Inert Gas Method and Pain?

[LetzteAusfahrt]

I'm surprised, I thought you'd created your mask to use inert gas?

Nitrogen was never an option for me. I didn't make the system for myself.
Nitrogen is too fast and too peaceful for me.

I want to be able to experience and enjoy my dying with a clear mind.
That is why I will not take any additional medication in addition to the SN

 

[Deleted-User-0]

Thanks @LetzteAusfahrt .
I'm still marvelling at your invention here how you managed to connect a nitrogen tank to a scuba mask.And you are also communicating expertly in English even though you are using Google Translate. You are a genius!.
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/attachments/img_20200827_202700_3-jpg.43119/

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-method-and-pain.46853/#post-847343

You @LetzteAusfahrt and @Diver_K_A are really great guys. I hope you 2 don't ctb soon. I would love to talk to both of you again. This is one of the few reasons for me not to ctb yet to meet such intelligent and great individuals like the both of you.

Thanks man sometimes I wish I could buy a big land and people like us could come together to create a community and work on healing without any judgment oh well maybe one day ...

 

[UterEntonaur]

@Diver_K_A, @LetzteAusfahrt

Thank you both for the information in this thread. I found a few places locally (London, UK) that rent pure nitrogen tanks/welding equipment, but I didn't realise how expensive it can all get, so I know that's not an option for me. (I'll probably use SN but jumping from Beachy Head is my last resort)

 

[TheQ22]

It's surprising how the costs add up

 

[Deleted-User-0]

@Diver_K_A, @LetzteAusfahrt

Thank you both for the information in this thread. I found a few places locally (London, UK) that rent pure nitrogen tanks/welding equipment, but I didn't realise how expensive it can all get, so I know that's not an option for me. (I'll probably use SN but jumping from Beachy Head is my last resort)

How much did they ask for a tank of nitrogen out of interest?
I have been to Beachy Head few years back I would personally never overcome my SI to jump.

 

[Thatdude]

I know whole airplanes full of people have lost oxygen and reported no pain or discomfort afterwards, but they hadn't made it to the stage where the organs start shutting down. My understanding is that above all, the body protects the central nervous system. That would be the last thing to go. Being a NERVOUS system, wouldn't that suggest pain?

I plan on popping as many morphine pills as I can beforehand but there's a big difference between lack of consciousness and lack of sensation, right?

Something about the PPhb and Exit International folks.. they make it sound too easy.

Does anyone else feel that way?

This is the method I picked so far. As far as I can tell, there is no pain. You simply pass out, and then over a 20 to 40 min period you're dead. Now from what some have said, it's best to take muscle relaxers before doing it. That or strap whatever on you. Apparently the body has seizures or something like it as you die. I'm not sure how accurate this is.

How much did they ask for a tank of nitrogen out of interest?
I have been to Beachy Head few years back I would personally never overcome my SI to jump.

One of the newest methods uses a debreather system. It uses a closed system that has soda lime which absorb all the CO2 as you breath. That away you're only taking in Inert gasses

 

[Deleted-User-0]

This is the method I picked so far. As far as I can tell, there is no pain. You simply pass out, and then over a 20 to 40 min period you're dead. Now from what some have said, it's best to take muscle relaxers before doing it. That or strap whatever on you. Apparently the body has seizures or something like it as you die. I'm not sure how accurate this is.

The book also says it's preferable to sit on a chair and secure the tank by taping it to the chair. Human body can do whatever it can to survive even in unconsciousness remember we have been evolved to survive.
What muscle relaxers were you referring to?

 

[bov]

This is the method I picked so far. As far as I can tell, there is no pain. You simply pass out, and then over a 20 to 40 min period you're dead. Now from what some have said, it's best to take muscle relaxers before doing it. That or strap whatever on you. Apparently the body has seizures or something like it as you die. I'm not sure how accurate this is.


One of the newest methods uses a debreather system. It uses a closed system that has soda lime which absorb all the CO2 as you breath. That away you're only taking in Inert gasses

They don't sell the debreather anymore. Hopefully they will again soon. Probably legal stuff.

 

[Thatdude]

What muscle relaxers were you referring to?

That was never mentioned. Since I'm not close I never gather that fine of details on this.

They don't sell the debreather anymore. Hopefully they will again soon. Probably legal stuff.

Ya but can't we make our own?
I haven't seen much on the failure rate on this exact way, so this is making me iffy. But assuming the success rate is up there. It seems like a debreather would have a higher chance of success than the normal exit bag method.


