others rights to have one! And don't force others to stay alive with this ridiculous view that everyone's life is beautiful and if the individual trying to CTB disagrees that their life is worth living, then they're being immature, unappreciative or selfish, and therefore they're not mature or competent enough to make their own decision, which in your mind may give you the right to take away their control and assert your will over them, That's all I ask. If you're going to view this website in any way, for god's sake at least spend some time on here and see what is actually going on, not what you heard from some other source that is obviously biased and has it's own agenda.
In regards to how "selfish" suicide is -
IF YOU ARE DENYING SOMEONE THEIR RIGHT TO DIE, YOU ARE PRIORITISING WHAT YOU WANT FOR THEM OVER WHAT THEY WANT FOR THEMSELVES. THERE'S NO GREATER FORM OF SELFISHNESS THAN DENYING OTHERS THEIR OWN RIGHTS.
Yes, suicide is arguably selfish. But at least it's selfishness directed at your own life and not someone else's, such as in denying someone the ability to what they want their own life because you don't like the decisions they make. How would you feel if it were the reverse and someone denied you what you wanted because they don't agree with your own decisions? I would definitely encourage any suicidal person to take into consideration their actions consequences for others, but ultimately I do not believe that someone should be denied the ability to make their own decisions regarding their own life, because of how other people feel about those decisions.
We euthanize dogs all the time because we recognise that death is a kindness afforded to them sometimes, so how can we deny that same right to death to humans? Especially when humans can consent to death and articulate what they're going through? So we can euthanize an animal that cannot consent and recognise it's the most ethical option, but when you have a species that actually has a concept of death and can make rational decisions AND consent.... you deny them that same kindness? How does that make sense at all?
One more thing before I sign off -
This post is not here to try and make an argument as to why you should die or why you should stay alive. That's completely up to you. This is just me sharing my views on life and death, which may impact the mindsets and opinions of readers. This thread is in no way encouragement for any particular action, so this thread and other threads like it should not be blamed for any decisions that are made after it being read. This is simply me expressing my views with my own freedom to speak, and I hope if anyone, whether you be pro or anti CTB, or a moderator of this forum, please be reasonable enough to talk to me if you think I need to edit this post to make it more reasonable, rather than demanding I delete it or be banned. I don't think there's anything in this post that encourages people to die. I'm not saying you should die, I'm saying we should strongly consider our views about people's RIGHT to die, without influencing their decision too much besides offering information and philosophical discussions which may influence people's thoughts and actions going forward, but not in a way that anyone can be held responsible for those decisions besides the individuals themselves who make those decisions.
Sharing our thoughts and feelings on this subject, as well as sharing information about CTB and what works and doesn't work, should not be a crime. It is not our job as users on this forum to try and cause or prevent CTB. Our primary concern is supporting and informing people and then letting them make their own mind up. That is all.
I hope you all find peace in your own way, alive or otherwise.
If you're going to take anything away from this, remember - It's not life itself that's of value, it's an individuals subjective experience of it that may be of value or may not be. And that individuals subjective experience may be of more value to them than non-existence, but that depends on the individual.
The reality of the matter is this - Life is not objectively good or bad. It is not objectively beautiful or ugly. Good/Bad, Beautiful/terrible are all matters of experience and perception. The only thing that gives life meaning is experience. Life can be EXPERIENCED as beautiful, and if you experience it that way, then fantastic. Good for you. A mixture of your genetics, upbringing and life circumstances have resulted in a healthy human mind, which means you do not need to CTB, because you have a good life.
But news flash - Not everyone's life is beautiful. Some people are born with shit genetics, developed poorly in the womb, had shitty parents, family or friends, were traumatized and now may have irreparable damage to deal with. Everyday may be a fucking misery, and their mind, body or brain may be in such a state that very little, if anything, can appear beautiful, because that persons mind is not in a state where it is capable of experiencing the world in that way.
You think because you walk to your favourite hiking spot and see a beautiful landscape that it's an objective fact that something beautiful exists? Well technically that's true... but it's not specifically that landscape that's beautiful, it is merely your experience of it that is beautiful. But others don't have the same brain as you, therefore may not experience that landscape in the same way you do. You look at an ocean and may see infinity, calm, peace. Someone else who has a damaged mind or brain, may simply feel nothing, or their internal turmoil may be so overwhelming that they simply cannot experience the ocean as anything but a meaningless background. I'm using this point as a criticism to those who appreciate their own life and see the world as amazing, but also at the same time think that if you are depressed and don't enjoy life in the same way they do, then it is simply you being immature or unappreciative. They don't take into consideration that the brain and the mind need to be functioning well enough to be able to enjoy life, because once your physical or mental health deteriorates that much, your ability to enjoy life WILL become extremely limited, and thus life pretty much becomes meaningless, unless there's a possibility that you will one day get better. For some people that is a possibility, for others it is not possible, and for others it may be possible but incredibly difficult to achieve, thanks to complicated mental health disorders, physical health problems that have no cure, and other complicated issues where the individual has tried many different things and still hasn't been able to find a solution.
