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obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
104
Here's some thoughts based on secondary sources and my own observations.

Let's start with some observations I have made:
1. Many men are lonely and heavily yearn for physical intimacy and romantic relationships
2. Many men nonetheless struggle in finding and holding romantic relationships

So let's answer these questions:
1. Why do men so heavily yearn for physical intimacy, and by extension romantic relationships?

I think it's because male friendships are very lacking in physical contact - in other words, touching one another. Now, if you are male and just cringed or had some reflexive reaction to that phrasing, that's exactly the problem. There's a huge stigma against intimate touch between male friends. It sounds like an incredibly juvenile thing, but that's also exactly the problem - it starts from when we are very young. It's exactly that juvenile ick against touching one another (which I believe is largely born of modern homophobia, a whole other can of worms) that sets men up for failure. From a young age, boys are inclined to literally starve themselves of touch. Men will not hug one another, lean on one another while watching a movie, or even give a light, gentle touch to comfort one another. The only acceptable physical contact between men today is a firm handshake or a knuckle sandwich.

But humans are very much social animals. Most of us have a very deep desire and need for physical touch, whether we are aware of it or not. So, of course, you get a lot of men who can't fulfill their needs in male relationships and therefore feel incredibly lonely. But since they refuse to find that intimacy with other men (god forbid you act gay!), they have to look for it in women, and therefore romantic relationships. After all, you also can't have physical intimacy in platonic relationships with women based on more general societal stigmas.

Thus, men are overwhelmingly lonely from the get go, crippled by juvenile stigma against physical affection among their peers.

2. Why do men so deeply struggle in the game of romantic relationships?

I believe this stems from, essentially, just the nature of history. Let's start with what changed and what didn't. Why didn't men struggle as much in the past?

Male culture, and generally any such social constructs, are relatively slow to change. The fact is, expectations placed on men and social skills normally acquired by men have not drastically changed in the last several generations. But material conditions and social conditions in the world have drastically changed.

In the past, men would bring notable material benefits to a relationship. After all, they were necessarily the breadwinners in the relationship since women hadn't gained the social acceptance to truly join the work force yet. Thus, even men with poor relationship skills could find and keep a romantic relationship by material dependency alone. Thus, men did not have a strong incentive to build relationship skills in the first place - they simply didn't need to. Some men, of course, still gained strong relationship skills, but not nearly as many, proportionally, as women generally do. After all, the only thing women could bring to a relationship in that time would be relationship skills. For women, gaining strong relationship skills was a matter of survival, on the same level of importance as it was for men to gain work skills.

But obviously, that has changed. Whether or not you think it's a good thing, women have gained the social acceptance and at least something close to equality in the work place. The value of bringing material benefits to a relationship has, naturally. plummeted because of that. But male culture has remained largely the same. Men are still expected to be the main source of income in a relationship and men are still not taught strong relationship skills.

In the game of romantic relationships, men have recently lost their greatest advantage while still holding on to their greatest weakness. No wonder they're struggling!

Bonus: 3. Why don't men just get better at relationships then?

Herein lies the crux. It's just not something you can learn by yourself. It's literally skills regarding how to interact with someone else. But who the hell is going to teach them? Certainly not the other men who are equally bad at it. Certainly not women, when they can just pick from the pool of men who do have good relationship skills instead. Maybe they could turn to the men who do have good relationship skills, but even that's difficult, because we've culturally stigmatized those men as "weak" and "feminine". It's not that there's a lack of male role models in society today, it's that there's an inherent stigma against the men who would be considered a "positive" role model. We simply do not look to ugly, short, and kind men as role models regardless of how successful they might literally be. Naturally, when we see good looking, tall men who are successful we assume it's because they're good looking and tall, not their social skills. (insert tangent about how it's also easier to find opportunities to learn social skills when you're good looking to begin with)

Now, also think about how we acquire social skills in the first place. It's basically all passively absorbed through the environment and the people around us over the course of us growing up. That's also why this kind of culture changes so slowly. The fact is, it's incredibly difficult to actively learn social skills - it's not just a matter of "go to therapy", it's an entire childhood's worth of social skills that were never learned. How the hell do you expect someone to just go out and make up for that? Not to mention the lack of people willing or able to teach it, as discussed above.

