Discussion "Incelism" and CTB

[Michelstaedter]

For a long time, I had a problem that some may have already talked about, but I personally want to express it so that those who have lived or are living in a similar situation to mine can think about it.

I'm a chaste, mid-30s man who understands that I'll never have a girlfriend or children, and I'll probably never have sex unless I pay for it. Throughout my teens and young adulthood, I struggled to cope with this, to the point where I had suicidal and homicidal thoughts, and I harbored hatred or resentment, both toward people in relationships and even toward women. My problem was solved by understanding that having a girlfriend was not the solution to an existential problem or to the hatred I have for life-existence whose pain has no name or gender, nor is it as if life seems detestable to me just because there are bad people, but because of many, many things that I could list and perhaps many agree that life is not great, not only because you are depressed, but because you know that others are the same and there is that empathy that makes you see that while you may be happy, someone else is suffering somewhere in the world (and unfairly). That led me to understand that in my case, not having had a girlfriend, others could have been in their first relationship, also girls who perhaps do not meet that stereotype of being bad people, self-interested or cruel when they reject a boy, so I dispelled that hatred and became more cautious with my thoughts, because in the end nobody was to blame, not even me, because all this is a social problem, where some people act in a certain role and become detestable because it seems that in this life there has to be a duality of "good people" so that there are also "bad people", otherwise one thing would not exist in the other, at least in theory.

I want to conclude my brief presentation by saying that I say this because recently in my country a case occurred where a 19-year-old boy killed a classmate because of those radical INCEL ideas that exist on some social networks, so I felt compelled to write this because I felt identified when I was a teenager, I even remember when the Elliot Rodger case first came out and I felt lucky not to be as radical as him, but I felt strange about his situation since he had money, a certain physical attractiveness and I had neither, but he had a hatred that although I had felt, had never reached that degree as to "make my INCEL redemption" and that would lead to a total tragedy. I thought about committing CTB for being an INCEL, I seriously thought about it when 12 years ago a girl rejected me and somehow I felt that I had deserved to at least have had another date (I only went out with her once, she never accepted a second date) and I really felt bad, I felt ugly, I felt as if I was literally a cockroach or something too disgusting for a woman to notice me, although today I do not have those kinds of thoughts and feelings, I understand that it would have been foolish of me to have committed CTB for a reason like that, so I hope those who think that being ugly or feeling miserable, horrible or unworthy of a woman paying attention to them, reflect on those kinds of thoughts, since deep down it is not your fault to have been born with an unattractive physique, nor with social skills or a certain charisma that is attractive to women, so I truly wish that those who think of committing CTB for that reason, reflect and yes, know that Life is shit, but not necessarily because of that, but because of its essence and that in the end not having had a girlfriend, or sex, or being attractive to a woman is an argument to leave this world.

 

[Off_Switch]

But what DIDN'T Elliot Rodger have? A decent personality. He probably could have pulled someone if he did. May not have even been his fault, as he appeared to be somewhat autistic. Have you tried glowing up and assessing whether you would appeal to women from a personality standpoint?

 

[Liebestod]

Elliot didn't have money, his mom had connections but that's about it, that's a common misconception about him and the Rodger family in general, they weren't rich they were upper middle class at best.

 

[persepexa]

This sounds really tough and I'm sorry you're going through this. Dating is tough for everyone. Everyone goes through rejection. I'm sure the situation isn't hopeless though. There are always things you can do to meet people. People with shared interests you can bond over. I don't think it's necessarily about "attracting" someone. Being attractive is part of it but there's more to being attractive than how you look. Being kind, listening to people, caring for others, those things make you attractive too. I can't lie I don't really understand incels too well but I don't think being celibate is a bad thing. You shouldn't see it as a punishment. It's just what you're going through right now, it doesn't have to last forever.

 

[Michelstaedter]

But what DIDN'T Elliot Rodger have? A decent personality. He probably could have pulled someone if he did. May not have even been his fault, as he appeared to be somewhat autistic. Have you tried glowing up and assessing whether you would appeal to women from a personality standpoint?

Several years ago, I tried. As I mentioned in part of my story, I felt I "deserved" one more date with a girl whose effort I felt was good because I didn't feel like I was overwhelming her in the pursuit, but I also didn't act like an indifferent guy, and so on with several others. However, it never worked out, and I'm talking about my time in college.
It's worth noting that I went to a psychologist and dealt with all that insecurity and low self-esteem stuff. That's why I say I don't care today, but I'm sorry that so many are going through it and want to die for it.

Elliot didn't have money, his mom had connections but that's about it, that's a common misconception about him and the Rodger family in general, they weren't rich they were upper middle class at best.

Well, maybe he wasn't rich, but at least he had more money than the average guy in my country and a more attractive physique than average, and that's what happened. In fact, I feel worse because driving gives me a lot of anxiety. I felt like I didn't have that attractive physique, and well, it doesn't matter. But my reflection in those days was: "If he had what he had and did that, what's in store for me?" That's why I gave up, and I suppose it was for the best. I stopped feeling hatred and contempt toward myself and, in general, toward others (regarding a relationship).

This sounds really tough and I'm sorry you're going through this. Dating is tough for everyone. Everyone goes through rejection. I'm sure the situation isn't hopeless though. There are always things you can do to meet people. People with shared interests you can bond over. I don't think it's necessarily about "attracting" someone. Being attractive is part of it but there's more to being attractive than how you look. Being kind, listening to people, caring for others, those things make you attractive too. I can't lie I don't really understand incels too well but I don't think being celibate is a bad thing. You shouldn't see it as a punishment. It's just what you're going through right now, it doesn't have to last forever.

No, in fact, that situation doesn't hurt me anymore. I only regret it because there are guys who remind me of me and think about doing something that might not be right, whether it's hurting someone or hurting themselves. Today, I don't think my idea of CTB has even a little relation to not having had a girlfriend or sex. In fact, I feel like I'd rather die than fantasize about having a relationship, children, and all that, because it doesn't interest me; I'm not interested in a relationship anymore.

 

[Bronzehawkattack]

I disagree with your way of thinking.
I think that genuinely if I were able to be loved, suicide wouldn't be such a tantalizing option for me.
I don't think incel ideas are too extreme and radical. The world is only moving further in that direction, we were just early to the party, younger men are more and more dissatisfied with the way they're treated, in dating, in life.

It's tough moving through the world knowing people view you as lesser.
That other people have it much easier just because they look better, not even some type of positive quality of their personality.

But what DIDN'T Elliot Rodger have? A decent personality. He probably could have pulled someone if he did. May not have even been his fault, as he appeared to be somewhat autistic. Have you tried glowing up and assessing whether you would appeal to women from a personality standpoint?

This is the problem with viewing Elliot Rodgers as an incel, and the faction of incels who worship him tend to be the dumbest people on the planet.
Elliot Rodgers was a volcel. He self-admitted to being able to get interest from girls. You can plainly see the guy wasn't ugly. He didn't struggle for money. His brother is a model for fucks sake.

His entire thing was that he was obsessed with 10/10 beautiful Blonde white girls.
And more than that, he believed that they should approach him and ask him out. He was upset that they never did.

How is that comparable to a genuinely ugly freak like actual, real incels, who don't come from privileged families and blessed with good looks?
He has nothing in common. He could have gotten laid anytime he wanted, and the fact that people ever worshipped him on incel forums is what made me distance myself from those forums, more than the hate, more than the extremism.