Like I wouldn't recommend anyone to put a lot of faith into that one since there just isn't enough info on it. I can't find of anyone that died with one, and getting a break down of what you need to build one is iffy at best. But if it turns out to be something, I would think this would give the normal exit bag method a run for it's money.

 

[Lastsauce]

I'm pretty set on the nonrebreather mask, but I haven't yet tested one to see if it'll fit my face. If the fit isn't perfect, are there any adjustments I can make?

You just won't know if the seal holds when your facial muscles relax or spasm.
That's the reason why those small, non face covering medical masks are not recommended.
Maybe you could glue it to your face with superglue lol.

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

You just won't know if the seal holds when your facial muscles relax or spasm.
That's the reason why those small, non face covering medical masks are not recommended.
Maybe you could glue it to your face with superglue lol.

Glue can't allow to abort the attempt. I'd rather use any soft and elastic substance used in bricolage / activities for children. There are so many things that can be shaped by hand and are sticky enough to be used to cover small leaks between 2 surfaces.

Anyway in my opinion the rebreather has more risks of failure than the exit bag. There isn't a constant flow of inhert gas that enters the mask, like when using a gas-tank. So if there is a leak in the mask, oxygen will come in and it will have to be inhaled (otherwise it's not burned) and go through some cycles in the soda lyme (so that CO2 is adsorbed). With the exit bag, there is a constant flow of gas from the gas-tank. This will efficiently create a flow of gas escaping the bag/mask from any small leak. If there is a flow of air going out (strong enough), air cannot come in from the same leak.

The rebreather was not constructed to be safer or more peacaful than the exit bag. It just avoids the gas-tank and it makes everything more portable and compact.

 

[bov]

Why do you all think the American Veterinary Association opposed gas for euthanasia? They say it takes seven-eight minutes for a pig—do they think the pig feels pain that whole time??

 

[Deleted member 23726]

You don't understand the method propery.

If you continuously feed gas into the pot with the hose, then the bag MUST be open at the bottom.
If only because the exhaled CO2 has to be transported out of the bag.

You must not close the hole that is created by the tube that is inserted.

It is best to glue the hose in the bag so that the gas flows out at the top point.

You can also use any plastic sack that already has built-in tape to tie it together.

You can also tie the string together over the bag after you've put it on. Or with an adhesive tape.

The string only serves to fasten the bag to something. Not to close the opening tightly

Why shouldnt we glue the hole where the hose enters the bag?

Why do you all think the American Veterinary Association opposed gas for euthanasia? They say it takes seven-eight minutes for a pig—do they think the pig feels pain that whole time??

I had the same question!

 

[Aap]

Glue a hole? You are fundamentally misunderstanding how an exit bag is constructed.

you are also completely misrepresenting the AVA's recommendations. Why don't you actually look at what the ava says and not regurgitate garbage posted on the internet?


S3.3 SWINE
Methods of euthanasia commonly applied to swine include CO2, gunshot, captive bolt, overdose of an anesthetic administered by a veterinarian, elec- trocution, and blunt force trauma (suckling piglets only). Gas mixtures of N2O, Ar, N2, and CO2 may also be used but are not currently commonly applied in the field. Selection of the most appropriate method for each situation is dependent upon size and weight of the animal, availability of equipment and facili- ties, operator skill and experience with the proce- dure, aesthetic concerns, human safety, and options for disposal of remains. Certain physical methods of euthanasia may require adjunctive methods such as exsanguination or pithing to ensure death. A brief de- scription of each method and appropriate candidates for it are described. Detailed information on inhaled, noninhaled, and physical methods of euthanasia may be found in the respective sections of this doc

 

[Deleted member 23726]

That was never mentioned. Since I'm not close I never gather that fine of details on this.

Ya but can't we make our own?
I haven't seen much on the failure rate on this exact way, so this is making me iffy. But assuming the success rate is up there. It seems like a debreather would have a higher chance of success than the normal exit bag method.


Like I wouldn't recommend anyone to put a lot of faith into that one since there just isn't enough info on it. I can't find of anyone that died with one, and getting a break down of what you need to build one is iffy at best. But if it turns out to be something, I would think this would give the normal exit bag method a run for it's money.

Are you talking about the debreather? Or nitrogen in general?

