Life Is a Cardboard Box

[KafkaF]

I'm in bed, typing on my phone and I took half a sleeping pill so this may not be the most coherent thing I've ever written. And I'll probably make spelling mistakes.

Anyway, here's my philosophy (if you can call it that) on the value of life.

Life is a cardboard box. On itself it has no value. But fill it with toys, put a bow on it and put it under a christmas tree and it's a present filled with happiness and desirex by all. Fill it with a pile of shit and bills and it's a disgusting mess you'd rather not have gotten.

Of course, the reality is rarely quite that simple. Most cardboard boxes have some shit and some toys. And you help fill your own cardboard box throughout life. Determining what has value and what doesn't. And you can't see what's in the box until you pull it out. You can maybe guess, but never know up front. For better or worse.

Basically, in my view, life has no value on its own. Like the cardboard box its value is entirely about what's in it. What it contains.

I understand CTB. I am planning that myself, after all. Because sometimes you get a box full of shit and you can't seem to find anything else. At that point it has a negative value and non-existence seems better. As non-existence is basically the 0 point.

On the other hand, people do get better. People do find happy lives after a period of darkness sometimes. They finally start pulling out toys. Life then has a positive value, better than non-existence. As +1 is greater than 0.

So I guess my main message is just... CTB can be a valid choice and should be respected. But no one should lose sight that you're always throwing away the entire box. So you need to be sure that's a sacrifice that's outweighed by all the shit before you do it. Because you don't want to throw away toys you could've had.

And that's only a decision each of us can make for ourselves. Hopefully in a considered way.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Actually, you alone, separate from every material possession or achievement, are already complete as you are. You could sit in place until you died and your life would be equal to someone who changed the world in someway.

You are the universe made sentient. Every atom in your body came from stars. The greatest lie we have been told is that we are nothing without our possessions and accomplishments.

 

[4am]

if life is a cardboard box then i'm whatever is the complete opposite of a cat

 

[KafkaF]

Actually, you alone, separate from every material possession or achievement, are already complete as you are. You could sit in place until you died and your life would be equal to someone who changed the world in someway.

You are the universe made sentient. Every atom in your body came from stars. The greatest lie we have been told is that we are nothing without our possessions and accomplishments.

I didn't talk about completeness. I was talking about experience. And your experience sure as hell changes depending on whether you sit here or go do something else.

You clearly have a very different idea of "equal" as I do not see a life full of happiness as equal to a life of suffering.

Also, no offense, but this all sounds like pseudoscience.

 

[Ambivalent1]

I didn't talk about completeness. I was talking about experience. And your experience sure as hell changes depending on whether you sit here or go do something else.

You clearly have a very different idea of "equal" as I do not see a life full of happiness as equal to a life of suffering.

Also, no offense, but this all sounds like pseudoscience.

We are star stuff and we have consciousness, which means we are the universe made sentient. Scientific fact. Look it up yourself.

I don't feel like addressing your other stuff.

 

[KafkaF]

We are star stuff and we have consciousness, which means we are the universe made sentient. Scientific fact. Look it up yourself.

I don't feel like addressing your other stuff.

I mean, yes, we are a conscious part of the universe. That is true. But the way you were using that in the rest of what you said I don't think has much meaning.

You can say a Boeing 747 is a plane that can fly us to the next dimension because of gremlins being attracted to the number 747 and that isn't a substantive statement just because it's true that a 747 is a plane.

I already knew when typing up my originsl post that we are all sentient parts of the universe made of starstuff. And as far as I'm concerned that takes nothing away from anything else.

 

[DarkRange55]

We are star stuff and we have consciousness, which means we are the universe made sentient. Scientific fact. Look it up yourself.

I don't feel like addressing your other stuff.

The concept that "we are star stuff" refers to the idea that the atoms that make up our bodies were forged in the cores of stars through nuclear fusion. Regarding consciousness, it's a complex topic with various philosophical, scientific, and spiritual interpretations. Some see consciousness as an emergent property of complex brain processes, while others view it as interconnectedness with the universe. The idea of being "the universe made sentient" is a poetic expression of interconnectedness and the profound nature of human existence.