 

[Forever Sleep]

When I was younger, if I'd known the term, I probably would have identified as a femcel. I was accutely aware that I didn't have the desired attributes of other girls/ women. And yes, I suppose I did feel some resentment towards men. That they would go for such shallow attributes first and, not look beyond. That's not to say all men do that. That's not to say women don't do the same.

I was a hypocrite under it all. My crushes were all of attractive guys. Not necessarily tall or wealthy though. I'd say some incels are hypocrites too. They aren't moaning that the fat chick won't give them a chance. They likely also have their eyes set on something more desirable.

I think it's kind of damaging the way we are taught though really. That everyone deserves love. On the face of it, that seems fair. People certainly deserve respect. They deserve not to be abused or ridiculed but- love? Love surely develops because one person admires the attributes (whatever they may be) of another.

Preference ultimately. It's not fair to expect someone to devour strawberry ice cream if they hate the stuff. I think there is this totally bizarre feeling that dating should be based on some kind of equal opportunites basis. Obviously, it doesn't work like that! We aren't even friends with people we don't particularly like. We certainly wouldn't want to exchange bodily fluids with them.

I can understand being upset about that. I was too. We can't exactly help what we're born with. I can understand hating society and biology for prioritizing attributes that we don't have. But, individuals? That's where I take issue I guess. I think there is massive resentment/ anger from (some) incels towards individual women. Which ironically, makes them all the more unattractive- unfortunately.

Instead, I wish they would register that we are all influenced by our biology, what we are taught is attractive etc. Most of us aren't completely immune to that. Even them. They likely have a preference too. If they are really up for dating just anyone- how long would that even last?

 

[Kitsuné_]

I couldnt have explained it better @Forever Sleep

 

[Michelstaedter]

I disagree with your way of thinking.
I think that genuinely if I were able to be loved, suicide wouldn't be such a tantalizing option for me.
I don't think incel ideas are too extreme and radical. The world is only moving further in that direction, we were just early to the party, younger men are more and more dissatisfied with the way they're treated, in dating, in life.

It's tough moving through the world knowing people view you as lesser.
That other people have it much easier just because they look better, not even some type of positive quality of their personality.


This is the problem with viewing Elliot Rodgers as an incel, and the faction of incels who worship him tend to be the dumbest people on the planet.
Elliot Rodgers was a volcel. He self-admitted to being able to get interest from girls. You can plainly see the guy wasn't ugly. He didn't struggle for money. His brother is a model for fucks sake.

His entire thing was that he was obsessed with 10/10 beautiful Blonde white girls.
And more than that, he believed that they should approach him and ask him out. He was upset that they never did.

How is that comparable to a genuinely ugly freak like actual, real incels, who don't come from privileged families and blessed with good looks?
He has nothing in common. He could have gotten laid anytime he wanted, and the fact that people ever worshipped him on incel forums is what made me distance myself from those forums, more than the hate, more than the extremism.

Okay, I read your comment and I actually agree with Elliot Rodger, but I'll try to refute the first part of what you're saying, in order to clarify my point.
I'm not very familiar with internet pop culture, where your personality or ideology is redefined around an idea that's similar to what others think. I don't identify as an incel, although as I mentioned, technically I am an incel because I wanted to have a partner and have sex, but during my school days I was rejected by women, and after that I fell into an existential hole where I became a NEET. My approaches to women were ironically somewhat successful but without managing to "unleash" my incel identity, since I never had sex, at most kisses, but in the end I was also rejected on the path to "sexual intimacy."
That said, I believe anyone can commit CTB, since in the end, freedom and lucidity depend on who considers their act reasonable, regardless of whether it may seem pathetic, irrational, or whatever. Because I've experienced it, and in intensity. I imagine that for many, not having had a girlfriend, not having had sex, being looked down on by people, and even suffering bullying and other types of harassment is truly hell. But then we're talking about things that go beyond just not having had sex or not having had a girlfriend. I won't go into the subject in depth, but I remember seeing some cyberbullying of a guy who is approximately 37 years old and whose life has been exactly like that of an incel, a NEET, and with many other emotional problems. Some videos were leaked where he had been tricked by someone into doing sexual things in front of a video camera, and it unleashed a wave of mockery, harassment, and so on, which could well have triggered him to want to kill himself because what happened to him was quite serious. The point is that the least of his problems was not so much being an incel or not being attractive, but the harassment and emotional problems he had, added to the fact that he had family problems, that was the truly problematic thing, because there was even a small clip leaked (strange, because he recorded it) where he was with a prostitute, which leads me to think that then he was no longer a virgin, an incel in the sense that although women had rejected him, he was, but he had had sex.
In conclusion, I think that talking about love and sexual relationships is like talking about two different things, because although there are boys who would like to die for not having felt affection, it is very different from talking about boys who have been rejected, yes, but their pain lies in not having had a relationship and sex, which I don't know if I don't understand then what the concrete concept of being incel is, because sometimes it is not clear to me if they refer to such as something literal like not having been able to have sex or even a relationship or simply being rejected by women, even when going to prostitutes and that is the only way to have sex.

When I was younger, if I'd known the term, I probably would have identified as a femcel. I was accutely aware that I didn't have the desired attributes of other girls/ women. And yes, I suppose I did feel some resentment towards men. That they would go for such shallow attributes first and, not look beyond. That's not to say all men do that. That's not to say women don't do the same.

I was a hypocrite under it all. My crushes were all of attractive guys. Not necessarily tall or wealthy though. I'd say some incels are hypocrites too. They aren't moaning that the fat chick won't give them a chance. They likely also have their eyes set on something more desirable.

I think it's kind of damaging the way we are taught though really. That everyone deserves love. On the face of it, that seems fair. People certainly deserve respect. They deserve not to be abused or ridiculed but- love? Love surely develops because one person admires the attributes (whatever they may be) of another.

Preference ultimately. It's not fair to expect someone to devour strawberry ice cream if they hate the stuff. I think there is this totally bizarre feeling that dating should be based on some kind of equal opportunites basis. Obviously, it doesn't work like that! We aren't even friends with people we don't particularly like. We certainly wouldn't want to exchange bodily fluids with them.

I can understand being upset about that. I was too. We can't exactly help what we're born with. I can understand hating society and biology for prioritizing attributes that we don't have. But, individuals? That's where I take issue I guess. I think there is massive resentment/ anger from (some) incels towards individual women. Which ironically, makes them all the more unattractive- unfortunately.

Instead, I wish they would register that we are all influenced by our biology, what we are taught is attractive etc. Most of us aren't completely immune to that. Even them. They likely have a preference too. If they are really up for dating just anyone- how long would that even last?

I'm not really bothered, in fact I'm indifferent to the fact that women might find it disgusting or simply not attracted to me. I would rather be annoyed with the hypocrisy, where women or even men only see life from the point of view they want to see it according to their ideals, as if for example, someone attractive and even if he is not in a relationship at that moment said that incels should not feel bad for not having a girlfriend because in solitude you can also enjoy life ... A person is going to give their opinion from their perspective but without really knowing how others feel and I have lived and felt the rejections, the indifference of women knowing that in my current situation it is impossible for a woman to feel attracted to me and that more than bothering me or making me feel inferior, it gives me total indifference but that for many it would cause a lot of pain and anguish, that is my point, because in the end I have not had a girlfriend, I have not had sex, as you say, at some point I have noticed that I was attracted to a girl that I did not like, more than anything because of the physique, however and I consider that if I want to leave this world, it is not because of not having had a girlfriend, but because deep down everything This is so irrelevant and my current regret is the anguish of living and feeling what I feel in such an ambiguous way, which deep down and during my adolescence and youth I believed and assumed was due to "Not having felt the love of a girl."

