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What verdict should the Judge or Jury in the trial of Kenneth Law issue?

  • Not guilty

    Votes: 79 72.5%
  • Guilty

    Votes: 30 27.5%

  • Total voters
    109
Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,066
KL's motives were fundamentally the same as your average N scammer - he sought to financially profit from abject misery. The fact that his product was legit and accessible makes it fair enough to lament the end of this distribution line but nobody should really give a fuck about what happens to him now, just like he never truly gave a fuck about any of us.
 
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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,107
A former member of this forum, Emma Morrison, wants him to be convicted:

I know which accounts were used by Emma Morrison and she has literally shared SN sources with members of the community herself. I can't even describe how hypocritical it is to run to the media, demand that someone gets convicted for selling SN while she not only exchanged info on SN vendors herself but also openly admitted that she still plans to buy new SN - less than a month ago, okay. Because here is the deal, she never left the forum, not voluntarily. So it's a bit odd that you would tell the media that you "recovered" and left the forum for good because we're supposedly nothing but an echo chamber when you still actively use it to discuss your struggles and your plans to obtain a new batch of SN again. Very interesting behavior.
 
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D

dggtscccvfd

Mage
Jun 1, 2023
563
I know which accounts were used by Emma Morrison and she has literally shared SN sources with members of the community herself. I can't even describe how hypocritical it is to run to the media, demand that someone gets convicted for selling SN while she not only exchanged info on SN vendors herself but also openly admitted that she still plans to buy new SN - less than a month ago, okay. Because here is the deal, she never left the forum, not voluntarily. So it's a bit odd that you would tell the media that you "recovered" and left the forum for good because we're supposedly nothing but an echo chamber when you still actively use it to discuss your struggles and your plans to obtain a new batch of SN again. Very interesting behavior.
Has she now been banned?
 
mortuarymary

mortuarymary

Enlightened
Jan 17, 2024
1,367
He got cocky then caught. No sympathy.
 
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Pessimist

Pessimist

Arcanist
May 5, 2021
446
I know which accounts were used by Emma Morrison and she has literally shared SN sources with members of the community herself. I can't even describe how hypocritical it is to run to the media, demand that someone gets convicted for selling SN while she not only exchanged info on SN vendors herself but also openly admitted that she still plans to buy new SN - less than a month ago, okay. Because here is the deal, she never left the forum, not voluntarily. So it's a bit odd that you would tell the media that you "recovered" and left the forum for good because we're supposedly nothing but an echo chamber when you still actively use it to discuss your struggles and your plans to obtain a new batch of SN again. Very interesting behavior.
Do you mind sharing her accounts? I'm curious now.
 
N

never mind me

Student
Nov 7, 2022
131
I don't really understand why some people like forever sleep think it makes a difference, if he sold to minors or not or the fact that he might have sold the stuff for ctb to make a profit. People can be in lots of pain even if they are under the age of 18. Why should they not be allowed to end their suffering? In fact I think people are often in a worse situation, if they are under 18 than people over 18. At least, if you are over 18 you normally have a chance to get away from people who bully or abuse you (even if this might sometimes mean sleeping rough). If you are underage police normally will bring you back to your parents, no matter what. Although in some developped countries with good social services you might be able to convince authorities to remove you from your parent's house, if you are abused. But even in the developped countries this can't be relied on and depends on luck.
It's the same with school and jobs: If you are 18 and over you can at least apply for a different job, if you don't like the one you have or quit and beg or steal (or rely on welfare in some countries) to survive. If you are under 18 you will be forced by your parents or legal guardian to attend school no matter how miserable it is. So, if young and physically healthy people over 18 have the right to die, why should people under 18 who are often in a far worse situation not have the right to die?
It's probably fair to compare Kenneth Law to a drug dealer, but for me that's more of an argument that he shouldn't be punished. I don't think that anyone should be punished for selling drugs anywhere in the world. After all people can decide by themselves, if and what kind of drugs they want to use. And even if taking drugs might not be a permanent solution to ease life, for many people (myself included) it can bring fleeting moments of happyness or temporary relieve from suffering and that is better than nothing. I don't understand why it should be a bad thing to make a profit from selling drugs or selling stuff for ctb, at least not more than it would be to make a profit from selling any other item like food, clothes or whatever else.
 
