Story i was touched without consent, and i can’t get the feeling off my body

[SexyIncél]

hi @absurdtimeline :) i hope your day is going well.

Hey @90starve! It started out rough but is going oddly well :P

Well, Whale_bones has now solved the problem very effectively! So I no longer have reason to be in conflict. She doesn't care about my gratitude/respect, but I fully offer it. Furthermore, since I've outed myself as fundamentally disagreeing with your frame, you're unlikely to desire/benefit from my further interventions. If, in the future, I accidentally offer you my opinion, please kindly remind me who you are so I can excuse myself

Please feel free to stop reading. For those munching on popcorn, morbidly entertained by sasu slapfights, this spoiler contains brief notes on my perspective:

Spoiler: some notes

I treat all these confrontations as case studies. So a friend read a draft of my earlier comment to Whale_bones. She correctly said I've stopped helping the OP — breaking an important sasu principle. The OP can't help be dismayed by the derailment into a flamewar. Furthermore, I signal a break from her "frame" by saying: "Much about this story is odd."

(She also had some critical feedback about the OP, but she's a very critical thinker who dissects everyone. No point repeating it here)

She's of course right; I exited the OP's frame after reprioritizing Androsh's problem. But here's the problem I faced: I took time out of my personal life to do emotional labor. And tried to nicely ask people to make my life easier by easing up on Andarosh. Since this request was rejected, I decided — right or wrong — to escalate

Obviously, this can be harmful to those I'm escalating against

Whale_bones is correct: I veered offtopic. To be more precise, I had another item on my evil agenda: undermining her framing by presenting a competing framing of anti-abuse work. In this, I'm communicating to some imagined one or two readers who might find this useful

Am I fundamentally wrong? Well, here's the main possibilities on a suicide forum founded by 2 incels:

1. I'm stubbornly wrong
2. they're stubbornly wrong
3. we're all stubbornly wrong

Obviously, if I'm stubbornly wrong, it seems I lack the metacognition to do otherwise. So I must continue projecting on to them my stubborn wrongness, and leave it to the mods to intervene if I step over the line

Anyway, others can feel free to tear apart my analysis

[Edit: I didn't see foxdieΩ's use of spoilers before I sent this! Jinx]

 

[just_so_done]

First off @90starve I'm sorry how much this post has veered off when it was about the traumatic experience you went through, the inaction and let down of your dad and the toxic work environment. You deserved for this to be about support and validation. While i tried to show kindness to Andarosh for acknowledging his errors and taking responsibility, this whole thing has spiralled out of control. I think its great that absurdwizard is taking their own time to talk about this with him privately but it not appropriate to continue to have this convo here and fight with members. Let them do their work somewhere else, not on this thread.

When you've been touched inappropriately, had disgusting slurs said to you, been drugged, been raped before, these type of responses are not helpful. This should have been a safe thread, instead it's been exhausting, and to trivialize it to "sasu slapfights" and a form of entertainment (fucking popcorn?!) is just hurtful and unhelpful. I'm sorrry, I'm just so fucking tired of everything. Please if you disagree with anything i just wrote please just keep it to yourself, unless you take enjoyment in pushing ppl over the edge than by all means go ahead because that ledge looks better and better.

 

[SexyIncél]

While i tried to show kindness to Andarosh for acknowledging his errors and taking responsibility, this whole thing has spiralled out of control. I think its great that absurdwizard is taking their own time to talk about this with him privately but it not appropriate to continue to have this convo here and fight with members. Let them do their work somewhere else, not on this thread.

Oh no worries, absurdwizard has no desire to disagree with anyone further. The OP is back in control & centered. No one else is being pushed to ctb. Please carry on!

 

[90starve]

Sorry for what happened to you, it's so casually cruel and unfair and far too common. I will echo what a lot others have said in here, your feelings are valid and you deserve to have your boundaries respected at all times. It is a cultural problem. It's endemic sadly. I'm sorry you and all women have to deal with this shit honestly.

