Story i was touched without consent, and i can’t get the feeling off my body

[90starve]

last week (the same night i attempted CTB for the first time) i was touched without consent by a male coworker who is twice my age (i'll call him "J" for anonymity).

myself, my dad, J and another coworker went for drinks Saturday evening. this was our first time all being together outside of work, so i didn't know what to expect.

after quite a bit of alcohol, we were all very intoxicated - but having fun. out of nowhere, J turns to me and grabs one of my breasts. his hand was there for a good 3 second before he realised what he had done - J pulled his hand away and frantically apologised. i don't know why he did it, and can't remember what the conversation was about at that point - but it seemingly happened out of nowhere, and caught me completely off guard.

the second coworker laughed - and my dad, who i expected to stand up for me, just frowned at J before continuing to drink. when J apologised to me, all i said was "it's fine". why did i say that? it wasn't fine at all. i felt so dirty and wrong - it put a dark stain on the rest of the night.

this isn't the first time i have been touched without consent - but it is the first time it happened by the hand of somebody i trusted not to do it.

im at work now. a different coworker, unrelated to Saturday evening, told me today that they had all been "joking around" about me and J having some sort of romantic relationship.

im so embarrassed. i feel just… wrong. i don't know how else to explain it. i have this horrible, persistent butterfly feeling that's spread across the whole of my chest. it won't go away.

i have been working here for 2.5 years now - i have been sexually harassed by 2 other male coworkers also more than twice my age, and 2 males in their late 20s - word travels fast here - not only have i had to endure the harassment itself, but i have to endure all the conversation and jokes that surround each experience.

i identify as female, and have no desire to identify as anything else - but i can't help but wish that i was something more like an alien. im tired of every man i talk to viewing me as a sexual object, a woman - why can't they please just look at me and simply see a person?

it's so, so tiring. i can't take it anymore.

 

[HopefulSleep]

it hurts and sexual stuff just scares me at this point

 

[Whale_bones]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. There really isn't anything to make the feeling better IME, and it's terrible because you'd do anything to just scrape the feeling off. Just know that it is 100% absolutely wrong for anyone to touch you without your consent, and a male coworker twice your age touching you like that is inexcusable. The other men who won't stand up against this, who would rather just make a joke or pressure you into pretending it was consensual, are in the wrong too. Just think if it was someone else, can you imagine acting like that toward another person who experienced this?

When you're surrounded by sexism and harassment it can feel hopeless, and it wasn't until I was older that I found out that it's highly dependent on the culture (of a workplace, of a social group, etc). Men who are safe and non-sexist hang out with other men who are safe and non-sexist, and vice versa. Men who don't put up with sexist behavior don't stay in groups of men who do.

If you have any option of leaving this job at all, I would really recommend you do, as it doesn't sound like a place where you would be protected and supported if you tried to raise any concerns about the harassment. Sending you strength, and atleast some thoughts of comfort, I know there's not much I can do.

 

[90starve]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. There really isn't anything to make the feeling better IME, and it's terrible because you'd do anything to just scrape the feeling off. Just know that it is 100% absolutely wrong for anyone to touch you without your consent, and a male coworker twice your age touching you like that is inexcusable. The other men who won't stand up against this, who would rather just make a joke or pressure you into pretending it was consensual, are in the wrong too. Just think if it was someone else, can you imagine acting like that toward another person who experienced this?

When you're surrounded by sexism and harassment it can feel hopeless, and it wasn't until I was older that I found out that it's highly dependent on the culture (of a workplace, of a social group, etc). Men who are safe and non-sexist hang out with other men who are safe and non-sexist, and vice versa. Men who don't put up with sexist behavior don't stay in groups of men who do.

If you have any option of leaving this job at all, I would really recommend you do, as it doesn't sound like a place where you would be protected and supported if you tried to raise any concerns about the harassment. Sending you strength, and atleast some thoughts of comfort, I know there's not much I can do.

thankyou for your warm and kind response - it gave me a little comfort reading, and a little really does go a long way :)

i can't imagine ever joking about this to anybody else - especially right in front of the person experiencing harassment!

sexual harassment is such a big problem in UK workforces, which is where i'm from.
for example: one of the coworkers i mentioned is at a manager level. he managed to track down my facebook profile and send me messages, even though my facebook is under an alias - and there was another manager who got demoted for touching up women at the company - only to be promoted back to his original position a few months later, just in a different area of the company. these sorts of men are definitely protected at my company.

so as you said, i don't think i would receive any support if i were to raise my concerns - it's not the sort of company that values it's workers, especially females.

sending you hugs <3

 

[Jule_from_Germany]

Sorry for what you're going through. I had a similar experience as a teenager with some shitty guy from school. It's so awful if nobody stands behind you

 

[Sweet Tart]

I'm so sorry fucked-up boundary violations can be so normalized in everyday work relationships. I'm a bit worried for you, as it sounds like some male coworkers are testing how much they can get away with. Imo, there is no surefire way to assert boundaries; we are likely to be perceived as either a bitch or easy.