F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
8,037
I don't really understand why some people like forever sleep think it makes a difference, if he sold to minors or not or the fact that he might have sold the stuff for ctb to make a profit. People can be in lots of pain even if they are under the age of 18. Why should they not be allowed to end their suffering? In fact I think people are often in a worse situation, if they are under 18 than people over 18. At least, if you are over 18 you normally have a chance to get away from people who bully or abuse you (even if this might sometimes mean sleeping rough). If you are underage police normally will bring you back to your parents, no matter what. Although in some developped countries with good social services you might be able to convince authorities to remove you from your parent's house, if you are abused. But even in the developped countries this can't be relied on and depends on luck.
It's the same with school and jobs: If you are 18 and over you can at least apply for a different job, if you don't like the one you have or quit and beg or steal (or rely on welfare in some countries) to survive. If you are under 18 you will be forced by your parents or legal guardian to attend school no matter how miserable it is. So, if young and physically healthy people over 18 have the right to die, why should people under 18 who are often in a far worse situation not have the right to die?
It's probably fair to compare Kenneth Law to a drug dealer, but for me that's more of an argument that he shouldn't be punished. I don't think that anyone should be punished for selling drugs anywhere in the world. After all people can decide by themselves, if and what kind of drugs they want to use. And even if taking drugs might not be a permanent solution to ease life, for many people (myself included) it can bring fleeting moments of happyness or temporary relieve from suffering and that is better than nothing. I don't understand why it should be a bad thing to make a profit from selling drugs or selling stuff for ctb, at least not more than it would be to make a profit from selling any other item like food, clothes or whatever else.

It's not that I don't feel sorry for suicidal minors- I was one. I've had ideation since I was 10.

It's a cruel way to do it but- by restricting 'peaceful' methods in general- our governments and societies hope it will push us into reaching out for help I imagine. Of course- they need to provide that (adequate) help and the bigger issue is probably that they don't. But- I get the reasoning. I suppose I feel like I did at least have more pathways open to me when I was 18 than I do now but I concede, not everyone does. Some youngsters have even lost all hope by that point. I don't know how to give them that back but our governments and parents really ought to be working it out! It's their future and responsibility.

I'm not saying youngsters don't feel pain. I fully realise they do. Ages 10-18 were the very worst of my life (to date.) If someone is suicidal as a child, there's a good chance the home environment has something to do with it I imagine. So I suppose my hope is that by age 18, they can move out and get away from that- which helped me at least initially.

I'd also argue that we do tend to react more emotionally and catastrophically when we are young. It's pretty saddening to hear a child killed themselves because they failed a test or split up with their boyfriend/girlfriend. I don't know enough about the brain's development to be able to argue the science but I imagine there's a reason we can't (legally) buy alcohol, cigarettes etc. before a certain age.

Fair enough that you have your own opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. My opinions aren't exactly certain or set in stone either. Sometimes, I can see it from so many different viewpoints that, I can't work out my absolute feelings. It's a difficult subject...

Regarding drugs though- I'm not at all keen. Drugs can ruin people's lives. I know lots of other legal things can too but I've seen enough to think they aren't a good thing. Each to their own if people want to try them but no, I don't think a 12 year old can make a well thought out decision to buy heroin say.

Plus, yes- just by living, we cause suffering to others. The amounts change though. I don't particularly like the idea of people making money selling weapons. I don't like it when our MP's capitalise on a crisis and get their rich mates to provide the PPE in a pandemic and they get a share of the profits. So- no- I don't like it when people directly make money off the suffering and deaths of other people. It just proves to me that this world favours sociopaths. That's what it comes down to ultimately: I can't workout whether he's some champion of autonomy and a provider of mercy or, a fairly cold sociopath who really didn't give a shit whether people died or not or, the manner in which they suffered- I remember one member was likely sold the wrong thing and they suffered but, didn't die. So yeah- I admire mercy killers. I don't admire sociopaths.
 
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mortuarymary

mortuarymary

Enlightened
Jan 17, 2024
1,367
He also didnt hide the fact either. He did profit from someone else's misery. Same as places like Pegasus etc. Why not offer it for free if you care that much? Just pay the prescription price of N and your flights.
Death equals greed.
 
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outrider567

Visionary
Apr 5, 2022
2,428
Not Guilty!
 
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Valky

Valky

Petulant Child
Apr 4, 2023
1,322
KL's motives were fundamentally the same as your average N scammer - he sought to financially profit from abject misery. The fact that his product was legit and accessible makes it fair enough to lament the end of this distribution line but nobody should really give a fuck about what happens to him now, just like he never truly gave a fuck about any of us.
Fully agreeing with this. People who think he had no idea about what was going on are just delusional.
 
