Question for people who believe in God.

[KillingPain267]

Sure, they'll let them do risky things like climb trees but, they don't generally conceal a spear pit beneath. Their punishments for disobeying aren't usually banishing them to a pit of fire forever. What's the point of any punishment that lasts forever in fact? That's surely just sadism.

But children can risk dying if they fall down from the tree house and break their necks, can they not? God warned that eating of the fruit would make them "surely die". It says nothing about eternal conscious torment. In fact, the Old Testament texts don't mention anything about the medieval European caricature of "hell". The word translated "hell" is from Sheol, and it is often also translated as grave, death, pit. The descriptions of the dead are that they are in silence, darkness and don't praise God. In other words, unconscious. I, and a significant minority of Christians, believe "hell" is not an eternal conscious torment but rather an eternal death (eternal being that the dead never again rise again, unlike believers who will rise again unto an eternal life without sin, pain, sorrow and death). Revelation 21:4: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." I also believed the medieval caricature of hell before, but upon study of the biblical texts I have come to believe in what's called annihilationism or conditional immortality. You may look up those terms if you feel like.

I really should stay off threads regarding religion... I get so wound up...

Me too, haha. I get wound up. But I don't mind challenging hard questions. It just makes me study more and learn more.

 

[sevennn]

i do not think my god can help me. i believe god is not omnipotent and can change nothing in the physical world. i believe god is only omnipresent. so i cannot be helped by my god. it's not possible. without going into details. i simply believe in god as a big consciousness. that's all. it does help me. i like to think about the heaven that god could make for me. i do think only the non physical world is within gods control. the thought of heaven and this version of god does help me. i made up my own religion. because all of them are made up by someone anyway. so why couldn't i do the same. if it helps me

 

[Forever Sleep]

But children can risk dying if they fall down from the tree house and break their necks, can they not? God warned that eating of the fruit would make them "surely die". It says nothing about eternal conscious torment. In fact, the Old Testament texts don't mention anything about the medieval European caricature of "hell". The word translated "hell" is from Sheol, and it is often also translated as grave, death, pit. The descriptions of the dead are that they are in silence, darkness and don't praise God. In other words, unconscious. I, and a significant minority of Christians, believe "hell" is not an eternal conscious torment but rather an eternal death (eternal being that the dead never again rise again, unlike believers who will rise again unto an eternal life without sin, pain, sorrow and death). Revelation 21:4: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." I also believed the medieval caricature of hell before, but upon study of the biblical texts I have come to believe in what's called annihilationism or conditional immortality. You may look up those terms if you feel like.

Me too, haha. I get wound up. But I don't mind challenging hard questions. It just makes me study more and learn more.

Thank you for being so patient. It can't be nice to have your faith berated but I appreciate you not losing your cool. I don't mean to offend people of faith. It's religion itself that tends to trigger me.

Hmmm, eternal death sounds ideal. Maybe I'll just keep on trying not to believe. I actually wish I was a firm disbeliever. The truth is, I don't feel sure either way.

 

[doneforlife]

I'm not so sure it's so different though. We are still animals at the end of the day. We need certain things in order to survive. We die without water and food. So- our bodies are designed to tell us when we need either. That's a desire- right? Hunger, thirst. If we ignore those things, they become stronger. Is that what we need to do then? Just sit still until we die? Death is a desire too. It's a very strong desire here! Having no desires is a desire. Being one with God or the universe is a desire. How is it actually possible to have no desire? It surely dictates everything we do from the moment we're born. Babies are born from desire too. Unless they are supposed to procreate without getting aroused. Can people do that?

It just seems like a common theme in religion is to deny all the things that- as humans/ animals- we are programmed to want to do. Gluttony, lust, sloth, wrath, jealousy, greed. I agree- they're bad qualities to have but we've been designed to be tempted by all of them! That's a mean thing to do to my mind. I suppose most religions do feel like a test to resist certain things but- how is that not still obeying a set of rules?

It's not that I don't see the sense in it. It makes a great deal of sense in trying to maintain order in society. It even has good points. Wrath, jealousy, greed- all unpleasant things to harbour. I still think the very set up of it is sadistic though. Why give creatures such desires? To test for obedience.

