Discussion Is suicide only thought of by the mentally ill?

[halleyscomet]

I was discussing this with a friend earlier today, I was wondering what you guys thought.

My friend believes that suicidal thoughts/ideation are just symptoms of an illness. She thinks that mentally well people will never think of suicide, no matter what happens in their life. She believes that suicidal thoughts are an illness in itself.

However I disagree, I think suicide is a result of suffering, not illness. I think her stance is quite offensive actually, belittling our pain to a chemical inbalance, ignoring the trauma and suffering we've had to endure.

But I suppose medically speaking, healthy people do not want to die.

What do you think?

 

[UKscotty]

I think it depends how you frame it up and look at it.

I believe there must be a mental defect to consider CTB, I just can't understand why a mentally healthy person would want to CTB.

However, physical pain and lifes conditions can impact mental health for sure and wear us down to the point of wanting to CTB.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Thoughts of suicide can exist amongst those who aren't mentally ill. I'm not mentally ill and I have had thoughts about suicide before and I have seen a dew users come on here before, stating that they aren't mentally ill and that their reasons for wanting to ctb stem from other things, like the state of our society.

 

[DeadKennedy]

i think it would be really hard to contest that there are many situations where a healthy person would ctb. if you were abt to become a prisoner of war who knew he would be tortured to death for information, you might take a cyanide capsule if you had one. tbh, i think most people would admit that there is at least one situation where they would ctb if they were honest with you and you gave them a good example. many of those situations dont involve mental illness at all. i think many of us on this site agree that there are more of these situations than the general public acknowledges, and the really difficult question is when it starts to become mental illness, but to say ctb is only caused by mental illness is so obviously disprovable.

 

[Meteora]

However I disagree, I think suicide is a result of suffering, not illness. I think her stance is quite offensive actually, belittling our pain to a chemical inbalance, ignoring the trauma and suffering we've had to endure.

I agree to this.

Maybe the view of your friend is one of the problems why people even suicide. They just call us mentally ill and distance themselves from us. I find it so arrogant and I honestly wish there is reincarnation so these entitled people will learn what suffering means.

 

[EmptyHeaded]

It's definitely not only considered by mentally ill people. People with physical illness come to mind. IIRC euthanasia (or assisted suicide) isn't even legal for mentally ill people in many countries.
Many more people have reported suicidal ideation than those who have a mental illness.
"A report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) looking at mental health and suicidal behaviors from 2011 to 2021 indicates that 13% of high school girls had attempted suicide (30% had seriously considered it). That jumped to more than 20% for LGBTQ+ teens (45% had seriously considered it)."
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/07/psychologists-preventing-teen-suicide
I highly doubt that this can just be chalked up to mental illness.

 

[tbroken]

Same here, i'm not mentally hill but i understood everything of life and even if I'm not the worst human being on earth, I'm not even the best and I cannot live with all these thoughts in my head forever.
I'm also surrounded by ppl who lost their mind due to cocaine and are also pretencious about life and stuff or other who act like "pure" and are even worster than the drug addicted ones
My father put me in multiple mess and he never apologized nor he seems to understand.
My parents invested in things they want to protect because they are used to, but didn't really think about MY life and My future. I had to make it All alone and now I'm tired af.
I just wanted to live and enjoy my time on earth, but I really saw Too much,or it was just not the case.

 

[INTJme]

What even is illness? Usually, illness is characterised as a temporary affliction that's abnormal and harmful for the person.

In that regard, I honestly can't even think of depression being a mental illness, and a lot of depressed individuals ideate about suicide. See, there's nothing illogical about depression. In many ways, it's a safety mechanism of the brain to minimise the feelings of suffering, be it grief, sadness, loneliness etc. People don't lose their rationality when depressed, barring those moments of overwhelming emotional outbursts but you don't need to be depressed to have those, everyone has them. There's also the theory of Depressive Realism which proposes that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than those not depressed. So how is the thought of suicide even necessarily a function of mental illness or an illness in itself?

