Discussion Is the "suicide is selfish" narrative the majority in society or not?

[ericwilkinson]

The answer of course is it depends entirely on what culture you inhabit. Western culture (ironically as it claims to be and generally is progressive on many fronts), condemns suicide as "weak" and "selfish" mainly due to remnants of religious doctrine but also as well capitalism which explains why the stance on suicide in the middle ages was not as harsh as it is today.

In Asian cultures, particularly, Japan, South Korea, and China, suicide can be deemed honorable.

However it seems that Western propaganda has spread around the world and made suicide be deemed as immoral. Would you say anecdotally from experiencing the funeral of someone who suicided as well as talking to people about general opinions, do they think its selfish or not?

 

[deathenvoy]

which explains why the stance on suicide in the middle ages was not as harsh as it is today.

In middle ages you've got excommunicated for suicide attempt, and if successful it was straight ticket to hell not to mention you cannot be buried in consacrated ground.

 

[AnnaJaspers]

I know of someone who committed suicide circa 1960, in a very conservative Christian community in Ohio. He was a physician who left behind a wife and children.
According to my friend who knew the family, no one, at least openly, said it was selfish. It really takes a special kind of non-empathetic person to make that kind of judgement on someone who was obviously in so much incredible pain. Most of us cling to life, and most far beyond what is reasonable, so I never understood the selfishness argument, even in cases where minor children are involved.

 

[TAW122]

I think even in the East Asian countries, suicide is still looked down somehow, but just not openly talked about. If I recall, while it might not be solely religion at work there, the government, capitalism, and of course, social pressures as a collective push on the notion that being alive and working is good, but suicide is not productive and frowned upon. It is, to an extent, different from the way Western society views suicide, but generally still looked down on or seen as 'weak'.

 

[cryptic_cynic]

As you alluded to, religion and capitalism benefit from the masses being made to fetishize suffering and hold "hard work" as the highest value. Without the masses obediently churning away as cogs in the machine, the psychopaths who run the world wouldn't have the power they so desperately crave.
Believing that those who don't wish to participate in the system are lazy and selfish is a byproduct of this conditioning.

 

[Black_Knight]

Can't tell if it's the majority, a vocal minority, or something that people say offhand without really thinking about it or believing it. The majority of people who I have personally met do not seem to believe this. I see it more often on the internet or as a gut reaction to loved ones who left.

It does seem to have some monolithic weight in spite what I perceive to be few people supporting it.

 

[ericwilkinson]

Can't tell if it's the majority, a vocal minority, or something that people say offhand without really thinking about it or believing it. The majority of people who I have personally met do not seem to believe this. I see it more often on the internet or as a gut reaction to loved ones who left.

It does seem to have some monolithic weight in spite what I perceive to be few people supporting it.

You've spoken to people about suicide. What do they think?

I believe that generally, growing up in a "tough love", religious household, or developing country influences attitudes towards suicide

 

[cryptic_cynic]

You've spoken to people about suicide. What do they think?

I believe that generally, growing up in a "tough love", religious household, or developing country influences attitudes towards suicide

Yeah, one side of my family is from the Philippines, and they have absolutely no sympathy for the idea of depression, anxiety, suicide, etc.

 

[ericwilkinson]

Yeah, one side of my family is from the Philippines, and they have absolutely no sympathy for the idea of depression, anxiety, suicide, etc.

In what sense? They believe its a "first world problem"/attention seeking?

Funny I was in A&E for suicidal thoughts and I'm inclined to believe that the filipino nurse taking care of me probably thought I was weak/wasting everyones time. She tried to be polite and didn't say anything (cause obviously they can get fired) but she seemed very annoyed when I tried to talk to her.

 

[cryptic_cynic]

In what sense? They believe its a "first world problem"/attention seeking?

Pretty much, they just don't believe in it. It doesn't exist in their understanding of the world. To them, it's to be expected that life is comprised of suffering, you are just supposed to turn to religion and deal with it.

 

[not_a_robot]

In middle ages you've got excommunicated for suicide attempt, and if successful it was straight ticket to hell not to mention you cannot be buried in consacrated ground.

Well then, in that case, I'm really glad hell is imaginary!

 

[HGL91]

In what sense? They believe its a "first world problem"/attention seeking?

Funny I was in A&E for suicidal thoughts and I'm inclined to believe that the filipino nurse taking care of me probably thought I was weak/wasting everyones time. She tried to be polite and didn't say anything (cause obviously they can get fired) but she seemed very annoyed when I tried to talk to her.