Imagine creating an experiment. You get to create every single element and, as a perfect being, you can make it just how you want it. Or- you make the decision to split yourself into billions of mortal beings to see what earth is like. Yet- you know the way back to divinity is going to go against pretty much everything a mortal human being will naturally want to do. You know that these consciousnesses will at least feel independent of you (I don't feel like I'm part of a God) and you know- if they deviate from the plan even slightly, they'll suffer horrifically. Why would anything start such an experiment? Maybe if the end goal was incredible but I don't know, I can't imagine what that could be.

That said, one of my colleagues at work was a Hindu and I loved her ideas and outlook on life. She was a very kind person.

I shall take this point wise.

In Hinduism, desires is not defined as hunger , thirst etc. These are things needed for survival. They don't come under desire category. As already stated ..eating , drinking , excreting, procreating and defending are common to all lives. You need to do it , even if you don't want to do it.

Desire is anything that goes outside of the boundaries of what's needed for survival. But assuming your basic desires are fulfilled, do you want more ? That's the premise . And it's not an end result oriented framework, where you will be judged and punished. It's a framework where you go in the direction of your actions. Your ACTIONS decide everything for you. Now , how do actions get generated? From your desires , right ? So if your desire is to build a company..you work towards that. If your desire is to become an actor , you work towards that and so on and so forth. It's also never stated that you need to pray God , immerse in God , become monk etc. If a founder works incessantly, they gets successful in establishing a firm. If an actor works hard , they get fame and appreciation. If a human works towards getting out of the cycle of birth and death, they get that. It's also not said that you need to always have this desire to break the cycle. Breaking the cycle is not the end goal. Establishing a firm can very well be the end goal as well. But then you got what you desired ! If your desire is to break the cycle, you will work towards it. You will never come back to this place.

 

[KillingPain267]

Thank you for being so patient. It can't be nice to have your faith berated but I appreciate you not losing your cool. I don't mean to offend people of faith. It's religion itself that tends to trigger me.

No, I didn't feel berated. Your points made me re-study some Bible passages, so I had something to pass the time with today, lol.

Hmmm, eternal death sounds ideal. Maybe I'll just keep on trying not to believe. I actually wish I was a firm disbeliever. The truth is, I don't feel sure either way.

Yeah, eternal death, but you have to first endure the first death, but then also a SECOND death though, lol. Because scripture says all the dead will rise again and stand before a final judgment when Jesus returns. Unbelieving sinners will be sentenced to a second death in the lake of fire. I take that to mean literally being burned alive until death. So some evil mass murderer or something who was fortunate enough to die peacefully in his sleep will wake up from the dust to a rude awakening, lol.

Meanwhile, sinners who admitted their sin and believed in the gospel message will be given a body that can no longer sin, no longer feel sorrow, no longer feel pain, no longer decay or age and live on forever on a literal new earth and new heavens, i.e. new universe (scripture also doesn't teach the myth that the afterlife is being as disembodied ghosts in the clouds like the medieval and cartoon caricatures but as physical beings).

So I'd say eternal life in eternal bliss is even more ideal than eternal unconsciousness. But that's just me, lol. Also, to get eternal life is a totally free gift. The common misconception is that it requires a life-long toil of good works and conservative living, but it's false. All you must do is admit sin, believe that Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day, and trust Him as personal Savior. That's it. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Those who claim to be Christians often boast about being good people. They're not, and often they are even worse than other people. They don't know the first basic thing about being a Christ-believer even means. I often have more friendly discussions with unbelievers like you than with other religious people!

 

[doneforlife]

I'm not so sure it's so different though. We are still animals at the end of the day. We need certain things in order to survive. We die without water and food. So- our bodies are designed to tell us when we need either. That's a desire- right? Hunger, thirst. If we ignore those things, they become stronger. Is that what we need to do then? Just sit still until we die? Death is a desire too. It's a very strong desire here! Having no desires is a desire. Being one with God or the universe is a desire. How is it actually possible to have no desire? It surely dictates everything we do from the moment we're born. Babies are born from desire too. Unless they are supposed to procreate without getting aroused. Can people do that?

It just seems like a common theme in religion is to deny all the things that- as humans/ animals- we are programmed to want to do. Gluttony, lust, sloth, wrath, jealousy, greed. I agree- they're bad qualities to have but we've been designed to be tempted by all of them! That's a mean thing to do to my mind. I suppose most religions do feel like a test to resist certain things but- how is that not still obeying a set of rules?