 

[Bootleg Astolfo]

Don't mind me, just getting a good seat in case this turns into a quality shitshow !

 

[Bronzehawkattack]

Okay, I read your comment and I actually agree with Elliot Rodger, but I'll try to refute the first part of what you're saying, in order to clarify my point.
I'm not very familiar with internet pop culture, where your personality or ideology is redefined around an idea that's similar to what others think. I don't identify as an incel, although as I mentioned, technically I am an incel because I wanted to have a partner and have sex, but during my school days I was rejected by women, and after that I fell into an existential hole where I became a NEET. My approaches to women were ironically somewhat successful but without managing to "unleash" my incel identity, since I never had sex, at most kisses, but in the end I was also rejected on the path to "sexual intimacy."
That said, I believe anyone can commit CTB, since in the end, freedom and lucidity depend on who considers their act reasonable, regardless of whether it may seem pathetic, irrational, or whatever. Because I've experienced it, and in intensity. I imagine that for many, not having had a girlfriend, not having had sex, being looked down on by people, and even suffering bullying and other types of harassment is truly hell. But then we're talking about things that go beyond just not having had sex or not having had a girlfriend. I won't go into the subject in depth, but I remember seeing some cyberbullying of a guy who is approximately 37 years old and whose life has been exactly like that of an incel, a NEET, and with many other emotional problems. Some videos were leaked where he had been tricked by someone into doing sexual things in front of a video camera, and it unleashed a wave of mockery, harassment, and so on, which could well have triggered him to want to kill himself because what happened to him was quite serious. The point is that the least of his problems was not so much being an incel or not being attractive, but the harassment and emotional problems he had, added to the fact that he had family problems, that was the truly problematic thing, because there was even a small clip leaked (strange, because he recorded it) where he was with a prostitute, which leads me to think that then he was no longer a virgin, an incel in the sense that although women had rejected him, he was, but he had had sex.
In conclusion, I think that talking about love and sexual relationships is like talking about two different things, because although there are boys who would like to die for not having felt affection, it is very different from talking about boys who have been rejected, yes, but their pain lies in not having had a relationship and sex, which I don't know if I don't understand then what the concrete concept of being incel is, because sometimes it is not clear to me if they refer to such as something literal like not having been able to have sex or even a relationship or simply being rejected by women, even when going to prostitutes and that is the only way to have sex.

Technically, with prostitution, no one can be an incel.
Only technically.

I wouldn't consider someone who paid to fuck prostitutes not an incel, though. If I paid for Mike Tyson's WBC belt, would that mean anything? Would that make me a boxer? Would that make me a world champion boxer? No. Not at all. I wouldn't even be a title holder. I'd simply have a shiny trinket that means less than nothing.
The entire pain of an incel is being literally unable to be desired or attracted to. I can't consider someone who isn't ugly an incel.

The end goal of an incel isn't even necessarily having sex -- It's just sex is the ultimate proof of attraction, ultimate proof that someone actually can desire you.
If you've have sex without having to pay a hooker, you have your proof that you're not an unlovable, hideous creature, and that there is love out there for you.

If you've ever been loved, you wouldn't know the pain of never having it but seeing everyone else get it.

When I was younger, if I'd known the term, I probably would have identified as a femcel. I was accutely aware that I didn't have the desired attributes of other girls/ women. And yes, I suppose I did feel some resentment towards men. That they would go for such shallow attributes first and, not look beyond. That's not to say all men do that. That's not to say women don't do the same.

I was a hypocrite under it all. My crushes were all of attractive guys. Not necessarily tall or wealthy though. I'd say some incels are hypocrites too. They aren't moaning that the fat chick won't give them a chance. They likely also have their eyes set on something more desirable.

I think it's kind of damaging the way we are taught though really. That everyone deserves love. On the face of it, that seems fair. People certainly deserve respect. They deserve not to be abused or ridiculed but- love? Love surely develops because one person admires the attributes (whatever they may be) of another.

Preference ultimately. It's not fair to expect someone to devour strawberry ice cream if they hate the stuff. I think there is this totally bizarre feeling that dating should be based on some kind of equal opportunites basis. Obviously, it doesn't work like that! We aren't even friends with people we don't particularly like. We certainly wouldn't want to exchange bodily fluids with them.

I can understand being upset about that. I was too. We can't exactly help what we're born with. I can understand hating society and biology for prioritizing attributes that we don't have. But, individuals? That's where I take issue I guess. I think there is massive resentment/ anger from (some) incels towards individual women. Which ironically, makes them all the more unattractive- unfortunately.

Instead, I wish they would register that we are all influenced by our biology, what we are taught is attractive etc. Most of us aren't completely immune to that. Even them. They likely have a preference too. If they are really up for dating just anyone- how long would that even last?

There's no such thing as a femcel. They don't exist. You admit yourself that even the younger you that would have self-identified as a "femcel" would be no different than, say, an Elliot Rodger (minus the psychoticness that made him kill people)

With that out of the way, I agree, It's simple biology that makes people, especially women, turn their nose up at me when they see someone so hideous.
That's just their natural reaction to my appearance.

Is it not fair that my own natural reaction is to be hateful in return? You hate me, or are at least disgusted by me, simply for how I look. I'm not fat. I'm not out of shape. I'm not unhygienic or messy. I'm simply a hideous looking human being from factors outside of my control.

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't say It's natural for people to be disgusted by you, but It's not okay for you to naturally hate the world.
I don't advocate for violence, but when you say "It's just our natural instinct to find you repulsive to be around." you should expect every incel who hears that to give in to their natural reaction. That's dangerous. In a nihlistic way, I get that though, but the people who say shit like this aren't nihlistic, they wanna have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Michelstaedter]

Technically, with prostitution, no one can be an incel.
Only technically.

I wouldn't consider someone who paid to fuck prostitutes not an incel, though. If I paid for Mike Tyson's WBC belt, would that mean anything? Would that make me a boxer? Would that make me a world champion boxer? No. Not at all. I wouldn't even be a title holder. I'd simply have a shiny trinket that means less than nothing.
The entire pain of an incel is being literally unable to be desired or attracted to. I can't consider someone who isn't ugly an incel.

The end goal of an incel isn't even necessarily having sex -- It's just sex is the ultimate proof of attraction, ultimate proof that someone actually can desire you.
If you've have sex without having to pay a hooker, you have your proof that you're not an unlovable, hideous creature, and that there is love out there for you.

If you've ever been loved, you wouldn't know the pain of never having it but seeing everyone else get it.


There's no such thing as a femcel. They don't exist. You admit yourself that even the younger you that would have self-identified as a "femcel" would be no different than, say, an Elliot Rodger (minus the psychoticness that made him kill people)

With that out of the way, I agree, It's simple biology that makes people, especially women, turn their nose up at me when they see someone so hideous.
That's just their natural reaction to my appearance.