Anybody going through intense suffering can have them! Sure, mentally ill are more prone to think of suicide but aren't they also the ones suffering the most? It's only logical that they consider it more than "healthy people", just like a hungry person would think of food more than someone who just had a full meal! So if someone is so logical, does being mentally ill necessarily entail they lack sound judgment?

I've personally known people who ctb-ed because their business failed and had too much debt. They were stressed but weren't mentally ill. They ended their life so that their family could get insurance money. Isn't that logical in some way? So how could suicidal ideation be a mental illness or even a characteristic of it?

 

[TransientEternal]

No, if you believe the world to be meaningless then why wouldn't suicide be a valid solution?

 

[Linda]

I'm not mentally ill. I will ctb if my husband dies before me. By then I will have done all that I can reasonably hope to achieve in life, and the alternative might be spending months wasting away in a hospital bed or care home. I would much rather go out on my own terms

 

[cosmic_traveler]

I was discussing this with a friend earlier today, I was wondering what you guys thought.

My friend believes that suicidal thoughts/ideation are just symptoms of an illness. She thinks that mentally well people will never think of suicide, no matter what happens in their life. She believes that suicidal thoughts are an illness in itself.

However I disagree, I think suicide is a result of suffering, not illness. I think her stance is quite offensive actually, belittling our pain to a chemical inbalance, ignoring the trauma and suffering we've had to endure.

But I suppose medically speaking, healthy people do not want to die.

What do you think?

If your life was full of pleasure, love, and comfort you would say "this is heavenly". Just the opposite, if your life is full of pain, loss, and misery, you would say "this is hell".

It's all perspective. 100% of the human population has considered suicide even if it was only for a second. Human minds want to know/understand. Those that are experiencing hell may consider suicide a better alternative to living in hell.

 

[bipbapbop]

I was discussing this with a friend earlier today, I was wondering what you guys thought.

My friend believes that suicidal thoughts/ideation are just symptoms of an illness. She thinks that mentally well people will never think of suicide, no matter what happens in their life. She believes that suicidal thoughts are an illness in itself.

However I disagree, I think suicide is a result of suffering, not illness. I think her stance is quite offensive actually, belittling our pain to a chemical inbalance, ignoring the trauma and suffering we've had to endure.

But I suppose medically speaking, healthy people do not want to die.

What do you think?

I think you are right. Any person who is forced to experience prolonged suffering will eventually have thoughts of CTB regardless of how mentally healthy they started out. My therapist even told me that CTB is just your brains way of trying to escape prolonged pain. However, some people might argue that prolonged suffering can cause mental illness. Also, illnesses like depression aren't always a result of chemical imbalance and some chemically imbalanced people wouldn't be considered mentally ill. I think I personally believe that mentally healthy people generally do not want to CTB, but there are always exceptions to every rule.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it can be a symptom of mental illness. What frustrates me is- I don't feel like the psychological side of healthcare is anywhere near the level of physiological healthcare. What other illnesses rely pretty much solely on a patient describing their symptoms?!! It almost feels like a pseudoscience to me. Imagine if they didn't bother taking blood tests, x rays, ECG's! Imagine after complaining of chest pains, they simply took you into surgery and cut you open. It would be ludicrous!

Why do we even accept that kind of approach for mental illness? Why risk taking a drug when they don't entirely know how the brain works or, how this drug will affect it? Not that I'm against medication but personally, I'm very wary of it.

I do agree that it isn't 'natural' for an animal to want to kill itself. Animals instinctively want to survive. But- how natural are we? Are antinatilists and homosexuals mentally ill for not wanting to reproduce? (Although, maybe homosexuals may want children.) We've surely got to a stage where we don't call a difference of opinion or a lifestyle choice a mental illness?

Regardless though- I think- if they want to insist this- they ought to be able to prove it. I'd truly be fascinated to know whether my brain works differently to a non suicidal person's brain. I don't believe I have debilitating mental illness.

