derpyderpins
Proud Normie
- Sep 19, 2023
- 1,533
We all get annoyed with "pro-lifers," people who think suicide or euthanasia is bad in every situation no matter what and that no one should be able to choose ctb for themselves. Well, equally annoying - particularly from a recovery standpoint - is the increasing Pro-Death sentiment we encounter on this site: people who say life can never be good and death is always the answer, or at least generally dismiss the idea that other people can legitimately experience life differently than they do.
Negativity is to be expected on a website that is in favor of the right to peaceful suicide. A lot of people are hurting. But there is a difference between wanting ctb for yourself and insisting that ctb would be best for everyone. Example:
The generalized statements about people with jobs, people who are parents, people with disabilities, people with certain physical characteristics, people in different IQ categories, etc. are all indirectly aimed at others, intentionally or not. If you are trying to recover and see comments about your category, on a site where you're looking for support . . . it's a punch in the gut.
I want to be clear, this is not meant to disparage. I feel incredibly sad for those who embrace this way of thinking. You see, it resembles a cult. I have seen people who were down but not so far gone fall into this mindset and spiral from there.
In this post, I want to examine the ideology, explain how it comes about, discuss why it gets such a strong hold on people, and try to convince those in recovery to embrace pity over annoyance. I am also trying, as part of my effort to theorycraft recovery, to figure out what on earth can be done for people who embrace these beliefs, if anything. The motivation for the post is that some very pure-hearted people have been highly discouraged recently, and I want to offer an alternative view for them. This post does not aim to call anyone out or debate these views (although I'm always open to discussion, this is simply not the venue.) The post is aimed at people who are attempting recovery who get discouraged seeing this stuff, not people who believe this stuff (again, we can discuss separately if you'd like). As a disclaimer, I in no way mean to minimize anyone's pain. My belief is that anyone can live a fulfilling life or be unsatisfied with life and choose ctb for themselves regardless of situation.
What do I mean by Pro-Death?
Pro-Death goes beyond wanting death for oneself. They don't necessarily wish death on others, but they think preferring death is always logical, and they think anyone who doesn't come to that conclusion is mistaken. And, most importantly, they seem to be bothered if you suggest there are good parts to life and that it's possible to be fulfilled while being rational. Of course, the group is not a monolith, but they probably believe at least some of these things:
I could go on, but if you are a regular on this site you get what I'm talking about. Other commonalities are overuse of words such as "objectively," "rationally," "logically," and stuff about how we're biological machines rather than creatures with higher consciousness.
The overlap with incel talk says something important: this is an ideology of defeat. They have been defeated, have given up, and are looking to explain how the defeat was not their fault. (I personally do not believe the defeat was permanent. As the Positive Paul of the forum, I believe in them, but this is from their subconscious perspective.)
An Unstable Foundation
A common occurrence these days:
I want to emphasize, again, that I'm not making fun of anyone. This doesn't mean if you've bought into Pro-Death you aren't smart. It's simply a position that's impossible to defend. If I enter a debate, and the other person is assigned the position that "it is impossible to add two numbers and have the results be an even number," and I point out "well, 1+1=2, which is even," I haven't really out-debated them, right?
It's pain avoidance. Make no mistake, the initial motivation is fear: fear of failure, rejection, etc. Arrogance is common, but deep down is self-hatred. They know it's all wrong, but their strategy of hiding from pain won't let them face it.
The arguments are built top-down, starting with the answer and justifying it later. It leads to a very shaky structure of beliefs. If any one of the legs are knocked out, the whole thing collapses. It's aiming to avoid all pain. First, retreat from fears by withdrawing from society. But, there are still bad feelings: guilt, self-doubt, loneliness, and more. The beliefs are meant to negate these. "I never asked to be born" eliminates the guilt of siphoning off people, because an unfathomably awful wrong was committed against those born into this world, mandating reparations.
To say being birthed is an absolute harm, life must be an absolute bad. If life could be good, it could be reasonable to give birth. This leads to the extreme antinatalist views: the worship of "non-existence." If we never lived, nothing would be bad or wrong, and pain is so overwhelming that non-existence is "objectively" superior.
