Podcast No5 – 24 May 2020 The Lethal Salts – Part II

[Living sucks]

One thing I would seek to clarify is Dr Nitschke's statement from the podcast that:

"In fact [SN is] a fairly happy hypoxia because of the fact that there's no accumulation of carbon dioxide...in this instant nitrite brings about a happy hypoxic death".​

I think this has the risk of possibly being misinterpreted by both listeners there and members here. I will note that I am addressing this statement on face value and haven't listened to earlier podcasts where he says he has discussed 'happy hypoxia' previously.

Hypoxia from accumulation of carbon dioxide, such as that caused by suffocation, is distressing and 'unhappy' due to increasing carbon dioxide levels being what triggers our feelings of oxygen starvation and survival instinct.

Hypoxia from the methemoglobinemia caused by SN does not involve increasing carbon dioxide levels and so does not trigger any survival instinct. It is not distressing, and could be more accurately described as 'neutral'.

I think that describing the hypoxia from SN as 'happy' is potentially a little misleading, in that most people would equate a happy death as being from something that actually creates feelings of happiness or euphoria, such as opioids or cannabis. A death not involving either extreme of distress or euphoria would best be regarded as neutral, or perhaps even that contentious term 'peaceful'.

Note that this isn't just semantics. Especially on the forum, a minor misunderstanding of the intention behind a term can quickly spiral into cliques and arguments.

Do you own stock in SN?

(this truly is a joke, which I don't joke ever)

 

[autumnal]

Do you own stock in SN?

(this truly is a joke, which I don't joke ever)

LOL no, but I do plan to use it and I do agree with Dr Nitschke that it is a relatively peaceful method which serves as a good second-choice alternative to N when that cannot be obtained.

 

[Jumper Geo]

Thanks for posting interesting outcome could it be when your older you succumb to SN quicker because most of the reports I've seen is 20 minutes to lose consciousness, I have been witness to one girl who lost consciousness in 16 minutes and very peaceful before we lost contact, I wish they said what pre meds they used. Philip Nitschke said about vomiting and failure he obviously never read Stan;s guide to prepare two or three glasses, lol. I am still a bit baffled with the Propranolol PH said to take 2 grams then dropped it to 1 gram and mix it with the SN and swallow but it takes 30/60 minutes for it to start working although this would be reduced by taking it in liquid form but still I can't see it having an immediate effect maybe knock 10 minutes of but you would be unconscious by then.

Anyway thanks to PN and the PPH as we wouldn't have SN without them.

Cheers

Geo

 

[autumnal]

I caught that bit too and found the wording to be a bit off as well. Neutral does seem a bit more appropriate in this regard.

Well spotted

True enough.
I guess it just seemed less than expected but it is what it is, somewhat of a limited audience so probably not a huge budget. Access to the forum and suppliers was probably worth the cost of the book, I have wasted larger sums of money and received a lot less in return.
Peace/hugs

Also I'm no business expert, but I would assume that running a business which skirts so close to the law in many situations probably involves more costly overheads than one which is legally unremarkable. Also, let's not forget that experienced doctors tend to command relatively high salaries partly as a reflection of the many years of education they went through, and during which they earned no salary. There's no reason this wouldn't also be the case for a doctor who has been through all that education and then presumably also burned bridges in terms of returning to medicine due to his stance and practices on euthanasia. Both these factors might explain the higher cost of the book compared to a self-help book on a less controversial topic.

 

[MsMaudlin]

The music on those podcasts always makes me smile :-)

 

[morningdew]

hes a good salesman. So he "heard" it was peaceful. Kinda like trump "heard" hydroxychloroquine cured corona

 

[Alec]

Thank you so much for posting it!

Love,
—Alec.

 

[autumnal]

hes a good salesman. So he "heard" it was peaceful. Kinda like trump "heard" hydroxychloroquine cured corona

Wait...are you seriously equating Dr Nitschke's medical knowledge or overall credibility with that of Donald Trump? That's a pretty long bow to draw!

