Venting It’s very absurd to me how this society is so anti-death even know we are all just destined to die anyway

[Aim]

 

[hibikikyuxx]

It's very easy to engage with you from now on

I didn't know you have trouble doing the bare minimum, like talking to another person.

First you quoted me first. It doesn't matter what I said afterwards

First of all, you literally promised another user that you would stop replying and how our conversation ended. But then you continued our conversation even though it was already over.

But alright then, liar.

I showed you statistics that said 9 out of 10 people who attempt suicide have no more attempt afterwards which means it was impulsive and they reevaluated their perspective.

No, that's only because they are either too afraid to attempt again, or found a way to cope.

Which means recovery is possible for the majority of those who attempt suicide. It is a fact.

It's not a fact.

Prove to me that most kids are unhappy and are suicidal

Prove to me that most kids are happy.

I'd love to see data on how many teenagers express suicidal intent and for how long it has been going on.

You know damn well that most children/teenagers keep their suicidal thoughts to themselves, especially the boys who are afraid of being treated like trash if they told anyone about their suicidal thoughts.

Because if you are gonna claim that forcing existence was a bad thing

It is automatically a bad thing because it happend solely because two people decided to experience a little pleasure. Forcing someone into existence literally means "hey, I know you wouldn't ever have to suffer if it wasn't for us, but anways, here you go, now you need to live and have the ability to experience pain, stress, all kinds of bad emotions, you're under the risk of abuse, rape, and murder, and are forced to go to school for years and work for decades, but who cares, society says child birth is a good thing so it's a good thing".

for those children I'd love to see statistics on how many kids regret being born

Same reason as above. That's impossible as most children/teenagers keep those kind of thoughts to themselves due to being afraid of being judged.

Suicidal intent, self harm etc. if you can find them I'd love to see them.

If you can find the statistics on how many people that are parents should be parents, I'd love to see it.

Otherwise it's just a pointless conversation because you can't back up anything you say.

Are you talking about yourself? You're the one who can't back up anything you say.

You said that recovery is possible for everyone.

You said that forcing someone into existence is a good thing because "you never know :)".

On the other hand, when you asked me what humanity did to earth, I gave you the proof that humanity has wiped out 60% percent of animals since 1970, and that there are 36 animal species that became extinct due to human activity.

 

[divinemistress36]

Mod close this from further replies

 

[DreamEnd]

I didn't know you have trouble doing the bare minimum.

k

You literally promised another user that you would stop replying and how our conversation ended.

But alright then, liar.

Again you quoted me first

No, that's only because they are either too afraid to attempt again, or found a way to cope.

That's your interpretation of it. I trust Harvard professionals more.

This relatively good long-term survival rate is consistent with the observation that suicidal crises are often short-lived, even if there may be underlying, more chronic risk factors present that give rise to these crises.

Key word is short lived.
Isn't finding a way to cope recovering in a way?

It's not a fact.

It is literally been studied with over 90 studies about it lol

Prove to me that most kids are happy.

According to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW), in 2014 almost 14% of children aged between 4–11 experienced a mental disorder, with ADHD followed by anxiety disorders the most common.

More recent data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that in 2019 one in five (20.9%) adolescents aged 12–17 had previously experienced a major depressive disorder and one in three (36.7%) reported feeling sad or hopeless.

So most. And this statistics doesn't count how many were able to get successful treatment and got better. So it's technically even less than that. So most are happy yes. Prove otherwise? I showed you my data now you show yours

You know damn well that most children/teenagers keep their suicidal thoughts to themselves, especially the boys who are afraid of being treated like trash if they told anyone about their suicidal thoughts.

Not really. Where I grew up kids were open with their parents about suicidal thought etc.

It is automatically a bad thing because it happend solely because two people decided to experience a little pleasure.

Tell me you never had kids without telling me. If they just wanted pleasure they would use condoms lmao.

Forcing someone into existence literally means "hey, I know youldn't ever have to suffer, but anways, here you go, now you need to live and be able to experience pain, you're under the risk of abuse, rape, and murder, and are forced to go to school for years and work for decades, but who cares, society says child birth is a good thing so it's a good thing".

Life is an adventure after all:) ups and downs etc. being dead all the time is kind of boring lmao.

Same reason as above. That's impossible as most children/teenagers keep those kind of thoughts to themselves due to being afraid of being judged.

Data? Proof? I think it's untrue what you say

If you can find the statistics on how many people that are parents should be parents, I'd love to see it.

Lmao

Are you talking about yourself? You're the one who can't back up anything you say.

Backed up everything. Read above.

You said that recovery is possible for everyone.

Nope not for everybody

You said that forcing someone into existence is a good thing because "you never know :)".

They may have a bad life or the best life ever. How do you know which one they are gonna have?

On the other hand, when you asked me what humanity did to earth, I gave you the proof that humanity has wiped out 60% percent of animals since 1970, and that there are 36 animal species that became extinct due to human activity.

Well we are the top of the food chain duh. Are you gonna blame wolves for eating sheep now?

And I don't get you antinatalists at all. So you think it's better for no one to have kids so that humanity just dies out and that's it? I don't think that's necessarily true. People have goals they want to make humanity better, advance it so that more people are happier etc. and they are moving toward those goals.

100000 years of human life on earth and not a single society was anti natalist. But you are the one who knows better right. We all should be anti natalists now and let it all die out. Wow.

 

[hibikikyuxx]

Again you quoted me first

Again, our conversation was over, and you promised another user that you would stop replying, and so did I, but then you replied anyway. That's on you.