It's not that I don't see the sense in it. It makes a great deal of sense in trying to maintain order in society. It even has good points. Wrath, jealousy, greed- all unpleasant things to harbour. I still think the very set up of it is sadistic though. Why give creatures such desires? To test for obedience.

Imagine creating an experiment. You get to create every single element and, as a perfect being, you can make it just how you want it. Or- you make the decision to split yourself into billions of mortal beings to see what earth is like. Yet- you know the way back to divinity is going to go against pretty much everything a mortal human being will naturally want to do. You know that these consciousnesses will at least feel independent of you (I don't feel like I'm part of a God) and you know- if they deviate from the plan even slightly, they'll suffer horrifically. Why would anything start such an experiment? Maybe if the end goal was incredible but I don't know, I can't imagine what that could be.

That said, one of my colleagues at work was a Hindu and I loved her ideas and outlook on life. She was a very kind person.

Sorry , I forgot to address few other things in my last comment. I shall try addressing those as well. I had addressed only the desire part in my last comment .

Lust , greed , jealousy , wrath..they are all human emotions. You are not a bad person to feel these emotions. But what matters is how you act on these . Let's say A and B were dumped by their respective partners. They feel anger , wrath. But A uses this emotion to work on himself , make himself a better version of his past but B uses the same emotion to physically harm his partner. People in love when rejected , throw acids , and also kill their lover. Same is the case with all other emotions. A feels greed for more money, tries to do something, let's say creates a business which earns him revenue. B feels greed to have more money, but uses his greed to kill his sibling to acquire all the property. So , it's not the feeling, it's the action that matters. "You" are basically your "intent" and "action" . It's not a test , it defines who you are. It defines where you go next. We are all in a journey where our next destination is defined by our previous actions . No test , judgement etc is involved.

God didn't split itself to mortal beings. You have your individuality. You are independent of God. You are here because you desired to experience this realm . Just like when you are in your own house and you desire to go out and explore. So you are here exploring. When you don't want to explore anymore, you will go back to your house. Until then you will keep roaming the streets. It isn't about experiment to see whether you can overcome your desire and come back to your house. It is a platform to allow you to experience your own desires. Every pain that comes to us is because of our own action . Do you think the person B who let's say killed his partner in the above example should go back to God without payback ? Think through. Should there not be any consequence ?

 

[brokeandbroken]

If you're religious, then why don't you feel helped by your God? Why don't your God and religion make you feel better and more comfortable?

This is an overly complex question in terms of Christianity. And I think it's definitely said that your outside world and what is happening influences how you perceive God.

I suppose the conventional reason is that shadows prove the sunshine. Though one has to ask at some point where the hell is this sunshine I've heard so much about.

Another reason is that good ultimately springs forth in excess of the bad in terms of the world. Though that doesn't mean *for* you least in terms of comfortability on earth. This is usually assumed to be greater numbers in heaven. Though this has a lot of problems. In terms of what good means and how things have been constructed. Is it the numbers? Has the universe been constructed to save the most people? Or is it more torture and seeing who still wants to be with God in the end. It's hard to know what good means in this context therefore it is a little hand wavy.

Another is it is a test of faith. See above God basically making your life difficult to see how much you care. I suppose one could say it's easy to be with God in the good times but hard in the bad. Though I suppose this is belied by the amount of people finding God in the bad times so this may not be the case.

Honestly I don't know why. I just know he isn't. As to why I don't feel helped? Because everything has been taken from me. I have no friends, my career was stolen (literally), my family basically disowned me, my meals are shit pbnjs for every meal basically (food insecurity as well), and a fucking disgusting and terrible living situation. Honestly there is nothing in my life that gives it any happiness, joy, or any relief from my suffering. Everything in my life was taken from me and I was left with pain, agony, and suffering instead of what I worked my ass off for. Like i said before what is this sunshine I've heard so much about?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sorry , I forgot to address few other things in my last comment. I shall try addressing those as well. I had addressed only the desire part in my last comment .

Lust , greed , jealousy , wrath..they are all human emotions. You are not a bad person to feel these emotions. But what matters is how you act on these . Let's say A and B were dumped by their respective partners. They feel anger , wrath. But A uses this emotion to work on himself , make himself a better version of his past but B uses the same emotion to physically harm his partner. People in love when rejected , throw acids , and also kill their lover. Same is the case with all other emotions. A feels greed for more money, tries to do something, let's say creates a business which earns him revenue. B feels greed to have more money, but uses his greed to kill his sibling to acquire all the property. So , it's not the feeling, it's the action that matters. "You" are basically your "intent" and "action" . It's not a test , it defines who you are. It defines where you go next. We are all in a journey where our next destination is defined by our previous actions . No test , judgement etc is involved.