As for calling him 'a good salesman', you do realise that he in no way benefits financially from SN being sold or used as a method? And by promoting SN as a suicide method, he effectively directs those people away from methods he does have a financial or personal interest in, such as Pegasos, Sarco and Max Dog Brewing? And by publicly endorsing SN in the freely-available podcasts, if anything he makes it less likely for people to need to purchase his book?

Honestly, the amount of seemingly unfounded anti-Nitschke sentiment on this forum (of all places!) is just stupefying.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I fear he is cherry picking, since most members who kept responding in their goodbye threads were conscious for much longer than five minutes, and the ones that were reported by other members who were present on the phone/ on Skype also reported longer times until unconsciousness. This is why I dislike PN –

 

[Yomyom]

Honestly, the amount of seemingly unfounded anti-Nitschke sentiment on this forum (of all places!) is just stupefying.

Besides my personal opinion on Philip
You got to admit that there is something weird
He basically Builds a cult based on death in his image, and becomes a kind of monopoly that involves suicide, his behavior and his organization is so disgusting By putting us outside he became the god to decide who will win a peaceful death and who will fucked up

 

[autumnal]

I fear he is cherry picking, since most members who kept responding in their goodbye threads were conscious for much longer than five minutes, and the ones that were reported by other members who were present on the phone/ on Skype also reported longer times until unconsciousness. This is why I dislike PN –

To be fair, in his timelines he is talking about the average scenario. There will always be outliers in almost everything in life. Additionally, his accounts likely involve people who follow the PPH method exactly. If there is one thing we learn from anecdotes on this forum, it's that a lot of people seem unable or unwilling to do this for varying reasons, some legitimate and some impulsive. Additionally, his clearly stated audience are seniors and/or the seriously ill. Indeed, he restricts book sales and membership based upon these criteria. So such individuals are more likely to progress to unconsciousness and death more quickly than a younger or relatively healthy person.

As a scientist, the only anecdotal accounts he draws from are going to be those he considers empirically credible, which to my understanding are those he hears from real-world sources who (presumably) identify themselves in correspondence, or are at least willing to do so. As such, he would be inclined to give relatively little credibility to online accounts that could be completely fabricated. That's not to say I believe that people's death stories here are fake, but they do by necessity have less credibility than those which are de-anonymized.

Personally, I would be far more inclined to believe in the above reasons for any timeframe discrepancies than the suggestion that he is somehow 'cherry picking' anecdotes for his own benefit, especially because of the fact that as previously stated he has little to gain financially from SN.

 

[morningdew]

Wait...are you seriously equating Dr Nitschke's medical knowledge or overall credibility with that of Donald Trump? That's a pretty long bow to draw!

As for calling him 'a good salesman', you do realise that he in no way benefits financially from SN being sold or used as a method? And by promoting SN as a suicide method, he effectively directs those people away from methods he does have a financial or personal interest in, such as Pegasos, Sarco and Max Dog Brewing? And by publicly endorsing SN in the freely-available podcasts, if anything he makes it less likely for people to need to purchase his book?

Honestly, the amount of seemingly unfounded anti-Nitschke sentiment on this forum (of all places!) is just stupefying.

Let me help you understand
1. He chats on the podcast to promote his handbook. Just like authors go on joe rogan to promote their books. When asked a question he gives a short answer then suggest the listener read his handbook (which we all know is not free, has generated millions and serves as a promotion tool for anything else he is involved with)
2. He is selling a fairytale that you will be out in 5 minutes and die peacefully in your sleep. "you need to read the handbook if your serious about this method". Again, he is just selling the handbook.
3. What most of us have "heard" on this forum is that it take a long time to pass out (just as another posted in this thread stated) and many have called for help because of the pain and other side effects.

 

[autumnal]

Besides my personal opinion on Philip
You got to admit that there is something weird
He basically Builds a cult based on death in his image, and becomes a kind of monopoly that involves suicide, his behavior and his organization is so disgusting By putting us outside he became the god to decide who will win a peaceful death and who will fucked up

OK wow, this whole thing is going to need some unpacking. Firstly, 'Besides [your] pesonal opinion on Philip'? With all due respect, your entire response seems to be nothing more than your personal opinions.