 

[Deleted member 23726]

Glue a hole? You are fundamentally misunderstanding how an exit bag is constructed.

you are also completely misrepresenting the AVA's recommendations. Why don't you actually look at what the ava says and not regurgitate garbage posted on the internet?


S3.3 SWINE
Methods of euthanasia commonly applied to swine include CO2, gunshot, captive bolt, overdose of an anesthetic administered by a veterinarian, elec- trocution, and blunt force trauma (suckling piglets only). Gas mixtures of N2O, Ar, N2, and CO2 may also be used but are not currently commonly applied in the field. Selection of the most appropriate method for each situation is dependent upon size and weight of the animal, availability of equipment and facili- ties, operator skill and experience with the proce- dure, aesthetic concerns, human safety, and options for disposal of remains. Certain physical methods of euthanasia may require adjunctive methods such as exsanguination or pithing to ensure death. A brief de- scription of each method and appropriate candidates for it are described. Detailed information on inhaled, noninhaled, and physical methods of euthanasia may be found in the respective sections of this doc

Sorry I'm
New to this website. Who is AVA?

I know whole airplanes full of people have lost oxygen and reported no pain or discomfort afterwards, but they hadn't made it to the stage where the organs start shutting down. My understanding is that above all, the body protects the central nervous system. That would be the last thing to go. Being a NERVOUS system, wouldn't that suggest pain?

I plan on popping as many morphine pills as I can beforehand but there's a big difference between lack of consciousness and lack of sensation, right?

Something about the PPhb and Exit International folks.. they make it sound too easy.

Does anyone else feel that way?

I feel the same way, that the method is too easy to believe. Also, with morphine, wouldn't your breathing rate be slower and thus you may need more nitrogen? How can I get morphine? Also, why didn't you consider the debreather? What kind of mask/bag will you use?

 

[Aap]

Morphine would have no impact on the need for more nitrogen. The nitrogen isn't "doing" anything. It is replacing oxygen in the environment.

 

[Deleted member 23726]

Morphine would have no impact on the need for more nitrogen. The nitrogen isn't "doing" anything. It is replacing oxygen in the environment.

But wouldn't it affect how quickly/slowly the person breathes? Like maybe morphine slows down the breathing and he would run out of nitrogen gas faster? Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Aap]

I understand your thought process, but it is mistaken. Slowly breathing nitrogen doesn't enable someone to survive longer in a zero oxygen environment than fast breathing. Again, nitrogen is not "doing" anything other than displacing oxygen around the head.

your thought process would be correct if you were breathing a toxic gas in a standard oxygen environment

 

[Deleted member 23726]

This is the method I picked so far. As far as I can tell, there is no pain. You simply pass out, and then over a 20 to 40 min period you're dead. Now from what some have said, it's best to take muscle relaxers before doing it. That or strap whatever on you. Apparently the body has seizures or something like it as you die. I'm not sure how accurate this is.


One of the newest methods uses a debreather system. It uses a closed system that has soda lime which absorb all the CO2 as you breath. That away you're only taking in Inert gasses

Wouldnt we die faster than 20-40 mins? I heard it take five mins only ten to be sure

I understand your thought process, but it is mistaken. Slowly breathing nitrogen doesn't enable someone to survive longer in a zero oxygen environment than fast breathing. Again, nitrogen is not "doing" anything other than displacing oxygen around the head.

your thought process would be correct if you were breathing a toxic gas in a standard oxygen environment

Sorry i mean wouldnt the gas cylinder finish before death if breathing is very slow due to medication?

The book also says it's preferable to sit on a chair and secure the tank by taping it to the chair. Human body can do whatever it can to survive even in unconsciousness remember we have been evolved to survive.
What muscle relaxers were you referring to?

Isnt it better if we lay down in bed? If were sitting on a chair we could fall down when having seizures

 

[Aap]

I understand what you are saying. Death will come at nearly the same speed regardless of fast or slow breathing.

 

[Thatdude]

Wouldnt we die faster than 20-40 mins? I heard it take five mins only ten to be sure

I think it has to deal more with how long it can be before you can't be revived. I could be wrong, and it should be noted I don't have a medical background. But this is just what I'm finding on the net.

 

[Deleted member 23726]

I don't think that protection of the nervous system is a priority over any other organ system as such, but we have certainly evolved plenty of measures in order to keep it from harm. It may not be the last system to stop functioning, for example, all nerve cells may die, but cells in other systems may still continue to operate for some time afterwards, if they don't vitally depend on input from neurons. I would say however, that the nervous system is the system which most strongly defines our lives, because it is the one which enables experience itself.