Is it not fair that my own natural reaction is to be hateful in return? You hate me, or are at least disgusted by me, simply for how I look. I'm not fat. I'm not out of shape. I'm not unhygienic or messy. I'm simply a hideous looking human being from factors outside of my control.

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't say It's natural for people to be disgusted by you, but It's not okay for you to naturally hate the world.
I don't advocate for violence, but when you say "It's just our natural instinct to find you repulsive to be around." you should expect every incel who hears that to give in to their natural reaction. That's dangerous. In a nihlistic way, I get that though, but the people who say shit like this aren't nihlistic, they wanna have their cake and eat it too.

It may sound cliché, but when I read where you refer to the "pain of not being loved," I remembered a bit of the feelings I had, the loneliness, the sadness, the pain, the times I cried and wanted to die just because I knew I had been rejected or simply ignored... I believe that in the end it is justifiable to want to die for it, although I have deeply rooted in that pain and now only see it as something that no longer makes sense to me. It makes no sense to me to suffer for something that is less than what the existential pain of being alive represents.

Perhaps my trick to rooting out that pain was realizing that most of the people I know who were in long-term relationships or were "successful" with women had miserable lives underneath. A guy who used to go to the gym and was attractive to women fell into drugs and used to frequent WhatsApp groups filled with depressed and lonely people. I don't think his "success" with women filled the existential void he also had, even though he didn't realize it, just like me.

 

[Bronzehawkattack]

It may sound cliché, but when I read where you refer to the "pain of not being loved," I remembered a bit of the feelings I had, the loneliness, the sadness, the pain, the times I cried and wanted to die just because I knew I had been rejected or simply ignored... I believe that in the end it is justifiable to want to die for it, although I have deeply rooted in that pain and now only see it as something that no longer makes sense to me. It makes no sense to me to suffer for something that is less than what the existential pain of being alive represents.

Perhaps my trick to rooting out that pain was realizing that most of the people I know who were in long-term relationships or were "successful" with women had miserable lives underneath. A guy who used to go to the gym and was attractive to women fell into drugs and used to frequent WhatsApp groups filled with depressed and lonely people. I don't think his "success" with women filled the existential void he also had, even though he didn't realize it, just like me.

Sorry, but that is what we incels call "cope".
It's fine to cope, but what you just said was no different than a poor, struggling person going "Huh, I used to really pray and wish I had more money, but it makes no sense to me to suffer for what I don't have, I might still be broke, but I've seen rich people who fall into drug habits and end up killing themselves, so I don't think having money is all the big of a deal"

It's cope. If you were in his shoes, you'd just be him, but minus the drug problem, and your life would be a thousand times happier for it.
When I see normies still be miserable while having it all, I don't think "Wow, being loved sucks" I think "Wow, those people suck. Imagine having everything and deciding to do dumb shit to ruin your life, couldn't be me."

If god exists, he gave them everything and they still fumbled it. He gave me next to nothing, and yet somehow I don't have the drug problems, or the violent tendencies.

 

[Michelstaedter]

Perhaps in the end, our views on existence, pain, and death will be different.
When I see people who have "everything" and yet still have attitudes, such as hurting someone because of their obvious narcissism, I feel rather disgusted. This often happens with the children of millionaires or wealthy people. However, for people who "have everything" and still feel sad, I feel a kind of compassion.
Regarding the person I mentioned in my example, I felt disgust and contempt for him. Not because he had "everything" or had what "I never had." But because his way of thinking and acting was superficial and unpleasant. At that point, I didn't envy him, nor did I wish to be someone like him.

 

[Bootleg Astolfo]

Alright lads, im off to buy more popcorn and a perrier, dont get too funny before im back !

 

[Michelstaedter]

Alright lads, im off to buy more popcorn and a perrier, dont get too funny before im back !

Is this serious? I mean, talking about depressed guys or girls who want to die for not having a relationship, and in my case, I've experienced it, and trying to discuss whether they should reconsider their stance on CTB, is it funny? Is this the trolling forum? Is it 4chan, Reddit, or another forum where you can troll like you're talking about anything else?

I wasn't going to reply, but since you're back, I don't know what your point is.

P.S. If your goal is to have fun, go ahead. Although there are other forums for that, including Facebook or YouTube, and even other posts on this site that don't discuss anything that's not really related to the topic.

 

[Bootleg Astolfo]

Is this serious? I mean, talking about depressed guys or girls who want to die for not having a relationship, and in my case, I've experienced it, and trying to discuss whether they should reconsider their stance on CTB, is it funny? Is this the trolling forum? Is it 4chan, Reddit, or another forum where you can troll like you're talking about anything else?

I wasn't going to reply, but since you're back, I don't know what your point is.

P.S. If your goal is to have fun, go ahead. Although there are other forums for that, including Facebook or YouTube, and even other posts on this site that don't discuss anything that's not really related to the topic.

I couldnt find perrier, but i have a nice chai tea.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Technically, with prostitution, no one can be an incel.
Only technically.

I wouldn't consider someone who paid to fuck prostitutes not an incel, though. If I paid for Mike Tyson's WBC belt, would that mean anything? Would that make me a boxer? Would that make me a world champion boxer? No. Not at all. I wouldn't even be a title holder. I'd simply have a shiny trinket that means less than nothing.
The entire pain of an incel is being literally unable to be desired or attracted to. I can't consider someone who isn't ugly an incel.

The end goal of an incel isn't even necessarily having sex -- It's just sex is the ultimate proof of attraction, ultimate proof that someone actually can desire you.
If you've have sex without having to pay a hooker, you have your proof that you're not an unlovable, hideous creature, and that there is love out there for you.

If you've ever been loved, you wouldn't know the pain of never having it but seeing everyone else get it.


There's no such thing as a femcel. They don't exist. You admit yourself that even the younger you that would have self-identified as a "femcel" would be no different than, say, an Elliot Rodger (minus the psychoticness that made him kill people)

With that out of the way, I agree, It's simple biology that makes people, especially women, turn their nose up at me when they see someone so hideous.
That's just their natural reaction to my appearance.

Is it not fair that my own natural reaction is to be hateful in return? You hate me, or are at least disgusted by me, simply for how I look. I'm not fat. I'm not out of shape. I'm not unhygienic or messy. I'm simply a hideous looking human being from factors outside of my control.

You can't have it both ways, you know. You can't say It's natural for people to be disgusted by you, but It's not okay for you to naturally hate the world.
I don't advocate for violence, but when you say "It's just our natural instinct to find you repulsive to be around." you should expect every incel who hears that to give in to their natural reaction. That's dangerous. In a nihlistic way, I get that though, but the people who say shit like this aren't nihlistic, they wanna have their cake and eat it too.

Would you truly consider everyone equal then- when it comes to dating? You'd be just as eager to go out with a fat tom boy of a woman with alopecia as you would a thin, attractive woman? You must be a man in a million!

I was refering to people finding me repulsive as much as incels. I find myself repulsive. I wouldn't expect someone to find me attractive!

In terms of ugliness though- I wouldn't hate someone for being ugly! As I've already said- I don't consider myself to be attractive either. I'm more likely to pity them.

However, if they show aggression or resentment then yes- I'd steer clear. That is the real ugliness because it can lead to manipulative, controlling behaviour and violence. I reserve hate for people who've really wronged me though.