I agree with @Whale_bones that it doesn't sound like an appropriate work environment and if possible, leaving this job may be good for your well-being and safety. If it's not possible to leave, I hope it's possible to avoid interacting with coworkers socially, especially when alcohol is involved, or take other measures that seem appropriate to you. But I also want to emphasize that It is not your responsibility to have to strategize ways to avoid non-consensual touching. It's fucked up to have to literally defend our bodies in everyday situations. Again, sorry this is happening, you deserve to have your personal space respected.

 

[90starve]

Sorry for what you're going through. I had a similar experience as a teenager with some shitty guy from school. It's so awful if nobody stands behind you

sexual harassment, and situations alike, are definitely so tough to get through on your own - and as a young female in a workforce dominated by older men, i feel it's even harder - it makes you feel so small, and so hopeless.

im sorry to read that you've also experienced something similar - and all while in school as well </3 i don't know how long ago it happened, but i do hope that by now you've found some way to heal :)

I'm so sorry fucked-up boundary violations can be so normalized in everyday work relationships. I'm a bit worried for you, as it sounds like some male coworkers are testing how much they can get away with. Imo, there is no surefire way to assert boundaries; we are likely to be perceived as either a bitch or easy.

I agree with @Whale_bones that it doesn't sound like an appropriate work environment and if possible, leaving this job may be good for your well-being and safety. If it's not possible to leave, I hope it's possible to avoid interacting with coworkers socially, especially when alcohol is involved, or take other measures that seem appropriate to you. But I also want to emphasize that It is not your responsibility to have to strategize ways to avoid non-consensual touching. It's fucked up to have to literally defend our bodies in everyday situations. Again, sorry this is happening, you deserve to have your personal space respected.

boundary violations are normalised way too much in so many aspects of life! - it's absurd to think that situations like mine happen so often that it just becomes "normal".

setting boundaries is something that i really struggle with. as you said, there's no sure fire way to do it - i wish there were a step-by-step user manual, which would teach me to set boundaries as easily as assembling a flat packed bookshelf.

last Saturday, for sure, will be the first and last time that i meet my coworkers outside of work!
as for leaving my job - i have it very easy here: i can start when i want (as long as it's reasonable), i can take my breaks whenever i want, i manage my own workload as i need to - so right now im just weighing up whether those benefits are worth enduring all of this disrespect (it's defo not!)

thanks for your support - im wishing you a lovely day and sending hugs <3

 

[just_so_done]

I agree with what everyone else has said, I am so sorry you had to experience that, that your coworkers and father failed you and you continue to be in an unsafe situation where your boundaries are not being respected but violated repeatedly.

One thing that really resonated with me was your response to J when it happened, "its fine". I feel like in society in my opinion, females are just supposed to be passive, not create conflict, especially when those around do nothing. I can relate, I used to know this guy when i was younger and he would always try and hook up with me when we were partying with mutual friends and i would always turn him down. One night i guess i was really drunk and he saw it as his opportunity. I woke up the next morning and his response was to laugh that he's never seen me that out of it before and when i asked what happened he said i passed out during sex and he laughed again that he kept going. you know what my response was? I'm sorry. WTF?! why should i apologize for being too intoxicated to give consent and that i couldn't interact in the sexual act that i would have never done. we laughed it off that I had been like a starfish on the bed because i didnt know how to respond and after processing it i started feeling uncomfortable being around him or seeing him. Our friends made jokes that I shouldnt make things awkward because two friends hooked up and just be cool about it.

Sorry didn't mean to make this about me but what i'm trying to say is that none of this is your fault, as a human it's your body and no one has the right to touch you without consent. Your response it's fine was because you were in shock and in the moment its hard to process what's happening, how you're being violated and even what the hell to say especially when there are others there doing nothing. I really hope you stay safe and i'm sorry for the trauma you went through and the shit youre continuing to deal with at work. Thinking of you

 

[90starve]

I agree with what everyone else has said, I am so sorry you had to experience that, that your coworkers and father failed you and you continue to be in an unsafe situation where your boundaries are not being respected but violated repeatedly.

