Venting On suicide and mental illness

[onewayroad]

One thing that I would like to say, and you lovely people are the only ones I can say it to, is that if you have a chronic, untreatable mental illness then suicide might be rational.

A lot of people seem to believe these three things. If you are suicidal then you are too crazy to make a rational decision, that people have survived much worse, concentration camps etc. and that euthanasia should be reserved for animals or people who are terminally ill.

First, being mentally ill and suicidal does not mean you are irrational. If you are suffering terribly because of a mental illness and know that you will never get better, you are destined for a long life of horrible pain. It may be entirely rational to opt out of that hellish life. One might be thinking totally clearly about the decision.

Second, the people who have survived through horrific suffering all have one thing in common - they survived it. That is to say, that suffering ended for them at some point and even while they were suffering, they could hope for the day when the suffering would stop. If you are suffering from an untreatable illness then you do not have that hope.

And finally, euthanasia should be a right for anyone who is destined to a life of pain and misery, as it is in Belgium. To deny that right to suffers of chronic mental illness is to trivialize how terrible mental illness can be. Most of these people wouldn't last 24 hours in my head, and they demand that I live another 50 years like this? Based only on some sacrosanct principle that even a life of agony is too valuable to lose, not on any ethical principles.

When a healthy person dies, their happiness is lost from the universe and it is a tragedy. When someone destined to suffer forever dies, their suffering is lost from the universe and it is a blessing.

It makes me angry that people cannot understand this.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

 

[s_girl]

One thing that I would like to say, and you lovely people are the only ones I can say it to, is that if you have a chronic, untreatable mental illness then suicide might be rational.

A lot of people seem to believe these three things. If you are suicidal then you are too crazy to make a rational decision, that people have survived much worse, concentration camps etc. and that euthanasia should be reserved for animals or people who are terminally ill.

First, being mentally ill and suicidal does not mean you are irrational. If you are suffering terribly because of a mental illness and know that you will never get better, you are destined for a long life of horrible pain. It may be entirely rational to opt out of that hellish life. One might be thinking totally clearly about the decision.

Second, the people who have survived through horrific suffering all have one thing in common - they survived it. That is to say, that suffering ended for them at some point and even while they were suffering, they could hope for the day when the suffering would stop. If you are suffering from an untreatable illness then you do not have that hope.

And finally, euthanasia should be a right for anyone who is destined to a life of pain and misery, as it is in Belgium. To deny that right to suffers of chronic mental illness is to trivialize how terrible mental illness can be. Most of these people wouldn't last 24 hours in my head, and they demand that I live another 50 years like this? Based only on some sacrosanct principle that even a life of agony is too valuable to lose, not on any ethical principles.

When a healthy person dies, their happiness is lost from the universe and it is a tragedy. When someone destined to suffer forever dies, their suffering is lost from the universe and it is a blessing.

It makes me angry that people cannot understand this.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

Of course I totally agree. I imagine most people here would too. But look at the Aurelia Brouwers case in Holland. The right to die movement is gaining momentum - even for psychiatric illnesses that remove quality of life. Life is about quality and NOT quantity! I believe the world will agree with us one day too but change happens very very slowly, so hopefully only a couple of generations away...

A hopeful story:
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45117163

 

[onewayroad]

Of course I totally agree. I imagine most people here would too. But look at the Aurelia Brouwers case in Holland. The right to die movement is gaining momentum - even for psychiatric illnesses that remove quality of life. Life is about quality and NOT quantity! I believe the world will agree with us one day too but change happens very very slowly, so hopefully only a couple of generations away...

A hopeful story:
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-45117163

That was a great read, thanks. Really struck home thinking about what it would be like to not have to hide this idea of suicide. To be able to say goodbye to people. I am so sad not to have that.

 

[worldexploder]

Life is the most precious gift someone could ever receive. Only insane people would want to return something so wonderful (SARCASM).

 

[Sayo]

I agree wholeheartedly, as someone with many chronic and life-limiting physical problems. While I would also like to see far more effective treatments for mental illness and societal changes that don't cause it (I believe being well in this sick world is a bit strange), the reality is that some of us are treatment-resistant or would otherwise like to opt out of the terrible pain. The thought of being able to seek a humane option might even be enough to keep me going for a little longer, as per the palliative principle.