Exaggeration and hyperbole to make a point aside, of course it's not actually impossible. It's just very difficult.

But at the end of the day, humans simply do not want to do difficult things, especially when an easier alternative is presented:

Bonus: 4. The manosphere

We have a tendency to take the easier path forward. There's nothing wrong with that - after all, it's our very desire for ease and efficiency that has allowed humanity to progress to this point in the first place. We love to find paths forward where there's nothing we have to do, expend the least amount of energy. But that's also a dangerous tendency.

Given the difficulty in improving one's own relationship skills, it is simply far easier to blame the problem on something else. Especially so if the target of the blame is something you can't change, because that means you don't have to do anything about it. Rather than accepting the difficult path ahead which requires a lot of work, we look for shortcuts, easy paths forward that require us to do nothing - to be energy efficient.

And it's so easy to find that alternate path too. The fact is, regardless of the proverb, we do judge books by their cover. The fact is, ugly, short men do have an inherent disadvantage in finding relationships in the present landscape. So of course it's natural to latch on to that. It's so much easier to put the blame on those things than to try to make up for decades of social skills, because that means there's nothing you have to do - after all, you can't just fix your genetics. Similarly, you can simply blame women for it, because the fact is, they are the one's rejecting you. And because you can't just mind control women in real life, once again, that means there's nothing you have to do. And we love when there's nothing we have to do.

And thus is born the manosphere. Grifters taking advantage of desperate men, giving them an easy alternative that just requires them to swipe their credit card, communities of men finally finding some intimacy and escape from loneliness through their shared grief, echo chambers doubling, tripling down on the easy paths forward, toxic role models offering tantalizing visions of what it looks like when those easy paths forward are fully realized.

Men are trapped. The fact is, it will take generations before male culture fully adjusts to modern material and social requirements. In the meanwhile, those entire generations are trapped in the cycle, seeing no other way forward but to go backwards, pushing themselves ever further away from the very thing they want. But no one wants to help. Nor do they want to accept help. After all, they're men. And men solve their own problems.

So the silent screaming will continue.
 
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NumbItAll

NumbItAll

expendable
May 20, 2018
1,008
I would be fine with accepting help except that nothing actually helps. There are no solutions, and all advice out there is wrong. Personally I get nothing out of physical affection with other men. No problem with hugs or whatever but it doesn't even come close to addressing the issue with lack of intimacy. Loser men should be offered a peaceful exit to alleviate our suffering and also prevent us from burdening society any further with our presence.
 
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tiger b

tiger b

AI without the I
Oct 24, 2023
1,239
That YouTuber puts together very thoughtful content - and suffers plenty of hate for it, from all sides. I found the follow-up video to the above particularly hilarious.

Well worth watching her videos imo, even if you don't quite agree with everything she says. It's nice seeing someone genuinely try to be kind and empathetic.
 
Life Is My Coffin

Life Is My Coffin

One final action ⚰️⚰️⚰️
Oct 13, 2023
191
That YouTuber puts together very thoughtful content - and suffers plenty of hate for it, from all sides.

Well worth watching her videos imo, even if you don't quite agree with everything she says. It's nice seeing someone genuinely try to be kind and empathetic.

despite being a female and (by that fact alone) will most likely never have any idea how truly painful male loneliness actually is, she still does her best to make it a very raised issue and explains it better than I've seen any other woman can do. June is amazing and she'll forever have my respect
 
Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
506
I'm not discounting the suffering of men, but women are suffering as well. We are being trash talked and insulted, encouraging men to hate us by elite sponsored plants such as Andrew Tate and Pearl lol! These people didn't just rise out your local community, they are sponsored, come from a separate society, and push narratives and pit men and women against each other. Doesn't it seem strange how they are so enlightened beyond the rest of us as if they know all this stuff the average person doesn't know? Yea there's a reason for that. They aren't somehow special or more intelligent than everyone else, they just are not actually on our side and come from elite circles. Beware of celebrity influencer intellectuals.
 
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tiger b

tiger b

AI without the I
Oct 24, 2023
1,239
I'm not discounting the suffering of men, but women are suffering as well.
You kind of just discounted it.