While generalizing is a bad thing, I can say from experience as a CNA in nursing homes, from my cousin who also did this job, and my aunt and mother who are retired nurses, that Filipino nurses tend to be all work and no friendly demeanor. Plus, I'm a bit biased because all the LVNs that bullied me were Filipino by giving me all the hardest patients and blaming me for things that last shift did. -.-

Sorry you had that experience as a patient, but that's really how many of them are to basically everyone lol Some of them are annoyed because they were doctors in their own country and come here and don't qualify as doctors.

 

[Santiago]

Anyone with common sense can acknowledge it is selfish to kill yourself when there are people who care about you. That has nothing to do with societal standards. It's a simple observation when looking at people who have lost people close to them. They are hurt.

The question of whether or not you should then is a completely different question. You are mixing up two questions.

1. Is it selfish? 100% yes (of course only in the case where people actually care about you. If you are all alone you won't have to consider other people their feelings)
2. Does that imply that it is immoral? That's the real question and one that each person has to answer for themselves.

Also a little side note as I am kinda curious now. You mentioned suicide is deemed honorable in Asian cultures. I know nothing of those cultures, but are you implying that when a mother loses her son to suicide she'll go 'wow that was a really honourable thing to do' and then just continue with her life like nothing happened?

For some reason I highly doubt that and logic tells me she will feel devastated aswell (perhaps while having respect for his decision).

 

[HGL91]

Anyone with common sense can acknowledge it is selfish to kill yourself when there are people who care about you. That has nothing to do with societal standards. It's a simple observation when looking at people who have lost people close to them. They are hurt.

The question of whether or not you should then is a completely different question. You are mixing up two questions.

1. Is it selfish? 100% yes (of course only in the case where people actually care about you. If you are all alone you won't have to consider other people their feelings)
2. Does that imply that it is immoral? That's the real question and one that each person has to answer for themselves.

Also a little side note as I am kinda curious now. You mentioned suicide is deemed honorable in Asian cultures. I know nothing of those cultures, but are you implying that when a mother loses her son to suicide she'll go 'wow that was a really honourable thing to do' and then just continue with her life like nothing happened?

For some reason I highly doubt that and logic tells me she will feel devastated aswell (perhaps while having respect for his decision).

I learned that the phrase "You are a dishonor to the family" is not a stereotype. Growing up, I had many friends who were Korean, Chinese, and Japanese and their parents would tell them this regularly as well as push Medical School on them to be a doctor. I could totally see their parents, especially their fathers viewing suicide as honorable.

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

In Asian cultures, particularly, Japan, South Korea, and China, suicide can be deemed honorable.

Suicide is definitely not honorable in Chinese culture. If anything, I'd go as far as to say it's even more stigmatized than it is in Western cultures because it leads to "loss of face." It's hushed up, and mental health problems are a big no-no. If you are depressed, you are defective in some way.

Source: I am Chinese American. I grew up with extremely conservative Chinese parents. When I got hospitalized for suicidal thoughts a long time ago, my mom was much more angry about the fact that I was making her "lose face" in front of her friends than the fact I was suicidal.

 

[HGL91]

Suicide is definitely not honorable in Chinese culture. If anything, I'd go as far as to say it's even more stigmatized than it is in Western cultures because it leads to "loss of face." It's hushed up, and mental health problems are a big no-no. If you are depressed, you are defective in some way.

Source: I am Chinese American. I grew up with extremely conservative Chinese parents. When I got hospitalized for suicidal thoughts a long time ago, my mom was much more angry about the fact that I was making her "lose face" in front of her friends than the fact I was suicidal.

That's a good point. Sorry you experienced that. I had a Chinese American friend who attempted suicide in high school and it was the same way. Then when she went to UC Berkeley and got mostly As and some Bs, it still wasn't enough for her parents. :/

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

That's a good point. Sorry you experienced that. I had a Chinese American friend who attempted suicide in high school and it was the same way. Then when she went to UC Berkeley and got mostly As and some Bs, it still wasn't enough for her parents. :/

I graduated from an Ivy League University and was valedictorian in my high school. None of it was ever enough for my mom. She would sometimes beat me if I got grades like 96's on my tests in high school. My high school friends could never understand why I was so scared when I got grades like 96's. To them, it was a good grade, but for me, I feared my mom's reactions. If I was "lucky," I'd get a one-hour screaming session of her telling me that I'm garbage with no beating.
The hilarious part is she thinks she was an amazing parent because I graduated from an Ivy League school. She thinks the only reason I'm depressed is because I disobeyed her and chose not to go to medical school. She actually told me that if I went to medical school, I wouldn't be depressed.

 

[HGL91]

I graduated from an Ivy League University and was valedictorian in my high school. None of it was ever enough for my mom. She would sometimes beat me if I got grades like 96's on my tests in high school. My high school friends could never understand why I was so scared when I got grades like 96's. To them, it was a good grade, but for me, I feared my mom's reactions. If I was "lucky," I'd get a one-hour screaming session of her telling me that I'm garbage with no beating.
The hilarious part is she thinks she was an amazing parent because I graduated from an Ivy League school. She thinks the only reason I'm depressed is because I disobeyed her and chose not to go to medical school. She actually told me that if I went to medical school, I wouldn't be depressed.