I also think my death would be easier on my loved ones, as well as less awful on me, if I were able to go through this process. It would not force them to accept it, sure, but I would be able to be honest with them, and I would have a chance at discussing it reasonably with them.

Thank you to those brave people who have helped establish precedents for us. I am sorry that there was no better way for you.

 

[onewayroad]

I agree wholeheartedly, as someone with many chronic and life-limiting physical problems. While I would also like to see far more effective treatments for mental illness and societal changes that don't cause it (I believe being well in this sick world is a bit strange), the reality is that some of us are treatment-resistant or would otherwise like to opt out of the terrible pain. The thought of being able to seek a humane option might even be enough to keep me going for a little longer, as per the palliative principle.

I also think my death would be easier on my loved ones, as well as less awful on me, if I were able to go through this process. It would not force them to accept it, sure, but I would be able to be honest with them, and I would have a chance at discussing it reasonably with them.

Thank you to those brave people who have helped establish precedents for us. I am sorry that there was no better way for you.

I think the same thing about it being easier on loved ones. At the very least, it would be a chance to say goodbye in person. To hold them against you and say that you're sorry you couldn't get well. That would mean so much to me.

 

[Schopenhauer]

Wow, I didn't know about Aurelia Brouwers. This is great. I love the Netherlands.

Oh, and I agree with the OP. Being mentally ill isn't the same as being stupid, or irrational. We all deserve the right to make our own choices.

 

[crova]

Most of these people wouldn't last 24 hours in my head,.

Could you tell us what means to be 'in your head'. What exactly you experience.
I will understand if you don't wish to answer.

 

[Trashcan]

So true. A lot of people are against euthanasia and physician assisted suicide, but the ones who are okay with it only want to limit it to terminal illnesses. Some think debilitating chronic illnesses could maybe be included. But it seems like a very small minority that want mental illnesses to be included. Everyone goes on about how depression and other disorders are "easily treatable." Not always. And people thinking including mental illnesses is "going too far."

Some people think that because no one is getting a lobotomy for their disorders these days, that treatment is sufficient and that mental health stigma isn't a thing. Really just goes to show what a long way to go we have.

 

[jake]

i agree completely with this ... but would extend it farther. there can be lots of rational reasons for one to decide to end his/her life. it should not be limited to instances of physical or mental illness. if you decide for any reason that continuing to live makes no sense -- if, for example, you can objectively assess the value (or lack thereof) of continuing you life, you should be free to make that decision for yourself. in my own case, for instance, i can reasonably recognize that continuing on as i have for far too long adds no value and even causes harm to the people that i care about and i know that ending my life will alleviate pain and suffering to others and will make their lives better. it will be the only good thing i will have done in my life, and that decision should be accepted as such without forcing those people i love to feel shame or have to deal with the social stigma associated with suicide.

 

[TAW122]

One thing that I would like to say, and you lovely people are the only ones I can say it to, is that if you have a chronic, untreatable mental illness then suicide might be rational.

A lot of people seem to believe these three things. If you are suicidal then you are too crazy to make a rational decision, that people have survived much worse, concentration camps etc. and that euthanasia should be reserved for animals or people who are terminally ill.

First, being mentally ill and suicidal does not mean you are irrational. If you are suffering terribly because of a mental illness and know that you will never get better, you are destined for a long life of horrible pain. It may be entirely rational to opt out of that hellish life. One might be thinking totally clearly about the decision.

Second, the people who have survived through horrific suffering all have one thing in common - they survived it. That is to say, that suffering ended for them at some point and even while they were suffering, they could hope for the day when the suffering would stop. If you are suffering from an untreatable illness then you do not have that hope.

And finally, euthanasia should be a right for anyone who is destined to a life of pain and misery, as it is in Belgium. To deny that right to suffers of chronic mental illness is to trivialize how terrible mental illness can be. Most of these people wouldn't last 24 hours in my head, and they demand that I live another 50 years like this? Based only on some sacrosanct principle that even a life of agony is too valuable to lose, not on any ethical principles.

When a healthy person dies, their happiness is lost from the universe and it is a tragedy. When someone destined to suffer forever dies, their suffering is lost from the universe and it is a blessing.