Death and especially euthanasia are still largely taboo topics in society. Accordingly, someone who is active and a pioneer in these fields is almost guaranteed to appear at least somewhat 'weird'. Additionally, the amount of flack and attacks they cop from conservative, religious and anti-euthanasia sources means they are probably going to have somewhat of a quirky or eccentric coping style in general.

'A cult'? What makes you consider Exit International a cult? Just because it inspires passion and devotion in its supporters doesn't make it a cult. For those who are elderly or terminally ill, who have been suffering for a long period and for whom society generally doesn't support euthanasia, the existence of an organisation which supports euthanasia is bound to be a source of intense gratitude and support. Calling Exit International a cult merely for this reason would be like calling Sanctioned Suicide a cult because a lot of members say it changed their lives, gave them purpose and they would be lost if it closed down.

'Based on death' is presumably self-explanatory. But 'in his image'? Nitchske has almost always had to go it alone in his pursuit of euthanasia, especially in his early career in Australia where he briefly changed euthanasia laws in one State. The reluctance by the medical establishment to publicly support him, even if they shared his views in private, has meant that by definition the euthanasia movement he pioneered has been branded largely on him as an individual, in the same manner as it did for Dr Kevorkian in the US. That doesn't in any way mean he wanted to be one of the sole faces of the euthanasia movement.

He (or Exit International) hasn't 'become a kind of monopoly'. Monopoly implies a deterrence of competitors. Euthanasia is by definition a controversial and risky field to work in, both legally and commercially. There are relatively few euthanasia organisations in the world for this reason alone, not because Nitchske is somehow deliberately or inadvertently stopping other groups or companies from forming or being successful. From what I have read in the PPH and heard on podcasts, he seems willing to give due credit to other euthanasia organisations and (I would guess) recognises that the field is so scarce that they need to band together rather than compete in order to further the cause as a whole.

I'm genuinely not sure on what basis (other than the points you listed and I hopefully addressed above) that you consider 'his behavior and his organization is so disgusting'.

You then say 'By putting us outside he became the god to decide who will win a peaceful death and who will fucked up'. I'm not clear what you mean by 'putting us outside', unless perhaps you mean excluding some of us having access to his book (due to either lack of finances to buy it, or not meeting eligibility criteria).

You suggest he acts like 'God' in deciding who will 'win a peaceful death' and who will not. Again, I genuinely don't know on what rational or factual basis you are making this statement.

 

[MaybeSoon]

I found the podcast on podcast addict and listened to both episodes. Found it very comforting and has put my mind at rest about this method if I ever choose it.

As for his claim of being unconcious in 5 mintes, he was talking about a very elderly person, not the demographic here I'm sure. Besides what I've read here 5-20 minites seems the norm. Suppose it also depends on the regimen and other factors.

Will keep subscribed to the podcast, very interesting.

 

[autumnal]

Let me help you understand
1. He chats on the podcast to promote his handbook. Just like authors go on joe rogan to promote their books. When asked a question he gives a short answer then suggest the listener read his handbook (which we all know is not free, has generated millions and serves as a promotion tool for anything else he is involved with)
2. He is selling a fairytale that you will be out in 5 minutes and die peacefully in your sleep. "you need to read the handbook if your serious about this method". Again, he is just selling the handbook.
3. What most of us have "heard" on this forum is that it take a long time to pass out (just as another posted in this thread stated) and many have called for help because of the pain and other side effects.

Thank you for 'helping me understand'. Hopefully I can help you understand in return.

1. There is no reason why he shouldn't promote his handbook. This is both to make euthanasia available to more people (his altruistic reason) and to help sell copies (his financial reason). There is nothing incompatible about both having good intentions and making a living (or even making a profit). Presumably you wouldn't ask your own doctor to work for free? I don't know a heap about business, but if I had to guess I would not guess that his profits are in the 'millions', or that he even does what he does primarily for financial reward. There is also no reason why his own podcast shouldn't serve as a promotional tool, for both the altruistic and financial reasons mentioned.