That's your interpretation of it.

Same goes to you.

This relatively good long-term survival rate is consistent with the observation that suicidal crises are often short-lived, even if there may be underlying, more chronic risk factors present that give rise to these crises.

Key word is short lived.

If someone's suicidal crisis is short-lived then they aren't suicidal or only doing it out of desperation.

When I said that I'm pro choice, I meant that everyone who genuinely wants to die since years should have the right for it, which doesn't include the people who wants to die because they have having a crisis or breakdown.

Isn't finding a way to cope recovering in a way?

There is a difference between recovering from depression and coping. I don't think you can truly recover from it, but I guess you can cope with antidepressants or other ways, but even though, antidepressants isn't working for many depressed people.

It is literally been studied with over 90 studies about it lol

Just because many people who attempted suicide because of a crisis/breakdown never tried suicide again doesn't mean that recovery is possible for the majority who attempt suicide.

According to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW), in 2014 almost 14% of children aged between 4–11 experienced a mental disorder, with ADHD followed by anxiety disorders the most common.

Ok.

this statistics doesn't count how many were able to get successful treatment and got better. So it's technically even less than that. So most are happy

Does this statistics include the children who live in poverty? The children from the warzones?

Not really. Where I grew up kids were open with their parents about suicidal thought etc

You must be from the future.

Tell me you never had kids without telling me. If they just wanted pleasure they would use condoms lmao

Do you really think that they didn't do it for the pleasure just because they didn't use condoms lmao? Not everyone enjoys sex with condoms.

Life is an adventure after all:) ups and downs etc. being dead all the time is kind of boring lmao

You can't perceive nor really experience death, how would you know if it was boring or not? Child birth is a serious decision and you're treating it like a casual game. The world is overpopulated exactly because of people who have the same mindset as you.

I think it's untrue what you say

Are you deaf? How do you get data from children/teenagers who are afraid of being judged due to their suicidal thoughts? Unless you can look into other people's minds?

Backed up everything

No you didn't. You said that recovery is possible for everyone and that child birth is a good thing. Both things are your opinions.

Nope not for everybody

Now you changed your mind?

They may have a bad life or the best life ever. How do you know which one they are gonna have?

That kind of mindset is selfish and corrupt. Because again, you're willingly putting someone under the risk of abuse, rape, and murder, willingly putting someone into a life where they have to slave away for decades just to be able to afford living, etc.

Well we are the top of the food chain duh.

So?

Are you gonna blame wolves for eating sheep now?

Do wolves kill sheep for clothes? No.

And I don't get you antinatalists at all.

I'm not a antinatalist you pro lifer.

So you think it's better for no one to have kids so that humanity just dies out and that's it?

There are over 8 billion people on this overpopulated earth. What I think is, if anything, that it would be better if child birth gets treated as a more serious decision, rather than just everyone being able to have children even though they aren't meant to be parents.

I don't think that's necessarily true. People have goals they want to make humanity better, advance it so that more people are happier etc. and they are moving toward those goals

That doesn't mean every random bozo should be allowed to force someone into existence.

If someone is poor, they shouldn't have children.
If someone has anger issues, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is abusive, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is racist, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is homophobic, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is old, they shouldn't have children.

100000 years of human life on earth and not a single society was anti natalist.

Because humanity tends to have a god complex so most people want to have mini versions of themselves. That's why even though there are so many orphans out there, people rather force a new life into existence, so that they have control over someone. Many people become parents just so that they can be in control of someone.

But you are the one who knows better right

I know that not everyone should be a parent, unlike you who thinks that everyone should be allowed to have children.

We all should be anti natalists now and let it all die out

Nobody said that.

 

[DreamEnd]

Ok.

Again, our conversation was over, and you promised another user that you would stop replying, and so did I, but then you replied anyway. That's on you.

yes it was over but you responded again so i responded to you

Same goes to you.

k

If someone's suicidal crisis is short-lived then they aren't suicidal or only doing it out of desperation.

Well they are suicidal for that period.

When I said that I'm pro choice, I meant that everyone who genuinely wants to die since years should have the right for it, which doesn't include the people who wants to die because they have having a crisis or breakdown.

OH wow because before you advocated for walk in euthanesia clinics which would kill literally everyone who is having a suicidal crisis. So now you changed your position? I am glad I could help you:)

There is a difference between recovering from depression and coping. I don't think you can truly recover from it, but I guess you can cope with antidepressants or other ways.

Well you can stop being suicidal which is good enough for recovery

Just because many people who attempted suicide because of a crisis/breakdown never tried suicide again doesn't mean that recovery is possible for the majority who attempt suicide.

Then they would try again but they dont which means they arent suicidal anymore which means they have recovered. According to the data yes recovery is possible for the majority of people. I have provided you with data that supports that claim and you have shown me nothing to support your points

Ok.

Ok.

Does this statistics include the children who live in poverty? The children from the warzones?

I live in the US. So its the us statistics. It includes children of all financial standing. If you have data to prove me otherwise i am waiting.
The majority of children dont live in warzones and warzones arent depictions of regular life of children, you are dishonestly taking it to the extreme because you cant defend your claims otherwise

You must be from the future.

So another non answer? Find me data on kids admitting to hiding their feelings from parents. I didnt hide anything and I know that those kids who were suicidal near me, their parents knew because they told them.

Do you really think that they didn't do it for the pleasure just because they didn't use condoms lmao? Not everyone enjoys sex with condoms.

