Is suicide irrational?

[everythingoes]

You know what they say, "suicide is always an irrational decision". What do you think?

 

[limeoctave]

i think it depends on circumstances

You know what they say, "suicide is always an irrational decision". What do you think?

and what do you think?

 

[Darkover]

Let's say the total amount of suffering till this instant is x. If you choose to continue existing (till natural death) , let's say you are going to get y amount of suffering, and gain z amount of happiness. If z-y>0, then it makes sense to endure suffering, otherwise suicide is justified from a negative utilitarian perspective.

Perhaps you think that suffering can't be measured (it's subjective), the kind of math that i present above is fallacious and leaves out the human aspect. If you think so, wouldn't you agree that any justification of continuing/ending life should be left to the individual and not dictated by the society.

 

[lizzywizzy09]

It depends on your reason.

Let's say the total amount of suffering till this instant is x. If you choose to continue existing (till natural death) , let's say you are going to get y amount of suffering, and gain z amount of happiness. If z-y>0, then it makes sense to endure suffering, otherwise suicide is justified from a negative utilitarian perspective.

Perhaps you think that suffering can't be measured (it's subjective), the kind of math that i present above is fallacious and leaves out the human aspect. If you think so, wouldn't you agree that any justification of continuing/ending life should be left to the individual and not dictated by the society.

Agreed. Especially if the suffering is connected to a reason that cannot be rectified with effort.

 

[UKscotty]

Depends on the situation. If it's to avoid torture or something then yes.

For depression, it's usually irrational as most do recover.

For those of us with untreatable depression, it's rational as there is no hope of recovery.

It's extremely difficult to say when suicide is rational and justified.

 

[pyx]

only if you commit to posturing material needs over all else i.e such as the preservation of life, which many view as sacred. but even within these constraints you can just argue through negative utilitarianism

i personally think that if an individual can justify their decision in a rational capacity, then they are clearly making a rational decision unless they admit to otherwise

 

[JensenX]

There is one key element that I don't see discussed here. I don't read all threads, so excuse me if it has been discussed. I've brought up the topic a few times, but there was no response from anyone.

The question is, what happens after you die? It would seem important to discuss this. Most religions believe we are going to enter another realm of existence. This could mean exiting this realm might not necessarily be a relief.

If you believe you will merely cease to exist after death, then you also won't experience any relief as you will no longer exist. You won't enjoy the relief you seek. I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing. The universe only exists through my perception of it.

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?

 

[Darkover]

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?

hopefully nothing forever otherwise you will be reborn somewhere inside any machine

 

[pyx]

There is one key element that I don't see discussed here. I don't read all threads, so excuse me if it has been discussed. I've brought up the topic a few times, but there was no response from anyone.

The question is, what happens after you die? It would seem important to discuss this. Most religions believe we are going to enter another realm of existence. This could mean exiting this realm might not necessarily be a relief.

If you believe you will merely cease to exist after death, then you also won't experience any relief as you will no longer exist. You won't enjoy the relief you seek. I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing. The universe only exists through my perception of it.

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?

some people would argue that intermediate states tend towards suffering. this is likely true of many depressed individuals, so suffering outweighs pleasure. therefore nonexistence, being the negation of all feeling, would be preferable

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

You know what they say, "suicide is always an irrational decision". What do you think?

They say that lie to control everyone.

It's totally illogical .

Of course if someone is going to be homeless or be in torture suicide is rational in those and in many other cases..

I think wanting to work so hard just to exist under threat of extreme pain and many horrible things that can happen is irrational. Wanting to get old is irrational and if one doesn't suicide they will get very old

Furthermore life is decaying aging being a slave to your body , mind , brain and to society / culture and their ingrained false beliefs. Just one false belief is the topic of this thread "suicide is always irrational" and they have most humans believing that lie and many others
.

It's totally rational to desire non-existence. Only only only in non-existence forever is a human completely out from under the threat of extreme suffering.

 

[Ww42]

Let's say the total amount of suffering till this instant is x. If you choose to continue existing (till natural death) , let's say you are going to get y amount of suffering, and gain z amount of happiness. If z-y>0, then it makes sense to endure suffering, otherwise suicide is justified from a negative utilitarian perspective.

Perhaps you think that suffering can't be measured (it's subjective), the kind of math that i present above is fallacious and leaves out the human aspect. If you think so, wouldn't you agree that any justification of continuing/ending life should be left to the individual and not dictated by the society.

It should be up to the person to decide. The man drowning in 3 feet of water vs the one drowning in 8 feet are both still drowning. Lifes one big gray area that needs decided by the person

 

[fleetingnight]

Sometimes, not always. People can act impulsively in a panic. Not that I blame them for it, it's just a shame. It's sad to say it can be the "right" decision, but people can have logic-based reasons to want to die. Some things are worse than death.