I can understand feeling resentful towards society and biology but- individuals? Is it really that they hate us or, that they don't want to sleep with us? I don't hate someone for not wanting to sleep with me and I'd expect the same courtesy. Of course, if they outright bully us then- that's different.

And, I'm not labelling specific people repulsive- that would be cruel. But sure- we still have preferences and sex can be a very special, almost sacred act for some people. It is to me. I wouldn't sleep with someone who I didn't love with all my heart. I'm old fashioned. I'm repulsed at the idea of me having sex with anyone as it happens. Weirdly- even more so if they were really attractive. That's my own issues going on really.

But- it's such a huge expectation to put on someone- to expect them to want to copulate. I suppose I just don't get why that expectation/ entitlement is there to begin with, because I don't have it.

It depends on our views of sex too. I'm such a prude so- I find a lot of ideas around it repulsive. Including sleeping around. Again, it's not to knock what others want to do but, it shouldn't be something that is expected to be given out- like hand shakes! In my view anyway. So really- anyone who suggested it casually- I would find the idea repulsive. They could be absolutely gorgeous and I'd still feel that way.

Of course, if you genuinely feel like you've been treated vastly differently your whole life. By passers by and work colleagues etc. as well as potential mates and, only because of your looks then- you do have my utmost sympathy. That isn't at all fair.

Anger I think is complicated though. So- someone wouldn't become 'repulsive' (for me) unless they kept pushing women on and on- usually for sex- and I have seen that. No matter what they look like- what gives them the right to do that? I'm not talking just casually asking them out here- I mean almost bullying. In which case- sure- I find that repulsive. They've no right to bully people like that or, have expectations on them like that and then get angry when they don't get their way. That isn't respecting that person's right to choose. Not to say you do that.

But, even getting turned down lots. I don't know really. I've never had the guts to ask a guy out because I'd be so sure they would turn me down. I doubt I'd feel angry for them doing something I was expecting anyway. I suppose that's my point. How can a person be angry at someone for doing what they expected? Isn't it because they actually felt entitled to it/ them?

Now I don't identify as a femcel. If you don't believe in the phrase then- someone who isn't considered very attractive by a lot of men. I'm single by choice as much as lack of looks/ pulling power.

And sure- maybe I could have had better chances if I plastered on makeup, wore underwired bras and high heels. I tried all that for a brief period but, I didn't enjoy it. I learnt to value not having to do all that shit! It was actually such a relief when I stopped fancying real life men to be honest.

But then, I'm not sure you can force yourself to stop. That was my solution though- for me. To get rid of the deep desire to begin with. Life's so much calmer without it. Plus, my crushes were crazy limerent ones too so- it was very unpleasant.

Really though, I'm sorry I commented on this thread at all. I had made the decision not to engage on incel threads and, I should have honoured it. I don't want to antagonize people who are already suffering here. So, I will probably take my leave and try to ignore future threads that I may end up triggering others on.

 

[Michelstaedter]

Would you truly consider everyone equal then- when it comes to dating? You'd be just as eager to go out with a fat tom boy of a woman with alopecia as you would a thin, attractive woman? You must be a man in a million!

I was refering to people finding me repulsive as much as incels. I find myself repulsive. I wouldn't expect someone to find me attractive!

In terms of ugliness though- I wouldn't hate someone for being ugly! As I've already said- I don't consider myself to be attractive either. I'm more likely to pity them.

However, if they show aggression or resentment then yes- I'd steer clear. That is the real ugliness because it can lead to manipulative, controlling behaviour and violence. I reserve hate for people who've really wronged me though.

I can understand feeling resentful towards society and biology but- individuals? Is it really that they hate us or, that they don't want to sleep with us? I don't hate someone for not wanting to sleep with me and I'd expect the same courtesy. Of course, if they outright bully us then- that's different.

And, I'm not labelling specific people repulsive- that would be cruel. But sure- we still have preferences and sex can be a very special, almost sacred act for some people. It is to me. I wouldn't sleep with someone who I didn't love with all my heart. I'm old fashioned. I'm repulsed at the idea of me having sex with anyone as it happens. Weirdly- even more so if they were really attractive. That's my own issues going on really.

But- it's such a huge expectation to put on someone- to expect them to want to copulate. I suppose I just don't get why that expectation/ entitlement is there to begin with, because I don't have it.

It depends on our views of sex too. I'm such a prude so- I find a lot of ideas around it repulsive. Including sleeping around. Again, it's not to knock what others want to do but, it shouldn't be something that is expected to be given out- like hand shakes! In my view anyway. So really- anyone who suggested it casually- I would find the idea repulsive. They could be absolutely gorgeous and I'd still feel that way.

Of course, if you genuinely feel like you've been treated vastly differently your whole life. By passers by and work colleagues etc. as well as potential mates and, only because of your looks then- you do have my utmost sympathy. That isn't at all fair.

Anger I think is complicated though. So- someone wouldn't become 'repulsive' (for me) unless they kept pushing women on and on- usually for sex- and I have seen that. No matter what they look like- what gives them the right to do that? I'm not talking just casually asking them out here- I mean almost bullying. In which case- sure- I find that repulsive. They've no right to bully people like that or, have expectations on them like that and then get angry when they don't get their way. That isn't respecting that person's right to choose. Not to say you do that.

But, even getting turned down lots. I don't know really. I've never had the guts to ask a guy out because I'd be so sure they would turn me down. I doubt I'd feel angry for them doing something I was expecting anyway. I suppose that's my point. How can a person be angry at someone for doing what they expected? Isn't it because they actually felt entitled to it/ them?

Now I don't identify as a femcel. If you don't believe in the phrase then- someone who isn't considered very attractive by a lot of men. I'm single by choice as much as lack of looks/ pulling power.

And sure- maybe I could have had better chances if I plastered on makeup, wore underwired bras and high heels. I tried all that for a brief period but, I didn't enjoy it. I learnt to value not having to do all that shit! It was actually such a relief when I stopped fancying real life men to be honest.

But then, I'm not sure you can force yourself to stop. That was my solution though- for me. To get rid of the deep desire to begin with. Life's so much calmer without it. Plus, my crushes were crazy limerent ones too so- it was very unpleasant.

Really though, I'm sorry I commented on this thread at all. I had made the decision not to engage on incel threads and, I should have honoured it. I don't want to antagonize people who are already suffering here. So, I will probably take my leave and try to ignore future threads that I may end up triggering others on.

I don't feel like it was a waste of you participating in this thread. In fact, even if you're a woman, a femcel, or whatever, it's always important to me to read stories that express how disgusting life in society is. In fact, I agree if you feel disgusted by those who go after women just to have sex with them. I somehow felt that repulsion from some of the guys I met.

I can understand the position of the guy you responded to, and yours, at least from my limited perspective of having experienced rejection, having resigned myself to a relationship, among other things you've said. I'm sorry if participating in these threads makes you uncomfortable, but I personally always appreciate respectful responses and stories that corroborate my ideas about social relationships and human interaction.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't feel like it was a waste of you participating in this thread. In fact, even if you're a woman, a femcel, or whatever, it's always important to me to read stories that express how disgusting life in society is. In fact, I agree if you feel disgusted by those who go after women just to have sex with them. I somehow felt that repulsion from some of the guys I met.

I can understand the position of the guy you responded to, and yours, at least from my limited perspective of having experienced rejection, having resigned myself to a relationship, among other things you've said. I'm sorry if participating in these threads makes you uncomfortable, but I personally always appreciate respectful responses and stories that corroborate my ideas about social relationships and human interaction.

