Method plastic bag + citric acid and baking soda?

[Soul]

I'm puzzled by the man's set-up in the article, possibly because I'm on my phone and the photos are awfully small. It looks like he had the "rubber string" around his neck, but the opening of the bag was on the top of his head; and that he was found face down but the cups of liquid weren't spilled.

I don't know what to make of all that. Any insights will be very welcome.

 

[Aleksandra]

If this is reliable, it might just be the easiest method ever. I use baking soda a lot for cleaning and I add lemon juice (or vinegar) to it when I need to scrub something particularly stubborn. The reaction is instant and I don't think there's any need to wait for the mixture to produce enough CO2 or anything. If I knew the exact doses I wouldn't bother with complicated gadgets and procedures. All I'd do is lie down and put a plastic bag over my head, dump a box of baking soda in the bag, add a cup/bottle of vinegar, and immediately seal the bag with gorilla tape. If I were worried about suffering while I wait for the concentration of CO2 to become strong enough to knock me out, I might just hold my breath for as long as I can. I figure the more baking soda and vinegar you use, the quicker the process. Both are so cheap, I would be overjoyed if this actually works.

i suppose if someone has successfully done it, it's not unachievable! and someone above has put their calculations in. it's not a lot at all. and even if you were to suffer i guess you'd be long knocked out before your SI properly kicks in

I'm puzzled by the man's set-up in the article, possibly because I'm on my phone and the photos are awfully small. It looks like he had the "rubber string" around his neck, but the opening of the bag was on the top of his head; and that he was found face down but the cups of liquid weren't spilled.

I don't know what to make of all that. Any insights will be very welcome.

i'm thinking they removed the bag for the photos? if not then perhaps one end he would have his head under and the other for his homemade co2. that's what i'm struggling to figure out is how he managed to get the gas into the bag

 

[Battered_Seoul]

I'm puzzled by the man's set-up in the article, possibly because I'm on my phone and the photos are awfully small. It looks like he had the "rubber string" around his neck, but the opening of the bag was on the top of his head; and that he was found face down but the cups of liquid weren't spilled.

I don't know what to make of all that. Any insights will be very welcome.

I am also struggling. The image of the glasses seems to show two distinct compounds. Had they even mixed? Also, where were the glasses in relation to his head?

 

[Lennox]

i looked up your method of creating CO with chemicals, it's very relatively cheap. mixing of sulphuric and formic acid in a enclosed space, could work. also i heard if you do it via fumes from dry ice it's also quite fatal

Yes, indeed. Dry ice releases CO2 though, not CO.

 

[Battered_Seoul]

i suppose if someone has successfully done it, it's not unachievable! and someone above has put their calculations in. it's not a lot at all. and even if you were to suffer i guess you'd be long knocked out before your SI properly kicks in

i'm thinking they removed the bag for the photos? if not then perhaps one end he would have his head under and the other for his homemade co2. that's what i'm struggling to figure out is how he managed to get the gas into the bag

What's the viability of pouring a metric shit tonne of citric acid/baking soda into a small Asian style wetroom, bypassing the bag and trying to increase the CO2 concentration of the entire room?

 

[kypnrp]

Re-did the math for vinegar and baking soda. Also seems feasible, you'd need 85ml (about half a glass) of vinegar mixed 73.7g of soda, if the gas is completely released inside a 5L plastic bag.

Let me know if you all want me to stop doing that if it's not useful. I would have added it to my previous comment, but I couldn't figure out how to edit it.

Spoiler: Math

Assuming a 25% concentration of CO2 is almost instantly lethal as per my previous comment
Mixing 60g of acetic acid and 84g of baking soda produces 22.4L of CO2.
Inside a 5L bag, we want to produce 1.67L of CO2 for the gas concentration to be 25%.

60g acid ----- 22.4L gas
x acid --------- 1.67L gas

60g * 1.67 = 22.4x
x = 4.48g

Assuming 5% acetic acid vinegar by volume, each liter of vinegar has 50 ml of acetic acid. Its density is 1.049g/ml, so that'll weight 52.5g (per liter of vinegar). For each 60g of acetic acid, we 84g of baking soda. So, for 52.5g, we'd need 73.7g. But we only need 4.48g of acid for this reaction, because we only want 1.67L of gas rather than 22.4L.

52.5g acid ----- 1000ml vinegar
4.48g acid ----- x vinegar

52.5x = 1000ml * 4.48
x = 85ml

 

[Subhuman]

Re-did the math for vinegar and baking soda. Also seems feasible, you'd need 85ml (about half a glass) of vinegar mixed 73.7g of soda, if the gas is completely released inside a 5L plastic bag.

Let me know if you all want me to stop doing that if it's not useful. I would have added it to my previous comment, but I couldn't figure out how to edit it.