It is the health of your mind that allows life to be beautiful, because it's SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE that makes life beautiful, mediocre or an absolute misery. That subjective experience can be impacted by internal and external factors, some of which may be beyond control or repair. If someone manages to change things in their life such as their mindset, personality, diet, lifestyle, or maybe acquires a better romantic partner or friends etc etc, and that change leads to a healthier mind which is now capable of experiencing the world in a way in which it appears beautiful... then that's fantastic. So now they've cleared enough obstacles to allow their own subjective experience to become satisfying enough to be worth sticking around for. So now they don't need to CTB.
But unfortunately, that is not the case with some people, who have already tried many things to get better, and nothing has worked for them to the degree that their subjective experience of life is worth remaining alive for. I'm not going to tell anyone as an individual that they shouldn't stay alive or that their life isn't worth living, because that's for them to decide, but it seems so clear that some people's experience of life is poor, and if your quality of life is poor, then life is of no value, because the only value is in the experience. I fail to see how you can argue that all life is beautiful and all lives should be preserved regardless of how bad an individuals quality of life is. Like I said, "beautiful" is a matter of perception and experience. Nothing is objectively beautiful, it is beautiful if you experience it that way, and making life beautiful is not always as simple as taking meds, finding god or doing therapy. Creating a happy life may literally be impossible for some people, which may be difficult to understand but if the brain that generates experiences isn't functioning well, and cannot be repaired, then there may be little to no beauty available for that individual. Beauty does not exist objectively, similar to meaning doesn't exist objectively. It exists subjectively and is generated by the brain, but life will only have beauty, happiness, satisfaction and meaning if the brain or mind of a particular individual is healthy enough to have those experiences.
Hopefully if some of you didn't already understand the above before reading this, you will now, and understand that sometimes living a beautiful and satisfying life isn't just about a persons maturity and appreciation, but of their mental and physical health, which is sometimes beyond repair to a degree where a satisfying life is not possible. If you are happy now, you have to respect that it's at least partially due to your brain being healthy enough to generate the chemicals necessary to generate those experiences. Maybe some of you are amazing people who have struggled a lot and overcame pain and now your level of maturity, intelligence and wisdom has allowed you to create a meaningful and wonderful life, but you have to respect that it's not always 100% in your hands. If your mental or physical health deteriorates to such a degree in the future, your level of maturity, faith in god or mindset may not be enough to overcome your health struggles to such a degree where happiness is still possible. It is not completely up to you if you are happy or not, I'm sorry but that's the way it is, so stop trying to convince all depressed and suicidal people that they're weak and just immature and don't have the right god in their life. And don't assume that's simply just a persons lack of trying that is at fault here. Many people have tried many different things and no professional, diet or wellness routine has helped. You have no fucking idea what some people go through. You can't even imagine the pain. I don't care if that's sounds dramatic.
Ultimately, many on this forum believe that it should be the individuals right to decide if CTB is the right thing for them, because only they can truly know what they're going through and assess if their life really is worth living. It is them that is experiencing that life, not you, so how can you claim you know better how to determine if an individuals life is worth sticking around for? Sure, if you want to convince someone to stay alive and your arguments and support help create a better perspective for a person, and that saves them, then great, just as long as your attempt to save them doesn't involve you completely eliminating their ability to CTB as that may simply be the best option for some people.
I'm sick of people who live in their own little bubble who think that everyone has the capacity to experience life exactly the same as them and because something like medication or "finding Jesus" worked for them it must work everyone else. This world is full of imbeciles who think they've worked it all out, and everyone who doesn't see it exactly like them is an idiot, unenlightened or evil/insidious.
This is the reason why this website is slandered and made to look predatory by fools in the media or online because they simply emotionally react to the concept of SS without fully understanding what is actually going on. I understand why you think people should perhaps do more sometimes to try and prevent suicide, I get it. I don't think anyone on here should ever be trying to convince someone that suicide is the best thing for them. Many people on here simply believe that it should be an individuals decision to be made alone, but whatever decision they make, we respect it and will offer them understanding, emotional support and information. Nothing more.