Then they can pull out. People dont have kids out of a need for pleasure lmao. Most parents carefully plan that event.

You can't perceive nor really experience death, how would you know if it was boring or not?

How would you know if its peaceful or not? How would you literally know anything about death to make the stupid claim that its better than life? What if its actually worse and the suffering after death is 100 times the suffering in life? How do you know we cant experience death? or perceive it?

Child birth is a serious decision and you're treating it like a casual game.

Never said it isnt serious

The world is overopulated exactly because of people who have the same mindset as you.

No, its because people have more kids than normal. They dont have to be irresponsible for that, they can be responsible too

Are you deaf? How do you get data from children/teenagers who are afraid of being judged due to their suicidal thoughts? Unless you can look into other people's minds?

So no data? just something you made up to prove your made up claim? nice

That's what I thought.

Exactly

No you didn't. You said that recovery is possible for everyone and that child birth is a good thing. Both things are your opinions.

Nope, recovery isnt possible for everyone. I think that inherently child birth is good because you are creating life and the creation of life and prolongation of species is the purpose of being

Now you changed your mind?

always meant it that way

That kind of mindset is selfish and corrupt. Because again, you're willingly putting someone under the risk of abuse, rape, and murder, willingly putting someone into a life where they have to slave away for decades just to be able to afford living, etc.

And if you walk outside you risk getting shot. Should everyone stay home now?

So?

Do wolves kill sheep for clothes?

what does it matter? Top of the food chain does what it wants

I'm not a antinatalist you pro lifer.

Surely sound like one

There are over 8 billion people on this overpopulated earth. What I think is, if anything, that it would be better if child birth gets treated as a more serious decision, rather than just everyone being able to have children even though they aren't meant to be parents.

Sure I agree with that.

That doesn't mean every random bozo should be allowed to force into existence.

okay

If someone is poor, they shouldn't have children.

Since when? I know plenty of kid who grew up poor and they have better morals, better financial understanding and contribute more to society than rich kids

If someone has anger issues, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is abusive, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is racist, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is homophobic, they shouldn't have children.
If someone is old, they shouldn't have children.

Holy shit, you are even more authoritarian than I thought you were. You are gonna police everyones thoughts and actions now to see if they are eligible to have kids?
The only thing here i can agree with is anger issues, abusive and old. The rest isnt really harmful to children and if they socialize they will quickly learn those views are not acceptable.

Because humanity tends to have a god complex so most people want to have mini versions of themselves.

Such a silly way to summarize our whole existence

That's why even though there are so many orphans out there, people rather force a new life into existence.

Yeah you want your genes to be passed not having someone else I think thas obvious. How many have you adopted?

I know that not everyone should be a parent, unlike you.

Never said everybody should be a parent.

I dont even know why you wanted to pivot this conversation into having kids. You have already changed your mind regarding euthanesia. First, you said walk in euthanesia clinics are acceptable but then you changed your mind to saying everyone having suicidal crisis shouldnt be allowed to ctb. So you changed your mind on that. Now we arent that different after all. You can call yourself a pro lifer too. After all, you are restricting someones right to die during a suicidal crisis aha
to quote you,

me : Imagine a walk in euthanesia clinic and literally anyone can walk in and die is that the world you want?

you : So everyone can pump babies out just because of pleasure, but not everyone can walk in a euthanasia clinic? Wow.

You changed your stance on that. Very blatantly

>When I said that I'm pro choice, I meant that everyone who genuinely wants to die since years should have the right for it, which doesn't include the people who wants to die because they have having a crisis or breakdown.

so now you admitted to having the same views as i do after having to argue about bullsiht for 6 hours? wow great use of your time

 

[hibikikyuxx]

yes it was over but you responded again so i responded to you

What? No. We both agreed to the same user that we would stop the conversation but then you continued the conversation.

Well they are suicidal for that period

Only because they are desperate or having a breakdown. Not because they decided after years that life isn't for them.

OH wow because before you advocated for walk in euthanesia clinics which would kill literally everyone who is having a suicidal crisis. So now you changed your position? I am glad I could help you:)

Said the person who said before that everyone should be allowed to have children and that only people who never suffered should have the right to die, but then changed his position. So what is it now? Do you still think that every incompetent bozo should be allowed to have children or not?

Well you can stop being suicidal which is good enough for recovery

If the depression stays then that's not recovery.

Then they would try again but they dont which means they arent suicidal anymore which means they have recovered

No. It means that the people who never attempted suicide again after a attempt, weren't truly suicidal to begin with and only did it because they were desperate. You said it yourself, that the ones who never attempted suicide again were the ones who attempted suicide because of a crisis. Also, not trying suicide again after a attempt doesn't mean that they have recovered if the depression still stays.

According to the data yes recovery is possible for the majority of people.

The data doesn't say that recovery is possible for the majority of people. "9 out of 10 suicidal people who attempted suicide because of a crisis, never attempted suicide again" is not "recovery is possible for the majority of people".

I have provided you with data that supports that claim

No you didn't.

I live in the US. So its the us statistics.

Not everyone lives in the us.

It includes children of all financial standing

Where does it say that?

The majority of children dont live in warzones and warzones arent depictions of regular life of children

The majority of children also don't live in rich households and rich children aren't depictions of regular life of children.

you are dishonestly taking it to the extreme because you cant defend your claims otherwise

Just like you dishonestly treat child birth as a casual game and that forcing someone into existence is a completely normal thing that everyone should be allowed to do.