Spoiler: Math

Assuming a 25% concentration of CO2 is almost instantly lethal as per my previous comment
Mixing 60g of acetic acid and 84g of baking soda produces 22.4L of CO2.
Inside a 5L bag, we want to produce 1.67L of CO2 for the gas concentration to be 25%.

60g acid ----- 22.4L gas
x acid --------- 1.67L gas

60g * 1.67 = 22.4x
x = 4.48g

Assuming 5% acetic acid vinegar by volume, each liter of vinegar has 50 ml of acetic acid. Its density is 1.049g/ml, so that'll weight 52.5g (per liter of vinegar). For each 60g of acetic acid, we 84g of baking soda. So, for 52.5g, we'd need 73.7g. But we only need 4.48g of acid for this reaction.

52.5g acid ----- 1000ml vinegar
4.48g acid ----- x vinegar

52.5x = 1000ml * 4.48
x = 85ml

No, please keep going. I know I could never figure this stuff out on my own.

 

[woxihuanni]

I think this method should be pinned at the top for people who are short on resources (which is how it's discovered in the first place). The good thing is, good luck controlling the substances even if there was an epidemic of suicides from it.

 

[kypnrp]

What's the viability of pouring a metric shit tonne of citric acid/baking soda into a small Asian style wetroom, bypassing the bag and trying to increase the CO2 concentration of the entire room?

Not very viable :(
We'd be looking at more than 30kg of baking soda and 30kg of citric acid.

Spoiler: Math

As per my first comment with math: 6g baking soda + 7.2g citric acid = 1.67L of carbon dioxide
Let's assume a very small 3m x 3m x 3m bathroom. That's 27m³ or 27.000L.
We'd want to release at least 9.000L of CO2 for it to be lethal (>25% concentration)

6g soda ---- 1.67L gas
x soda ------ 9 000L gas

6g * 9000 = 1.67 x
x = 32 335g

Citric acid: 7.2 / 6 x 32 335g = 38 802g

 

[Battered_Seoul]

Not very viable :(
We'd be looking at more than 30kg of baking soda and 30kg of citric acid.

Spoiler: Math

As per my first comment with math: 6g baking soda + 7.2g citric acid = 1.67L of carbon dioxide
Let's assume a very small 3m x 3m x 3m bathroom. That's 27m³ or 27.000L.
We'd want to release at least 9.000L of CO2 for it to be lethal (>25% concentration)

6g soda ---- 1.67L gas
x soda ------ 9 000L gas

6g * 9000 = 1.67 x
x = 32 335g

Citric acid: 7.2 / 6 x 32 335g = 38 802g

Hmm, that's quite a handful. Cheers for the Maths!

 

[Aleksandra]

Re-did the math for vinegar and baking soda. Also seems feasible, you'd need 85ml (about half a glass) of vinegar mixed 73.7g of soda, if the gas is completely released inside a 5L plastic bag.

Let me know if you all want me to stop doing that if it's not useful. I would have added it to my previous comment, but I couldn't figure out how to edit it.

Spoiler: Math

Assuming a 25% concentration of CO2 is almost instantly lethal as per my previous comment
Mixing 60g of acetic acid and 84g of baking soda produces 22.4L of CO2.
Inside a 5L bag, we want to produce 1.67L of CO2 for the gas concentration to be 25%.

60g acid ----- 22.4L gas
x acid --------- 1.67L gas

60g * 1.67 = 22.4x
x = 4.48g

Assuming 5% acetic acid vinegar by volume, each liter of vinegar has 50 ml of acetic acid. Its density is 1.049g/ml, so that'll weight 52.5g (per liter of vinegar). For each 60g of acetic acid, we 84g of baking soda. So, for 52.5g, we'd need 73.7g. But we only need 4.48g of acid for this reaction, because we only want 1.67L of gas rather than 22.4L.

52.5g acid ----- 1000ml vinegar
4.48g acid ----- x vinegar

52.5x = 1000ml * 4.48
x = 85ml

i reckon if you were to mix the substance in the bag, that would work well. i just can't put together how this person managed all this with the substance outside the bag, how he managed to gather the gas AND not feel the full effects of it, unless it was literally a few seconds worth of discomfort. this case is very odd to me

 

[Battered_Seoul]

Not very viable :(
We'd be looking at more than 30kg of baking soda and 30kg of citric acid.

Spoiler: Math

As per my first comment with math: 6g baking soda + 7.2g citric acid = 1.67L of carbon dioxide
Let's assume a very small 3m x 3m x 3m bathroom. That's 27m³ or 27.000L.
We'd want to release at least 9.000L of CO2 for it to be lethal (>25% concentration)

6g soda ---- 1.67L gas
x soda ------ 9 000L gas

6g * 9000 = 1.67 x
x = 32 335g

Citric acid: 7.2 / 6 x 32 335g = 38 802g

Apologies to exploit your Maths services again, but if I was using a disposable CO2 aquarium charger to release the CO2, what size would be advisable.