God didn't split itself to mortal beings. You have your individuality. You are independent of God. You are here because you desired to experience this realm . Just like when you are in your own house and you desire to go out and explore. So you are here exploring. When you don't want to explore anymore, you will go back to your house. Until then you will keep roaming the streets. It isn't about experiment to see whether you can overcome your desire and come back to your house. It is a platform to allow you to experience your own desires. Every pain that comes to us is because of our own action . Do you think the person B who let's say killed his partner in the above example should go back to God without payback ? Think through. Should there not be any consequence ?

I do actually really like the sound of aspects of this religion. Seems a lot more reasonable.

Hmm, definitely- there should be consequences for bad actions- in this life and the next- if there happens to be one.

I'm still not clear on why any of this had to come about though. I don't believe many of us would have chosen to come here unless we were either lied to about what it would really be like. Or, we were in fact conscious and bored rigid before we were born- which most of us don't remember.

I suppose it's because I don't understand what the end goal is in any religion- it simply doesn't justify what we go through here- to me. I'll admit though, I only know the bare basics about various religions. Maybe there is a clear end goal?

They all seem a bit wishy washy though. Heaven is a bit like a holiday. I mean- lovely but- boring after a while- surely? Are we really doing or not doing all this just to gain access to some sort of country club? Or, to avoid hell? Breaking the cycle of reincarnation sounds great to those of us who detest life itself but again- to go on and do... what? It's a bit of an anticlimax! You do all this stuff just to be released?

So then, is it generally thought that it was a mistake to come here to begin with? That we'll be paying for for however long it takes to achieve non desire? Again- it's a bit like Adam and Eve then... We're all here stuck with the decisions some people we have no recollection of made billions of years ago.

I feel like people will put up with suffering if there's a reason. They're determined to climb Everest. So, they'll put up with the blisteing cold. Women will go through labor repeatedly if they want children that much. Grandparents will linger on with pain to watch their family grow.

I suppose the 'problem' with the general suffering in life is the doubt that it is in fact for anything! Or rather, anything that feels worthy enough to justify all this. I think that's the anger we often sense here. As in- Why am I here suffering? I didn't choose this. Who- asides from my parents thought it was ok to inflict this on me and everyone else? Seeing as I'm here now- what am I supposed to do? Comply basically. Comply to whatever society and religion we happen to be geographically located in. But, then we grow and realise there are many religions and most of them don't like dual membership. So- who's right? Then it becomes about faith. No- don't ask for proof. You need to believe!

It's just all a big mess to my mind. Why would any God want it to be so confusing for people? They want them to find their own way in life. Nice. But, if they make the wrong decision, choose the wrong God, denounce all Gods, then what? Punishment presumably- in one form or another.

It's a bit like the awful situation the operators of the Pripryat nuclear power station found themselves in in 1986. They go on shift and are notified they are to run a safety test on the reactor. It's the first they've heard of it. They know it can be risky powering these sorts of reactors up and down. They get handed a manual with a lot of the instructions crossed out. Imagine they are handed 5 or 6 manuals with pages missing, sentences crossed out. They have to decide which manual to choose. Which instructions to follow. What's more, their supervisor is putting constant pressure on them to get the job done. That's how I see life and religion really. Like, we have no real idea on who's right- which religion to follow, whether we have the right to ask questions, whether we'll be punished if we dare to. Regardless, we won't get any answers! We need to work it out for ourselves and, if we get it wrong, there are terrible consequences. It simply doesn't feel like a fair thing to put people through.

 

[AAE]

If you're religious, then why don't you feel helped by your God? Why don't your God and religion make you feel better and more comfortable?

There's a difference between religion and faith. Religion can all too often be a form of brainwashing/indoctrination. I have faith. I believe in the good things done and said by Jesus, many of his teachings and I do believe he died to save us. At the same time I don't dig into the Old Testament too much because way too many times "God" is used as a synonym for what seems more like several higher beings of good and evil trying to make people believe they are the greatest.