 

[JensenX]

It should be up to the person to decide.

No, there must be restraint because many people are not capable of making rational decisions when they are suffering from depression. They do need supervision. Many depressed people are not even capable of performing a successful suicide because they are not thinking clearly. It takes planning and clear thinking to be successful.

 

[Darkover]

No, there must be restraint because many people are not capable of making rational decisions when they are suffering from depression.

No there should be the freedom to choose without society dedicating who gets to live or die

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Suicide is an option if there are no other ways left anymore. An honorable suicide is always preferred to endless suffering and pain in life.

Hence, suicide is never an irrational decision. It takes a lot for someone to consider suicide as the last resort and it takes even more to carry it out. That can't be irrational in any way.

 

[Not A Fan]

I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing.

What are your problems with non-existence? You don't have to accept it, but that doesn't change anything. Can you describe in what way you find it perturbing?

Personally, I don't find accounts of the afterlife convincing. Most religions have their own version of it, which actually makes it less believable. Even among religious believers, there's no consensus on what the afterlife actually entails. Even among people of the same faith, or denomination, have disagreements. This is because no one has any idea and it is 100% speculative.

Thus far, no one's claims about the afterlife have been convincing to me. I suspect many here at this forum may feel the same way. Which might be the reason for the lack of response to your previous posts on the subject.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

You know what they say, "suicide is always an irrational decision". What do you think?

What's so bad about "irrational" anyway? People make irrational decisions all the time, it's what we do!

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I think that suicide is irrational in some cases but rational in other cases. It depends on why you're suicidal and what your mindset around life is

 

[yellowjester]

Suicidality can be a symptom of mental illness; which is not to say that you cannot rationally CTB over Depression, BPD, Schizophrenia, and what not -au contraire-, but it's definetely something that should be taken into consideration when evaluating your options. Consulting a third party (ie. a therapist) would be helpful, but finding one who won't have you immediatly thrown into the looney bin can be a real challenge (based on what I've read), so caution is advised.

 

[JensenX]

What are your problems with non-existence? You don't have to accept it, but that doesn't change anything. Can you describe in what way you find it perturbing?

Personally, I don't find accounts of the afterlife convincing. Most religions have their own version of it, which actually makes it less believable. Even among religious believers, there's no consensus on what the afterlife actually entails. Even among people of the same faith, or denomination, have disagreements. This is because no one has any idea and it is 100% speculative.

Thus far, no one's claims about the afterlife have been convincing to me. I suspect many here at this forum may feel the same way. Which might be the reason for the lack of response to your previous posts on the subject.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

In your case, you've done the right thing - you've convinced yourself that there is no afterlife and you will cease to exist. You'll become nothing. That's fine if you're convinced you are correct as you will have no apprehensions getting in your way. Of course, it doesn't mean you are right.

I think you are wrong.

I don't believe in nothingness after I die, due to my strong beliefs that the universe and all that exists was created by a supernatural being. I don't want to get heavily into the details as that is a very long conversation, but it will explain how I find nothingness disturbing. I'm 65 years old, went to university and studied science. I've spent many hours of my life discussing this topic. I feel it is a very important and necessary discussion when one is deciding to prematurely end their lives.

No there should be the freedom to choose without society dedicating who gets to live or die

No, there has to be protection of people who are immature mentally, or not of sound mind.

 

[Darkover]

the universe and all that exists was created by a supernatural being

The universe is an intelligence test and your failing that test with your faith
who created the supernatural being at some point in time something had to of come into existence from nothing

 

[Praestat_Mori]

There is one key element that I don't see discussed here. I don't read all threads, so excuse me if it has been discussed. I've brought up the topic a few times, but there was no response from anyone.

The question is, what happens after you die? It would seem important to discuss this. Most religions believe we are going to enter another realm of existence. This could mean exiting this realm might not necessarily be a relief.

If you believe you will merely cease to exist after death, then you also won't experience any relief as you will no longer exist. You won't enjoy the relief you seek. I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing. The universe only exists through my perception of it.

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?

None of us knows what comes after death. There are NDEs but that could also be just sth our brain imagines in the process of dying. Whatever comes after death and we have not understood what consciousness really is - how can dead matter become conscious in certain combinations of atoms and molecules?

Let's assume consciousness (the soul) is a kind of energy that leaves the body in the process of dying then this energy would reunite with the quantum vacuum energy that is everywhere throughout the universe. That's a kind of nothingness but it's not nothing.

 

[JensenX]

The universe is an intelligence test and your failing that test with your faith
who created the supernatural being at some point in time something had to of come into existence from nothing

Do you want to start a debate on this? Must be as if you've already insulted my intelligence. I'm trying to restrain myself from getting deep into a debate about Creation.