 

[Soul]

Not very viable :(
We'd be looking at more than 30kg of baking soda and 30kg of citric acid.

Spoiler: Math

As per my first comment with math: 6g baking soda + 7.2g citric acid = 1.67L of carbon dioxide
Let's assume a very small 3m x 3m x 3m bathroom. That's 27m³ or 27.000L.
We'd want to release at least 9.000L of CO2 for it to be lethal (>25% concentration)

6g soda ---- 1.67L gas
x soda ------ 9 000L gas

6g * 9000 = 1.67 x
x = 32 335g

Citric acid: 7.2 / 6 x 32 335g = 38 802g

Well wait - 30 kg is considerably less than a metric shit tonne. Seems worth keeping in the thread for communal possibilities.

Would people and animals in the vicinity be hurt by that-size belch of co2?

i reckon if you were to mix the substance in the bag, that would work well. i just can't put together how this person managed all this with the substance outside the bag, how he managed to gather the gas AND not feel the full effects of it, unless it was literally a few seconds worth of discomfort. this case is very odd to me

I reckon the police took the glasses out of the bag to photograph them. But why they look like two different substances is a mystery.

 

[Aleksandra]

i think i'm going to try it, ill keep the thread updated i guess. if i make it out alive i'll definitely let you guys know if there was any discomfort.

 

[Subhuman]

i think i'm going to try it, ill keep the thread updated i guess. if i make it out alive i'll definitely let you guys know if there was any discomfort.

Are you going with 73g baking soda and 85ml vinegar or will you use more than that to make sure?

 

[woxihuanni]

Is any sort of vinegar good? What do we need to pay attention to?

 

[Aleksandra]

Are you going with 73g baking soda and 85ml vinegar or will you use more than that to make sure?

i'm getting what he essentially used, citric acid. you can get it at any pharmacy really. i'll try those measurements, i trust the maths of it

 

[Soul]

Where I live citric acid is sold as a powder. Vinegar seems simpler, but what percentage would be right?

 

[Aleksandra]

Where I live citric acid is sold as a powder. Vinegar seems simpler, but what percentage would be right?

i found this whilst researching;
"If you have to euthanize a pet that is seriously injured or ill, this method can easily be employed using a plastic bag and some household chemicals. The reaction of vinegar and baking soda produces large amounts of carbon dioxide. A pet's head can be covered with a loosely sealed plastic bag with a hose coming out of it and going into a second container. Inside the second container, the vinegar and baking soda is mixed, and it reacts, creating large amounts of gas, which is forced through the hose as a result of the pressure inside of the second container. The gas will fill the plastic bag (make sure that the extra gas has a way of leaving the bag so the bag doesn't explode) and eventually replace most if not all of the oxygen. Once the reaction is done, seal the bag off as best you can and allow the pet to inhale the carbon dioxide until it is safely deceased. The process must not be interrupted for any reason since oxygen deprivation is known to cause severe brain damage. The time that the process of euthanization takes depends on the concentration of carbon dioxide and the physical size of the animal."
i don't know if i'm stupid or if it sounds a bit more complicated than i thought. obviously we are bigger than dogs but you know
another interesting comment from someone, they suggested every cup and tablespoon of vinegar and baking soda creates a gallons worth of co2. its a common peaceful euthanasia for animals. damn

 

[GeorgeJL]

I like the looks of this baking-soda+citric-acid technique a lot - thanks very much for posting it, and for liberating the article. I'm CO2-retentive, which makes inert-gas methods unpeaceful at best, but I wonder if it would matter in this case.

@zajebistakaczka, if you're serious about having bad lungs you may also need to be aware of the inappropriacy of inert-gas methods.

On the other hand, when I was in a hypercapnic coma last year I enjoyed it immensely.

How does being CO2 retentive relate to inert gas method?

 

[kypnrp]

Apologies to exploit your Maths services again, but if I was using a disposable CO2 aquarium charger to release the CO2, what size would be advisable.

I could not find data on how much CO2 is inside, so I'm unsure if the amount in there would be enough to avoid suffering for too long. I wouldn't risk it

Is any sort of vinegar good? What do we need to pay attention to?

If you're going by my math, make sure it's at least 5% citric acid, that's fairly standard and also should be written somewhere in the product

Are you going with 73g baking soda and 85ml vinegar or will you use more than that to make sure?

Assuming I'm correct, you can just choose any amount greater or equal to (but not less than!!!) 73g of baking soda. Then, multiply what you've chosen by 1.17, that's the minimum amount of vinegar (in ml) you'll need.

For example, say that I chose 100g of baking soda. 100 x 1.17 = 117. So, that would go with 117ml (or more, but not any less!) of vinegar.