Perhaps all of you who are coming here as a result of Tantacrul's video, or as a result of hearing about it on the news, and you're here with a pre-existing hatred of the website - Take into consideration that keeping someone alive and "saving them", may be the preferred outcome for you, but not for that individual. If you really respect and love a person, you should prioritise that persons desires for their own life over your desires for their life.
You may have personal stories about a family member being saved and how they are now living a happy life. You yourself may be a CTB attempt survivor and you may be so grateful to still be alive. FINE. You are entitled to your own view on suicide. You are entitled not to agree with it, in the same way you may be a pro-lifer when it comes to abortion rights. This is a reasonable comparison I think. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. If you don't want to CTB, don't do it. If you want to try and encourage people to seek help. FINE! JUST DON'T FORCE YOUR POINT OF VIEW ON OTHERS BY ULTIMATELY DENYING THEIR RIGHTS TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS!!
No one on here is demanding you agree with some of our ethical or philosophical views, but we pray that you only allow your point of view to govern your OWN life choices, and don't force that on the rest of us! If you don't want to end your own life, then don't, but just because you and others like you are against suicide, doesn't mean the rest of us should be denied the right to die if we so choose.
Just like if you dislike abortion, don't get an abortion, but don't try to remove others rights to have one! And don't force others to stay alive with this ridiculous view that everyone's life is beautiful and if the individual trying to CTB disagrees that their life is worth living, then they're being immature, unappreciative or selfish, and therefore they're not mature or competent enough to make their own decision, which in your mind may give you the right to take away their control and assert your will over them, That's all I ask. If you're going to view this website in any way, for god's sake at least spend some time on here and see what is actually going on, not what you heard from some other source that is obviously biased and has it's own agenda.
In regards to how "selfish" suicide is -
IF YOU ARE DENYING SOMEONE THEIR RIGHT TO DIE, YOU ARE PRIORITISING WHAT YOU WANT FOR THEM OVER WHAT THEY WANT FOR THEMSELVES. THERE'S NO GREATER FORM OF SELFISHNESS THAN DENYING OTHERS THEIR OWN RIGHTS.
Yes, suicide is arguably selfish. But at least it's selfishness directed at your own life and not someone else's, such as in denying someone the ability to what they want their own life because you don't like the decisions they make. How would you feel if it were the reverse and someone denied you what you wanted because they don't agree with your own decisions? I would definitely encourage any suicidal person to take into consideration their actions consequences for others, but ultimately I do not believe that someone should be denied the ability to make their own decisions regarding their own life, because of how other people feel about those decisions.
We euthanize dogs all the time because we recognise that death is a kindness afforded to them sometimes, so how can we deny that same right to death to humans? Especially when humans can consent to death and articulate what they're going through? So we can euthanize an animal that cannot consent and recognise it's the most ethical option, but when you have a species that actually has a concept of death and can make rational decisions AND consent.... you deny them that same kindness? How does that make sense at all?
One more thing before I sign off -
This post is not here to try and make an argument as to why you should die or why you should stay alive. That's completely up to you. This is just me sharing my views on life and death, which may impact the mindsets and opinions of readers. This thread is in no way encouragement for any particular action, so this thread and other threads like it should not be blamed for any decisions that are made after it being read. This is simply me expressing my views with my own freedom to speak, and I hope if anyone, whether you be pro or anti CTB, or a moderator of this forum, please be reasonable enough to talk to me if you think I need to edit this post to make it more reasonable, rather than demanding I delete it or be banned. I don't think there's anything in this post that encourages people to die. I'm not saying you should die, I'm saying we should strongly consider our views about people's RIGHT to die, without influencing their decision too much besides offering information and philosophical discussions which may influence people's thoughts and actions going forward, but not in a way that anyone can be held responsible for those decisions besides the individuals themselves who make those decisions.
Sharing our thoughts and feelings on this subject, as well as sharing information about CTB and what works and doesn't work, should not be a crime. It is not our job as users on this forum to try and cause or prevent CTB. Our primary concern is supporting and informing people and then letting them make their own mind up. That is all.
I hope you all find peace in your own way, alive or otherwise.
If you're going to take anything away from this, remember - It's not life itself that's of value, it's an individuals subjective experience of it that may be of value or may not be. And that individuals subjective experience may be of more value to them than non-existence, but that depends on the individual.
Total agree with you