There's a good reason to question bad things in the Bible, since its scriptures have been written and maintained by human hands and minds since the beginning. Humans having free will and are known to prefer doing whatever grants them more power. I wouldn't be surprised if many scriptures have been altered and corrupted through the ages.

I think God is an eternal being of light and love which can take on any form. God might've appeared as a man among other things because of different human cultures and way back, sadly, only men were respected in many cultures. Way too much of our ancient history is lost to be able to know more about this.

To answer your question: My faith is my last hope, but faith doesn't remove the endless suffering we experience. On the other hand, faith can teach us to respect others, to act with kindness and be humble, which I'm just as bad at as anyone, hence the need for forgiveness.

People who claim to have faith yet judge others who suffer for not being able to handle living anymore are brainwashed hypocrites who obviously have forgotten Jesus' teachings.

Are you saying that children getting leukemia or earthquakes killing hundreds of people are caused by sin? How? Or are you saying they're not bad? I'm just curious what's the logic behind this statement, because I struggle to see any.

Everything in our physical realm has counterparts. Hot and cold. Light and dark. Good and evil. Sins, as in humans who do truly evil acts, wouldn't create diseases or natural disasters. They're simply part of the natural balance between counterparts. There couldn't possibly be only good in our physical realm, the way it works because an existence without a balance would be neutral. Maybe in the spiritual realm it could be possible but in our physical realm everything has counterparts, without which we wouldn't be able to tell differences. That's why I see this life as a time of gaining experience, then hopefully we can reach peace.

The creation of the physical realm might've required the sacrifice of neutrality, I wouldn't know. I believe in something better after this life as I continue to suffer endlessly at the hands of evil humans as well as chronic illnesses and disabilities, because what other hope do we have?

 

[chester]

Everything in our physical realm has counterparts. Hot and cold. Light and dark. Good and evil. Sins, as in humans who do truly evil acts, wouldn't create diseases or natural disasters. They're simply part of the natural balance between counterparts. There couldn't possibly be only good in our physical realm, the way it works because an existence without a balance would be neutral. Maybe in the spiritual realm it could be possible but in our physical realm everything has counterparts, without which we wouldn't be able to tell differences. That's why I see this life as a time of gaining experience, then hopefully we can reach peace.

All of what you describe are not objective features of the material world, it's just us humans attributing meaning to stuff. Nothing needs to balance out because objectively speaking everything is neutral. "Hot" and "cold" is just in our minds, but take human perception out of the equation, you end up with just temperature. There's no hot or cold if there's nobody who can feel a temperature. There's no light or dark, there's just some amount of electromagnetic radiation of certain wavelengths. Etc. We create such opposing concepts, because we like to think things need to balance out, and this allows us to create a vision of the world in which they do.

I believe in something better after this life as I continue to suffer endlessly at the hands of evil humans as well as chronic illnesses and disabilities, because what other hope do we have?

I truly miss the times when I believed. It gave me a feeling of meaningfulness of life and I'm sure it would give me strength to carry on in spite of what happened in my life. I'd like to believe my fiancee dying doesn't mean she just vanished completely, but we'll reunite some day and be happy together again, but to me wishing something was true is not enough to believe it is.

 

[dimgobaith]

If you're religious, then why don't you feel helped by your God? Why don't your God and religion make you feel better and more comfortable?

I've asked for help but so do millions of other people. There are likely many more people more deserving of help than me and in worse situations.
I get it if I can't be help but it doesn't stop me asking. I also apologise for wanting to CTB but I also explain my reasons and ask that even though it's not condoned please may I have thr courage when the time comes

 

[AAE]

All of what you describe are not objective features of the material world, it's just us humans attributing meaning to stuff. Nothing needs to balance out because objectively speaking everything is neutral. "Hot" and "cold" is just in our minds, but take human perception out of the equation, you end up with just temperature. There's no hot or cold if there's nobody who can feel a temperature. There's no light or dark, there's just some amount of electromagnetic radiation of certain wavelengths. Etc. We create such opposing concepts, because we like to think things need to balance out, and this allows us to create a vision of the world in which they do.

Yeah that's an interesting take on it. Everything being neutral until we start measuring it in our way, good point. But those concepts exist in many of our minds anyway, and I personally believe that good vs evil is a very important thing since I think we can all agree that the evil of humanity has ruined a lot in this world, which had been a better place if everyone had leaned towards good instead.