Also, you didn't answer my question.

So another non answer?

You said that you're from a place where the children didn't hide their suicidal thoughts. That's why I'm wondering where you're from because I've never met or heard of a child who doesn't hide their suicidal thoughts.

Find me data on kids admitting to hiding their feelings from parents

How can you find data of kids hiding their suicidal thoughts from people lmao? If you made a data of suicidal people from any country, it would never be accurate, because the majority of suicidal and depressed people keep their thoughts to themselves out of fear.

I didnt hide anything and I know that those kids who were suicidal near me, their parents knew because they told them

If you're telling me truth, that you knew kids who were suicidal, then their parents sure failed them.

Then they can pull out. People dont have kids out of a need for pleasure lmao.

Just because they can pull out doesn't mean that they do so or want to do so.

Most parents carefully plan that event.

No.

How would you know if its peaceful or not? How would you literally know anything about death to make the stupid claim that its better than life?

If it's anything like life before birth, then I can say that it's peaceful and better.

What if its actually worse and the suffering after death is 100 times the suffering in life?

Common argument of a pro lifer. There is no reason to think that death is worse than life. Once your brain shuts down, you're incapable of experiencing anything.

How do you know we cant experience death? or perceive it?

Unless you can prove that consciousness survives death, there is no reason to asssume that we can experience or perceive death.

Never said it isnt serious

You literally said that everyone should be allowed to have children because "you never know :)".

No, its because people have more kids than normal. They dont have to be irresponsible for that, they can be responsible too

That gives nobody the right to force someone into existence.

So no data? just something you made up to prove your made up claim?

I'm talking out of experience. Literally every single person depressed or suicidal person I've known or seen, kept their suicidal thoughts to themselves irl, except one or two exceptions. Because you know, it's a very personal thing.

Nope, recovery isnt possible for everyone.

Yup.

I think that inherently child birth is good because you are creating life and the creation of life and prolongation of species is the purpose of being

How would you know what the purpose of being is? Creating life literally leads to more suffering, how is that a good thing?

And if you walk outside you risk getting shot. Should everyone stay home now?

Someone can set your house on fire. Why are you staying at home? Same logic.

what does it matter? Top of the food chain does what it wants

"What does it matter"? So you see nothing wrong with people killing animals for clothes, but suicide is where you draw the line?

Surely sound like one

Not really. At least nowhere as much as to how you sound like a pro lifer.

Since when? I know plenty of kid who grew up poor and they have better morals, better financial understanding and contribute more to society than rich kids

If you can't even afford things for yourself then you shouldn't have children. It's unfair and cruel to the child, to be forced to grow up in a poor household.

Holy shit, you are even more authoritarian than I thought you were

Holy shit, you are even more whiny than I thought you were.

You are gonna police everyones thoughts and actions now to see if they are eligible to have kids

I never said that. All I said are my own thoughts and opinions. But if you think that abusers, homophobes, and racists should have children, then sure, keep having that opinion.

The only thing here i can agree with is anger issues, abusive and old. The rest isnt really harmful to children

"The only thing" But you agreed with 3 out of the 5 things I mentioned? So why are you upset? Also, growing up with racist and/or homophobic parents is definitely harmful to the children, Parents are supposed to be the role models of their children.

and if they socialize they will quickly learn those views are not acceptable

Depends on where they are from.

Such a silly way to summarize our whole existence

You seem to have a god complex huh? In case you forgot, humans are animals. Our existence isn't anything special.

Yeah you want your genes to be passed not having someone else I think thas obvious

And now tell me why people want to have their genes to be passed down.

How many have you adopted?

How many have you abandoned?

Never said everybody should be a parent

Now you changed your mind again?

I dont even know why you wanted to pivot this conversation into having kids

You're the one who kept answering after it was already over.

You have already changed your mind regarding euthanesia. First, you said walk in euthanesia clinics are acceptable but then you changed your mind to saying everyone having suicidal crisis shouldnt be allowed to ctb. So you changed your mind on that

No. I said that I'm someone who respects everyone's wish/decision to die. Someone who wants to ctb because of a crisis/breakdown isn't suicidal, just desperate.

Also, you changed your mind often as well. Before, you said that everyone should be allowed to have children because "you never know :)" and acted as if recovery is possible for everyone. Now you say that not everyone should be a parent and that recovery isn't possible for everyone.

Now we arent that different after all.

Oh we definitely are.

You can call yourself a pro lifer too. After all, you are restricting someones right to die during a suicidal crisis aha

I already told you before that there is a difference between genuinely considering suicide, and wanting to die because of a crisis/breakdown.

 

[DreamEnd]

What? No. We both agreed to the same user that we would stop the conversation but then you continued the conversation.

you responded to me yes

Only because they are desperate or having a breakdown. Not because they decided after years that life isn't for them.

So you admit they are suicidal then? because you said before that they arent

Said the person who said before that everyone should be allowed to have children

Quote me on that, i dont recall saying anything like that

and that only people who never suffered should have the right to die,

what? never said anything like it lmao. Quote me again

but then changed his position. So what is it now? Do you still think that every incompetent bozo should be allowed to have children or not?