2. I address any discrepancies between PPH timelines and anecdotal member experiences in a previous post. Furthermore, on the podcast he directs members to the handbook because it would be dangerously irresponsible to give complete SN instructions on the podcast medium. This includes because things can be missed on listening that can be double-checked on rereading, because some words and phrases can be misheard but are less likely to be misread, and because suicide by SN is a complex enough topic that it needs a comparatively lengthy chapter-length explanation rather than a snappy podcast-length summary. Additionally, he has financial reasons for directing people to the PPH. As explained above, this is not incompatible with also being altruistic. How would you feel if you spent years gaining a medical education, years more working in the field and then spent a lot of time writing a book, and then people criticized your right to sell that book and insisted you should give it away for free?

3. The main thing learned on this forum from anecdotal accounts is that most failure from SN involves people failing to follow the instructions. Although these instructions broaden from the PPH to include Stan's Guide, I will regard the two as similarly credible sources for the purposes of argument. The failure of people to properly follow their instructions is in no way a shortcoming of either Nitschke or Stan, and to suggest otherwise would be ridiculous.

 

[MaybeSoon]

Happy? FFS. I do wonder about PNs motivations and mental state sometimes.

He's using a term used by medical professionals.

 

[Yomyom]

OK wow, this whole thing is going to need some unpacking. Firstly, 'Besides [your] pesonal opinion on Philip'? With all due respect, your entire response seems to be nothing more than your personal opinions.

Death and especially euthanasia are still largely taboo topics in society. Accordingly, someone who is active and a pioneer in these fields is almost guaranteed to appear at least somewhat 'weird'. Additionally, the amount of flack and attacks they cop from conservative, religious and anti-euthanasia sources means they are probably going to have somewhat of a quirky or eccentric coping style in general.

'A cult'? What makes you consider Exit International a cult? Just because it inspires passion and devotion in its supporters doesn't make it a cult. For those who are elderly or terminally ill, who have been suffering for a long period and for whom society generally doesn't support euthanasia, the existence of an organisation which supports euthanasia is bound to be a source of intense gratitude and support. Calling Exit International a cult merely for this reason would be like calling Sanctioned Suicide a cult because a lot of members say it changed their lives, gave them purpose and they would be lost if it closed down.

'Based on death' is presumably self-explanatory. But 'in his image'? Nitchske has almost always had to go it alone in his pursuit of euthanasia, especially in his early career in Australia where he briefly changed euthanasia laws in one State. The reluctance by the medical establishment to publicly support him, even if they shared his views in private, has meant that by definition the euthanasia movement he pioneered has been branded largely on him as an individual, in the same manner as it did for Dr Kevorkian in the US. That doesn't in any way mean he wanted to be one of the sole faces of the euthanasia movement.

He (or Exit International) hasn't 'become a kind of monopoly'. Monopoly implies a deterrence of competitors. Euthanasia is by definition a controversial and risky field to work in, both legally and commercially. There are relatively few euthanasia organisations in the world for this reason alone, not because Nitchske is somehow deliberately or inadvertently stopping other groups or companies from forming or being successful. From what I have read in the PPH and heard on podcasts, he seems willing to give due credit to other euthanasia organisations and (I would guess) recognises that the field is so scarce that they need to band together rather than compete in order to further the cause as a whole.

I'm genuinely not sure on what basis (other than the points you listed and I hopefully addressed above) that you consider 'his behavior and his organization is so disgusting'.

You then say 'By putting us outside he became the god to decide who will win a peaceful death and who will fucked up'. I'm not clear what you mean by 'putting us outside', unless perhaps you mean excluding some of us having access to his book (due to either lack of finances to buy it, or not meeting eligibility criteria).

You suggest he acts like 'God' in deciding who will 'win a peaceful death' and who will not. Again, I genuinely don't know on what rational or factual basis you are making this statement.

Sorry, This is my nerves from my toxic experience with them.