It makes me angry that people cannot understand this.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

I fully agree with you, and especially about the first point. I share your sentiments and anger in regards to the majority of people who lump mental illness and suicidality with irrationality (as well as not thinking straight). It is very difficult (and also risky) to try to convince those people as saying the wrong thing or having them suspect you, I, or us (on here) of being suicidal could result in temporarily losing our freedoms.

I agree that voluntary euthanasia should be a right for all that are suffering chronically, with little to no hope of getting better. Also, it disgusts me that some people even push for terminally ill patients to hold on longer, oftenly until their disease kills them instead of being able to go on their own terms... Another example would be those with chronic illnesses that don't ever get better (Cerebal Palsy, Spinal Cord Injuries (quadriplegia and paraplegia), ALS, etc.), people keep trying to advocate for them to continue living. Fuck those people who insist on keeping those alive for the rest of their lives.

So true. A lot of people are against euthanasia and physician assisted suicide, but the ones who are okay with it only want to limit it to terminal illnesses. Some think debilitating chronic illnesses could maybe be included. But it seems like a very small minority that want mental illnesses to be included. Everyone goes on about how depression and other disorders are "easily treatable." Not always. And people thinking including mental illnesses is "going too far."

Some people think that because no one is getting a lobotomy for their disorders these days, that treatment is sufficient and that mental health stigma isn't a thing. Really just goes to show what a long way to go we have.

This means we have a lot to go and I suppose the best we can do is to carefully and methodically get our arguments and activism across throughout time. I don't believe in our lifetimes we will see voluntary euthanasia being a thing, but the least we can push for small changes and maybe the next few generations (similar to what you said) will eventually make voluntary euthanasia a thing, a human right.

Sadly and paradoxically, the people who complain about mental health stigmas (those pro-life, anti-suicide, pro-psychiatry people) are the same people who keep the stigmas around and alive. They are a bunch of hypocritical fucks that don't know how illogical they sound or those that do, choose to revel in ignorance.

i agree completely with this ... but would extend it farther. there can be lots of rational reasons for one to decide to end his/her life. it should not be limited to instances of physical or mental illness. if you decide for any reason that continuing to live makes no sense -- if, for example, you can objectively assess the value (or lack thereof) of continuing you life, you should be free to make that decision for yourself. in my own case, for instance, i can reasonably recognize that continuing on as i have for far too long adds no value and even causes harm to the people that i care about and i know that ending my life will alleviate pain and suffering to others and will make their lives better. it will be the only good thing i will have done in my life, and that decision should be accepted as such without forcing those people i love to feel shame or have to deal with the social stigma associated with suicide.

I agree with you, and I think those who have just gotten tired of life, but are otherwise healthy should just be able to go out on their own terms, without risk of consequences (legally, civilly, and socially). After all, they are making a rational decision through carefully planning every detail of their death as well as getting everything in order before they finally ctb. Here is one such example.

 

[onewayroad]

Could you tell us what means to be 'in your head'. What exactly you experience.
I will understand if you don't wish to answer.

I don't mind, we're all friends here. I chose this version of the painting Sorrowful old man by Van Gogh as my display picture because I relate to the feeling. I have bipolar, and sometimes I feel like my mind is a high performance engine with someone's foot stomping on the accelerator that is redlining and about to explode. At other times I just feel intense grief, so painful that it makes me physically sick. I am quite thin because I am often in so much mental pain that I cannot keep food down. I have been like this for so many years that I can no longer cry, it's like my tear ducts have dried up. I used to though. At the best of times, I can feel happy, but it is a shallow happiness that is undermined by the persistent feeling that everything is about to come crashing down just underneath the surface. And it always does.

i agree completely with this ... but would extend it farther. there can be lots of rational reasons for one to decide to end his/her life. it should not be limited to instances of physical or mental illness. if you decide for any reason that continuing to live makes no sense -- if, for example, you can objectively assess the value (or lack thereof) of continuing you life, you should be free to make that decision for yourself. in my own case, for instance, i can reasonably recognize that continuing on as i have for far too long adds no value and even causes harm to the people that i care about and i know that ending my life will alleviate pain and suffering to others and will make their lives better. it will be the only good thing i will have done in my life, and that decision should be accepted as such without forcing those people i love to feel shame or have to deal with the social stigma associated with suicide.

I agree, but with the caveat that I think that whatever the issue is that is the reason for suicide should be unresolvable in most cases. Of course not all cases, but generally speaking.