I never said that. Quote me or link.
This isnt what we were arguing before why does it matter now. Our conversation was about euthanesia not having kids. You kept bringing up childbirth for whatever reason. probably to pivot from a losing argument

If the depression stays then that's not recovery.

you dont know if it stays or not but if they dont attempt its likely they recovered

No. It means that the people who never attempted suicide again after a attempt, weren't truly suicidal to begin with and only did it because they were desperate.

lol what makes someone truly suicidal then? how many years do you have to wait to be truly suicidal? Are you gatekeeping suicidality now

You said it yourself, that the ones who never attempted suicide again were the ones who attempted suicide because of a crisis.

no, not because of a crisis
here is what it says
Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date. This has been well-established in the suicidology literature.
it doesnt say because of a crisis. Again what makes it a crisis vs true suicidality? You can be suicidal for 2 years, attempt suicide and then recover. Will you consider that a crisis as well? is it true suicidality only when you cant recover?

Also, not trying suicide again after a attempt doesn't mean that they have recovered if the depression still stays.

well they lost suicidality so thats a good thing. They can live life not seeking suicide anymore

The data doesn't say that recovery is possible for the majority of people. "9 out of 10 suicidal people who attempted suicide because of a crisis, never attempted suicide again" is not "recovery is possible for the majority of people".

9 out of 10 is a pretty big figure no? and most suicides are results of crises so the recovery is possible for the majority of people who attempt suicide because most suicides are imuslive

Impulsive Versus Planned Suicide Attempts: Different Phenotypes?

Article Abstract Because this piece does not have an abstract, we have provided for your benefit the first 3 sentences of the full text. In clinical settings, one often thinks of suicidal ideation and behavior as following a somewhat linear trajectory. It stands to reason, the clinician often...

www.psychiatrist.com

However, most of the attempted suicides were impulsive (64.0%). Only a minority of attempters reported having a defined plan (13.8%) for the attempt.

So yeah recovery is possible for most because most attempts are impulsive aka crisis attempts. Slam dunk!
Oh and by he way, you havent included any data to support any of your arguments so far

Not everyone lives in the us.

Go look up where you live and you will see a similar pattern but you are pivoting again without including any data. Also that stat included australia

Where does it say that?

Do you know how to read? If i separated by financial standing it would say so. It includes everyone reporting symptoms. Its not financially segregated at all. You literally have no idea what you are discussing

The majority of children also don't live in rich households and rich children aren't depictions of regular life of children.

Thats why the study also studied poor children. Oh wow

Just like you dishonestly treat child birth as a casual game and that forcing someone into existence is a completely normal thing that everyone should be allowed to do.

didnt say everyone allowed to do . Send quote or link.

Also, you didn't answer my question.

You said that you're from a place where the children didn't hide their suicidal thoughts. That's why I'm wondering where you're from because I've never met or heard of a child who doesn't hide their suicidal thoughts.

USA, some do some dont. To generalize is a mistake

How can you find data of kids hiding their suicidal thoughts from people lmao? If you made a data of suicidal people from any country, it would never be accurate, because the majority of suicidal and depressed people keep their thoughts to themselves out of fear.

So why make up a stupid claim if you dont have any evidence for it? lmao

If you're telling me truth, that you knew kids who were suicidal, then their parents sure failed them.

ok so? Doesn't have to be parents fault what if they are bullied because tof their idenitity

Just because they can pull out doesn't mean that they do so or want to do so.

Then they want kids not out of a need for pleasure but they want more out of life. Saying someone wants a kid out of pleasure is such a stupid thing. Having kids isnt a walk in the park

No.

yes

If it's anything like life before birth, then I can say that it's peaceful and better.

how would you know? Do you remember what you experienced when you were 2? how would you know what death is like?

Common argument of a pro lifer. There is no reason to think that death is worse than life. Once your brain shuts down, you're incapable of experiencing anything.

Typical argument of an atheist. There is no reason to think that you arent more than just a brain.

Unless you can prove that consciousness survives death, there is no reason to asssume that we can experience or perceive death.

Unless you can prove that we are only our brains and body there is no reason to assume that we cant experience or perceive death

You literally said that everyone should be allowed to have children because "you never know :)".

I said that in the context of parenting. Yeah you never know how good of a parent you will be unless you actually have kids lmao thats not controversial.also you never know if a child is going to have a good life or not. Didnt say everyone should. go ahead and quote me or link

That gives nobody the right to force someone into existence.

idk how that is relevant to what I said but go on

I'm talking out of experience. Literally every single person depressed or suicidal person I've known or seen, kept their suicidal thoughts to themselves irl, except one or two exceptions. Because you know, it's a very personal thing.

Nice anecdote, I have one too. Are we using anecdotes now to discuss things?

Yup.

How would you know what the purpose of being is? Creating life literally leads to more suffering, how is that a good thing?

No, you can create someone who cures cancer. Bam less suffering in the world for many people!

Someone can set your house on fire. Why are you staying at home? Same logic.

Thanks for proving my point. Yet you still are in the house? Why not die to not put yourself under the risk of a house fire?

"What does it matter"? So you see nothing wrong with people killing animals for clothes, but suicide is where you draw the line?