The phrase "we are star stuff" is famously attributed to the renowned astrophysicist Carl Sagan. He popularized this idea in his television series "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage," which aired in 1980. Sagan used this phrase to emphasize the connection between the elements that make up life on Earth and the processes that occur within stars.

The universe by definition encompasses all that exists.

 

[Ambivalent1]

The concept that "we are star stuff" refers to the idea that the atoms that make up our bodies were forged in the cores of stars through nuclear fusion. Regarding consciousness, it's a complex topic with various philosophical, scientific, and spiritual interpretations. Some see consciousness as an emergent property of complex brain processes, while others view it as interconnectedness with the universe. The idea of being "the universe made sentient" is a poetic expression of interconnectedness and the profound nature of human existence.

The phrase "we are star stuff" is famously attributed to the renowned astrophysicist Carl Sagan. He popularized this idea in his television series "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage," which aired in 1980. Sagan used this phrase to emphasize the connection between the elements that make up life on Earth and the processes that occur within stars.

The universe by definition encompasses all that exists.

What was the purpose of elaborating on my post? Sounds like a chatgpt thing.

 

[DarkRange55]

What was the purpose of elaborating on my post? Sounds like a chatgpt thing.

1. I have an advanced degree in physics…
2. I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan
3. I am ChatGPT
4. It's poetic and not literal, so that sounds like it came off as a red herring to be honest

I'm taking a guess, when you say equal, you are referring to value being a subjective human construct and objectively in the absolute, all humans are equally (worthless)

The purpose was when you said it's a science fact, look it up

 

[KafkaF]

The concept that "we are star stuff" refers to the idea that the atoms that make up our bodies were forged in the cores of stars through nuclear fusion. Regarding consciousness, it's a complex topic with various philosophical, scientific, and spiritual interpretations. Some see consciousness as an emergent property of complex brain processes, while others view it as interconnectedness with the universe. The idea of being "the universe made sentient" is a poetic expression of interconnectedness and the profound nature of human existence.

The phrase "we are star stuff" is famously attributed to the renowned astrophysicist Carl Sagan. He popularized this idea in his television series "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage," which aired in 1980. Sagan used this phrase to emphasize the connection between the elements that make up life on Earth and the processes that occur within stars.

The universe by definition encompasses all that exists.

I'm aware of all this. I just didn't agree with the larger implication I interpreted the statement as having being a sensible conclusion based on that.

 

[DarkRange55]

I mean, yes, we are a conscious part of the universe. That is true. But the way you were using that in the rest of what you said I don't think has much meaning.

You can say a Boeing 747 is a plane that can fly us to the next dimension because of gremlins being attracted to the number 747 and that isn't a substantive statement just because it's true that a 747 is a plane.

I already knew when typing up my originsl post that we are all sentient parts of the universe made of starstuff. And as far as I'm concerned that takes nothing away from anything else.

I think reality is what you make of it. Life has the meaning you find in it or give it.

 

[KafkaF]

I think reality is what you make of it. Life has the meaning you find in it or give it.

I more-or-less agree.

 

[Ambivalent1]

1. I have an advanced degree in physics…
2. I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan
3. I am ChatGPT
4. It's poetic and not literal, so that sounds like it came off as a red herring to be honest

I'm taking a guess, when you say equal, you are referring to value being a subjective human construct and objectively in the absolute, all humans are equally (worthless)

The purpose was when you said it's a science fact, look it up

You are chatgpt? What?

 

[DarkRange55]

I'm aware of all this. I just didn't agree with the larger implication I interpreted the statement as having being a sensible conclusion based on that.

I was just correcting the "it's a scientific fact," because I, maybe incorrectly, interpreted that phrasing as, therefore humans are inherently objectively valuable. When the truth is, thats a poetic saying.

You are chatgpt? What?

I'm assuming you haven't seen many of my posts and the reputation I've developed on here…
It's just a joke :p
Don't read too far into it.

Actually, you alone, separate from every material possession or achievement, are already complete as you are. You could sit in place until you died and your life would be equal to someone who changed the world in someway.

You are the universe made sentient. Every atom in your body came from stars. The greatest lie we have been told is that we are nothing without our possessions and accomplishments.