But yet, exit don't accept people under 50 or people with mental health problems, without that forum (SS, here)I was destined to die in pain, so I don't have sympathy for him.

The books final exit and dignified dying you can buy basically at any age, what's the different in the peaceful pill?

I honestly think it's a cult, the membership, the exit forum With similar limitations to an intelligence organization.
When you Leeds a group of people and no one debating your Powers and the you gets too much Compliments, you probably leads a cult... (I have the same opinion about Richard Dawkins)

He is definitely acting like god, his saying always absolute, always too sure of himself

my personal opinion is simple- I hate Philip, I hate his organization And I think they represent an elite

Anyway, I'm very bad In presenting logical arguments, I can't really put it into words, although I understand your appreciation and respect for him
My experience with him is too bad for me to even start thinking on respecting him

 

[morningdew]

yo

Thank you for 'helping me understand'. Hopefully I can help you understand in return.

1. There is no reason why he shouldn't promote his handbook. This is both to make euthanasia available to more people (his altruistic reason) and to help sell copies (his financial reason). There is nothing incompatible about both having good intentions and making a living (or even making a profit). Presumably you wouldn't ask your own doctor to work for free? I don't know a heap about business, but if I had to guess I would not guess that his profits are in the 'millions', or that he even does what he does primarily for financial reward. There is also no reason why his own podcast shouldn't serve as a promotional tool, for both the altruistic and financial reasons mentioned.

2. I address any discrepancies between PPH timelines and anecdotal member experiences in a previous post. Furthermore, on the podcast he directs members to the handbook because it would be dangerously irresponsible to give complete SN instructions on the podcast medium. This includes because things can be missed on listening that can be double-checked on rereading, because some words and phrases can be misheard but are less likely to be misread, and because suicide by SN is a complex enough topic that it needs a comparatively lengthy chapter-length explanation rather than a snappy podcast-length summary. Additionally, he has financial reasons for directing people to the PPH. As explained above, this is not incompatible with also being altruistic. How would you feel if you spent years gaining a medical education, years more working in the field and then spent a lot of time writing a book, and then people criticized your right to sell that book and insisted you should give it away for free?

3. The main thing learned on this forum from anecdotal accounts is that most failure from SN involves people failing to follow the instructions. Although these instructions broaden from the PPH to include Stan's Guide, I will regard the two as similarly credible sources for the purposes of argument. The failure of people to properly follow their instructions is in no way a shortcoming of either Nitschke or Stan, and to suggest otherwise would be ridiculous.

you sure do got ya a nice avatar and footer image. excellent use of bold and underline text. kinda of new here but you sure do make some good points. You go on now, have yourself a real nas day

 

[autumnal]

Sorry, This is my nerves from my toxic experience with them.

But yet, exit don't accept people under 50 or people with mental health problems, without that forum (SS, here)I was destined to die in pain, so I don't have sympathy for him.

The books final exit and dignified dying you can buy basically at any age, what's the different in the peaceful pill?

I honestly think it's a cult, the membership, the exit forum With similar limitations to an intelligence organization.
When you Leeds a group of people and no one debating your Powers and the you gets too much Compliments, you probably leads a cult... (I have the same opinion about Richard Dawkins)

He is definitely acting like god, his saying always absolute, always too sure of himself

my personal opinion is simple- I hate Philip, I hate his organization And I think they represent an elite

Anyway, I'm very bad In presenting logical arguments, I can't really put it into words, although I understand your appreciation and respect for him
My experience with him is too bad for me to even start thinking on respecting him

Yes, to be honest I got the distinct impression from your post that there was more behind it than you cared to admit. Especially the last two points which spiraled off into a bit of a rant that was high on passion but low on clarity.