People arent animals. We are advanced species

Not really. At least nowhere as much as to how you sound like a pro lifer.

you sure sound like one now

If you can't even afford things for yourself then you shouldn't have children. It's unfair and cruel to the child, to be forced to grow up in a poor household.

child learns how to value things. Very good thing for the child

Holy shit, you are even more whiny than I thought you were.

back at ya

I never said that. All I said are my own thoughts and opinions. But if you think that abusers, homophobes, and racists should have children, then sure, keep having that opinion.

ok

"The only thing" But you agreed with 3 out of the 5 things I mentioned? So why are you upset? Also, growing up with racist and/or homophobic parents is definitely harmful to the children, Parents are supposed to be the role models of their children.

whatever

Depends on where they are from.

usually thats the case

You seem to have a god complex huh? In case you forgot, humans are animals. Our existence isn't anything special.

humans are way more advanced than animals in case you didnt know

And now tell me why people want to have their genes to be passed down.

to continue the bloodline

How many have you abandoned?

i am not pro adoption, you are

Now you changed your mind again?

quote me where i said everyone should be allowed to have kids

You're the one who kept answering after it was already over.

you kept responding

No. I said that I'm someone who respects everyone's wish/decision to die. Someone who wants to ctb because of a crisis/breakdown isn't suicidal, just desperate.

Again you changed your mind, thanks for doing that

Also, you changed your mind often as well. Before, you said that everyone should be allowed to have children because "you never know :)"

That wasnt meant to be in regards to everyone having kids it meant to say that you never know how good of a paren you will be unless you have kids but I dont expect you to be good faith in this conversation. Again quote me on that or link it. You never know because children's life's aren't uniforms

and acted as if recovery is possible for everyone.

quote me where i said that

Now you say that not everyone should be a parent and that recovery isn't possible for everyone.

quote me

Oh we definitely are.

not really

I already told you before that there is a difference between genuinely considering suicide, and wanting to die because of a crisis/breakdown

Nope honey you only told it to me very recently. Before you went all mad about having walk in euthanesia clinics

Our discussion started with regards to euthanesia clinics and accesibility of euthanesia. You were very stubborn at first but later on admitted that actually my view is correct because you changed your view to confirm with mine. How cute. You didnt have to argue for 6 hours to do that you could have just admitted that in the beginning of the conversation.

me : Imagine a walk in euthanesia clinic and literally anyone can walk in and die is that the world you want?

you : So everyone can pump babies out just because of pleasure, but not everyone can walk in a euthanasia clinic? Wow.

You changed your stance on that. Very blatantly
To this:

>When I said that I'm pro choice, I meant that everyone who genuinely wants to die since years should have the right for it, which doesn't include the people who wants to die because they have having a crisis or breakdown.

I am glad you agree with my position. Now I am going to sleep. Next time you start arguments with people actually think your positions through, it may help in the future

And just so you know. A crisis can last years it would still be a crisis. So unless you are going to describe what you mean by true suicidality then you are actively gatekeeping suicide from a lot of people, which is what you were arguing against in the first place lmao.

 

[R_N]

 

[Life_and_Death]

What? No. We both agreed to the same user that we would stop the conversation but then you continued the conversation.

you dont have the capability to walk away either? youd rather just keep throwing back and forth "you did it"
dudes its an ignore button and like @mmikkee1 already pointed out, its not good on their mental health.
you seriously both need to find the ignore button and mutually walk away, or one of you needs to be the adult and just drop it, dont respond to a thing or else this isnt ever gonna stop.

but hey, its your guys' mental health on the line, not mine. enjoy the argument if you want but its not going to go anywhere lol

 

[hibikikyuxx]

you responded to me yes

We both agreed to end our conversation but then you continued it.

So you admit they are suicidal then? because you said before that they arent

There is a difference between someone wanting to die because they decided that life is genuinely not for them, and someone wanting to die because they are having a crisis.

Quote me on that, i dont recall saying anything like that

You said before "you never know :)" when I said that child birth is wrong and that not everyone should be allowed to have a child, so you're basically saying that child birth is always okay because there isn't a 100% chance that the life of the child will be bad and that it doesn't matter if the parents aren't the kind of people who are meant to be parents.

what? never said anything like it

You did.

Me: I've known many suicidal people who never had anything bad happejning to them, but they still want to die. Life isn't for everyone. For many suicidal people, just being alive alone is terrible enough.

You: Then these people should get euthanasia

Me: So people who never suffered in their lives should get euthanasia but people who suffered and decided after many years that they want to die, shouldn't get euthanasia?

I never said that. Quote me or link.

You did.

Me: Being able to have a child doesn't justify an incompetent person from forcing someeone into existence without thinking about it first to see if they are really meant to be a parent.

You: Sometimes you can't know until you try :)

This isnt what we were arguing before why does it matter now

Because you decided to continue or conversation.

Our conversation was about euthanesia not having kids

I don't remember who started bringing up child birth but the point still stands.

You kept bringing up childbirth for whatever reason

Ah right. I brought up childbirth because that is glorified in our brainwashed society death prison where everyone slaves away for most of their life just to be able to afford the bare minimum. That's why childbirdh is glorified and romanticized. It means more slaves for the government to use. That's why euthanasia isn't legalized, because it would allow their slaves from running away.

you dont know if it stays or not

Same goes to you. But I know that for the most people, depression truly never goes away. The suicidal tendencies may go, but the lack of a desire to live, would still be there.

but if they dont attempt its likely they recovered

It would mean that they found a way cope, not that they have recovered.

lol what makes someone truly suicidal then? how many years do you have to wait to be truly suicidal? Are you gatekeeping suicidality now

There is a difference between thinking about it rationally and deciding to ctb, and having a mental breakdown and wanting to die. The first example is a suicidal person. The second example is a person who needs help.

no, not because of a crisis
here is what it says
Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date. This has been well-established in the suicidology literature.
it doesnt say because of a crisis.

Before, you also said: "This relatively good long-term survival rate is consistent with the observation that suicidal crises are often short-lives, even if there may be underlying, more chronic risk factors present that give rise to these crises".