I'm very sorry about your fiancé. I lost my closest loved one, my mother, 2 and a half years ago and the phantom pain never ends. I also truly wish we'll get to be with our loved ones again. Reading about NDE's (Near Death Experiences) and their similarities has left me very hopeful even though it doesn't cure the pain at all.

 

[doneforlife]

I do actually really like the sound of aspects of this religion. Seems a lot more reasonable.

Hmm, definitely- there should be consequences for bad actions- in this life and the next- if there happens to be one.

I'm still not clear on why any of this had to come about though. I don't believe many of us would have chosen to come here unless we were either lied to about what it would really be like. Or, we were in fact conscious and bored rigid before we were born- which most of us don't remember.

I suppose it's because I don't understand what the end goal is in any religion- it simply doesn't justify what we go through here- to me. I'll admit though, I only know the bare basics about various religions. Maybe there is a clear end goal?

They all seem a bit wishy washy though. Heaven is a bit like a holiday. I mean- lovely but- boring after a while- surely? Are we really doing or not doing all this just to gain access to some sort of country club? Or, to avoid hell? Breaking the cycle of reincarnation sounds great to those of us who detest life itself but again- to go on and do... what? It's a bit of an anticlimax! You do all this stuff just to be released?

So then, is it generally thought that it was a mistake to come here to begin with? That we'll be paying for for however long it takes to achieve non desire? Again- it's a bit like Adam and Eve then... We're all here stuck with the decisions some people we have no recollection of made billions of years ago.

I feel like people will put up with suffering if there's a reason. They're determined to climb Everest. So, they'll put up with the blisteing cold. Women will go through labor repeatedly if they want children that much. Grandparents will linger on with pain to watch their family grow.

I suppose the 'problem' with the general suffering in life is the doubt that it is in fact for anything! Or rather, anything that feels worthy enough to justify all this. I think that's the anger we often sense here. As in- Why am I here suffering? I didn't choose this. Who- asides from my parents thought it was ok to inflict this on me and everyone else? Seeing as I'm here now- what am I supposed to do? Comply basically. Comply to whatever society and religion we happen to be geographically located in. But, then we grow and realise there are many religions and most of them don't like dual membership. So- who's right? Then it becomes about faith. No- don't ask for proof. You need to believe!

It's just all a big mess to my mind. Why would any God want it to be so confusing for people? They want them to find their own way in life. Nice. But, if they make the wrong decision, choose the wrong God, denounce all Gods, then what? Punishment presumably- in one form or another.

It's a bit like the awful situation the operators of the Pripryat nuclear power station found themselves in in 1986. They go on shift and are notified they are to run a safety test on the reactor. It's the first they've heard of it. They know it can be risky powering these sorts of reactors up and down. They get handed a manual with a lot of the instructions crossed out. Imagine they are handed 5 or 6 manuals with pages missing, sentences crossed out. They have to decide which manual to choose. Which instructions to follow. What's more, their supervisor is putting constant pressure on them to get the job done. That's how I see life and religion really. Like, we have no real idea on who's right- which religion to follow, whether we have the right to ask questions, whether we'll be punished if we dare to. Regardless, we won't get any answers! We need to work it out for ourselves and, if we get it wrong, there are terrible consequences. It simply doesn't feel like a fair thing to put people through.

Let me try to address this as well to the best of my efforts.

I am not clear as to why this cycle was set in motion. But from what I understand, it was our desire. We wanted to experience the materialistic realm. It is not like we chose the exact life we are living or our parents etc. But we chose to experience earth. Let me take the father analogy. Instead of the mushroom one , let's replace it by chocolate. Now if your kid asks you for a chocolate, you won't deny. But once the kid is introduced to that chocolate, it's further relationship with the chocolate is no more in control of the father. The kid is going to grow up , earn and make decisions for itself. Now the relationship with chocolate will determine the kid's future health. If the kid is in control , all is good. If the kid consumes a lot , it would suffer from dental and diabetic problems . The father is in no position to make decisions for the grown up kid , but can only advise.

The end goal : There is no end goal. It is said that we are eternal. We never die. We shed bodies. We get new bodies. But we are and have been always living. We either live in this realm , or we live merged with God. It is no where said that the end goal is to merge with God . There is no goal. There is just existence. If you want it to be here , you will be here. If you want it to be with God , you will be there. But you need to be somewhere. There is no state of non existence (I hope this was not true). There is no hell / heaven. There is no release. There is just transition. You transitioned from being with God to this realm. You will be transitioned from here to be with God .