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outrider567

Visionary
Apr 5, 2022
2,428
If I was on the Jury, I would never find him guilty in a million years--Shame on you Canada
 
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CanIStopTryingNow

Member
Oct 15, 2023
9
I think he'll get convicted of the lower charge of assisting a suicide and they might tag on some drug smuggling charges, but I don't think they'll get him for murder 1 or 2.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

they say itā€™s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
8,553
Personally, I don't think that he should be found guilty. He had no control over what people were going to do with the SN. It's like a store being convicted for selling a gun that was used to cause a murder or school shooting.
 
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Goku Black

Goku Black

Global Mod
Jun 5, 2023
3,289
Personally, I don't think that he should be found guilty. He had no control over what people were going to do with the SN. It's like a store being convicted for selling a gun that was used to cause a murder or school shooting.
But it's the fact that some of his buyers were minors that may make it stick a lot since it's young children whose lives were taken far too soon even though they personally decided to do it. Didn't his SN come with other items as well, well that's if you paid more for it, like AEs and antacid?
 
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CanIStopTryingNow

Member
Oct 15, 2023
9
I don't think he should be charged, but I like to consider myself a realist and I don't think he'll get away. Even if a jury nullifies, it would end up being a Morgentaler case where the crown appealed an any not guilty verdict.
 
RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,107
Has she now been banned?

Yes. If you talk to the media about this forum, throw shade at us and lie, I don't think you're entitled to use this forum anymore.

Do you mind sharing her accounts? I'm curious now.

Her account was @AnonymousRobin. Check for yourself if what she said in that interview and what she posted on this forum is consistent. It's not. If you go to the media as a "recovered member" who has "left the forum" because it's such a "horrible echo chamber", while you still use it for support and actively discuss your plans to purchase SN again for the purpose of suicide, because that's literally what she did back in January, I will call you out. She has also offered to share SN sources via PM, while acting outraged that someone would message her a source for SN. I'm done protecting people who backstab us, acting like they're better than the rest of us, while they enjoy the privileges of being a member of this forum. That's not how it works. There are so many lies and inconsistencies in that interview, it's quite incredible.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

they say itā€™s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
8,553
But it's the fact that some of his buyers were minors that may make it stick a lot since it's young children whose lives were taken far too soon even though they personally decided to do it. Didn't his SN come with other items as well, well that's if you paid more for it, like AEs and antacid?
I guess so. The fact that some buyers were minors would definitely add to his conviction, especially in such a pro-life society. Honestly, I don't know much about the situation/incident, it was before my timeā€¦
 
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Goku Black

Goku Black

Global Mod
Jun 5, 2023
3,289
I guess so. The fact that some buyers were minors would definitely add to his conviction, especially in such a pro-life society. Honestly I don't know much about the situation/incident, it was before my timeā€¦
Plus the families will want him to pay for his actions as much as possible
 
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Suicidebydeath

Suicidebydeath

No chances to be happy - dead inside
Nov 25, 2021
3,562
I voted not guilty, and I think its very hypocritical of Kate Morrison to have purchased from Klaw and bashing him and the site while she was still using it.

I do think the SN was marked up, but at least he had a valid reason to do so. That being, that selling SN wasn't safe at all for him, evidenced by the mere existence of the trial in the first place. It also wasn't that expensive, imo it was affordable, at least for me. I purchased SN too and I feel bad about his trial.

He's going to be found guilty of something, imo.
 
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Goku Black

Goku Black

Global Mod
Jun 5, 2023
3,289
I voted not guilty, and I think its very hypocritical of Kate Morrison to have purchased from Klaw and bashing him and the site while she was still using it.
Yeah, hypocritical of her indeed even going so far as to say she'd been planning to try sn again
 
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eashanm

Master
Feb 22, 2023
429
The most basic question is - If a person is suffering, writhing in pain and agony, due a variety of reasons, what's the best choice for him?

It could be either, but if he or she feels they need to go, make a willful decision of dying, why to stop them, increase their suffering and torture them further?

It is technically a crime by the government for torture.

As for KL, he committed no crime. All he did was send a potion which could be used for anything. If people chose to die from it and release their suffering, how can it even be brought into a question of crime?