Again what makes it a crisis vs true suicidality?

Someone who decides after years to ctb, is suicidal, as they have thought about it for a while. Someone who is having a mental breakdown and decides to ctb, is crying out for help.

You can be suicidal for 2 years, attempt suicide and then recover

True.

Will you consider that a crisis as well? is it true suicidality only when you cant recover?

No being suicidal for 2 years is not a crisis, that's actual suicidality.

well they lost suicidality so thats a good thing. They can live life not seeking suicide anymore

If they still have no desire to life, because of their depression, then it's more like a neutral thing.

9 out of 10 is a pretty big figure no? and most suicides are results of crises so the recovery is possible for the majority of people who attempt suicide because most suicides are imuslive

Well. Thankfully me and many people on this forum aren't thinking about it in a impulsive way.

Impulsive Versus Planned Suicide Attempts: Different Phenotypes?

Article Abstract Because this piece does not have an abstract, we have provided for your benefit the first 3 sentences of the full text. In clinical settings, one often thinks of suicidal ideation and behavior as following a somewhat linear trajectory. It stands to reason, the clinician often...

www.psychiatrist.com

However, most of the attempted suicides were impulsive (64.0%). Only a minority of attempters reported having a defined plan (13.8%) for the attempt.

Fair.

So yeah recovery is possible for most because most attempts are impulsive aka crisis attempts. Slam dunk!

I guess I should have said that recovery is possible for most people who attempted because they were crisis attempts and not planned-out attempts of people who have thought about it since years.

Oh and by he way, you havent included any data to support any of your arguments so far

I have, for all the animal species that have died out because of humanity. Also, I don't consider the data of "9 out of 10 people who attempted suicide never attempt suicide again" as valid, because as it said, those were crisis attempts, and not attempts of suicidal people who have planned it out and thought about it.

Go look up where you live and you will see a similar pattern

Like I said, depends on where you're from.

Do you know how to read?

Do you? I was asking where it says that it includes the children who live in poverty, etc.

It includes everyone reporting symptoms. Its not financially segregated at all.

Where does it says that it includes children from every different financial household?

didnt say everyone allowed to do . Send quote or link.

Me: Being able to have a child doesn't justify an incompetent person from forcing someeone into existence without thinking about it first to see if they are really meant to be a parent

You: Sometimes you can't know until you try :)

USA, some do some dont. To generalize is a mistake

Same goes to you.

So why make up a stupid claim if you dont have any evidence for it?

Because you're the one who brought up a stupid claim without having any evidence for it.

ok so? Doesn't have to be parents fault what if they are bullied because of their identity

You said that you knew suicidal kids, so you should know, but I'm not gonna ask you for their reasons.

Then they want kids not out of a need for pleasure but they want more out of life.

Which is selfish.

Saying someone wants a kid out of pleasure is such a stupid thing.

Just like saying that child birth is a good thing and that everyone should be allowed to have children, is a stupid thing.

Having kids isnt a walk in the park

It's literally the parents who bring the child to existence against their will because they decided to do so. If someone can't handle children or doesn't care for them, then they shouldn't be parents. Caring for the child after bringing it into existence is the bare minimum.

yes

No.

Do you remember what you experienced when you were 2?

I do.

how would you know what death is like?

Like I said, if it's anything like life before birth, then I don't care if I 100% know what death is like, I just know that it's more peaceful than life is.

Typical argument of an atheist. There is no reason to think that you arent more than just a brain.

Remove a person's brain and then ask them how they are doing.

Unless you can prove that we are only our brains and body there is no reason to assume that we cant experience or perceive death

Unless you can prove that we are more than our brains and body, there is no reason to assume that we can experience or perceive death. Remove a person's brain and they wouldn't be able to think, move, talk. They would be dead.

I said that in the context of parenting. Yeah you never know how good of a parent you will be unless you actually have kids lmao thats not controversial

My point is that not everyone should have the right to have children, just because they want to have children.

also you never know if a child is going to have a good life or not.

Which is why I said that bringing someone into existence puts them under the risks of all kinds of terrible things.

Nice anecdote, I have one too. Are we using anecdotes now to discuss things?

Sure.

No, you can create someone who cures cancer

The chance of that is pretty much impossible.

Thanks for proving my point. Yet you still are in the house? Why not die to not put yourself under the risk of a house fire?

My point is that you're always under risk no matter what.

People arent animals. We are advanced species

Nope. People aka humans are literally animals. Animals have emotions just like and I do, like things just like you and I do, and act different depending from person to person, just like you and I do. Humans share roughly 90 percent of their DNA with mice, dogs, cattle, and elephants, and the DNA of human beings and chimpanzees is 98 to 99% percent identical. Humans only appear as more special to you because our cerebral cortex is larger than in any other animal and responsible for higher thought process such as reasoning, abstract thinking, and decision thinking.

People are animals.

you sure sound like one now

Never.

child learns how to value things. Very good thing for the child

Suffering should never be a child's upbringing and teacher.

back at ya

You're the one who lied about ending our conversation though.

humans are way more advanced than animals in case you didnt know

Humans are literally animals in case you didn't know, as I mentioned above.

to continue the bloodline

Knew it.

i am not pro adoption, you are

You are against adopting orphans?

quote me where i said everyone should be allowed to have kids

I mentioned it above.

you kept responding

No you did lol. We both agreed to the other user that we would end the conversation but then you continued the conversation.

