Neurodivergent spaces...friendly or toxic?

[SchizoPolyGymnast]

Curious as to your experiences with online ND spaces. I have been a part of online ND spaces since 2001. Joined Asperger's Women on Myspace back in the day. I used to believe very strongly in neurodiversity but I'm very sour on it these days. In large part because of what these spaces have become.

What do you think? Any recommendations?

 

[turned_to_one]

it's a bit of a hot take, but i have this issue with a lot of spaces which vocalize being queer and/neurodivergent where they are too… performative?

not sure how else to describe it, but I don't like being forced to announce my identity, mental illnesses or spectrum disorders, or any other personal information like that to a group of people i don't know super intimately. but so many spaces demand you to essentially wear these things like a shirt pin for everyone to see (in some cases, literally). then you get treated like a sort of pariah for not being as queer or as neurodivergent as the others.

you don't get a spot to speak because you're only an ally and don't have as much of a right to share as others do, or you have it better because you're not as marginalized or mistreated as others.

i went to one group with my partner, who had never considered himself to be queer before meeting me, and has slowly been opening himself up to new experiences and revelations about himself. but he comes from a very traumatic home life of intense poverty and abuse, so he's very reluctant to expose so much of himself and trust people -especially right off the bat.
he gets treated like a joke for being a white cis guy in many spaces. often told to "sit down and listen" because they don't realize he's with me -though I don't think the treatment is justified even if he weren't.


spaces have become so eager to find and lift the "super marginalized" over the "super privileged" that we've begun to erase those who are undecided, silent, or appear to be someone we've decided is the "villain". how can these places reach a sense of truth and community when we don't allow everyone a seat at the table, and the right to share and validate their experiences?

anyway, i've stopped seeking out a lot of these places because it has started to feel more patronizing and exclusionary to anyone who doesn't meet an arbitrary set of criteria. that's not what real life is -it's a parody of what marketing has told us these archetypes are/should be.

 

[Lamentice]

Both online (and often time in real life as well now..) queer & neurodivergent spaces are toxic in my experience. Don't bother with either of those groups anymore, I just do my own thing, often alone.

You can try hobby-specific activities and groups, not oriented around some piece of identity: pottery, board games, dancing, comedy shows, gardening, bird watching, book clubs, arts & crafts, whatever. But if you do that you have to be doing it because you genuinely love that activity and want more of it in your life; otherwise if it's for friendship and people, you're still likely to be dissapointed (and potentially hurt), there's just a better chance if you go and do your own thing in non-specific spaces you'll meet better people with a stronger common ground and have a more fulfilling time.

it's a bit of a hot take, but i have this issue with a lot of spaces which vocalize being queer and/neurodivergent where they are too… performative?

not sure how else to describe it, but I don't like being forced to announce my identity, mental illnesses or spectrum disorders, or any other personal information like that to a group of people i don't know super intimately. but so many spaces demand you to essentially wear these things like a shirt pin for everyone to see (in some cases, literally). then you get treated like a sort of pariah for not being as queer or as neurodivergent as the others.

you don't get a spot to speak because you're only an ally and don't have as much of a right to share as others do, or you have it better because you're not as marginalized or mistreated as others.

i went to one group with my partner, who had never considered himself to be queer before meeting me, and has slowly been opening himself up to new experiences and revelations about himself. but he comes from a very traumatic home life of intense poverty and abuse, so he's very reluctant to expose so much of himself and trust people -especially right off the bat.
he gets treated like a joke for being a white cis guy in many spaces. often told to "sit down and listen" because they don't realize he's with me -though I don't think the treatment is justified even if he weren't.


spaces have become so eager to find and lift the "super marginalized" over the "super privileged" that we've begun to erase those who are undecided, silent, or appear to be someone we've decided is the "villain". how can these places reach a sense of truth and community when we don't allow everyone a seat at the table, and the right to share and validate their experiences?

anyway, i've stopped seeking out a lot of these places because it has started to feel more patronizing and exclusionary to anyone who doesn't meet an arbitrary set of criteria. that's not what real life is -it's a parody of what marketing has told us these archetypes are/should be.