The more, the merrier.

i reckon if you were to mix the substance in the bag, that would work well. i just can't put together how this person managed all this with the substance outside the bag, how he managed to gather the gas AND not feel the full effects of it, unless it was literally a few seconds worth of discomfort. this case is very odd to me

I'd like to clear up some things about this method. If you were to dump CO2 slowly into the area you're breathing air from or if you were to put an insufficient amount (<25% of the total volume), that would be extremely uncomfortable and you'd gasp for air for possibly minutes.

But this is not what is being done here. We're aiming to produce a >25% CO2 concentration, which should render one unconscious in a few breaths (Source: https://www.ivhhn.org/information/information-different-volcanic-gases/carbon-dioxide). If you check the suicide paper, you'll see that they say the guy produced a high concentration of CO2 and passed out very quickly.

In summary, there might be suffering. But if there is, it will be fairly quick.

 

[Throwaway8675309]

Lots of questions for this method... Hmm...

 

[Soul]

How does being CO2 retentive relate to inert gas method?

It means one never expels enough of the co2 from one's lungs to give the other gas room to do its peaceful stuff. What I read sounds like that means one's hypercapnic alarm goes wild, which isn't the way inert gas methods are supposed to work.

But doesn't it seem like this citric-acid-and-baking-soda method would fit right in with being co2-retentive?

Why haven't we heard of this before? Why isn't it in the PPH or 5LA? Is it too good to be true?? Is someone somewhere reading this thread and weeping with laughter at our eagerness???

@GeorgeJL, what's required to get a thread in the List of Resources?

 

[Subhuman]

Why haven't we heard of this before? Why isn't it in the PPH or 5LA? Is it too good to be true?? Is someone somewhere reading this thread and weeping with laughter at our eagerness???

I'm asking myself the same questions. This seems to be the cheapest and easiest method in the world. It does sound too good to be true but I sure hope it isn't

 

[Aleksandra]

it's a very popular method to euthanise rodents. they have a bag filled with baking powder and they have vinegar in a cup, hose coming out from the bag and into a chamber. you're supposed to slowly pour the vinegar(whilst the bag is sealed) and the rodent would fall unconscious, then you pour the rest in and it would die within minutes. would be much more helpful to know if this has been done on a horse as they're much larger and would be easier to calculate. judging by the photos the person who carried out this method didn't use a lot at all, the paper states nothing odd was found in him but edema on his organs (inflammation basically), nothing else was really out of the ordinary. i posted above this method was also carried it via suicide-murder, "Inhalation of pure CO2 ensured their rapid unconsciousness due to hypercapnia and severe anoxia", so @kypnrp youre right. for this to work we'd need to generate a high concentration of co2 for this to be as effective as nitrogen/helium

 

[woxihuanni]

it's a very popular method to euthanise rodents. they have a bag filled with baking powder and they have vinegar in a cup, hose coming out from the bag and into a chamber. you're supposed to slowly pour the vinegar(whilst the bag is sealed) and the rodent would fall unconscious, then you pour the rest in and it would die within minutes. would be much more helpful to know if this has been done on a horse as they're much larger and would be easier to calculate. judging by the photos the person who carried out this method didn't use a lot at all, the paper states nothing odd was found in him but edema on his organs (inflammation basically), nothing else was really out of the ordinary. i posted above this method was also carried it via suicide-murder, "Inhalation of pure CO2 ensured their rapid unconsciousness due to hypercapnia and severe anoxia", so @kypnrp youre right. for this to work we'd need to generate a high concentration of co2 for this to be as effective as nitrogen/helium

It kills me that animals get a peaceful exit but we don't. I don't know what sort of fucking prison this is.

 

[Aleksandra]

It kills me that animals get a peaceful exit but we don't. I don't know what sort of fucking prison this is.

don't lose hope! this method may be the holy grail of methods haha. it's probably not talked about because no one besides him has thought hey, people do this to rats so it should work on me.

 

[woxihuanni]

don't lose hope! this method may be the holy grail of methods haha. it's probably not talked about because no one besides him has thought hey, people do this to rats so it should work on me.

Indeed, kudos for hanging on and doing the research! You have both avoided a botch and given hope to many people. It amazes me how much work is produced here to get out, even though most of us are suffering to the degree that daily life is a burden.

 

[Subhuman]

What is the purpose of the hose? So that the bag doesn't explode? That complicates things a bit. I hope it's not a necessary component of this method since the guy in the article didn't use one but was still successful

 

[woxihuanni]

What is the purpose of the hose? So that the bag doesn't explode? That complicates things a bit. I hope it's not a necessary component of this method since the guy in the article didn't use one but was still successful

Yup, soon as there is any contraption involved, I am rather worried. Maybe use something solid, I don't know. What container can we easily get and fit in?