Yeah, if she did a simple google search, she would find that the suicide rate for doctors is quite high compared to other professions. Also, doctors don't make as much as they used to so they have a lot of school debt.

For me, my mom pressured me to be skinny and gorgeous, bubbly and social, but I didn't stay consistent enough with that because I'm naturally geeky and introverted, so I never became a trophy wife nor had a career that had to do with my looks aside from working as a Cam Girl for a year. I feel like a personality-confused failure.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Anyone with common sense can acknowledge it is selfish to kill yourself when there are people who care about you. That has nothing to do with societal standards. It's a simple observation when looking at people who have lost people close to them. They are hurt.

The question of whether or not you should then is a completely different question. You are mixing up two questions.

1. Is it selfish? 100% yes (of course only in the case where people actually care about you. If you are all alone you won't have to consider other people their feelings)
2. Does that imply that it is immoral? That's the real question and one that each person has to answer for themselves.

Also a little side note as I am kinda curious now. You mentioned suicide is deemed honorable in Asian cultures. I know nothing of those cultures, but are you implying that when a mother loses her son to suicide she'll go 'wow that was a really honourable thing to do' and then just continue with her life like nothing happened?

For some reason I highly doubt that and logic tells me she will feel devastated aswell (perhaps while having respect for his decision).

It's not true, especially in modern times where SEA is progressively influenced by US and western Euro media.

 

[SelfHatingAspie]

Christianity is the most toxic disease ever inflicted onto civilization.

Back in the good old days of Ancient Greece, suicide was a perfectly normal part of life. When you knew you were done, you'd just apply to the powers that be for what was effectively an honourable discharge from life. When approved, you'd be issued with enough hemlock to do the job and that was that.

When the Christians invented all this "sanctity of life" horseshit, they condemned humanity to the path its on now. Sadly, with about two millennia of this mindset imbedded into most societies, it's going to take a hell of a long time to undo this damage.

 

[Divine Trinity]

The answer of course is it depends entirely on what culture you inhabit. Western culture (ironically as it claims to be and generally is progressive on many fronts), condemns suicide as "weak" and "selfish" mainly due to remnants of religious doctrine but also as well capitalism which explains why the stance on suicide in the middle ages was not as harsh as it is today.

In Asian cultures, particularly, Japan, South Korea, and China, suicide can be deemed honorable.

However it seems that Western propaganda has spread around the world and made suicide be deemed as immoral. Would you say anecdotally from experiencing the funeral of someone who suicided as well as talking to people about general opinions, do they think its selfish or not?

The short answer is yes, the reason is also quite simple, in that cultural diversity declines with what the PI call "human progress". The main dominant philosophies that has influenced the dominant empires of the last milennia have been: The abrahamic religions, Daoism, Confucianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. In the African continent and the Americas, native traditions continue to be extinguished mercilessly whether through genocide or coercion.

The point I'm alluding to is of course most people think alike on the topic of suicide (and many others) because they kill or excommunicate anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[IMALB]

What always amazes me is that the general public can turn a blind eye, or easily/quickly forget, about the widespread elder and child torture/abuse that is occurring with increased frequency ...... life is cheap, especially the lives of the very young and old. But wait, a person committed suicide, what a selfish and horrible atrocity. And where were many, not all certainly, but many when the person who made the decision needed their help. Also, why is mental suffering viewed as any less deserving of relief compared to physical suffering and why is euthanasia alright for every other creature on the planet. I wonder these things and others ........ But let them judge me .... just like they have all the other years of my life ..... F-em'.

 

[RM5998]

Well, my mom would certainly view it that way... Maybe she would see it as a final betrayal from me, the person who ruined her chances of a career. She's repeatedly said that I've wasted all the time and energy she spent on raising me, so I think she'll just think I'm being even more disrespectful of her by killing myself.

Admittedly, it is true that I've wasted her efforts. My entrance tests for college went to shit because I refused to study as hard as I could, coupled with a lot of bad luck. (For instance, I solved this one pretty difficult physics question correctly, but marked the wrong option, within the first 10 minutes, and I noticed it while I was doing it. And it went downhill from there, in a paper where your rank drops by hundreds for each wrong answer.) And I stopped studying in college, but I couldn't find anything else to make myself happy. I know I would have been happy if I just kept on trying my hardest to please mom, but... it was too difficult. I just wanted a break. Too bad I decided that I wanted a break when that wasn't a choice. Nobody tells you that you don't really build up credit for the effort you put in as a kid, you merely build up expectations for more.