Unfortunately, there is overwhelming evidence that lots of people think their life is something worthwhile. But for Pro-Death life must be objectively bad, so that birthing people is objectively bad, so that the world owes someone born for the cruelty of existence. So, happy people are dismissed, first, by converting those on the edge of despair:
State repeatedly that most of life is work, and the evil system takes most of the money, so life is a pointless lie, etc. In fact, workers are slaves. A slave's life can't be good, right? Work = modern day slavery with no nuance. It's very discouraging to hear, and even more of a mood killer once you start saying it to yourself. If you have to work, you are a slave, therefore your life is bad, therefore non-existence would be better, therefore you being born was a crime and you are owed support for life in reciprocation.
But some will still insist life is good, not believing all work is the same as slavery. It is unconvincing to say these people are wrong in their own evaluation of their happiness. The Pro-Death now need some other explanation: brainwashing, programming, the matrix, NPCs, etc. 'These people must be delusional and irrational, or not smart enough, falling victim to propaganda.' I'm repeating myself, but this is a necessity, because if a rational, unbrainwashed person can be evidence that life can be good, then non-existence is not objectively superior, so giving birth is not pure evil, and the excuse to avoid the ways of the world is gone.
The sad thing is the trade being made: in exchange for no responsibilities, guilt, heartbreak, pain, disappointment, etc., the Pro-Death are locked in. Life's joys are forbidden: love, fulfillment, purpose, friendship. . . if you have those, then life isn't all bad and you knock the whole belief system down.
It's a Lie
Even more sad - and the point of this post - it's a lie. The Pro-Death say they feel no guilt, they aren't lonely, they don't want to do anything with their lives, etc., but they are clearly in great misery. They may not admit what the bad feelings are, but they're there. There's guilt, self-hatred, and loneliness. They push it down and down further and further, but it's there. It's pretty clear if you read between the lines. Even worse, they cover the deeper feelings with rage and hatred. Hatred is exhausting and fruitless. People need vulnerability, purpose, and support, but seeking any of them releases the buried feelings and collapses the belief structure.
It's a trap, leading one deeper and deeper into the pit. As you dehumanize people, you of course start to have arrogance, deserved or otherwise. But what is the source of the arrogance? The Pro-Death empty everything from their lives except the ideology, so the ideology is their identity, and it is what they think makes them superior. . . but the ideology goes hand-in-hand with misery. As put so eloquently in another thread (on a different topic, I'm not suggesting they endorse this post) by @Abandoned Character :
They can't escape the misery, and every day spent in the cesspit makes escape harder.
So, when they say something cruel, rather than taking it seriously, realize how it is coming from a place of immense pain. They'll never apologize to you, because it would be acknowledging that they may owe people something in some cases, and - again - the whole house of cards falls. But, I personally believe there's someone good still in there, and nothing they say will convince me otherwise. I'm sad for those trapped souls, wanting something better but imprisoned by the pain.
Normally, when I write a big post like this I do it all in one go, but this one has been drafted and revised five(!) times now. I wanted to find the right tone, avoid attacking anyone, and - believe it or not - keep it reasonable in length. This post is not aimed at the Pro-Death. I may antagonize sometimes because of rough feelings and my lack of self-control, but I actually do just want what's best for them. (I don't claim to know what that is, but when I say "what's best for them," I mean what puts their overall contentedness/happiness/stability as high as possible without harming others, even if that means a peaceful ctb.)
This post is being made because more than a handful of people have personally expressed to me frustration with seeing these views. It's fine to have your own opinions, but the problem is that these views inherently attack others, just like what got Funeral Cry temp banned. If I say anyone who has friends or a job or dreams or passions is a dumb Normie, or weak and brainwashed, or anything generalizing, I'm insulting a large group of people. This post is to attempt to explain to those who are being indirectly insulted or otherwise discouraged that they should take pity on these people. It's easy to posture through text, but the image I have of them betrays the confidence they attempt to project. Frankly, it breaks my heart a bit.