No it wasn't a mistake to come here. The kid wanting a chocolate is not a mistake. We are here not because of any one else but on our own volition. No Adam and Eve made this decision for us .

Suffering is a sensitive topic. Usually we overlook it when there is a burning desire. Somehow we think the suffering is acceptable. But then since it's our desire, it comes attached with suffering. Take any example. A desire for kid comes with labour pain. A desire for success comes with severe toiling. A desire for anything has suffering attached to it. Hence smartness is in breaking the cycle of desires. It's not an end goal per se as explained earlier, but you get the equation!

In Hinduism, you can be an atheist and still be loved by God. There is no ritual . There are no threats. There is no burning in eternity if you don't believe in God. What's important is your intent and your action. But yes , devotion matters. You may ask isn't devotion the same as praying , performing rituals , following manuals. No. Devotion means service to mankind . If you help someone in need , you are devoted. Kindness and compassion is ultimate devotion. Every good action originated from a space of good intent is a prayer to God.

There is no constant pressure. If you are a good human being, you can't commit a bad act. Trust me it takes a lot to do bad things. Not all can do it.

 

[Darkover]

Let me try to address this as well to the best of my efforts.

I am not clear as to why this cycle was set in motion. But from what I understand, it was our desire. We wanted to experience the materialistic realm. It is not like we chose the exact life we are living or our parents etc. But we chose to experience earth. Let me take the father analogy. Instead of the mushroom one , let's replace it by chocolate. Now if your kid asks you for a chocolate, you won't deny. But once the kid is introduced to that chocolate, it's further relationship with the chocolate is no more in control of the father. The kid is going to grow up , earn and make decisions for itself. Now the relationship with chocolate will determine the kid's future health. If the kid is in control , all is good. If the kid consumes a lot , it would suffer from dental and diabetic problems . The father is in no position to make decisions for the grown up kid , but can only advise.

The end goal : There is no end goal. It is said that we are eternal. We never die. We shed bodies. We get new bodies. But we are and have been always living. We either live in this realm , or we live merged with God. It is no where said that the end goal is to merge with God . There is no goal. There is just existence. If you want it to be here , you will be here. If you want it to be with God , you will be there. But you need to be somewhere. There is no state of non existence (I hope this was not true). There is no hell / heaven. There is no release. There is just transition. You transitioned from being with God to this realm. You will be transitioned from here to be with God .

No it wasn't a mistake to come here. The kid wanting a chocolate is not a mistake. We are here not because of any one else but on our own volition. No Adam and Eve made this decision for us .

Suffering is a sensitive topic. Usually we overlook it when there is a burning desire. Somehow we think the suffering is acceptable. But then since it's our desire, it comes attached with suffering. Take any example. A desire for kid comes with labour pain. A desire for success comes with severe toiling. A desire for anything has suffering attached to it. Hence smartness is in breaking the cycle of desires. It's not an end goal per se as explained earlier, but you get the equation!

In Hinduism, you can be an atheist and still be loved by God. There is no ritual . There are no threats. There is no burning in eternity if you don't believe in God. What's important is your intent and your action. But yes , devotion matters. You may ask isn't devotion the same as praying , performing rituals , following manuals. No. Devotion means service to mankind . If you help someone in need , you are devoted. Kindness and compassion is ultimate devotion. Every good action originated from a space of good intent is a prayer to God.

There is no constant pressure. If you are a good human being, you can't commit a bad act. Trust me it takes a lot to do bad things. Not all can do it.

While your perspective offers a meaningful spiritual framework, it lacks empirical support when examined through a scientific lens. There's no credible evidence for eternal existence or reincarnation; neuroscience strongly suggests that consciousness is entirely dependent on the brain, which ceases upon death. Desire, rather than being the root of suffering, is essential for motivation, and it's attachment to outcomes—not desire itself—that often leads to distress. Morality, too, is not an inherent trait but a social construct, shaped by evolution to foster cooperation. Ultimately, secular evidence points to life as a finite experience with no ultimate spiritual goal beyond what we create ourselves.