Not to nitpick, which I do, do a lot, but the hydrogen atoms in your body were not formed through stellar nuclear fusion. Not an attack, just a clarification for reference.

Citation if needed:

Is my body really made up of star stuff?

 

[KafkaF]

I was just correcting the "it's a scientific fact," because I, maybe incorrectly, interpreted that phrasing as, therefore humans are inherently objectively valuable. When the truth is, thats a poetic saying.

That is pretty much (part of) what I was objecting to in the original statement as well.

The part I was saying is a scientific fact is just that we are made from elements created in stars, through supernovae, through neutron star collisions, etc. And that we are part of the universe. But I was stating as scientific fact nothing more than that.

As far as I'm concerned, all meaning is freely chosen and created and experienced by conscious beings. All happiness and suffering experienced by them. And us being made of starstuff I don't see as taking away from that.

 

[DarkRange55]

That is pretty much (part of) what I was objecting to in the original statement as well.

The part I was saying is a scientific fact is just that we are made from elements created in starts, through supernovae, through neutron star collisions, etc. And that we are part of the universe. But I was stating as scientific fact nothing more than that.

As far as I'm concerned, all meaning is freely chosen and created and experienced by conscious beings. All happiness and suffering experienced by them. And us being made of starstuff I don't see as taking away from that.

Now I feel bad, I didn't even see that in your OP my mistake! I just got fixated on the comment (and it wasn't even yours) about it being a scientific fact lol having a science background it can just irk me sometimes see that tossed around.
I don't know, some people extrapolate on that kind of stuff…

I think you and I are in total agreement.

 

[KafkaF]

Now I feel bad, I didn't even see that in your OP my mistake! I just got fixated on the comment (and it wasn't even yours) about it being a scientific fact lol having a science background it can just irk me sometimes see that tossed around.

I think you and I are in total agreement.

Well, I was using a metaphor so I can see how it could get confusing what I meant the "Boeing 747" vs. what I saw as "the gremlins." I love both physics and philosophy so you and I are of a similar mind on that.

Yes, indeed I think we are.

 

[DarkRange55]

Well, I was using a metaphor so I can see how it could get confusing what I meant the "Boeing 747" vs. what I saw as "the gremlins." I love both physics and philosophy so you and I are of a similar mind on that.

Yes, indeed I think we are.

That's awesome

 

[Pluto]

 

[KafkaF]

View attachment 133210

Dude, if my life was that box it'd be so awesome. I love cats.

 

[sserafim]

I think reality is what you make of it. Life has the meaning you find in it or give it.

Absurdism be like

 

[DarkRange55]

Absurdism be like

my understanding is that absurdism says trying to find meaning brings you into conflict with the inherent meaningless of the universe - I don't agree, personally. I think differentiating between objective meaning and subjective meaning or simply saying, this is the aught of my existence, this is what I want to do but its not necessarily a meaning…
But I could be mistaken in my understanding. The term has some debate around its exact interpretation.

Absurdism be like

Can you please explain to our stary friend that I am ChatGPT?

 

[sserafim]

my understanding is that absurdism says trying to find meaning brings you into conflict with the inherent meaningless of the universe - I don't agree, personally. I think differentiating between objective meaning and subjective meaning or simply saying, this is the aught of my existence, this is what I want to do but its not necessarily a meaning…
But I could be mistaken in my understanding. The term has some debate around its exact interpretation.

Did you see my post on the other thread?

 

[DarkRange55]

Did you see my post on the other thread?

Oh, about the DM?

 

[sserafim]

Oh, about the DM?

Yeah lol

 

[Pluto]

Dude, if my life was that box it'd be so awesome. I love cats.

I finally read the thread. I really like your idea. I can contribute some wacky perspectives that broadly approximate some Eastern viewpoints.

1) All the box's contents are undesirable.
There is still inherent Duhkha or suffering in every thing. 'Good' things carry their opposite within them, like opposite sides of the same coin that can never be separated. Life has death, health has sickness, youth has age, growth has decay, kindness has cruelty and wealth has poverty.
Even in a best case scenario - say, a sheltered, effortless life as the Buddha himself had in his princely early life - nothing has been accomplished but running from the shadows. This would be considered a waste of a lifetime, in contrast to one who took the Joseph Campbell hero's journey and overcame all the aforementioned dualities to reach a liberated state beyond even life and death.

