is this forum against anti-natalism?

[Oblivion]

I just got banned from the chat for expressing my anti natalist views, which admin did this? how is this allowed?

 

[Dubito]

What did you say?

 

[Oblivion]

What did you say?

Arguments in favor not having babies and how horrible having babies is and bringing them into this fucked up world, must be a pro lifer admin
It's weird that all of the people in the chat are pro breeding, everyone was agitated by the thought of anti natalism and were furious about the idea itself. this was very very weird for a suicide forum chat

 

[Dubito]

Do we have guidelines what is allowed to say or not?

 

[Sulyya]

Might be a chat-specific rule. Threads or profile posts for that argument are probably allowed.

 

[_smile_]

I think you are confused. We are pro-CHOICE. Not pro-life. If someone decides to have a baby, that is their choice. And if that baby grows up and decides they don't want to live, then again, that is their choice.

You are very disrespectful in your discussions regarding these topics and I think that is where the frustration arises amongst members. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but show some basic common courtesy when you're speaking to others.

 

[Oblivion]

I think you are confused. We are pro-CHOICE. Not pro-life. If someone decides to have a baby, that is their choice. And if that baby grows up and decides they don't want to live, then again, that is their choice.

You are very disrespectful in your discussions regarding these topics and I think that is where the frustration arises amongst members. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but show some basic common courtesy when you're speaking to others.

I did not verbally attack anyone in person, the idea itself provoked everyone, i dare you to provide a sentence where i attacked someone personally

 

[Fwompje]

Might wanna check out reddit r/antinatalism. Right now it's tricky to be open about those believes because sasu is under a lot of scrutiny. They don't want the forum to seem like a deathcult. Sorry you got banned from chat but there are ways to have a friendly discussion.

 

[ExistHarm]

I think you are confused. We are pro-CHOICE. Not pro-life. If someone decides to have a baby, that is their choice.

they are making the choice for a new person. they are imposing existence on a brand new person, who might feel the need to end their life and in our current world this is a difficult task. when a choice impacts someone else so deeply, it should not be treated the same as the choice to CTB, it should be treated as a crime, really.

 

[Oblivion]

they are making the choice for a new person. they are imposing existence on a brand new person, who might feel the need to end their life and in our current world this is a difficult task. when a choice impacts someone else so deeply, it should not be treated the same as the choice to CTB, it should be treated as a crime, really.

I agree, but now i understand the need not to show this for the normies cause as fwompje said, the normies are hell bent on destroying this forum and showing us as a death cult.

 

[ExistHarm]

I agree, but now i understand the need not to show this for the normies cause as fwompje said, the normies are hell bent on destroying this forum and showing us as a death cult.

yes. what a sick and twisted world where us who are already here and simply want to leave are considered a death cult while those who bring new beings into existence, imposing both life and death upon them, are celebrated. so many things in existence are just so backwards

 

[FuneralCry]

There are quite a few pro lifers on this site so I'm not even surprised. Antinatalism makes so much sense in such a hellish world. It's disgusting and beyond selfish to bring new life here just to create more unnecessary suffering, it's undeniable that the true problem lies in life itself and the fact that people are against antinatalism just shows how delusional people are. Existence is a cruel burden, it's not a "gift", and there is just no need to bring life here in the first place anyway, existence is completely unnecessary, if one never exists then they cannot be harmed in any way.

 

[Octavia]

I feel like bringing people to this world is okay as long as the parents are truly ready to care after children, and if people have a peaceful option to unalive themselves whenever it pleases them (after a certain delay of course, humans often make rash decisions). Being born is indeed not a choice and may birth some individuals into a world of pain, but others are able to enjoy their existence.

 

[Darkover]

no one should be allowed to bring someone alive to this crappy universe

 

[SexyIncél]

I don't know anything about the chat. But many people here on the suicide subform are anti-natalist

I'm not, but such philosophers provide me ideas to nuance my own views. Societies are responsible for not bringing babies into hell-on-earth. (Abuse, etc)

 

[Dolphin55]

It seems wrong to me to insist that you should be allowed the right to die, but then say that other people shouldn't have the right to have children. I understand many people here have suffered a lot and don't want more people to be brought here to suffer as well, but I think people forget that our experience of life is the exception and not the rule. Most people lead relatively happy lives and do not want to kill themselves. They enjoy living, and want to have children so those children can enjoy it too. We have no right to suggest they shouldn't do that. Equally, they shouldn't have the right to tell us we can't end our lives. These are both pro-choice stances.

 

[OutOfTheVoid]

idk the context behind your situation, but im antinatalist myself. i kinda assumed antinatalism was more popular here, but i guess its more controversial than i thought.

im of the view that bringing new life into this world is inherently unethical because a) non-being cannot consent to being, thus bringing life into being is nonconsensual; b) suffering is inherent to existence and no possibility of pleasure justifies any degree of suffering--to bring new life into existence is to inflict suffering, and therefore is to do harm.