It's such an important issue for doctors and scientists to figure out though because at the moment- it's surely restricting who gets access to VAD. They need to work out whether ideation is a symptom of mental illness. Whether some mental illnesses are treatment resistant and whether someone can retain adequate mental competency regardless of mental illness.

But, to answer the original question- no, I don't think ideation is always the result of mental illness. Someone in untreatable chronic pain may still actually want to live. They may not actually be depressed as such. Just that they can't see a way out of their circumstances. In fact- they seem like the prefered clientel for some of the suicide clinics. They don't actually want to accept people who are suicidal! So sure- I think suicide can absolutely be a rational decision if someone's circumstances seem terrible and unsolvable.

Again, a mental illness may perhaps distort our perception so that it feels as if our problems are worse than they actually are. But there- I think we run into new issues. Who decides how many problems a person should put up with? Who decides what should make a person happy? These things surely can't be decided by anyone other than the person who is living this life. Otherwise- they are nothing more than a drone or slave. Life is a subjective experience. No one should be deciding and insisting how another person should experience their life.

Of course- they could in good faith suggest things they might try. They could suggest that the person may be suffering from depression and that it could possibly respond to treatment but- again, seeing as that side of healthcare seems so backward, I don't see how anyone could know for sure at present.

 

[halleyscomet]

I think it can be a symptom of mental illness. What frustrates me is- I don't feel like the psychological side of healthcare is anywhere near the level of physiological healthcare. What other illnesses rely pretty much solely on a patient describing their symptoms?!! It almost feels like a pseudoscience to me. Imagine if they didn't bother taking blood tests, x rays, ECG's! Imagine after complaining of chest pains, they simply took you into surgery and cut you open. It would be ludicrous!

Why do we even accept that kind of approach for mental illness? Why risk taking a drug when they don't entirely know how the brain works or, how this drug will affect it? Not that I'm against medication but personally, I'm very wary of it.

I do agree that it isn't 'natural' for an animal to want to kill itself. Animals instinctively want to survive. But- how natural are we? Are antinatilists and homosexuals mentally ill for not wanting to reproduce? (Although, maybe homosexuals may want children.) We've surely got to a stage where we don't call a difference of opinion or a lifestyle choice a mental illness?

Regardless though- I think- if they want to insist this- they ought to be able to prove it. I'd truly be fascinated to know whether my brain works differently to a non suicidal person's brain. I don't believe I have debilitating mental illness.

It's such an important issue for doctors and scientists to figure out though because at the moment- it's surely restricting who gets access to VAD. They need to work out whether ideation is a symptom of mental illness. Whether some mental illnesses are treatment resistant and whether someone can retain adequate mental competency regardless of mental illness.

But, to answer the original question- no, I don't think ideation is always the result of mental illness. Someone in untreatable chronic pain may still actually want to live. They may not actually be depressed as such. Just that they can't see a way out of their circumstances. In fact- they seem like the prefered clientel for some of the suicide clinics. They don't actually want to accept people who are suicidal! So sure- I think suicide can absolutely be a rational decision if someone's circumstances seem terrible and unsolvable.

Again, a mental illness may perhaps distort our perception so that it feels as if our problems are worse than they actually are. But there- I think we run into new issues. Who decides how many problems a person should put up with? Who decides what should make a person happy? These things surely can't be decided by anyone other than the person who is living this life. Otherwise- they are nothing more than a drone or slave. Life is a subjective experience. No one should be deciding and insisting how another person should experience their life.

Of course- they could in good faith suggest things they might try. They could suggest that the person may be suffering from depression and that it could possibly respond to treatment but- again, seeing as that side of healthcare seems so backward, I don't see how anyone could know for sure at present.

I completely agree with you, the lack of healthcare for psychological issues is horrendous - however I don't think it's a lack of trying. We don't know much about the brain itself at all, even for neurological issues so it's reasonable that there isn't much treatment/understanding even though it sucks.