Again you changed your mind, thanks for doing that

No I didn't.

That wasnt meant to be in regards to everyone having kids it meant to say that you never know how good of a paren you will be unless you have kids but I dont expect you to be good faith in this conversation. Again quote me on that or link it. You never know because children's life's aren't uniforms

That's what I mean though. You treat childbirth as this...game. "Hey, you never know, I might be a good parent or bad parent, I lack the ability to judge myself, but anyways lets bring a child into this world"

quote me where i said that

If you thought otherwise then youldn't be against restricting everyone's wish/desire to desire. Literally every time I brought up how euthanasia should be legalized because nobody asked to be born, you were like "No, I'm against that, recovery this, recovery that", ignoring that not everyone can recover and not everyone wants to recover.

not really

Yes really.

Nope honey you only told it to me very recently. Before you went all mad about having walk in euthanesia clinics

Yes, because you openly said that there is nothing wrong with forcing others into existence, but that the right to die should be restricted.

Our discussion started with regards to euthanesia clinics and accesibility of euthanesia.

Yeah.

You were very stubborn at first but later on admitted that actually my view is correct because you changed your view to confirm with mine

I never changed my view. I'm and always will be pro-choice lol. When our conversation started, I told you that I think that I respect everyone's genuine wish/decision to die, but that I would never tell someone to die, because that's someone who is pro death would do.

You on the other hand were like "Child birth? Beautiful thing, there is nothing wrong with forcing someone into existence, not everyone should have the right to die, and you should always force recovery down the throats of suicidal people".

you could have just admitted that in the beginning of the conversation

I didn't admit anything, did you?

You changed your stance on that

No I didn't.

I am glad you agree with my position

I'm not.

Now I am going to sleep.

Gn.

Next time you start arguments with people actually think your positions through, it may help in the future

Same goes back to you.

And just so you know. A crisis can last years it would still be a crisis

Ok.

So unless you are going to describe what you mean by true suicidality

What I mean by it is thinking it through and then deciding to ctb. Not deciding to ctb because you're having a mental breakdown.

you dont have the capability to walk away either? youd rather just keep throwing back and forth "you did it"
dudes its an ignore button and like @mmikkee1 already pointed out, its not good on their mental health.
you seriously both need to find the ignore button and mutually walk away, or one of you needs to be the adult and just drop it, dont respond to a thing or else this isnt ever gonna stop.

but hey, its your guys' mental health on the line, not mine. enjoy the argument if you want but its not going to go anywhere lol

Yeah I'm done here. I thought this would be over when me and mmikkee1 agreed to end the conversation so I was confused when they decided to continue it:

DeaDBatterY: GET A FUCKING ROOM OR PM EACHOTHER, YOU'RE HIJACKING THE THREAD AND KEEPING IT AT THE TOP OF THE SUICIDE BOARD

mmikkee1: Ok @DeaDBatterY I'll stop responding thank you sir!

Me: @DeaDBatterY You're right, sorry.

mmikkee1: *continues conversation*

 

[Life_and_Death]

so I was confused when they decided to continue it:

if i had to take a guess its called stress.
and again, you had the ability to walk away as well, but instead you kept responding with "you did it! you did it!" so i find it hilarious that you put the blame on them for continuing when you didnt even try to stop the conversation, you just kept responding, but i read several times where they just wanted to be done with it.

 

[hibikikyuxx]

you had the ability to walk away as well, but instead you kept responding with "you did it! you did it!" so i find it hilarious that you put the blame on them for continuing when you didnt even try to stop the conversation, you just kept responding, but i read several times where they just wanted to be done with it.

I did walk away and try to stop the conversation from continuing though. We came to a agreement to stop the conversation after another user intervened, but then they continued the conversation and blamed me for replying, even though they were the one continue the conversation. I told them numerous of times that I don't want to talk to them, asking them why they keep replying after saying that they would stop replying, and that if they want to continue the conversation, they should pm me instead. Anyway all of this is so pointless, I shouldn't have bothered.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

of choice !!

 

[ali.hamza]

I really do find it absurd how we exist in such an anti-death, pro-suffering society even know death is all that's inevitable. It's like so many humans forget that they are destined for nothing but to decay, experience loss and inevitably die where all they knew will be erased and forgotten about. To me it's very tragic how society is this way as the fact that many humans are so anti-death and wish to prolong meaningless and unnecessary suffering no matter what just harms others.

In my case I see suicide as rational as it's the way to free myself from the burden of existence, preventing all future suffering as a result. No matter what only non-existence could ever be desirable to me, I'd always prefer to be eternally unaware than to suffer in this futile existence that I never wished for in the first place. I only see non-existence as ideal as it's the permanent absence of all torment and harm, for me existence itself is the problem as it's the source of all suffering.

It doesn't make sense how so many humans are so anti-suicide and anti-death when they are all just going to die anyway as well and there is no escaping that, all humans are just slowly dying and waiting around to die in this existence that will inevitably disappear into nothingness. And it's such extreme cruelty how people cannot choose when that will be, it will always be unaceptable how people cannot take control over their inevitable fate in a peaceful, guaranteed way.

In fact I see suicide as something relieving and positive as it's the way to escape from suffering in an existence that will just decay and die anyway. I see nothing appealing about deteriorating from age especially as there is no limit as to how much one can suffer and I'd prefer to avoid all suffering, I wish death is accepted rather than there being so much denial towards it.

In Switzerland suicide is legal from 1942.