One failure of this post is that I did not come up with any way to help them. I actually even took some time to read about helping people escape cults, but as long as their echo chambers (this place, NEET sites, incel sites) are as equally accessible as anyone speaking reason I don't know of a way to help through a screen unless they can pass Step 1 and realize something is wrong. In fact, challenging them probably has the opposite effect and drives them deeper. Sorry about that. My hope is that not many subscribing to these views see this post, as I assume they don't frequent the recovery section.
Negativity is to be expected on a website that is in favor of the right to peaceful suicide. A lot of people are hurting. But there is a difference between wanting ctb for yourself and insisting that ctb would be best for everyone. Example:
Reasonable negativity: "life is so hard. I've been unhappy and tried so much. I can't relate to people who are doing well. I'm very different from them. I want to ctb to relieve my suffering."
Pro-Death negativity: "life is objectively horrible. Being happy doesn't make sense. I don't enjoy anything, and no one could enjoy anything unless they're deluded. I want ctb, and people who don't want ctb are stupid sheeple."
Pro-Death negativity: "life is objectively horrible. Being happy doesn't make sense. I don't enjoy anything, and no one could enjoy anything unless they're deluded. I want ctb, and people who don't want ctb are stupid sheeple."
The generalized statements about people with jobs, people who are parents, people with disabilities, people with certain physical characteristics, people in different IQ categories, etc. are all indirectly aimed at others, intentionally or not. If you are trying to recover and see comments about your category, on a site where you're looking for support . . . it's a punch in the gut.
I want to be clear, this is not meant to disparage. I feel incredibly sad for those who embrace this way of thinking. You see, it resembles a cult. I have seen people who were down but not so far gone fall into this mindset and spiral from there.
In this post, I want to examine the ideology, explain how it comes about, discuss why it gets such a strong hold on people, and try to convince those in recovery to embrace pity over annoyance. I am also trying, as part of my effort to theorycraft recovery, to figure out what on earth can be done for people who embrace these beliefs, if anything. The motivation for the post is that some very pure-hearted people have been highly discouraged recently, and I want to offer an alternative view for them. This post does not aim to call anyone out or debate these views (although I'm always open to discussion, this is simply not the venue.) The post is aimed at people who are attempting recovery who get discouraged seeing this stuff, not people who believe this stuff (again, we can discuss separately if you'd like). As a disclaimer, I in no way mean to minimize anyone's pain. My belief is that anyone can live a fulfilling life or be unsatisfied with life and choose ctb for themselves regardless of situation.
What do I mean by Pro-Death?
Pro-Death goes beyond wanting death for oneself. They don't necessarily wish death on others, but they think preferring death is always logical, and they think anyone who doesn't come to that conclusion is mistaken. And, most importantly, they seem to be bothered if you suggest there are good parts to life and that it's possible to be fulfilled while being rational. Of course, the group is not a monolith, but they probably believe at least some of these things:
- Antinatalism to the Extreme: one can be antinatalist with a nuanced view about risk and probabilities, and while I'd disagree with them it can be an interesting discussion. The Pro-Death version of antinatalism, however, concludes absolutely that there is no goodness in the world (or that any goodness is negated because "well if you never existed you wouldn't want the goodness."). They will try to logic out why the life you claim you enjoy actually sucks/is not worth living. And, btw, parents are evil for having kids (even though there are sweet, caring parents on this site).
- "I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!": This line has been uttered by many children and teenagers towards their parents throughout the past century, but the reality is that we were all born. That's the situation. The Pro-Death will argue "I never asked to be born" and conclude that they are owed support, as existence is involuntary. The stance is vital, as it is an excuse to believe that one can take without giving back; have no obligations; justify cruelty and selfishness; owe no explanation for extreme views; and so on.