I don't think that needs to be pointed out here. To steal from the video, you can see that being discussed 'literally anywhere else'. Men's issues shouldn't always be put in the context of woman's issues.

I suggest you watch the above video regarding Andrew Tate. I agree with the conclusion you draw - it is exploitation (although elite plants is really an unnecessary stretch of the imagination) but you don't address why anyone in their right mind would be listening.

If woman surely have a voice, then men should too. Men's voice doesn't exist just to validate women or women's problems (or criticise either). And I hope noone sticks a label on me for saying that.
 
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Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
506
You kind of just discounted it.

I don't think that needs to be pointed out here. To steal from the video, you can see that being discussed 'literally anywhere else'. Men's issues shouldn't always be put in the context of woman's issues.

I suggest you watch the above video regarding Andrew Tate. I agree with the conclusion you draw - it is exploitation - but you don't address why anyone in their right mind would be listening.

If woman surely have a voice, then men should too. Men's voice doesn't exist just to validate women or women's problems (or criticise either). And I hope noone sticks a label on me for saying that.
I just notice that there's a lot more focus on men's suffering these days and it is important because without men being happy and healthy, women's quality of life will suffer. Men do the major things that keep the infrastructure going and protect women and children usually when everything goes right. But when I look at twitter feeds or try to find information on how badly women are also suffering, u don't see much on that. It is happening though. I tend to see more media that is insulting to women now than ever before on social media. Because they started to increase women's power at the expense of men, women are also being screwed by this, u just don't see this discussed much. Not all women are out to screw men over but we are made to appear like this.
 
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O

obligatoryshackles

I don't want to get used to it.
Aug 11, 2023
104
I'm not discounting the suffering of men, but women are suffering as well. We are being trash talked and insulted, encouraging men to hate us by elite sponsored plants such as Andrew Tate and Pearl lol! These people didn't just rise out your local community, they are sponsored, come from a separate society, and push narratives and pit men and women against each other. Doesn't it seem strange how they are so enlightened beyond the rest of us as if they know all this stuff the average person doesn't know? Yea there's a reason for that. They aren't somehow special or more intelligent than everyone else, they just are not actually on our side and come from elite circles. Beware of celebrity influencer intellectuals.
Oh absolutely. I'd say women still have it way worse in society. If you want that discussion you can go and make a post titled "on the current state of women".

Also, people like Andrew Tate do not come from "elite circles" stop trying to mystify a very simple issue. He's taking advantage of desperate men and massively profiting for it personally by presenting a misogynistic fantasy. It's not that complicated. Making it seem like some shadowy entity is responsible completely discounts the actual problem that Tate is just one symptom of and gives him way more credit than he deserves.

I just notice that there's a lot more focus on men's suffering these days and it is important because without men being happy and healthy, women's quality of life will suffer. Men do the major things that keep the infrastructure going and protect women and children usually when everything goes right. But when I look at twitter feeds or try to find information on how badly women are also suffering, u don't see much on that. It is happening though. I tend to see more media that is insulting to women now than ever before on social media. Because they started to increase women's power at the expense of men, women are also being screwed by this, u just don't see this discussed much. Not all women are out to screw men over but we are made to appear like this.
I mean, not to literally mansplain, but I'm gonna mansplain real quick that X (the site formerly known as Twitter) might not be the best place to look for discourse on women's issues, given its current state of being run by known manosphere grifter Elon Musk and his troupe of blue checkmark simps.

The manosphere has mass marketed misogyny incredibly well, so of course there's gonna be a ton of media about hating women now. It's literally the same problem.

This is REALLY veering into me being misogynistic but I think you hitting the "not all women" button like men used to hit the "not all men" button, is kind of interesting on a meta level of how we tend to react to gender issues. We're all just so defensive all the time. I mean look at me defending this post right now. I'm sure there was at least a little bit of vitriol that leaked into the text here.
 
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Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
506
You're doing it again! Can you not see?

Look at the title of the thread.
Im actually not but don't respond if u don't like my comment. I don't agree with everything people say on here either, but I accept what they say and they have a right to their opinion as long as they aren't trying to insult me directly. I'm trying to be civil still and not insulting anyone.
 
tiger b

tiger b

AI without the I
Oct 24, 2023
1,239
Im actually not but don't respond if u don't like my comment. I don't agree with everything people say on here either, but I accept what they say and they have a right to their opinion as long as they aren't trying to insult me directly. I'm trying to be civil still and not insulting anyone.
Yes, you blatantly are (discounting it) You've just done it yet again, with that. That's what it reads as, and I'm reading the posts in the context of the thread.