 

[doneforlife]

While your perspective offers a meaningful spiritual framework, it lacks empirical support when examined through a scientific lens. There's no credible evidence for eternal existence or reincarnation; neuroscience strongly suggests that consciousness is entirely dependent on the brain, which ceases upon death. Desire, rather than being the root of suffering, is essential for motivation, and it's attachment to outcomes—not desire itself—that often leads to distress. Morality, too, is not an inherent trait but a social construct, shaped by evolution to foster cooperation. Ultimately, secular evidence points to life as a finite experience with no ultimate spiritual goal beyond what we create ourselves.

I shall not deny this. Science and God are not different. Science is in a way manifestation of God( if there is one). Let's take gravity. We know why there is gravity. It's a property of mass. Every body attracts another body with a force. We could determine the mathematical representation of that force. But why is it that the body has such a property? Who was responsible for assigning that property to the body? If you carefully observe this world, everything happens through a process, not magically. Some process , we have been able to decipher. Some we still have not cracked. I mean this isn't the end stage of science, right. May be 5000 years from now , we may have the tech needed to see through various births. Or may be we will never see that as it was intended to stay that way.

Desire is accompanied by suffering. The path to any end goal starts with desire , navigates through hard work and ends with achieving the goal . This hard work is the real struggle. Suffering at times is associated with that struggle. Then there are other forms of suffering. Let's say you didn't achieve the goal. That's suffering as well ! And it exists because you had a desire. Of course desire gives motivation. Desire is not classified as bad .

Yes , morality is subjective. But action
--> consequences isn't subjective. You don't study for the exams , you fail . You don't kick the ball , the ball stays where it was. You dont start the engine, the vehicle doesn't move. Pretty objective.

 

[Darkover]

Let's take gravity. We know why there is gravity. It's a property of mass. Every body attracts another body with a force. We could determine the mathematical representation of that force

while Newton's law describes how gravity behaves and allows us to calculate its strength, it doesn't fully explain why gravity exists as a force. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity provided a deeper understanding by describing gravity not as a force, but as a result of the curvature of spacetime around massive objects. According to this theory, objects with mass warp spacetime, causing other objects to follow curved paths, which we interpret as the effect of gravity

 

[doneforlife]

while Newton's law describes how gravity behaves and allows us to calculate its strength, it doesn't fully explain why gravity exists as a force. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity provided a deeper understanding by describing gravity not as a force, but as a result of the curvature of spacetime around massive objects. According to this theory, objects with mass warp spacetime, causing other objects to follow curved paths, which we interpret as the effect of gravity

What's the explanation for the curvature? Why space time curves around massive objects ?

 

[Darkover]

What's the explanation for the curvature? Why space time curves around massive objects

The curvature of spacetime around massive objects is explained by Einstein's General Relativity: mass and energy cause spacetime to curve, and this curvature dictates the motion of objects. While we understand how this works mathematically, the deeper reason why spacetime behaves this way remains a mystery. Ongoing research in quantum gravity might eventually provide insights into the underlying cause.

 

[doneforlife]

The curvature of spacetime around massive objects is explained by Einstein's General Relativity: mass and energy cause spacetime to curve, and this curvature dictates the motion of objects. While we understand how this works mathematically, the deeper reason why spacetime behaves this way remains a mystery. Ongoing research in quantum gravity might eventually provide insights into the underlying cause.

Yes. It's a mystery just like dna carrying genetic data. We know it carries the software to generate a human out of it. We know the "how"...the process. But why exactly this way ? It could have been designed in thousand other ways.
We know that amino acids make complex structure called proteins which ultimately forms the tissues, muscles . This explains the "how". But again why is it this way ? Who assigned the task to dna to replicate? Who assigned the task to amino acids to form building blocks ?

 

[Trav1989]

I can't help but feel as though every religion is man-made because all of them have an answer to everything but seldom are the answers adequate and require heavy amounts of mental gymnastics to accept.

I do believe there could possibly be a higher power/powers but humanity would have obviously corrupted their teachings to fit our own narrative at the time by choice, ignorance, or both.

 

[Demian]

If you're religious, then why don't you feel helped by your God? Why don't your God and religion make you feel better and more comfortable?

There is a theory that says that some of the rebel angels came to Earth in human form as a sentence from God. As a result, they remain on Earth, reincarnating and suffering the consequences of the rebellion they caused in heaven. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of children who show clear signs of reincarnation died violently in their past lives.