- Work is slavery: This is a common thread that latches the people on this site to the darker, more vile parts of the incel world (which is more nuts than you can imagine if you dig through their resources for just a few minutes.) I have used the "wageslave" rhetoric before, as I am fairly antiwork and have a lot of issues with modern work standards and culture. When I call it wageslaving, though, I understand that I'm exaggerating, and it is not literal slavery. Pro-Death does not recognize the nuance: if you earned a degree and applied for a job and signed a contract that allows you to leave at any time, you are the exact same as a child taken from their home to be put in chains and raped repeatedly for the rest of their life - a "slave." It is absolute. (And you're dumb for going along with it.)
- Happy People are Sheeple: Closely related to above. Anyone who enjoys life, or is okay having a job, or enjoys being around other people, or similar, is a Normie, NPC, sheeple, brainwashed simpleton, etc. This allows for automatic dismissal of challenges to the views.
- Other Incel forum talk: eg., focus on looks and IQ and genetic superiority, focus on racial stuff, etc; Anything that can make some people feel like they never had a shot so they just give up. It's thinking a person can be defined with stats, like a character sheet in Dungeons and Dragons. It can strangely be simultaneously combined with a superiority complex - that one's stats are too good to relate to commoners. Extra points if smartness is defined as being exactly someone's own IQ or higher, making everyone below that dumb.
I could go on, but if you are a regular on this site you get what I'm talking about. Other commonalities are overuse of words such as "objectively," "rationally," "logically," and stuff about how we're biological machines rather than creatures with higher consciousness.
The overlap with incel talk says something important: this is an ideology of defeat. They have been defeated, have given up, and are looking to explain how the defeat was not their fault. (I personally do not believe the defeat was permanent. As the Positive Paul of the forum, I believe in them, but this is from their subconscious perspective.)
An Unstable Foundation
A common occurrence these days:
A: "Life is bad and thinking life is good is stupid."
B: "But what about XYZ? I think there can be more nuance to the view."
A: "You only think that because brainwashed/irrational/ not objective, etc." (No addressing the arguments.)
C: "Wow, [A], I simply can't understand why there's any pushback on your based take that happy people are wrong to be happy."
B: "Well, see, I just told you. Here are some arguments . . . [XYZ, etc.]"
B: "But what about XYZ? I think there can be more nuance to the view."
A: "You only think that because brainwashed/irrational/ not objective, etc." (No addressing the arguments.)
C: "Wow, [A], I simply can't understand why there's any pushback on your based take that happy people are wrong to be happy."
B: "Well, see, I just told you. Here are some arguments . . . [XYZ, etc.]"
- Silence
I want to emphasize, again, that I'm not making fun of anyone. This doesn't mean if you've bought into Pro-Death you aren't smart. It's simply a position that's impossible to defend. If I enter a debate, and the other person is assigned the position that "it is impossible to add two numbers and have the results be an even number," and I point out "well, 1+1=2, which is even," I haven't really out-debated them, right?
It's pain avoidance. Make no mistake, the initial motivation is fear: fear of failure, rejection, etc. Arrogance is common, but deep down is self-hatred. They know it's all wrong, but their strategy of hiding from pain won't let them face it.
The arguments are built top-down, starting with the answer and justifying it later. It leads to a very shaky structure of beliefs. If any one of the legs are knocked out, the whole thing collapses. It's aiming to avoid all pain. First, retreat from fears by withdrawing from society. But, there are still bad feelings: guilt, self-doubt, loneliness, and more. The beliefs are meant to negate these. "I never asked to be born" eliminates the guilt of siphoning off people, because an unfathomably awful wrong was committed against those born into this world, mandating reparations.
To say being birthed is an absolute harm, life must be an absolute bad. If life could be good, it could be reasonable to give birth. This leads to the extreme antinatalist views: the worship of "non-existence." If we never lived, nothing would be bad or wrong, and pain is so overwhelming that non-existence is "objectively" superior.
Unfortunately, there is overwhelming evidence that lots of people think their life is something worthwhile. But for Pro-Death life must be objectively bad, so that birthing people is objectively bad, so that the world owes someone born for the cruelty of existence. So, happy people are dismissed, first, by converting those on the edge of despair:
State repeatedly that most of life is work, and the evil system takes most of the money, so life is a pointless lie, etc. In fact, workers are slaves. A slave's life can't be good, right? Work = modern day slavery with no nuance. It's very discouraging to hear, and even more of a mood killer once you start saying it to yourself. If you have to work, you are a slave, therefore your life is bad, therefore non-existence would be better, therefore you being born was a crime and you are owed support for life in reciprocation.