You are spot on. These communities are rife with hypocrisy & moral posturing.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

it's a bit of a hot take, but i have this issue with a lot of spaces which vocalize being queer and/neurodivergent where they are too… performative?

not sure how else to describe it, but I don't like being forced to announce my identity, mental illnesses or spectrum disorders, or any other personal information like that to a group of people i don't know super intimately. but so many spaces demand you to essentially wear these things like a shirt pin for everyone to see (in some cases, literally). then you get treated like a sort of pariah for not being as queer or as neurodivergent as the others.

you don't get a spot to speak because you're only an ally and don't have as much of a right to share as others do, or you have it better because you're not as marginalized or mistreated as others.

i went to one group with my partner, who had never considered himself to be queer before meeting me, and has slowly been opening himself up to new experiences and revelations about himself. but he comes from a very traumatic home life of intense poverty and abuse, so he's very reluctant to expose so much of himself and trust people -especially right off the bat.
he gets treated like a joke for being a white cis guy in many spaces. often told to "sit down and listen" because they don't realize he's with me -though I don't think the treatment is justified even if he weren't.


spaces have become so eager to find and lift the "super marginalized" over the "super privileged" that we've begun to erase those who are undecided, silent, or appear to be someone we've decided is the "villain". how can these places reach a sense of truth and community when we don't allow everyone a seat at the table, and the right to share and validate their experiences?

anyway, i've stopped seeking out a lot of these places because it has started to feel more patronizing and exclusionary to anyone who doesn't meet an arbitrary set of criteria. that's not what real life is -it's a parody of what marketing has told us these archetypes are/should be.

I haven't been on such spaces for long, mostly acting as an observer than an active participant, but what you experienced is far from a "hot take". Let me explain some things about these spaces:

1. Compulsory Disclosure: There is a sociological concept called "compulsory visibility", where group safety equates to radical transparency, and demanding privacy is seen as hostile to the group, labeling them as individualistic (This is also observed in cults, FYI.)
2. Oppression Olympics: The concept where speaking rights are given to the most "oppressed", which proceeds to establish a competition for such. Basically, a bad application of "Intersectionality" (How many forms of discrimination overlap), so instead of understanding combined disadvantages, it's used to rank people and dismiss those who are "not oppressed enough" to be heard (like your "white cis male" partner).
3. The "Ally" Dynamic and Silencing: The fact that your partner was silenced for being "privileged" fosters a binary, black and white vision of "oppressor" and "oppressed" based on visible characteristics (And since he was silenced, no space was given to dispel this lack of nuance)
4. Performative Archetypes: The rigid stereotypes that communities often embrace to signal belonging really oversimplifies things, and as such exclude those that don't fit it. Essentially, these communities are emphasizing hierarchy and visibility over inclusion. The marginalized start marginalizing themselves.

In the end, more or less, these communities become walled cities that emphasize ever narrowing stereotypes based on oppression rank and that essentially makes them more and more cultish over time. It doesn't describe every community out there, but I'm afraid more and more are becoming like that.

 

[oakash]

I feel conflicted and annoyed because I want these type of spaces to exist and I want to feel like there may be a place for me to feel safe and among like minded kin... And yet, I find, like a lot of groups, they take on all the characteristics already described above , and it can feel like a cult and feel like I struggle to find my way in because I don't perform or subscribe to the unwritten rules. And I don't kiss ass.

 

[turned_to_one]

I feel conflicted and annoyed because I want these type of spaces to exist and I want to feel like there may be a place for me to feel safe and among like minded kin... And yet, I find, like a lot of groups, they take on all the characteristics already described above , and it can feel like a cult and feel like I struggle to find my way in because I don't perform or subscribe to the unwritten rules. And I don't kiss ass.

it may be best to seek out communities who's sole curation isn't centred around personal identity -as this just encourages secular and stereotypical thinking.

probably best to seek communities that have a good community policy and terms, which cater to a more general audience, or hobbyist/interest space

 

[Lamentice]

I haven't been on such spaces for long, mostly acting as an observer than an active participant, but what you experienced is far from a "hot take". Let me explain some things about these spaces:

1. Compulsory Disclosure: There is a sociological concept called "compulsory visibility", where group safety equates to radical transparency, and demanding privacy is seen as hostile to the group, labeling them as individualistic (This is also observed in cults, FYI.)
2. Oppression Olympics: The concept where speaking rights are given to the most "oppressed", which proceeds to establish a competition for such. Basically, a bad application of "Intersectionality" (How many forms of discrimination overlap), so instead of understanding combined disadvantages, it's used to rank people and dismiss those who are "not oppressed enough" to be heard (like your "white cis male" partner).
3. The "Ally" Dynamic and Silencing: The fact that your partner was silenced for being "privileged" fosters a binary, black and white vision of "oppressor" and "oppressed" based on visible characteristics (And since he was silenced, no space was given to dispel this lack of nuance)
4. Performative Archetypes: The rigid stereotypes that communities often embrace to signal belonging really oversimplifies things, and as such exclude those that don't fit it. Essentially, these communities are emphasizing hierarchy and visibility over inclusion. The marginalized start marginalizing themselves.

In the end, more or less, these communities become walled cities that emphasize ever narrowing stereotypes based on oppression rank and that essentially makes them more and more cultish over time. It doesn't describe every community out there, but I'm afraid more and more are becoming like that.

Amazing points!

And to just add to the discussion, I think a lot of queer and neurodivergent folk have a propensity to be chronically online (specifically social media like Twitter and TikTok) because there are less spaces for them in real life, and frankly this is just a very negative thing for how people then interact with their external world and percieve reality. I think it contributes to a very stunted, narrow, competitive, and insecure world view (ironically for how concerned many are with being "open-minded" but then live terminally in radicalized echo chambers and rage bait)--but given queer and neurodivergent folk tend to likely be already somewhat stunted by traumatic lived experiences, it's just really on a whole other level.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Amazing points!

And to just add to the discussion, I think a lot of queer and neurodivergent folk have a propensity to be chronically online (specifically social media like Twitter and TikTok) because there are less spaces for them in real life, and frankly this is just a very negative thing for how people then interact with their external world and percieve reality. I think it contributes to a very stunted, narrow, competitive, and insecure world view (ironically for how concerned many are with being "open-minded" but then live terminally in radicalized echo chambers and rage bait)--but given queer and neurodivergent folk tend to likely be already somewhat stunted by traumatic lived experiences, it's just really on a whole other level.

While I agree with the fact that being terminally online can and will degrade perception of reality and exacerbate social difficulties, the fact that queer and ND people are doing this reflects the social stigma that they still face from society.

If anything, it shows how they are still victims even as they can be assholes. It doesn't make them immune from criticism or scrutiny, but it does explain some of the whys and hows of it.

 

[Lamentice]

While I agree with the fact that being terminally online can and will degrade perception of reality and exacerbate social difficulties, the fact that queer and ND people are doing this reflects the social stigma that they still face from society.

If anything, it shows how they are still victims even as they can be assholes. It doesn't make them immune from criticism or scrutiny, but it does explain some of the whys and hows of it.

Definitely, agreed!

 

[isthisit?]

I hate these kinds of groups. From what I've seen firsthand, they make being neurodivergent a good thing and think that it's quirky and fun. I don't get the need to announce to the world who I am.
Before I was diagnosed, I had very negative opinions on divergent people getting special treatment or a free pass and even after getting diagnosed, I feel the same way.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

I've fallen out with the idea of these groups too, even though they were useful for me in the past, especially when I was younger and more eager to find friends who are similar to me, because there were no other autistic people where I lived.

The main reason why I dislike modern "neuro diversity" groups is that the purpose has shifted away from support and camaraderie to basically silencing anyone who struggles in their daily lives due to disability. Many people don't even believe that autism can be disabling anymore, and that it is simply a unique neurotype. That line of thinking is dangerous to me, because if it continues it will eventually be used to erode the already meager support and protections available for autistic people.

It is scary to me that over the past few years more and more people have expected me to have special talents or skills because I am autistic. They've been fed these lines by social media and the loud proponents of the neurodoversity movement, to the point where they refuse to acknowledge the struggles of autistic people and the challenges we face every day. What's even worse is other autistic people doing this now, and not believing that others may have different levels of support needs than them.

One example of this I witnessed in these groups was higher functioning individuals mocking and putting down a young guy who also suffered from learning disabilities on top of ASD. Because he could not pass his GCSEs during the normal timeframe, he had to go to day school as an adult and was getting quite frustrated with it.