There is matter and no matter (nothing). We only comprehend everything this way. A supernatural being is not part of the material universe and exists in a realm outside of matter (and time) and does not need to be part of the material universe and does not need to be created.

Atheists (Evolutionists) need matter to start the process of the formation of the universe. They are the ones with the problem of where everything started as they only see matter.

 

[Orange Cat]

Suicide is an option if there are no other ways left anymore. An honorable suicide is always preferred to endless suffering and pain in life.

Hence, suicide is never an irrational decision. It takes a lot for someone to consider suicide as the last resort and it takes even more to carry it out. That can't be irrational in any way.

There are cases of irrational suicides. For example people who are in a psychosis caused by mental illness or who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time.

There are also a lot of impulsive suicides. Everyone doesn't think through the decision of whether to end their life carefully or see it as a last resort. Some people commit suicide at the drop of a hat over a problem that could have been solved fairly easily.

 

[JensenX]

None of us knows what comes after death. There are NDEs but that could also be just sth our brain imagines in the process of dying. Whatever comes after death and we have not understood what consciousness really is - how can dead matter become conscious in certain combinations of atoms and molecules?

Let's assume consciousness (the soul) is a kind of energy that leaves the body in the process of dying then this energy would reunite with the quantum vacuum energy that is everywhere throughout the universe. That's a kind of nothingness but it's not nothing.

But the quantum vacuum energy is part of the physical universe we live in. A spiritual realm might be separate from the physical universe we inhabit. A realm where time and matter do not exist.

 

[Linda]

You know what they say, "suicide is always an irrational decision". What do you think?

No, it's not always an irrational decision. But sometimes it is. (When it is impulsive, for example.)

 

[Praestat_Mori]

There are cases of irrational suicides. For example people who are in a psychosis caused by mental illness or who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time.

There are also a lot of impulsive suicides. Everyone doesn't think through the decision of whether to end their life carefully or see it as a last resort. Some people commit suicide at the drop of a hat over a problem that could have been solved fairly easily.

I agree there can be cases when it is an irrational decision (especially when drugs are being consumed) but nobody is forced to take the drugs. Imo that's a risk someone takes who consumes such drugs. I think this is a minority of all cases - probably those people have been passively suicidal already before. Even in such cases, it does not come out of nowhere in my opinion.

Psychosis is indeed a different thing where people can do things they wouldn't do otherwise.

All that is complex and I think it's difficult to draw a clear line on what is rational / irrational suicide.

 

[derpyderpins]

It's a sliding scale. Think about people who jump out of a burning building because falling is less painful than burning to death. That's very rational. Then think about someone who has always been happy but ctbs the day after his girlfriend dumped him. That's irrational.

Since we can easily identify an example of each on two ends of the spectrum, it's easy to visualize a scale of how rational ctb is from case to case.

 

[intr0verse]

I'm trying to restrain myself from getting deep into a debate about Creation.

There is no debate about creation. It's just a religious myth and most religions have a version of it.

A supernatural being is not part of the material universe and exists in a realm outside of matter (and time) and does not need to be part of the material universe and does not need to be created.

Then i wonder how can someone conclude such a being exist?

 

[Praestat_Mori]

A realm where time and matter do not exist.

Imo that's the quantum vacuum! Nothing exists there yet it's full of energy creating particles and antiparticles out of nothing.

There was a discussion whether we are conscious after death: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/are-we-still-conscious-after-death.158033/ some time ago.

But the quantum vacuum energy is part of the physical universe we live in. A spiritual realm might be separate from the physical universe we inhabit. A realm where time and matter do not exist.

The quantum vacuum was there before the universe came into existence - obviously out of nothing - but when there is an infinite amount of time everything is possible.

 

[Not A Fan]

In your case, you've done the right thing - you've convinced yourself that there is no afterlife and you will cease to exist. You'll become nothing. That's fine if you're convinced you are correct as you will have no apprehensions getting in your way. Of course, it doesn't mean you are right.

I think you are wrong.

It really didn't take any convincing. Someone told me there was an afterlife, but they didn't convince me. So rather than being convinced of anything in particular, I am unconvinced of the specific claims that have been made regarding an afterlife. Something about the burden of proof, etc etc.

Ultimately, I have no way to be absolutely certain about it and I would never try to convince anyone about this matter one way or the other. But it was not some process that I chose to convince myself "there is no afterlife." I guess you could call it agnosticism... I think it is a field of 'knowledge' that isn't accessible and could well likely be mirage created in our minds by language.

You're right though.. its a very long conversation, and there is so much to it. I'm also open to the fact that I may be completely wrong. If God decides to visit me in my room tonight and we have a nice chat, maybe I'd change my mind! The invitation is open... To be honest I could use the company! lol