Spoiler: Potential digression but relevant

This thread has brought up an interesting discussion on the dynamics between victims, perpetrators and witnesses when specifically discussing sexual violence. Which Indeed happened here. The victims responsibility is to heal if they are able, they deserve their dignity and self esteem. But they bear no responsibility to the perpetrator. Perpetrators need to take accountability, show remorse and a willingness to learn and change. More importantly they need to listen to more women. Witnesses need to speak up more. I recognize this in myself and am I trying to learn more as I age. These are views I've cultivated over time but I know I still have blind spots.

I think it's important for men to be aware of their position in this world, which is undeniably misogynistic. I've never had a woman tell me that I've done something like this and I would attest to my own Innocence. I don't think I've ever put my hands on someone who did not consent as far as I can recall. I don't take this as a point of pride, I take it as a reminder of constant vigilance, I have to always listen and learn because our society is geared towards allowing me freer reign in these contexts. Just because no one has ever told me does not mean I am innocent, I acknowledge this. I hold some responsibility for cultural misogyny just by the simple fact I am male. I don't even have agree to or appreciate these benefits to receive them. Men don't always realize the ease with which we move through this world. It's hard, you don't know what you don't know, but you can learn. And the onus is on us to learn.

I've also gained the trust of women over time who have told me horrifying stories that at first surprised me but over time just became the default. I can still be shocked and horrified but never surprised anymore. Every woman in your life has a story like this, that's another thing I've learned. Every. Single. One. Stories of being followed, harrassed, and worse. People will put their hands on women with such ease in our culture. Not just by men but everyone. This is like some weird foundational form of misogyny that I've been noticing more and more.

I see women and (especially victims) who are disempowered on the daily, now that I've trained myself to see them. How do we decide who gets sent home early from work (losing part of their wages) when our incompetent management fails to plan more then a day ahead? Always women and the marginalized. Who are paid less at work? Whose performance is most scrutinized?These are easy and obvious examples I can that take little effort for me to notice and acknowledge from my own life. Now I am not perfect, I don't speak up every time. There's always room for being a better person.

I think ultimately men need to take accountability and have a willingness to listen and learn. And some humility can go a long way.

P.S.

If you want to discuss this further make a new thread (unless OP wants to). I have no interest in further derailing this thread but I think it might good for men who read this thread to see this.

Sorry for the tangent.

thankyou so much for your tangent! its very helpful for me to have a male perspective on this matter, as it's not something i often receive when discussing SA. you've also just made some excellent points <3

First off @90starve I'm sorry how much this post has veered off when it was about the traumatic experience you went through, the inaction and let down of your dad and the toxic work environment. You deserved for this to be about support and validation. While i tried to show kindness to Andarosh for acknowledging his errors and taking responsibility, this whole thing has spiralled out of control. I think its great that absurdwizard is taking their own time to talk about this with him privately but it not appropriate to continue to have this convo here and fight with members. Let them do their work somewhere else, not on this thread.

When you've been touched inappropriately, had disgusting slurs said to you, been drugged, been raped before, these type of responses are not helpful. This should have been a safe thread, instead it's been exhausting, and to trivialize it to "sasu slapfights" and a form of entertainment (fucking popcorn?!) is just hurtful and unhelpful. I'm sorrry, I'm just so fucking tired of everything. Please if you disagree with anything i just wrote please just keep it to yourself, unless you take enjoyment in pushing ppl over the edge than by all means go ahead because that ledge looks better and better.

thankyou for your take on this <3 i agree, threads like this should always be a safe space, and unfortunately the conversation got massively derailed - although it had become quite toxic, i think that it has served everybody involved well. i believe most of us will have come away from this with an expanded knowledge and awareness of the problem i originally wrote about :)

i hope your day is going well <3

 

[whatevs]

It's very sad how you were unable to defend yourself and then you have to witness the unwillingness of those around you to do something about it but what they find easiest to ease any social discomfort. I believe you were assaulted basically if he grabbed you for 3 seconds, it wasn't an accident. I second the advice of leaving that job whenever is feasible given the reactions by coworkers.

Your father's reaction was pathetic in particular. He probably sensed it "wasn't fine" for you.