However I think the homosexual argument is flawed, many species are naturally homosexual or bisexual even incestuous! It's actually more against nature that we don't reproduce with biological relatives then being homosexual funnily enough! (not promoting incest of course lol)

I think there most likely is a difference in brain functionality between suicidal people and non suicidal people though. If you look at brain scans between a normal brain and ptsd brain for example, the activity in the different areas of the brain are vastly different! It's not too outlandish to think that this wouldn't also apply to suicidal and non suicidal brains.

This really comes to a question of what being healthy really is, and who has the authority to decide that.

I think people are too afraid to admit the validity of suicide, because it goes against most of our laws, healthcare systems, religions and how society functions in general - so they blame it on illness automatically.

 

[nofunclub]

It's definitely not only considered by mentally ill people. People with physical illness come to mind. IIRC euthanasia (or assisted suicide) isn't even legal for mentally ill people in many countries.

This! I feel like with terminal illness in particular, wanting to end things in a peaceful way, instead of prolonging the suffering for you and your family, makes sense and is not a result of mental illness.

Plus this is dark, but on 9/11 for example, I don't think anyone could question the sanity of the people who decided to jump to their deaths rather than burn alive. It was not mental illness, it was a direct result of an impossible external situation.

We can then argue about what other types of external conditions make suicide a viable choice for mentally healthy people. There's room for nuance in less extreme examples. But it shows that mental illness isn't the only reason for suicide.

 

[halleyscomet]

This! I feel like with terminal illness in particular, wanting to end things in a peaceful way, instead of prolonging the suffering for you and your family, makes sense and is not a result of mental illness.

Plus this is dark, but on 9/11 for example, I don't think anyone could question the sanity of the people who decided to jump to their deaths rather than burn alive. It was not mental illness, it was a direct result of an impossible external situation.

We can then argue about what other types of external conditions make suicide a viable choice for mentally healthy people. There's room for nuance in less extreme examples. But it shows that mental illness isn't the only reason for suicide.

This is so true!

I think that maybe this happens because of a type of si. Like everyday cancer forms in our bodies, but the cell detects it's cancerous and self destructs before it becomes an issue to the rest of the body (not in every case of course). Maybe suicide in cases like this are due to something like that?

 

[Justnotme]

If we consider a person as a piece of meat who has "programs" and interface settings, then yes, thoughts of suicide are a deviation from the factory settings, a breakdown of the interface

But this world is multifaceted, and I don't think that human nature has been fully studied.
Or the nature of man is known, but carefully hidden by those who feed on our blood and energy.

Therefore, no, suicide can be a call of the "soul and heart"

Suicide actually solves a lot of problems

In fact, suicide is a REACTION to an illness.
Here is an example: you are in sexual slavery and you want to commit suicide.
Is suicide a disease? No. The disease in this case is the vile intentions of other human beings who use your body for money and sex.
The desire to commit suicide is the desire to cure oneself of this disease by renouncing the flesh, the physical body.
One of the ways

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Under society's definition of mentally ill, yes. However, I don't fully agree with society's definition of mentally ill as they are keen to pathologise those who see the world for what it is and for those who don't want anything to do with life. In my case, I don't want to work and I never had any interests of passion to do anything regarding work or academics. I also find it absurd at how I'm expected to have passion for these things even though I was brought to existence against my will... I didn't consent to any of this. So whilst society may call me mentally ill for that, I won't believe that I'm mentally ill for not having any desires to slave my life away when I never even wanted to live to begin with

 

[davidtorez]

I think its a case by case scenario. To label every person who wants to ctb or who have killed themselves as mentally ill is just untrue . There are clinically depressed people with chemical imbalances in the brain who have an illness for sure, but not everyone fits that paradigm .
Alot of people have situational depression also which can cause suicidal actions or thoughts, plus I don't think people necessarily want to die for the sake of dying, but instead want the pain or suffering to end . I wonder if there's been people who just wake up one day and say " I wonder what it'd be like to die" and just ctb for the sake of it.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'm neither mentally ill nor do I have other health issues but my circumstances may require CTB sooner or later.