But some will still insist life is good, not believing all work is the same as slavery. It is unconvincing to say these people are wrong in their own evaluation of their happiness. The Pro-Death now need some other explanation: brainwashing, programming, the matrix, NPCs, etc. 'These people must be delusional and irrational, or not smart enough, falling victim to propaganda.' I'm repeating myself, but this is a necessity, because if a rational, unbrainwashed person can be evidence that life can be good, then non-existence is not objectively superior, so giving birth is not pure evil, and the excuse to avoid the ways of the world is gone.
The sad thing is the trade being made: in exchange for no responsibilities, guilt, heartbreak, pain, disappointment, etc., the Pro-Death are locked in. Life's joys are forbidden: love, fulfillment, purpose, friendship. . . if you have those, then life isn't all bad and you knock the whole belief system down.
It's a Lie
Even more sad - and the point of this post - it's a lie. The Pro-Death say they feel no guilt, they aren't lonely, they don't want to do anything with their lives, etc., but they are clearly in great misery. They may not admit what the bad feelings are, but they're there. There's guilt, self-hatred, and loneliness. They push it down and down further and further, but it's there. It's pretty clear if you read between the lines. Even worse, they cover the deeper feelings with rage and hatred. Hatred is exhausting and fruitless. People need vulnerability, purpose, and support, but seeking any of them releases the buried feelings and collapses the belief structure.
It's a trap, leading one deeper and deeper into the pit. As you dehumanize people, you of course start to have arrogance, deserved or otherwise. But what is the source of the arrogance? The Pro-Death empty everything from their lives except the ideology, so the ideology is their identity, and it is what they think makes them superior. . . but the ideology goes hand-in-hand with misery. As put so eloquently in another thread (on a different topic, I'm not suggesting they endorse this post) by @Abandoned Character :
They can't escape the misery, and every day spent in the cesspit makes escape harder.
So, when they say something cruel, rather than taking it seriously, realize how it is coming from a place of immense pain. They'll never apologize to you, because it would be acknowledging that they may owe people something in some cases, and - again - the whole house of cards falls. But, I personally believe there's someone good still in there, and nothing they say will convince me otherwise. I'm sad for those trapped souls, wanting something better but imprisoned by the pain.
Normally, when I write a big post like this I do it all in one go, but this one has been drafted and revised five(!) times now. I wanted to find the right tone, avoid attacking anyone, and - believe it or not - keep it reasonable in length. This post is not aimed at the Pro-Death. I may antagonize sometimes because of rough feelings and my lack of self-control, but I actually do just want what's best for them. (I don't claim to know what that is, but when I say "what's best for them," I mean what puts their overall contentedness/happiness/stability as high as possible without harming others, even if that means a peaceful ctb.)
This post is being made because more than a handful of people have personally expressed to me frustration with seeing these views. It's fine to have your own opinions, but the problem is that these views inherently attack others, just like what got Funeral Cry temp banned. If I say anyone who has friends or a job or dreams or passions is a dumb Normie, or weak and brainwashed, or anything generalizing, I'm insulting a large group of people. This post is to attempt to explain to those who are being indirectly insulted or otherwise discouraged that they should take pity on these people. It's easy to posture through text, but the image I have of them betrays the confidence they attempt to project. Frankly, it breaks my heart a bit.
One failure of this post is that I did not come up with any way to help them. I actually even took some time to read about helping people escape cults, but as long as their echo chambers (this place, NEET sites, incel sites) are as equally accessible as anyone speaking reason I don't know of a way to help through a screen unless they can pass Step 1 and realize something is wrong. In fact, challenging them probably has the opposite effect and drives them deeper. Sorry about that. My hope is that not many subscribing to these views see this post, as I assume they don't frequent the recovery section.
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