I'm also interested in leaving an opinion regarding the understandably aggravating post by a (light) sexual offender here. It seems suicidal people tend to be very self centered. I see it all the time and I do it myself: we can't wait to make a thread about ourselves. Perhaps psychological insight that is useful for those that are considering trying not to kill themselves. Maybe excusable because intense suffering clouds everything that is not it.

 

[Whale_bones]

Oh no worries, absurdwizard has no desire to disagree with anyone further. The OP is back in control & centered. No one else is being pushed to ctb. Please carry on!

Saying an assaulter is responsible for a sexual assault they committed is not pushing anyone to CTB. Refusing to accept alcohol, feelings, or anything else as an excuse or justification for sexual assault is not pushing anyone to CTB.

I've literally brought the information to you that shows that the use of excuses and justifications is a significant indicator of the likelihood that someone will re-offend. It wasn't my responsibility to bring that information to you, because it's a basic, well-known fact about SA that you would find out if you had any intention to learn about the topic at all. Yet when I put the research paper in front of you, requiring you to expend zero effort except for to read it, you completely ignored it. You've continued on with this ridiculous and harmful claim that I'm actually pushing someone to kill themselves, when I've shown you that my firm stance against justifications is backed up by all known research on the subject.

You've shown no willingness to learn even the basics about sexual assault, yet you're determined to speak on it. This isn't a fun, lighthearted game for victims, and contrary to your needless personal insults and value judgments throughout this thread, victims regularly display extraordinary strength, tenacity and willpower in order to survive and thrive. Find a different subject to ponder on and entertain yourself with, this isn't here for you to "analyze" as if it's some theoretical quandary that doesn't affect women's daily lives.

Sorry for what happened to you, it's so casually cruel and unfair and far too common. I will echo what a lot others have said in here, your feelings are valid and you deserve to have your boundaries respected at all times. It is a cultural problem. It's endemic sadly. I'm sorry you and all women have to deal with this shit honestly.

Spoiler: Potential digression but relevant

This thread has brought up an interesting discussion on the dynamics between victims, perpetrators and witnesses when specifically discussing sexual violence. Which Indeed happened here. The victims responsibility is to heal if they are able, they deserve their dignity and self esteem. But they bear no responsibility to the perpetrator. Perpetrators need to take accountability, show remorse and a willingness to learn and change. More importantly they need to listen to more women. Witnesses need to speak up more. I recognize this in myself and am I trying to learn more as I age. These are views I've cultivated over time but I know I still have blind spots.

I think it's important for men to be aware of their position in this world, which is undeniably misogynistic. I've never had a woman tell me that I've done something like this and I would attest to my own Innocence. I don't think I've ever put my hands on someone who did not consent as far as I can recall. I don't take this as a point of pride, I take it as a reminder of constant vigilance, I have to always listen and learn because our society is geared towards allowing me freer reign in these contexts. Just because no one has ever told me does not mean I am innocent, I acknowledge this. I hold some responsibility for cultural misogyny just by the simple fact I am male. I don't even have agree to or appreciate these benefits to receive them. Men don't always realize the ease with which we move through this world. It's hard, you don't know what you don't know, but you can learn. And the onus is on us to learn.

I've also gained the trust of women over time who have told me horrifying stories that at first surprised me but over time just became the default. I can still be shocked and horrified but never surprised anymore. Every woman in your life has a story like this, that's another thing I've learned. Every. Single. One. Stories of being followed, harrassed, and worse. People will put their hands on women with such ease in our culture. Not just by men but everyone. This is like some weird foundational form of misogyny that I've been noticing more and more.

I see women and (especially victims) who are disempowered on the daily, now that I've trained myself to see them. How do we decide who gets sent home early from work (losing part of their wages) when our incompetent management fails to plan more then a day ahead? Always women and the marginalized. Who are paid less at work? Whose performance is most scrutinized?These are easy and obvious examples I can that take little effort for me to notice and acknowledge from my own life. Now I am not perfect, I don't speak up every time. There's always room for being a better person.

I think ultimately men need to take accountability and have a willingness to listen and learn. And some humility can go a long way.

P.S.