I would imagine Exit International have strict elegibility criteria for one or two reasons. I cannot speak as to which of them (or both) is the case. Firstly, they may genuinely believe that certain groups should not access euthanasia, such as the (solely) mentally ill or non-seniors. Whether we agree with these criteria or not, they are entirely free to have them. Despite them seeming restrictive to us, they might be likened to us on Sanctioned Suicide not believing that a child has the capacity to choose euthanasia or join this forum, for example. Most things in life exist on a continuum, and everyone chooses to draw the line somewhere. The second reason may be more of a strategic and defensive one. Exit International might privately believe that the mentally ill or non-seniors should have access to euthanasia, but they might also be aware that this position is less palatable to society in general, and might bring more negative attention, lawsuits or criminal prosecution their way. As such, they may be choosing their battles, and providing euthanasia advice and services to the demographics likely to cause the least controversy. And also, let's not forget, the most likely statistically to need euthanasia.

Beyond that, I understand that a lot of your opinion comes from your personal experience and emotional response to it, and as such it doesn't facilitate nor warrant a logical critique on my part. Personally, I do find Exit International's restriction on access to the PPH frustrating, and share your view that the forum providing information on methods is a real blessing.

you sure do got ya a nice avatar and footer image. excellent use of bold and underline text. kinda of new here but you sure do make some good points. You go on now, have yourself a real nas day

Wow, that was a vastly more positive response than I was expecting! Thank you

 

[Borabora]

Exit International founders give update on DeBreather, Nitrite Salt & CNN case of C.S here: Podcast #7 June 14 2020

 

[disabledlife]

Whether they have strict access or not, they have reasons to do so. However, they should answer my emails instead of leaving them unanswered for weeks. I come to hate this association and I now find it justified to see the free pirate versions of this book. Do they have anything to blame for not responding? Normally, if we are respectful of others, we answer otherwise the frustrated person will look elsewhere and will not buy anything, worse still will love the competition or the pirates.

 

[GerMann]

disabledlife
Did you get at least the info which acid reducer is useful?

 

[disabledlife]

I am sorry not to be able to answer you, I would like to know and answer you but I am even lost, I have just discovered this forum and I thank that it can exist. I'm having trouble knowing exactly what an acid reducer is? A stomach medicine? I also seek to improve the assimilation of N for a better Ctb.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

One thing I would seek to clarify is Dr Nitschke's statement from the podcast that:

"In fact [SN is] a fairly happy hypoxia because of the fact that there's no accumulation of carbon dioxide...in this instant nitrite brings about a happy hypoxic death".​

I think this has the risk of possibly being misinterpreted by both listeners there and members here. I will note that I am addressing this statement on face value and haven't listened to earlier podcasts where he says he has discussed 'happy hypoxia' previously.

Hypoxia from accumulation of carbon dioxide, such as that caused by suffocation, is distressing and 'unhappy' due to increasing carbon dioxide levels being what triggers our feelings of oxygen starvation and survival instinct.

Hypoxia from the methemoglobinemia caused by SN does not involve increasing carbon dioxide levels and so does not trigger any survival instinct. It is not distressing, and could be more accurately described as 'neutral'.

I think that describing the hypoxia from SN as 'happy' is potentially a little misleading, in that most people would equate a happy death as being from something that actually creates feelings of happiness or euphoria, such as opioids or cannabis. A death not involving either extreme of distress or euphoria would best be regarded as neutral, or perhaps even that contentious term 'peaceful'.

Note that this isn't just semantics. Especially on the forum, a minor misunderstanding of the intention behind a term can quickly spiral into cliques and arguments.

I questioned this wording as well.

Wait...are you seriously equating Dr Nitschke's medical knowledge or overall credibility with that of Donald Trump? That's a pretty long bow to draw!

As for calling him 'a good salesman', you do realise that he in no way benefits financially from SN being sold or used as a method? And by promoting SN as a suicide method, he effectively directs those people away from methods he does have a financial or personal interest in, such as Pegasos, Sarco and Max Dog Brewing? And by publicly endorsing SN in the freely-available podcasts, if anything he makes it less likely for people to need to purchase his book?

Honestly, the amount of seemingly unfounded anti-Nitschke sentiment on this forum (of all places!) is just stupefying.

I wish you were still here today as I'd like to hear your argument about Philip in 2022.