Thank you. And I appreciate people who introspect and take responsibilty where appropriate. It's weird because sometimes, when I have read threads by self confessed incels, I've thought- this guy has lots of really good qualities. It's sad if women aren't picking up on them.

But yeah- I know what you mean. I think the frustration and deep unhappiness/ loneliness is absolutely understandable. I also think that years of feeling persecuted for something we had no control over is bound to make a person bitter.

The trouble I find is- it's a bit like a chicken and egg set up. Maybe there's cause for people to feel angry but that in itself makes them less pleasant to be around and interact with. I sometimes wonder how much of it is the vibes we send off to others.

A friend pointed out that I used to give off prickly, cynical vibes to men. That was down to mistrust and a kind of self defence mechanism I think. The fear they might taunt or simply feel disgusted by me. So- if I was slightly cold/ mistrustful towards them- it would show them I was less likely to be bothered by what I believed would be their inevitable repulsed reaction.

So- I think that could be going on sometimes too- the energy we bring ourselves. But, a chip on the shoulder- even if it's justified, isn't appealing either- unfortunately.

I tend to find I get triggered though and in turn, trigger others. Which isn't what I come here for. Not to rub salt in anyone's wound.

It's unfortunate really that 'incel' has such negative connotations because, not all are angry. You don't seem angry with people. More, hurt by the whole system. That does seem the fairer response- to me. Because it acknowledges that we are all pawns in this f*cked up game. That women are acting on influences just the same as men are. They aren't necessarily (well, hopefully not) deliberately persecuting men. Also, just the acknowledgement that both genders suffer.

I guess it's a combination of what I tend to see as entitlement plus the belittlement that triggers me though.

So- the entitlement to love and sex where that can almost come down to luck- if we happen to find a person that sees enough value in us. Maybe it's frustrating to see other guys scoring all over the place but again- my own (prudish) bias makes me see that as a meat market. Not that I blame people for participating but, no one should feel that they should have to. Or that they owe anyone anything beyond politeness.

Sure, it would be good if we could see beyond appearance and wealth. Some people obviously can though. There are plenty of not very attractive people of both genders who have partners. Why do we even want to be with someone so fixated on appearance anyway? That kind of puzzles me.

But yeah- the whole- you're lot in life is easier because you're a woman doesn't engender feelings of kindness in return either. I don't really care if they think they are factually correct. Ultimately, they've never lived as a woman. We've never lived as a man. We simply won't know. I much prefer the understanding that both genders suffer in their own ways. So, I appreciate you trying to see it from multiple perspectives. I do truly hope that you do find someone or, they find you. Sounds to me like you have a lot to give.

 

[Michelstaedter]

I really appreciate your words; in fact, I have nothing more to add...

If anything, I can say it honestly, as I've said to myself, whether in the mirror, alone, or to other people. I'm resigned. I won't find a girlfriend, I'm not interested (even though I still have a strong sex drive), and even though the biological aspect is strong, my desire to die and "go" with my beloved rabbits (pets who died) is my greatest dream right now.
Again, thank you for your words.

 

[Bronzehawkattack]

nor did I wish to be someone like him.

It's not that I want to be someone like him.
It's that I'm envious that he has something that he lets go to waste, that I'd make better use of.

Would you truly consider everyone equal then- when it comes to dating? You'd be just as eager to go out with a fat tom boy of a woman with alopecia as you would a thin, attractive woman? You must be a man in a million!

I was refering to people finding me repulsive as much as incels. I find myself repulsive. I wouldn't expect someone to find me attractive!

In terms of ugliness though- I wouldn't hate someone for being ugly! As I've already said- I don't consider myself to be attractive either. I'm more likely to pity them.

However, if they show aggression or resentment then yes- I'd steer clear. That is the real ugliness because it can lead to manipulative, controlling behaviour and violence. I reserve hate for people who've really wronged me though.

I can understand feeling resentful towards society and biology but- individuals? Is it really that they hate us or, that they don't want to sleep with us? I don't hate someone for not wanting to sleep with me and I'd expect the same courtesy. Of course, if they outright bully us then- that's different.

And, I'm not labelling specific people repulsive- that would be cruel. But sure- we still have preferences and sex can be a very special, almost sacred act for some people. It is to me. I wouldn't sleep with someone who I didn't love with all my heart. I'm old fashioned. I'm repulsed at the idea of me having sex with anyone as it happens. Weirdly- even more so if they were really attractive. That's my own issues going on really.

But- it's such a huge expectation to put on someone- to expect them to want to copulate. I suppose I just don't get why that expectation/ entitlement is there to begin with, because I don't have it.

It depends on our views of sex too. I'm such a prude so- I find a lot of ideas around it repulsive. Including sleeping around. Again, it's not to knock what others want to do but, it shouldn't be something that is expected to be given out- like hand shakes! In my view anyway. So really- anyone who suggested it casually- I would find the idea repulsive. They could be absolutely gorgeous and I'd still feel that way.

Of course, if you genuinely feel like you've been treated vastly differently your whole life. By passers by and work colleagues etc. as well as potential mates and, only because of your looks then- you do have my utmost sympathy. That isn't at all fair.

Anger I think is complicated though. So- someone wouldn't become 'repulsive' (for me) unless they kept pushing women on and on- usually for sex- and I have seen that. No matter what they look like- what gives them the right to do that? I'm not talking just casually asking them out here- I mean almost bullying. In which case- sure- I find that repulsive. They've no right to bully people like that or, have expectations on them like that and then get angry when they don't get their way. That isn't respecting that person's right to choose. Not to say you do that.

But, even getting turned down lots. I don't know really. I've never had the guts to ask a guy out because I'd be so sure they would turn me down. I doubt I'd feel angry for them doing something I was expecting anyway. I suppose that's my point. How can a person be angry at someone for doing what they expected? Isn't it because they actually felt entitled to it/ them?

Now I don't identify as a femcel. If you don't believe in the phrase then- someone who isn't considered very attractive by a lot of men. I'm single by choice as much as lack of looks/ pulling power.

And sure- maybe I could have had better chances if I plastered on makeup, wore underwired bras and high heels. I tried all that for a brief period but, I didn't enjoy it. I learnt to value not having to do all that shit! It was actually such a relief when I stopped fancying real life men to be honest.

But then, I'm not sure you can force yourself to stop. That was my solution though- for me. To get rid of the deep desire to begin with. Life's so much calmer without it. Plus, my crushes were crazy limerent ones too so- it was very unpleasant.

Really though, I'm sorry I commented on this thread at all. I had made the decision not to engage on incel threads and, I should have honoured it. I don't want to antagonize people who are already suffering here. So, I will probably take my leave and try to ignore future threads that I may end up triggering others on.

Let's talk about biases and sexist standards for a moment.
I notice that the only way for you to conjure up a woman who is "ugly" is for you to make them obese, boyish in style, and possibly even a bit unhygienic given your use of tomboy. Do I hate this theoretical person? No. I wouldn't do any of the things women and girls have done to me throughout my life. I'd never call someone like this ugly intentionally with them present. I'd never go "Ewwww" if someone joked about me even talking to them. I wouldn't look down at them like human garbage or tell them something mean like "Wow, you looked better with a mask on..."