If you want to discuss this further make a new thread (unless OP wants to). I have no interest in further derailing this thread but I think it might good for men who read this thread to see this.

Sorry for the tangent.

Thank you for this comment, foxdie; it really does make a difference when men speak up, and I'm regularly heartened when I see good men doing the right thing. Not with the aim of getting a pat on the back or to be looked at as a hero, but because they see women as human beings who are worthy of equal respect and consideration. It's such a breath of fresh air to be around men who treat women as equals, and it makes every interaction so much more relaxed, fun, and just natural, when you don't have to worry that this person will treat you so differently just because you're a woman, and you can just interact with them person-to-person. It makes the world better for women AND men, both.

I think often it makes a big difference if a man speaks up about these topics, because he already has fellow men listening to him, and he might be able to plant the seed that causes them to look in to it more/learn about it more. I'm really encouraged when I see men who just live their daily lives, but support and respect women when it comes up. Even if it seems like small things, it makes a really big difference, because they model the way to interact with women and other men around them can see how easy/natural it is. That real respect and considering women equals extends to bigger things. So thank you for your input, I agree that a further discussion could be better started in a new thread, but I wanted to reply and acknowledge the value of your input here!

 

[SexyIncél]

Hey, thanks for the feedback @Whale_bones! If that's all, I think the OP signaled a desire to move the spotlight off me/Andarosh, and center her irl problems again? Or did I misunderstand her?

She'll be happy to know I'll use this saved time to help people irl further. In this thread, I've already laid out many principles my friends and I have demonstrated (through experimentation) to help women avoid some abuser ever laying another FUCKING DIRTY... well, on them. (Ahem, I got heated. :)

If one anti-suffering sasu ninja will incorporate these principles into their badassery, then I'll be overjoyed. And there's so much more too, but let's not overload anyone!

Anyway, I hope you recover from whatever you've faced in life. I thank you for giving me an occasion to offer what we've discovered, and I apologize for every unpleasantness I caused you

And to reassure others: I have no interest in continuing, now that people are no longer bullying Andarosh. Reducing suffering is my priority. That meant the OP — until the moment I noticed Andarosh was suffering a bit too gratuitously & unconstructively. I can easily soak up your flames; Andarosh doesn't quite have enough health to, yet. Thus it's more moral to redirect them to me. And I hope he gains strength by finding ways to help people

 

[internetgirl]

this is so heartbreaking. I'm without words. I hope that you find some sort of peace and that their are consequences to all of their words and actions. So cruel without even realizing it, your father should have said something, ugh it's just terrible people thinking they EVER have the right to touch someone else. Even as a joke. Disgusting.

 

[LittleBlackCat]

I'm so sorry. I was sexually harassed at work by my boss a year and a half ago - I chose not to report it but can't help thinking if I lived in another country where things like this were taken more seriously I would've spoken up.
I'm in my 30's, not really "pretty" so assumed I would be seen as a troublemaker.
I hate living in the UK. There is so much of this stuff going on and I feel it's getting worse.
I still have to see the waste of space guy every week and I hate it. But I feel trapped. I wish I could just leave my job.

 

[90starve]

I'm so sorry. I was sexually harassed at work by my boss a year and a half ago - I chose not to report it but can't help thinking if I lived in another country where things like this were taken more seriously I would've spoken up.
I'm in my 30's, not really "pretty" so assumed I would be seen as a troublemaker.
I hate living in the UK. There is so much of this stuff going on and I feel it's getting worse.
I still have to see the waste of space guy every week and I hate it. But I feel trapped. I wish I could just leave my job.

im so sorry to read that you've experienced this too <3 - it really is such a problem over here in the UK. i have found that it's mainly men in authority positions, men that we should trust, men that we can't speak up against, who are carrying out the SA most frequently.

and there's definitely a culture here that likes to push women's voices down, because SURELY we aren't "pretty enough" or "young enough" to have been assaulted. i hardly ever see stories of women above 25, women who are overweight, women who aren't conventionally pretty, or stories of black/minority women being sexually assaulted in the UK :(

i really feel for you - i hope you can get out of that disgusting workplace as soon as possible. us women have a right to feel safe at work <3