There is a difference between consciousness and sensation. Consciousness may be defined as your experience, while sensation may be defined as the feelings of pain and pleasure. You may lose all sensation yet remain conscious, but you need consciousness in order to experience sensation.

I haven't thoroughly read the PPH and have only investigated Exit's recommendations a small amount. My impression was that there is certainly room for more information, more discussion about the details. Personally I would never describe any suicide method as "easy", and I do agree that they need to express the risks and potential points of failure more emphatically.

I am personally convinced that inert gas asphyxiation is painless because I have never read anything to the contrary. But I acknowledge that this isn't robust enough proof, it won't be enough to convince many people and rightfully so. Also, I do think there needs to be some kind of authority, a trustworthy point of reference that people can rely on in order to be confident in their method, and how much pain they can expect. I use Wikipedia for the most part, but it fails to touch on many crucial issues, namely the pain level experienced for any given method of suicide.

Do you think the inert gas method would still be painless even after a couple minutes in when the organs start getting damaged?

Basically just explain what the regulator does. I've seen posts asking about hooking the gas flow into a sealed system, which can create severe lung injury.

You mean it would create severe lung injury if someone released the inert gas into an enclosed, Small space?

 

[profoundexperience]

Do you think the inert gas method would still be painless even after a couple minutes in when the organs start getting damaged?

Unconsciousness is induced chemically for surgery -- to relieve a patient from feeling any pain. I've had surgery and have no recollection of being cut open, whatsoever.

The inert gas method, if done correctly, induces unconsciousness very quickly... well before bodily pain (if any exists) can be consciously experienced. One really shouldn't reach a "couple minutes" and still be awake.

Any pain signals (if any exist) sent after loss of consciousness are basically irrelevant.

You mean it would create severe lung injury if someone released the inert gas into an enclosed, Small space?

Inert gases are stored in containers at a much higher pressure than regular air. If one suddenly exposes their lungs (or any small, confined volume) to that high pressure -- like a balloon blown-up too much pops -- bodily damage can occur. That's the whole point of a "regulator": it down-regulates the high pressure to a more desirable pressure.

 

[Deleted member 23726]

Unconsciousness is induced chemically for surgery -- to relieve a patient from feeling any pain. I've had surgery and have no recollection of being cut open, whatsoever.

The inert gas method, if done correctly, induces unconsciousness very quickly... well before bodily pain (if any exists) can be consciously experienced. One really shouldn't reach a "couple minutes" and still be awake.

Any pain signals (if any exist) sent after loss of consciousness are basically irrelevant.

Inert gases are stored in containers at a much higher pressure than regular air. If one suddenly exposes their lungs (or any small, confined volume) to that high pressure -- like a balloon blown-up too much pops -- bodily damage can occur. That's the whole point of a "regulator": it down-regulates the high pressure to a more desirable pressure.

Oh thank you so much profoundexperience. But i wanted to ask: doesnt the general anesthesia Used in surgeries block the pain signals? Meanwhile the inert gas just makes us unconscious but doesnt block pain signals. Why arent they using the nitrogen method for executions yet or for euthanizing animals or for legal assisted suicide if its painless? I know its painless (at least in the beginning) but im just worried it would become painful later on

 

[profoundexperience]

doesnt the general anesthesia Used in surgeries block the pain signals? Meanwhile the inert gas just makes us unconscious but doesnt block pain signals.

An apt analogy: If a tree falls in the woods, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? If you're completely unconscious, what difference do any pain signals make?

If there even are such signals: Inert gas has been used by many and witnesses don't generally report believing the person was in pain. Certainly nothing like some other methods favored here.

And, if done properly, the brain itself (perceiver of pain) is very quickly shutting down/dying. So if there is pain AND if there is some kind of way unconsciously to perceive it (I don't think there is either)... in the worst case it could last only for an incredibly short time.

Why arent they using the nitrogen method for executions yet or for euthanizing animals or for legal assisted suicide if its painless?

There's a BBC documentary called How to Kill a Human Being. I highly recommend it. You can find it in a couple of mainstream video sites and I think it is in the SS wiki. It compares several methods and concludes inert gas/nitrogen to be the "most humane". At the very end, he confronts a "death penalty advocate" who basically says he would oppose nitrogen BECAUSE the death penalty shouldn't be humane -- it should be painful for the criminal. Isn't that special??