The other members of this community genuinely could not seem to believe that a person could end up in this sort of situation due to being disabled, and believed it was a lack of effort on his part. The culture of such groups has shifted so far towards the direction of acceptance/autism not being an issue, that they talk down to people who have support needs and act as if those individuals aren't true autistic representation, or simply have a bad attitude.

 

[N-methylamphetamine]

Curious as to your experiences with online ND spaces. I have been a part of online ND spaces since 2001. Joined Asperger's Women on Myspace back in the day. I used to believe very strongly in neurodiversity but I'm very sour on it these days. In large part because of what these spaces have become.

What do you think? Any recommendations?

they dont actually support ND, what they want is for you to follow social norms. Same thing with mentally ill people, people say they support mental illness until someone is actually mentally ill.

 

[SchizoPolyGymnast]

I'm back, and trying to catch up!

My main beef with ND spaces is that they are largely dominated by self diagnosed and late diagnosed folks saying that x condition isn't actually a disability. And as someone who has a disability that was evident as a toddler, who attended years of special education, including two years of special segregated schooling, who has experienced two psychiatric hospitalizations...I don't appreciate people who are higher functioning than me talking *over* me about my own life.

I'm not saying these people don't struggle or don't need support. I'm saying that they're dominating a discussion they only recently joined, and people in my position who have lived it for decades are straight up bullied out of the space.

 

[SchizoPolyGymnast]

I've fallen out with the idea of these groups too, even though they were useful for me in the past, especially when I was younger and more eager to find friends who are similar to me, because there were no other autistic people where I lived.

The main reason why I dislike modern "neuro diversity" groups is that the purpose has shifted away from support and camaraderie to basically silencing anyone who struggles in their daily lives due to disability. Many people don't even believe that autism can be disabling anymore, and that it is simply a unique neurotype. That line of thinking is dangerous to me, because if it continues it will eventually be used to erode the already meager support and protections available for autistic people.

It is scary to me that over the past few years more and more people have expected me to have special talents or skills because I am autistic. They've been fed these lines by social media and the loud proponents of the neurodoversity movement, to the point where they refuse to acknowledge the struggles of autistic people and the challenges we face every day. What's even worse is other autistic people doing this now, and not believing that others may have different levels of support needs than them.

One example of this I witnessed in these groups was higher functioning individuals mocking and putting down a young guy who also suffered from learning disabilities on top of ASD. Because he could not pass his GCSEs during the normal timeframe, he had to go to day school as an adult and was getting quite frustrated with it.

The other members of this community genuinely could not seem to believe that a person could end up in this sort of situation due to being disabled, and believed it was a lack of effort on his part. The culture of such groups has shifted so far towards the direction of acceptance/autism not being an issue, that they talk down to people who have support needs and act as if those individuals aren't true autistic representation, or simply have a bad attitude.

Exactly. Do they think blind people all have supersonic hearing? Or that all deaf people are like Beethoven? There's just no critical thinking at all. I'm at the point where I no longer tell people I have an autism diagnosis because instead of offering me the support I desperately need and am asking for...they immediately start talking about how they have a touch of the 'tism too and how everyone is a little autistic. One employer actually told me autism is no big deal and I should be doing better than I am.

 

[Always-in-trouble]

Exactly. Do they think blind people all have supersonic hearing? Or that all deaf people are like Beethoven? There's just no critical thinking at all. I'm at the point where I no longer tell people I have an autism diagnosis because instead of offering me the support I desperately need and am asking for...they immediately start talking about how they have a touch of the 'tism too and how everyone is a little autistic. One employer actually told me autism is no big deal and I should be doing better than I am.

I wonder if people are actually being taught any of the debilitating aspects of autism anymore.

 

[SchizoPolyGymnast]

I wonder if people are actually being taught any of the debilitating aspects of autism anymore.

I can promise you they are not. Even school districts are told to write up "strengths-based" IEPs. Well, I'm not in special education because of my strengths, my guy.

While I agree with the fact that being terminally online can and will degrade perception of reality and exacerbate social difficulties, the fact that queer and ND people are doing this reflects the social stigma that they still face from society.

If anything, it shows how they are still victims even as they can be assholes. It doesn't make them immune from criticism or scrutiny, but it does explain some of the whys and hows of it.

The sad part is that this behavior virtually guarantees that these people will face backlash and hence more victimization. At some point (and I include myself in this), you have given step outside of yourself and break the cycle.