The circumstances that make me suicidal have the potential to make me mentally ill long term - they already caused me depressive episodes and still do from time to time.

 

[xxRoro]

I was discussing this with a friend earlier today, I was wondering what you guys thought.

My friend believes that suicidal thoughts/ideation are just symptoms of an illness. She thinks that mentally well people will never think of suicide, no matter what happens in their life. She believes that suicidal thoughts are an illness in itself.

I am unsure about it. I get both sides. I think it could be a mental illness when I think about the people who want to be disabled or believe they supposed to be disabled.
On the other hand I agree with you. Suffering is so exhausting when you have this for too long. But idk if we all had a better future if we kept going. What if it's like 10 years more of suffering and then you get your reward. This sounds off. Idk if someone is so strong to get through this shit time, I'm not.

 

[Darkover]

Not at all Some contributing factors include:
• Financial stress or job loss
• Loss of a loved one (particularly in last two years)
• Legal problems or a previous criminal record
• Being a victim of abuse
• Relationship problems
• Depression, anxiety or other emotional problems
• History of self-harm and/or previous suicide attempts
• Feelings of isolation
. Feeling like a burden
. Being isolated
. Increased anxiety
. Feeling trapped or in unbearable pain
. Increased substance use
. Expressing hopelessness
. Sleeping too little or too much

 

[sserafim]

Same here, i'm not mentally hill but i understood everything of life and even if I'm not the worst human being on earth, I'm not even the best and I cannot live with all these thoughts in my head forever.
I'm also surrounded by ppl who lost their mind due to cocaine and are also pretencious about life and stuff or other who act like "pure" and are even worster than the drug addicted ones
My father put me in multiple mess and he never apologized nor he seems to understand.
My parents invested in things they want to protect because they are used to, but didn't really think about MY life and My future. I had to make it All alone and now I'm tired af.
I just wanted to live and enjoy my time on earth, but I really saw Too much,or it was just not the case.

How did they lose their minds due to cocaine?

I agree to this.

Maybe the view of your friend is one of the problems why people even suicide. They just call us mentally ill and distance themselves from us. I find it so arrogant and I honestly wish there is reincarnation so these entitled people will learn what suffering means.

Same! They need and deserve to suffer as well

 

[willitpass]

I don't think so. The first thing for me that comes to mind is physical illness pushing someone to ctb. There are also cases of desperation where someone is about to experience a major life change they no longer see as redeemable, such as going bankrupt or impending arrest. Someone who reaches old age may simply just feel their life is done and they would like to go before their body and mind start to fail them. There are many reasons outside of mentally ill dispare that I can see someone deciding to ctb.

Same! They need and deserve to suffer as well

Respectfully this is seems rather odd to say. Someone who is expressing a belief that comes from their genuine feelings deserves to suffer so they can understand us? I would never wish this kind of suffering on anyone, especially not someone who is stating their belief about something without mal intent. I don't understand the desire to wish suffering on someone who isn't trying to cause any harm to anyone. Does that belief sometimes lead to problems for people, yes. But it's not done out of mal intent, and I don't think wishing suffering on people will ever solve a problem.

 

[tbroken]

How did they lose their minds due to cocaine?

They are stupid and they think it is a nice thing, because they see it as glamorous or a thing for rich ppl.
But i mean, i know also ppl who don't use drugs, but it is always connected to your social level, utility and stuff.
It is easy to become friend with the devil but it is really difficult to become friend with god, or at least i see it like that.
If i was perfect or close to perfection i wont be here, i suppose...the same is for them with drugs and other stuff.
And trust me, their brain is FRIED, you can see it and you can ear their speechess,
completely no-sense ahaha
But also my brain is fried, due to depression.
But mine is just random venting, now everything is fake, faces, tits, butts... So why should you be scared?