Yet women do that to ugly men, even an ugly man who isn't the creator of his own appearance. I didn't make myself ugly. I didn't make myself bald. I didn't make my self slightly deformed. I didn't give myself acne.
And yet, the only way for you to attempt to conjure up my looksmatch, is to make her fat (a choice) and dress and style herself like a boy (a choice) when I'm heterosexual. She created her appearance.

Your comment once again highlights why femcels can't exist.
You've never asked a guy out, yet you've still been in relationships.
You don't want to dress girly or whatever. If I started dressing like a woman, you think I'd have a right to complain heterosexual women don't want me?

Whenever people tell incels not to be angry, it always comes across as, like I said before, wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
You just want them to shut up, to stop bothering you. It's an annoyance. Too bad.

I'm going to complain because you're not entitled to my silence and, like for any human, it feels good to vent and bitch and moan, and ultimately, to speak my truth.
I don't care how that makes people feel, because people don't give a god damn how I feel. How can you expect me to care about how you feel when you don't care how I feel? That's the silliness that makes incels chuckle at the absurdity.

People won't even tolerate incel venting because It annoys them, but they don't have to live the incel experience, and they don't care how it feels to live it, they just want us to shut up, not taking into consideration how we feel everyday, but then get mad that we won't take into consideration how they feel when they hear our vent.
It's just such blatant selfishness, but what makes it more infuriating, is that the selfish people think they're righteous.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's not that I want to be someone like him.
It's that I'm envious that he has something that he lets go to waste, that I'd make better use of.



Let's talk about biases and sexist standards for a moment.
I notice that the only way for you to conjure up a woman who is "ugly" is for you to make them obese, boyish in style, and possibly even a bit unhygienic given your use of tomboy. Do I hate this theoretical person? No. I wouldn't do any of the things women and girls have done to me throughout my life. I'd never call someone like this ugly intentionally with them present. I'd never go "Ewwww" if someone joked about me even talking to them. I wouldn't look down at them like human garbage or tell them something mean like "Wow, you looked better with a mask on..."

Yet women do that to ugly men, even an ugly man who isn't the creator of his own appearance. I didn't make myself ugly. I didn't make myself bald. I didn't make my self slightly deformed. I didn't give myself acne.
And yet, the only way for you to attempt to conjure up my looksmatch, is to make her fat (a choice) and dress and style herself like a boy (a choice) when I'm heterosexual. She created her appearance.

Your comment once again highlights why femcels can't exist.
You've never asked a guy out, yet you've still been in relationships.
You don't want to dress girly or whatever. If I started dressing like a woman, you think I'd have a right to complain heterosexual women don't want me?

Whenever people tell incels not to be angry, it always comes across as, like I said before, wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
You just want them to shut up, to stop bothering you. It's an annoyance. Too bad.

I'm going to complain because you're not entitled to my silence and, like for any human, it feels good to vent and bitch and moan, and ultimately, to speak my truth.
I don't care how that makes people feel, because people don't give a god damn how I feel. How can you expect me to care about how you feel when you don't care how I feel? That's the silliness that makes incels chuckle at the absurdity.

People won't even tolerate incel venting because It annoys them, but they don't have to live the incel experience, and they don't care how it feels to live it, they just want us to shut up, not taking into consideration how we feel everyday, but then get mad that we won't take into consideration how they feel when they hear our vent.
It's just such blatant selfishness, but what makes it more infuriating, is that the selfish people think they're righteous.

I mentioned alopecia too because I thought you would likely pick up on what you (rightly) claim are lifestyle choices (to an extent) in terms of tom boyishness and obesity. Alopecia (hair loss) isn't a choice.

Although- choice is kind of an issue in itself. Tom boys aren't necessarily unhygenic- as I understand them. They're just more into masculine things. So- they're not all delicate, dainty, pretty, sexy- by the more common appreciation.

Why are they like that though? Are you sure it's simply choice? Maybe they have more testosterone floating about. Should they think it's fair that they need to change their nature to appeal to a wider demographic of men? Should they expect all men to appreciate them? It's kind of unrealistic because- for whatever reason- they aren't complying with what is considered by the majority to be attractive.

It's kind of more of a choice perhaps. Not one I fancied making. I was and am a tom boy. Not asking for pity here. Just throwing up ideas. Also not saying that all men despise tom boys. Same as not all women despise bald men or those with deformities. There will be both in happy relationships out there- so- how did they do it? What do they have that compensates?

Obesity can likely be a symptom of other shit going on in someone's life. But fine, if you want to judge on that. It is something we could do something about- ultimately. Presumably guys can do certain things to compensate too. Sounds like you do if your a gym goer.

I don't believe I've bullied people about their looks as much as they've bullied me. I barely talked to men, let alone to insult them!

I've never been in a relationship. Not sure why you assumed I have. I'll die a virgin at 45+ but- I'm actually ok with that now. So- I'm not a femcel now. I also didn't claim I absolutely was one when I was young. More that it's a line of thought I would have identified with. Again- you're welcome to belittle that. Say I wasn't a true femcel. That the term doesn't exist. That men have it worse etc.

You're also wrong. I do feel sympathy for you. I feel sympathy for all people here. If whatever is bothering them is enough to make them suicidal- that's awful. But sure- I don't much enjoy hearing that my own lived experiences aren't valid in one way or another. Anymore than you do.

But then- I expect that's always going to be there. The battle of the sexes has gone on for decades. Each resenting the other for having things easier. Which is why I should stay off of incel threads really. I likely do have an unfair bias to an extent.

I suppose that's what I admire so much about the creator of this thread though. He is willing to take a step back to try and understand why all people feel the way they do. Where they are coming from.

 

[Bronzehawkattack]

I mentioned alopecia too because I thought you would likely pick up on what you (rightly) claim are lifestyle choices (to an extent) in terms of tom boyishness and obesity. Alopecia (hair loss) isn't a choice.

Although- choice is kind of an issue in itself. Tom boys aren't necessarily unhygenic- as I understand them. They're just more into masculine things. So- they're not all delicate, dainty, pretty, sexy- by the more common appreciation.

Why are they like that though? Are you sure it's simply choice? Maybe they have more testosterone floating about. Should they think it's fair that they need to change their nature to appeal to a wider demographic of men? Should they expect all men to appreciate them? It's kind of unrealistic because- for whatever reason- they aren't complying with what is considered by the majority to be attractive.

It's kind of more of a choice perhaps. Not one I fancied making. I was and am a tom boy. Not asking for pity here. Just throwing up ideas. Also not saying that all men despise tom boys. Same as not all women despise bald men or those with deformities. There will be both in happy relationships out there- so- how did they do it? What do they have that compensates?

Obesity can likely be a symptom of other shit going on in someone's life. But fine, if you want to judge on that. It is something we could do something about- ultimately. Presumably guys can do certain things to compensate too. Sounds like you do if your a gym goer.

I don't believe I've bullied people about their looks as much as they've bullied me. I barely talked to men, let alone to insult them!

I've never been in a relationship. Not sure why you assumed I have. I'll die a virgin at 45+ but- I'm actually ok with that now. So- I'm not a femcel now. I also didn't claim I absolutely was one when I was young. More that it's a line of thought I would have identified with. Again- you're welcome to belittle that. Say I wasn't a true femcel. That the term doesn't exist. That men have it worse etc.