Right to Live and Right To Die
 
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ringo99

ringo99

Specialist
Apr 18, 2023
374
First degree murder is excessive. Aiding and abetting may be more appropriate. The people he sent SN to made a conscious decision to end their lives. He didn't restrain them and force it down their throats. But I still don't see him avoiding jail time. Society would rather that the people who ctbed suffer constantly than give them a chance to end their pain
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,066
Kenneth Law is not a figure in any compassionate "right to die" movement, his motivation was purely personal profit and if it can be established that he was actively and enthusiastically pushing his product directly to suicidal people and using deaths of others for personal gain then he is fucked and thems the breaks.
 
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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,107
All accounts created by Emma, ever since she has been banned, attempting to get back into the forum after she told the media that she has recovered. It's simply unfair and extremely dishonest to lie to the media, throw this forum under the bus as a negative and harmful echo-chamber when you obviously don't mean it and play the highground when it comes to method discussion and exchange of sources.

 
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Onomatopoeia

Onomatopoeia

Student
Feb 17, 2024
171
Canada's definition of homicide/murder is slightly different than in the USA. But if Kenneth Law had Johnnie Cochran (OJ Simpson's lawyer) or Jose Baez (Casey Anthony's lawyer), then this wouldn't even be close.

Canada's definition of homicide is when "a person, directly or indirectly, by any means, they cause the death of a human being." Prosecutors are arguing that the act of him simply selling SN to people is homicide.

Alcohol can kill you if consumed excessively in one night. If Law is found guilty, then every bartender in Canada is in serious trouble, if someone they served died in a drunk driving accident. Even if prosecutors can loosely tie circumstantial evidence that Law was promoting the product on this website, that's still no different than liquor companies making TV commercials and bars promoting Happy Hours.

Canada has the exact same "beyond a reasonable doubt" criminal standard as the USA. All the criminal defense attorney has to do is instill doubt in the jury that Law caused these people's deaths. Just because a gun shop sold you the gun, doesn't make them criminally liable if you shoot yourself...at least not in the USA. If he has competent representation, he will get off.
 
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Dot

Dot

Globl mod | Info abt typng styl on prfle.
Sep 26, 2021
2,589
Kenneth Law is not a figure in any compassionate "right to die" movement, his motivation was purely personal profit and if it can be established that he was actively and enthusiastically pushing his product directly to suicidal people and using deaths of others for personal gain then he is fucked and thems the breaks.

Agree

Slf hve 0 sympthy fr hm


Canada has the exact same "beyond a reasonable doubt" criminal standard as the USA. All the criminal defense attorney has to do is instill doubt in the jury that Law caused these people's deaths. Just because a gun shop sold you the gun, doesn't make them criminally liable if you shoot yourself...at least not in the USA. If he has competent representation, he will get off.

Thse 2 parnts in usa wre convnctd of involntry manslghtr fr givng thr homicdl son a fre-arm tho

All accounts created by Emma, ever since she has been banned, attempting to get back into the forum after she told the media that she has recovered. It's simply unfair and extremely dishonest to lie to the media, throw this forum under the bus as a negative and harmful echo-chamber when you obviously don't mean it and play the highground when it to method discussion and exchange of sources.


:-(
 
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penguinl0v3s

penguinl0v3s

Wait for Me šŸ’™
Nov 1, 2023
757
Do you guys think ken law deserves a verdict of guilty or not guilty? He's been charged with assisting members of our community in committing suicide.
I'm not sure where the confusion is, he literally did assist people in committing suicide. Regardless of your sentiments towards suicide, did indeed do what he is charged of. The question is more whether or not assisted suicide is unethical in the first place.
 
AL-SL-AK

AL-SL-AK

Member
Jan 6, 2024
18
I'm selfishly happy people like him exist because it means I was able to obtain it for myself - someone who knows what they're feeling and doesn't want to be saved. I think the actively search out something means you're pretty determined.

However, people like KL confuse me. I paid Ā£800 for N over 10 years ago and that was after being scammed over a grand before I found the real deal. Having just paid Ā£70 for 1kg of SN, I was in disbelief when I realised I'd be paying basically pennies.

I'm not complaining but I just wonder why he would take the risk for such little money at a time? Surely he must know he could get caught? Was he really doing it because he felt compassion? I wouldn't risk a manslaughter charge for Ā£70 - not that I'd sell it regardless - or was it some weird power link
 
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jellie

jellie

Member
May 9, 2023
97
this is so weird... she chose to do what she did. everyone who decided to CTB made that decision themselves.
people should have the choice to CTB easily and with minimal pain. SN provides that.