I think you are confused. We are pro-CHOICE. Not pro-life. If someone decides to have a baby, that is their choice

imo bringing new life into existence is not "pro-choice", it is imposing one's own choice onto this new life. no one chooses to be born, our parents choose that for us. it is unconsensual, and therefore goes against free choice. imo, the truly "pro-choice" position is to not impose choices onto any other being or potential being, including the choice to create a being. pro-choice and antinatalism go hand-in-hand

 

[ExistHarm]

It seems wrong to me to insist that you should be allowed the right to die, but then say that other people shouldn't have the right to have children. I understand many people here have suffered a lot and don't want more people to be brought here to suffer as well, but I think people forget that our experience of life is the exception and not the rule. Most people lead relatively happy lives and do not want to kill themselves. They enjoy living, and want to have children so those children can enjoy it too. We have no right to suggest they shouldn't do that. Equally, they shouldn't have the right to tell us we can't end our lives. These are both pro-choice stances.

Pollyanna principle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think most people are extremely delusional in their enjoyment of life. or, at least, they choose to ignore that massive amount of pain and suffering that it takes for anybody to exist at all, and that occurs on a daily basis. pro-choice is the right to do what i choose with my own body; it does not allow me to choose what to do with another person's body. reproduction is creating an entirely new life, full of all the toils of existence, and inevitably, death. the fact that someone enjoys existence is no excuse to impose it onto another. reproduction and euthanasia should both be negative rights; if you choose to reproduce, you lose the right to voluntary euthanasia, and have to pay more taxes, for example.

 

[SamTam33]

Pollyanna principle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think most people are extremely delusional in their enjoyment of life. or, at least, they choose to ignore that massive amount of pain and suffering that it takes for anybody to exist at all, and that occurs on a daily basis. pro-choice is the right to do what i choose with my own body; it does not allow me to choose what to do with another person's body. reproduction is creating an entirely new life, full of all the toils of existence, and inevitably, death. the fact that someone enjoys existence is no excuse to impose it onto another. reproduction and euthanasia should both be negative rights; if you choose to reproduce, you lose the right to voluntary euthanasia, and have to pay more taxes, for example.

Agreed. Just because most people don't want to kill themselves doesn't mean those people are enjoying life.

Ask any random person what's on their mind and what they're struggling with and watch all the problems that spew forth from their mouths.

Then ask them if they want to kill themselves...

Just because you don't want to die doesn't mean you're happy.

 

[melancholyc418]

If ur a shitty parent then you shouldn't have kids. Bringing a kid into this scary world is a beautiful thing if you dedicate your time to protecting and nurturing them

 

[LastFlowers]

Arguments in favor not having babies and how horrible having babies is and bringing them into this fucked up world, must be a pro lifer admin
It's weird that all of the people in the chat are pro breeding, everyone was agitated by the thought of anti natalism and were furious about the idea itself. this was very very weird for a suicide forum chat

I think I've said this before, but chat is often a different crowd from the main forum.
Not always..but most of the time.
Some people from the main forum do not get on well in there and I think someone here once referred to the chat as full of "tiktoker" types (interpret that as you may).

Still…considering some of the stuff I've seen in there, you being banned for antinatalist viewpoints is absurd, ridiculous, and all the more so considering the site we are on..and what the philosophy actually entails.
Anyone who would ban you for that reason I would think would have some personal bone to pick with you, is a parent, etc…or they completely reject critical thought while jumping to attack anything that sounds remotely controversial or "scary".

Antinatalism is not something that should be censored anywhere.

If ur a shitty parent then you shouldn't have kids. Bringing a kid into this scary world is a beautiful thing if you dedicate your time to protecting and nurturing them

I don't think it's a beautiful thing either way.
You can put in the time and effort and still screw the kid over via other aspects of the inherently selfish gamble.

 

[ExistHarm]

Bringing a kid into this scary world is a beautiful thing

does not compute.jpg

 

[LastFlowers]

Might be a chat-specific rule. Threads or profile posts for that argument are probably allowed.

I've talked about AN in the chat before (though tbh I avoid chat most of the time) and I've seen others do the same with little to no interference..so I am concerned about this possibly fresh precedent being set with what happened to OP.

Very odd place to draw the line.

(I haven't been on here for awhile again due to being so overwhelmed, so idk if anything has changed.)

 

[Venus13]

I think you are confused. We are pro-CHOICE. Not pro-life. If someone decides to have a baby, that is their choice. And if that baby grows up and decides they don't want to live, then again, that is their choice.