You're also wrong. I do feel sympathy for you. I feel sympathy for all people here. If whatever is bothering them is enough to make them suicidal- that's awful. But sure- I don't much enjoy hearing that my own lived experiences aren't valid in one way or another. Anymore than you do.

But then- I expect that's always going to be there. The battle of the sexes has gone on for decades. Each resenting the other for having things easier. Which is why I should stay off of incel threads really. I likely do have an unfair bias to an extent.

I suppose that's what I admire so much about the creator of this thread though. He is willing to take a step back to try and understand why all people feel the way they do. Where they are coming from.

When I say obesity and tomboyishness is a choice, I'm setting the same standards for women, as society sets for me and other incels in the self-improvement we need to do to supposedly be ready for a relationship.

Sure, a fat person might not want to be fat, life is harsh and it can be difficult to get that under control with other factors in the way.
But as a man, I'm told that I'm fucking disgusting if I were to think about even entering a relationship if I not only wasn't slim, but also in great shape. I have no right to complain until then, because I didn't do everything I could.

Same for how you present yourself. Again, for men, if you are an incel, people don't accept your current fashion sense or style, they tell you to change yourself to be more appealing -- otherwise you hear: "This is why you're incel, sweety."
No one ever considers "is it fair" for a man as you mentioned in regards to tomboys not wanting to change their behavior. We don't get that consideration at all, we're just told to change because if we don't, It's fact that we will die alone (though what they fail to mention, is that if you're ugly women will hate you no matter how much you try so you'll die alone anyway)

That's part of what forms the extreme bitterness. You can do everything they tell you to, and still end up alone. You think they're giving you advice in good faith, and you follow it in good faith, but still, you end up alone, miserable, and unwanted.
As a woman you wouldn't get that, because that's not how you're treated. You're told someone should love you for who you are, and as a woman, that's true. Men will flock to you no matter what. Tomboyish or fat, it doesn't matter. Maybe not immediately in real life everywhere you go, but any place where romance is expected, or hell, just ask anywhere online, and you'll have the men coming to you in droves.

Men are scrutinized heavily for what they can provide while also being what they look like and how they act.
Non-manosphere types like the perpetuate the myth that there are higher standards for women in terms of looks, but even that's patently untrue, as any modern study on the subject shows. But the truth isn't so palatable for these people, women have it harder in every way and must be coddled, men must be scrutinized and told to man up and get better or otherwise get out.

My bad, I thought you had mentioned being in relationships, but I clearly mistaken, I must have conflated you with another back and forth on here I was in.

You definitely do have a bias. The world is far kinder to you because you are a woman. Very few people would ever mock you for being a 45+ year old virgin as a woman.

 

[Forever Sleep]

When I say obesity and tomboyishness is a choice, I'm setting the same standards for women, as society sets for me and other incels in the self-improvement we need to do to supposedly be ready for a relationship.

Sure, a fat person might not want to be fat, life is harsh and it can be difficult to get that under control with other factors in the way.
But as a man, I'm told that I'm fucking disgusting if I were to think about even entering a relationship if I not only wasn't slim, but also in great shape. I have no right to complain until then, because I didn't do everything I could.

Same for how you present yourself. Again, for men, if you are an incel, people don't accept your current fashion sense or style, they tell you to change yourself to be more appealing -- otherwise you hear: "This is why you're incel, sweety."
No one ever considers "is it fair" for a man as you mentioned in regards to tomboys not wanting to change their behavior. We don't get that consideration at all, we're just told to change because if we don't, It's fact that we will die alone (though what they fail to mention, is that if you're ugly women will hate you no matter how much you try so you'll die alone anyway)

That's part of what forms the extreme bitterness. You can do everything they tell you to, and still end up alone. You think they're giving you advice in good faith, and you follow it in good faith, but still, you end up alone, miserable, and unwanted.
As a woman you wouldn't get that, because that's not how you're treated. You're told someone should love you for who you are, and as a woman, that's true. Men will flock to you no matter what. Tomboyish or fat, it doesn't matter. Maybe not immediately in real life everywhere you go, but any place where romance is expected, or hell, just ask anywhere online, and you'll have the men coming to you in droves.

Men are scrutinized heavily for what they can provide while also being what they look like and how they act.
Non-manosphere types like the perpetuate the myth that there are higher standards for women in terms of looks, but even that's patently untrue, as any modern study on the subject shows. But the truth isn't so palatable for these people, women have it harder in every way and must be coddled, men must be scrutinized and told to man up and get better or otherwise get out.

My bad, I thought you had mentioned being in relationships, but I clearly mistaken, I must have conflated you with another back and forth on here I was in.

You definitely do have a bias. The world is far kinder to you because you are a woman. Very few people would ever mock you for being a 45+ year old virgin as a woman.

I wouldn't expect to attract a man in my current state. When I was younger- for a while anyway, I put in masses of effort- losing over 5 stone, wearing make up. Making an effort with what I wore. In truth- it was to attract a particular guy. So sure- I couldn't say I was a femcel. Maybe if I'd gone to a bar, I could have found some random guy to give me one. I didn't want that! Anymore than you probably would!

I find it weird that people should think that should be a comfort. That someone out there would be willing to hump you. Doesn't matter what you think about them. Bear in mind- that a guy that isn't picky and sticks it anywhere he can could likely be carrying STD's. But- if that's what some people want- go for it- I guess.

I find the whole (supposedly) non picky thing troubling in its own way though. If men truly are so undiscerning- what is it they are actually looking for? A bunch of holes and someone to clean their house? Why aren't they more picky? Why do so many relationships become violent? Maybe because the people involved should have been more picky rather than less.

But sure- I get your frustration. You're told to jump through all these hoops of fire. You're told to approach women then, when you do- they hate you for it. So- I do actually sympathise with men. I have a lot of sympathy for men actually- in other ways too. I think women emasculate men a lot but, they also expect them to be strong. I think men end up getting a lot of mixed messages about who they need to be.

I'm not willing to carry on competing in a pain olympics though. I accept you have been treated particularly badly and whether or not you choose to believe it, I feel sad that that happened. But, I don't have the patience to hear generalities about what it's like to be a woman- any woman. And definitely not me- you have no clue!

I will say I probably have got off lightly because I tend to avoid people- full stop. But, some women suffer terrible attrocities. I'd argue that you have your own bias too but that seems pointless as likely both of us won't budge now.

I don't care if people mock me for being a virgin. Although, I wouldn't scream it from the rooftops! I have been mocked for it. I probably wouldn't take great offence at being mocked for being single. I wouldn't in turn mock guys for it either.

Culturally though- maybe you have a point. I'd hazard a guess- it's maybe considered more shameful for a guy to be a virgin at an old age but, it's maybe more shameful for a woman to be single. Spinster vs. Eligible batchelor.

Of course- I'm not sure when it comes to trying to start a relationship. Women may well be suspicious of men who have always been single. Possibly vice versa too.

Really though- why wouldn't we all be suspicious of one another? Google reckons 1 in 5 people experience domestic violence during their lifetime. The breakdown being 1 in 4 women and, 1 in 6- 7 men. Not to say less attractive people are more prone to violence but anger and resentment aren't a good start. Would that just go away in a relationship or, would it come out in other ways? Fear that the partner may stray, leading to possessiveness, coercive behaviour. Even violence. Anger is going to be a red flag for a lot of women.