 

[Blank_Slate]

No I don't think so.
I find it hard to believe that any intelligent person can go years and years in life without ever contemplating.

I think the difference is in the nature of the thought - but I could be biased. I've certainly seriously thought about it, but I'd say I have a pretty close to zero percent chance of ever doing it. I had some struggles when I was in university and a few years after I graduated. Those were pretty certainly the worst time of my life and I had pretty regular thoughts about CTB and lots of symptoms of depression at that time.

Aside from that time in my life though I've always felt lucky enough to have pretty even keeled emotions, even when really bad things happen to me I don't seem to have issues, other peoples deaths, bad events in my very stressful career etc - been able to stay feeling pretty good. I would consider myself a very neurotypical mentally healthy person if that helps.

The one thing I'm pretty sure would really cause me to crumble would be if I ever get really sick or injured. It's something that's bothered me since I was a child and I'm pretty certain I would rather CTB than live through something like that for me personally, as just being in a hospital is basically torture for me.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Some years some suicidology experts reviewed a lot of cases if successfully completed suicide and came to the conclusion that 90% of the cases they reviewed had a mental illness at the time of their deaths. And they extrapolated that statistic to everyone. It's an oft-cited stat.

Consider that these people had the greatest investment in the suicide=mental illness narrative and still conceded that a whopping 10% of the cases they reviewed showed no signs in their estimation of a mental illness. That's not a negligible percentage.

And of course it's by no means true that everyone in that 10% group necessarily acted more rationally than those who were deemed to be mentally ill when they killed themselves.

What's true is that everyone who kills themselves after long deliberation wasn't *happy*. Whether unhappiness amounts to depression as understood as an illness is a tricky and very individual question.

 

[FuneralCry]

The view that wanting to die is an supposedly an "illness" is just insane pro-life delusions/brainwashing. Humans truly are such a repulsive species with how many act like one is ill for wanting to choose when they die or wishes to permanently be relieved from having the ability to suffer in an existence that was always futile and undesirable in the first place.

Existence itself is the true problem as it's the source of all suffering and my wish to die is a result of becoming aware of how truly undesirable existence is, to me suicide is very rational especially as there are no disadvantages to not existing yet existing can potentially get so torturous beyond how one can even imagine.

I don't see what's supposedly so "ill" about wanting to escape and avoid suffering in an existence where one is just waiting to die anyway, I'd always prefer to die peacefully on my own terms than to die a slow, painful death from old age, I see no value in suffering for decades on end just to be tortured by old age when nobody can suffer from being eternally unaware. The view that wanting to die is supposedly an "illness" is just pro-lifers trying to brainwash other people just to try and prolong meaningless suffering, I find it really insulting how they force their absurd, insensitive delusions onto others.

 

[Install-Gentoo]

I think you're going to get a rather biased response on this forum. :)
But I think there's some way to maneuver between both sides. One could argue that suffering and poor quality of life induces suicidal thoughts, which is then a mental illness.
But then that just blurs the line of what a "mental illness" means. If a "mental illness" just means "believing in things I think are harmful" then that's a great way to classify political or religious beliefs as mental illness.

 

[sserafim]

They are stupid and they think it is a nice thing, because they see it as glamorous or a thing for rich ppl.
But i mean, i know also ppl who don't use drugs, but it is always connected to your social level, utility and stuff.
It is easy to become friend with the devil but it is really difficult to become friend with god, or at least i see it like that.
If i was perfect or close to perfection i wont be here, i suppose...the same is for them with drugs and other stuff.
And trust me, their brain is FRIED, you can see it and you can ear their speechess,
completely no-sense ahaha
But also my brain is fried, due to depression.
But mine is just random venting, now everything is fake, faces, tits, butts... So why should you be scared?

"One seldom recognizes the devil when he is putting his hand on your shoulder."