The PPH doctor guy is developing "Sarco" device/capsule which uses inert gas for legally assisted & I know a few months ago he was preparing to test on real people in Switzerland... so, it is coming for that. I suspect it has been slow because doctors already have infallible methods like N.

As far as animals for slaughter... that's also kinda covered in the BBC documentary. I suspect the expense of switching-over slaughterhouses (economics and safety of plant personnel) is keeping it from happening... at least so far.

I know its painless (at least in the beginning) but im just worried it would become painful later on

If done correctly, there shouldn't be much of a "later on" at all.

And, your concern applies to all methods... and actually all deaths whatsoever... not just inert gas: Can an unconscious, ~dead body experience pain in any appreciable way? I think the scientific consensus is no.

 

[Aap]

It has been proposed for executions. Second, your brain dies before your other organ systems, so your question of pain when they "shut down" is moot. Third, you aren't fully understanding the purpose of anesthetics or pain. Pain has two components - the conscious component (feeling pain) plus a physiologic component. When your body experiences pain, there are definite physiologic happenings (increase BP, HR, respiration rate, cortisol release, etc.). These are detrimental for surgery, and the anesthetics used block both conscious and physiologic responses to pain.

in the context of ctb, it is irrelevant. Under inert gas when unconscious, you have absolutely no perception of pain. Even if it were painful as you die from it (which it absolutely is not), you would not perceive anything.

I understand where your line of questioning is coming from, but it is misguided. Your brain dies before the rest of you, and were there pain (which there is NOT) there would be no perception of pain.

 

[Deleted member 23726]

@LetzteAusfahrt , @Diver_K_A
I will do a nitrogen scuba mask too. I will rig up a scuba mask (no leaks tested under water already) to a nitrogen tank . So this my method is just like scuba diving but instead of having an oxygen tank i switch the oxygen tank to a nitrogen tank and fool the brain stem. My method is to use it underwater since it is a scuba mask:
1. I hold my breath . 2. I put on the nitrogen scuba mask. 3 I submerge myself under the water still holding my breath

4. once under the water i'll clip on to a chain to weights so that i can't resurface.

5.once i'm locked under water then i breathe in nitrogen under water so i'll be unconscious in 20 seconds . i'll be locked underwater without the capability to resurface. so even if my survival instinct removes the mask then i'll drown anyway . so there is no chance of brain damage and no chance of survival. Do you think it will work?Do you see any thing that might make this fail ?

I was able to obtain several nitrogen tanks from a local welding shop so i'm pumped! They didn't even ask any questions just sold them to me . very nice people. so i have an unlimited nitrogen supply to do testing! This is going to work!

The slovak guy suceeded with a nitrogen suba mask in air though not underwater like my method:

Suicidal nitrogen inhalation by use of scuba full-face diving mask - PubMed

A 29-year-old man was found dead lying on the bed in a hotel room in a famous Slovak mountain resort. He had a full-face diving mask on his face, connected through a diving breath regulator to a valve of an industrial (nondiving) high-pressure tank containing pure 100% nitrogen. The breath...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This guy in India used a nose mask not a scuba nitrogen mask :

Nitrogen gas suicide can trigger more such cases: Experts

The news of a young techie who committed “easy and painless” suicide by inhaling nitrogen gas in Hyderabad has left the Indian health care providers worried. This may lead others suffering from chronic depression and having suicidal thoughts to follow suit, they fear.

www.hindustantimes.com

Why do you want to do it underwater?

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Why do you want to do it underwater?

It's just an idea i had of diving underwater with a nitrogen tank in place of an oxygen tank. I was just thinking of drowning but using nitrogen to pass out quickly underwater. My main method would be drowning just trying to inhale just enough nitrogen to blackout and so not feel the pain of drowning. If it doesn't work i still drown. i just want to die but would be better wih no pain. So it's risky cause you might just drown and feel pain anyway so don't try this at home. but it's a risk i might take if i can get the details of this to be realiable, the mask, technique etc.. My main goal is to die.

 

[Deleted member 23726]

That sounds extremely elaborate. My impulse for overcoming the si is just to take a few heavy sedatives 20 mins before switching on the gas. @LetzteAusfahrt has discouraged me from that course of action, saying it would amp up the risk of a botched attempt. While he may be right, I suspect most of the skill is required in the setup, which I would do in a state of sobriety. With sedatives, I think switching on the gas might feel like switching on a nightlight.

He told you its better not to take sedatives prior?