You are very disrespectful in your discussions regarding these topics and I think that is where the frustration arises amongst members. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but show some basic common courtesy when you're speaking to others.

I don't think we have a collective opinion on antinatalism. The forum has guidelines on suicide.

It's a choice but yea, plenty of people here don't respect that choice. Sharing an opinion leaves it open to critique. I don't know how disrespectful the chat got though.

It's a dick move to tear into already parents but to lay out valid opinions on antinatalism should be allowed here.

 

[Interloper]

You were actively trying to convince someone not to have a child, not that I disagree with that but that's more than just sharing your views imo.

 

[_smile_]

I don't think we have a collective opinion on antinatalism. The forum has guidelines on suicide.

It's a choice but yea, plenty of people here don't respect that choice. Sharing an opinion leaves it open to critique. I don't know how disrespectful the chat got though.

It's a dick move to tear into already parents but to lay out valid opinions on antinatalism should be allowed here.

It 100% is allowed. That is not the issue at all. The issue is how they went about construing their views/opinions.

 

[LastFlowers]

It seems wrong to me to insist that you should be allowed the right to die, but then say that other people shouldn't have the right to have children. I understand many people here have suffered a lot and don't want more people to be brought here to suffer as well, but I think people forget that our experience of life is the exception and not the rule. Most people lead relatively happy lives and do not want to kill themselves. They enjoy living, and want to have children so those children can enjoy it too. We have no right to suggest they shouldn't do that. Equally, they shouldn't have the right to tell us we can't end our lives. These are both pro-choice stances.

It "seems" wrong to you, but it isn't.

What on earth does the right to die on one's own terms have to do with making the decision to bring another life into being?
By this I mean: How does respecting the former necessitate respecting the latter?

What evidence do you have that we are the exception rather than just the peak of inevitable suffering (for all)?

Who is "most people" to you?
Because from where I'm standing, "most people" will whine and complain day in and day out, even if they're more privileged than the vast majority.
Being afraid to die is not the same as being happy about living.
And once you are alive, you're automatically biased towards remaining so..even if it's only by way of a human instinct you had no say in and logically can reason isn't worthy in keeping you here.

Also you must be completely naive or disingenuous if you think the reason people bring children into this world is simply so said children can "enjoy living" as their parents did.
I am sorry but give me a break.
Even those who do desire that, always among other things, cannot ensure it..and do not care if attempting to harms their child (or someone else) in the process.
(Not to mention the amount of people who have kids out of desperation, thinking it will be some bandaid to a relationship.)
Even "good" parents devoted to securing their child's happiness will end up sacrificing or negatively affecting outsiders/people who commit the crime of not being said parents' child.
People affect people, more people affect more people.
And it ain't pretty unless you choose to narrow your perspective to exclude the human beings who bear the brunt of the consequences.

We have every right to merely suggest that people shouldn't procreate.
(That's the very least of what we should be permitted to do.)
It leads to suffering- some way, somehow, to someone..always.
There isn't a single reason to do it that is not selfish (ultimately always about what the prospective parent wants, since there is no child yet to give an opinion) and with the context and significance of such a decision, that selfishness becomes astronomical.


Equally?
Ending our lives and giving up on preventing new ones are not two ideas on equal footing who need to shake hands in order to validate one another.

If someone reaches a point of suffering where suicide becomes the only or best option then that person should realize that risking the same scenario for yet another human being is out of the fucking question.
Even when that risk is being taken by others who are not suicidal.

We are the example that nobody else wants to learn from, unfortunately.
People don't want to take care of or acknowledge who is already here..they just opt for perpetual replacements that suit their own fancy, mirror their own genetics or echo their own dreams.

 

[Unending]

Might wanna check out reddit r/antinatalism. Right now it's tricky to be open about those believes because sasu is under a lot of scrutiny. They don't want the forum to seem like a deathcult. Sorry you got banned from chat but there are ways to have a friendly discussion.

r/trueantinatalism is my sub of choice. Last time I was on r/antinatalism, there was just a lot of angry venting posts and not much real philosophical discussion. I guess it's a matter of preference though.
But yeah, opinions definitely vary. I know that there are quite a number of antinatalists on this forum but also just as many people who aren't.

 

[LastFlowers]

You were actively trying to convince someone not to have a child, not that I disagree with that but that's more than just sharing your views imo.

Well damn, I wish someone had tried that with my parents.

 

[kazewoatsumete]

Bro you harassed a woman in distress who recently found out she was pregnant, insisting she get an abortion, then called the chat "LARPers" that aren't really suicidal when we told you to cut out. That's why you were chatbanned. You were antagonistic. You come in and call people names and chant "all life must end" and throw slurs around like some sort of cartoon genocidal supervillain. Stop victimizing yourself.