I've read men do similar on posts concerning women's issues on other social media platforms - there are many, and rightly so - and I have sympathised with the exasperated female respondents. I'd elaborate but it doesn't belong here.

I'll respond to whatever I choose - with respect -and don't need your permission to do so. If you are implying I am insulting you, that's far from the case. I never said you weren't being polite so I wonder why you are taking this approach.

It's not about not having liking your comment at all, far from it. That's not the point. I never said I did that. If you'd like to highlight any direct insults or rudeness, please do so as I believe in listening to what people have to say, not raising straw man arguments or sidetracking an important issue.

Please don't make it all about you. I say this respectfully.
 
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NumbItAll

NumbItAll

expendable
May 20, 2018
1,008

I usually avoid this type of stuff because it feels like it can be somewhat self-defeating, and plus I don't want to wreck my algorithm. But this is actually pretty well done, not too triggering, and even humorous. Any time I see women talking about this stuff with compassion I get choked up.

On the subject of Andrew Tate, guys like that make everything worse. No matter how despairing I feel, I can't understand the appeal there...
 
Rouge4000

Rouge4000

Alone
Sep 27, 2023
61
I usually avoid this type of stuff because it feels like it can be somewhat self-defeating, and plus I don't want to wreck my algorithm. But this is actually pretty well done, not too triggering, and even humorous. Any time I see women talking about this stuff with compassion I get choked up.

On the subject of Andrew Tate, guys like that make everything worse. No matter how despairing I feel, I can't understand the appeal there...
The appeal to any male is simple. Ether be a good person and suffer for it or be a piece of shit and thrive off of it.
they deserve it tbh
A foolish conclusion. You are prone to saying the complete opposite if it benefited you at all
 
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T

ThatStateOfMind

Elementalist
Nov 13, 2021
830
they deserve it tbh
How despicable of you to speak so cruelly about lonely and suffering men. Why do men specifically deserve it? Simply for being born with an XY chromosome?

Have you no empathy or concern for the plight of those men who struggle, and those who eventually end their life as a result of this exact viewpoint? It is people like you who make this world a colder and sadder place for men in general. Try to show some compassion, for everyone's sake.

A foolish conclusion. You are prone to saying the complete opposite if it benefited you at all
This is how a lot of people are. It's a big mindset that people have: I don't care because it doesn't affect me.
I just notice that there's a lot more focus on men's suffering these days and it is important because without men being happy and healthy, women's quality of life will suffer. Men do the major things that keep the infrastructure going and protect women and children usually when everything goes right. But when I look at twitter feeds or try to find information on how badly women are also suffering, u don't see much on that. It is happening though. I tend to see more media that is insulting to women now than ever before on social media. Because they started to increase women's power at the expense of men, women are also being screwed by this, u just don't see this discussed much. Not all women are out to screw men over but we are made to appear like this.
i agree, and I may sound like a nutcase but it really seems like there's some sort of agenda or whatever that's meant to divide everyone. I can only speak for America as it's where I am, but we're so divided right now. Politically divided and now political opponents resort to personal insults. If you watch Obama and Romney's presidential debate, you'll notice it's much more polite and professional than Trump and Hillary, or especially Trump and Biden, that one was a shit show. Not to mention other divisions by gender, race, sexuality. It's crazy because America would be far better off if everyone could get along or at least be more tolerant of others views.
 
beelzebul

beelzebul

(;´д`)ゞ
Oct 10, 2023
116
they deserve it tbh
Yikes.
Im actually not but don't respond if u don't like my comment. I don't agree with everything people say on here either, but I accept what they say and they have a right to their opinion as long as they aren't trying to insult me directly. I'm trying to be civil still and not insulting anyone.
I think the issue here is that you came in here saying "but women" when this is not the place for that. It makes it seem like your sole purpose in this thread is to derail. Women have millions of other places where they can talk about their issues.

Let us have at least this one thread.
 
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