2) There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.
Admittedly that line sounds suspiciously like a Shakespeare quote, but let's go with it. Zen is full of stories about the total indifference of masters to seemingly good and bad events.

Spoiler: Eckhart Tolle shared but one in his book, A New Earth

This is illustrated in the story of a wise man who won an expensive car in a lottery.

His family and friends were very happy for him and came to celebrate. 'Isn't it great!' they said. 'You are so lucky.' The man smiled and said 'Maybe.'

For a few weeks he enjoyed driving the car. Then one day a drunken driver crashed into his new car at an intersection and he ended up in the hospital, with multiple injuries. His family and friends came to see him and said, 'That was really unfortunate.' Again the man smiled and said, 'Maybe.'

While he was still in the hospital, one night there was a landslide and his house fell into the sea. Again his friends came the next day and said, 'Weren't you lucky to have been here in hospital.' Again he said, 'Maybe.'

3) What of the empty space in the box?
The human mind and its activities are all about wrestling with life to try and possess good things and expel bad things. What it does not want to do is put any attention in the substratum. In this analogy, that could be the empty space in the box, around the box, around the universe and even within the atoms of items within the box.
The mind will say, "Of course the emptiness is worthless since there is nothing there." But this is only its ignorant perspective, anchored in the endless drama of duality. Contemplation of the emptiness is a portal to a state that transcends the world of good and bad. ("I have overcome the world.")

4) The box is consciousness
I once let fly with a little rant about the bitter state of my life on a nonduality forum. Someone replied by paraphrasing the renowned French teacher, Francis Lucille. The comment was along the lines that life (the box) or even its contents cannot be positive or negative without a mental judgement. The classic example is deep sleep, where there is no mental activity so there is nothing to like or dislike. Deep sleep can be called neutral or positive, for its absence of suffering.
If this is understood deeply, it exposes the mind as a troublemaking entity. It professes to be taking us to a better place, yet is actually causing all problems. Ramana Maharshi once used the analogy of a policeman who never catches the thief, because the policeman secretly is the thief. Understood correctly, the goal then becomes freedom. Not freedom for the personal self, but freedom from the personal self.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I really like this analogy.

What's tragic of course is that we, like cardboard are actually kind of fragile. As we get older and degrade, our 'box' can become less capable of holding our memories- good and bad and we have less control over what we pull out of it. Sadly with things like dementia, we can get stuck pulling out our unpleasant memories. A friends Mum is suffering at the moment and seems to be reliving unpleasant parts of her childhood. Reliving my childhood is definitely something I want to avoid! I hope I can smash that box to bits like a piñata before I end up like that!

Personally, I do actually feel the same as you- that life itself has no inherent meaning or value- for me but, I suspect that's because we don't particularly like the contents of our boxes. The box is an opportunity to experience things, be aware of them and remember them. Plenty of people would actually say that was the most important thing of all. They may actually think it's incredible they were blessed with sentience and memory- even if they'd lived a difficult life with an equal mixture of shit and roses in that box.

 

[Tears in Rain]

1) All the box's contents are undesirable.
There is still inherent Duhkha or suffering in every thing.

Why is everything in the box undesirable? Why is there suffering in everything?
What about the pleasurable stuff in life, like sex, chocolate, tea, etc.? Or in your case cats?

4) The box is consciousness
I once let fly with a little rant about the bitter state of my life on a nonduality forum.

Does anyone on these nonduality forums ever do anything with that information, that life might actually be nondual?

Understood correctly, the goal then becomes freedom. Not freedom for the personal self, but freedom from the personal self.

Is that your goal in life, freedom from the personal self?

 

[KafkaF]

Why is everything in the box undesirable? Why is there suffering in everything?
What about the pleasurable stuff in life, like sex, chocolate, tea, etc.? Or in your case cats?


Does anyone on these nonduality forums ever do anything with that information, that life might actually be nondual?


Is that your goal in life, freedom from the personal self?

Yes, and the last part of the reply is kind of contradictory.

They're saying that life cannot be positive or negative without mental judgement. Then saying when you're asleep you're not mentally judging. And then saying this means sleep can be either positive or negative... but this is wrong by their own logic. By their own logic it can be either positive, or negative, or neutral. It can be all three.

If sleep can be positive because it is the absence of suffering, then it can be negative in that it is the absence of joy.

And so the ultimate conclusion to sketch the mind as a "troublemaking entity" falls apart. Because by this logic it can be a troublemaking entity (in that its absence is an absence of suffering) or a "happy-making entity" because in its absence there is an absence of happiness.

The whole thing can only work by defining it into existence. Specifically by defining things only in terms of "absence of suffering" and completely ignoring the existence of joy... just cuz. This is selective and everyone can instinctively understand why that's not a full reflection of the human experience. Because there is a substantive difference, experientially, between simply the absence of suffering and the presence of happiness.

It's true, without consciousness you can't suffer. But you also can't experience happiness. And that last part is disregarded because it doesn't work for the nihilistic ideal that is being advocated for. Because the nihilism is the starting point that these ideas try to work towards even if it is presented as the conclusion. But the logic doesn't really work. It's essentially circular reasoning. And you can come to any conclusion you want that way, no matter how untruthful.

As far as I'm concerned, people give their own meaning to their lives. If someone wants to live their life with the ultimate goal of reaching complete neutrality, then that's their right. But I think unburdened by preconceptions and philosophical justifications, anyone can instinctively understand the following is our innate preference:
1. Happiness
2. Neutrality
3. Suffering

And whatever mix of suffering, happiness and neutrality your life is, you have to judge whether the complete neutrality of death is preferable to it. Because death is both an absence of suffering and an absence of happiness.

 

[Pluto]

Why is everything in the box undesirable? Why is there suffering in everything?
What about the pleasurable stuff in life, like sex, chocolate, tea, etc.? Or in your case cats?


Does anyone on these nonduality forums ever do anything with that information, that life might actually be nondual?


Is that your goal in life, freedom from the personal self?

Pleasure exists, but is subject to impermanence. Even cats. In a best case scenario, the dilemma familiar to drug users - needing more and more, yet feeling less and less - applies. Thus, it is not considered a solution to duhkha, especially when accounting for the bigger-picture narrative around death and samsara.

The nonduality community is a topic in itself. There are people at all stages, with many of them having telltale pitfalls of the ego. Such as feeling 'better than' less enlightened people, for example.

The initial awakening can be very difficult for some people, yet even it is the beginning of a long pathway. It continues to get weirder; for example, Angelo Dilullo describes a later stage whereby the basic sense of physical separation ('here' and 'there') dissolves and the world looks completely different, requiring much getting used to.

As for the goal, there appear to be particular difficulties where issues like trauma are concerned. People who are suffering in this way have ample motivation to directly chase freedom, yet attempting to use awakening to escape the trauma doesn't work. For me, this has been an extremely messy dilemma leading to alternating between trying to deal with the life situation or trying to find liberation. It isn't clear if I am destined to get anywhere on either front in this lifetime but I've been seemingly stuck for a long time.

Some people arrive at spirituality because their lives are a disaster, while others are at the opposite end of the spectrum: they have gained everything that is supposed to make someone happy, yet are acutely aware that something huge is still missing.

If sleep can be positive because it is the absence of suffering, then it can be negative in that it is the absence of joy.

This is very messy to talk about because we don't really have the right words for it.

Ramana Maharshi said that happiness is inherent in people, and is not due to external causes. In other words, we are always happy by default. The state of deep sleep is considered a positive state. But this is using the word 'happy' in an unconventional sense; it may even be a mistranslation. In Zen, the goal of deep inner peace is considered infinitely more desirable than passing pleasures.

Then there's the actual state that aspirants are striving for: an awareness of being completely timeless, (no birth or death) one with everything and free of all problems. It is still possible to enjoy the world - in fact, that is the only time it can truly be enjoyed. But the entire structure of self that is constantly resisting everything is gone. In this state, even sorrow, when the experience comes and goes like a passing cloud, is said to be deeply enjoyable.

In short, words like 'happiness' can cause more confusion than anything.