One thing that really resonated with me was your response to J when it happened, "its fine". I feel like in society in my opinion, females are just supposed to be passive, not create conflict, especially when those around do nothing. I can relate, I used to know this guy when i was younger and he would always try and hook up with me when we were partying with mutual friends and i would always turn him down. One night i guess i was really drunk and he saw it as his opportunity. I woke up the next morning and his response was to laugh that he's never seen me that out of it before and when i asked what happened he said i passed out during sex and he laughed again that he kept going. you know what my response was? I'm sorry. WTF?! why should i apologize for being too intoxicated to give consent and that i couldn't interact in the sexual act that i would have never done. we laughed it off that I had been like a starfish on the bed because i didnt know how to respond and after processing it i started feeling uncomfortable being around him or seeing him. Our friends made jokes that I shouldnt make things awkward because two friends hooked up and just be cool about it.

Sorry didn't mean to make this about me but what i'm trying to say is that none of this is your fault, as a human it's your body and no one has the right to touch you without consent. Your response it's fine was because you were in shock and in the moment its hard to process what's happening, how you're being violated and even what the hell to say especially when there are others there doing nothing. I really hope you stay safe and i'm sorry for the trauma you went through and the shit youre continuing to deal with at work. Thinking of you

there's absolutely no need to apologise for sharing your story - this is what i was hoping for when i posted my thread <3

it's a sad story that you tell, and one that i read way too often. "it's fine" or "im sorry" are two responses that are just way too easy to spit out when you're still right in the middle of that horrible experience - am i right to think that it leaves you feeling stupid for saying it? that's how i feel at least :)

but as you said, i think women are always pushed to be small and quite - so standing up for ourselves just seems impossible a lot of the time, especially against someone loud and disgusting like the guy you describe.

thanks for sharing your story with us - sending you love <3

 

[Andarosh]

I feel so bad for you... I once destroyed my only friendship I've had after being alone for 5 years... one day when with a friend we both were really drunk with friend, I had lost control over myself and I was touching her... down there... This made me realise what kind of monster I am, by adding all of bad things I've done I think that the best thing would be if I were gone..

 

[just_so_done]

I feel so bad for you... I once destroyed my only friendship I've had after being alone for 5 years... one day when with a friend we both were really drunk with friend, I had lost control over myself and I was touching her... down there... This made me realise what kind of monster I am, by adding all of bad things I've done I think that the best thing would be if I were gone..

I think the fact that you can acknowledge and admit what you did was wrong is commendable, especially posting it in this forum. While it is not ok to engage in sexual acts without consent, the fact that you're taking ownership of your actions now shows you're not a monster, at least to me.

 

[Andarosh]

I know that if I wasn't drunk I would have never done this. According to my psychologist, due to being drunk my subconsciousness took control over me because I had feelings for her... and had done this... but it is still me who did it and it hurts me every day.

 

[90starve]

I feel so bad for you... I once destroyed my only friendship I've had after being alone for 5 years... one day when with a friend we both were really drunk with friend, I had lost control over myself and I was touching her... down there... This made me realise what kind of monster I am, by adding all of bad things I've done I think that the best thing would be if I were gone..

I know that if I wasn't drunk I would have never done this. According to my psychologist, due to being drunk my subconsciousness took control over me because I had feelings for her... and had done this... but it is still me who did it and it hurts me every day.

i agree with what @just_so_done said - you put that so well i don't think i can really add anything :)

of course, we all make bad mistakes when we're drunk - some worse than others - i've definitely made my share that i regret.
but i believe some people can redeem themselves by taking accountability, apologising, and taking actions toward not making the same mistakes <3

unfortunately, we live in a cruel world, full of some terrible people - i've met so many that are irredeemably bad inside.

 

[Whale_bones]

I feel so bad for you... I once destroyed my only friendship I've had after being alone for 5 years... one day when with a friend we both were really drunk with friend, I had lost control over myself and I was touching her... down there... This made me realise what kind of monster I am, by adding all of bad things I've done I think that the best thing would be if I were gone..

So a woman is allowed to rob you, stab you, or commit whatever other crime she feels like, and she can just say she "lost control", right? If that's an excuse, we all need to be able to use it, after all. Women have just as many feelings as men do, yet somehow we aren't allowed to commit crimes and excuse it by saying we "lost control".

According to my psychologist, due to being drunk my subconsciousness took control over me because I had feelings for her.

You have a shitty psychologist then, because subconsciousness isn't a thing (and psychologists use the term "unconscious" mind). Anyone with education in the field, which a psychologist certainly has, knows that unconscious processes don't "take control" over someone; again, why would we even prosecute criminals if they were under some mystical force that wasn't in their control? No, it's well established that human beings, and that includes men, don't have any mysterious force that conveniently takes over their mind when they commit sexual assault.

This is a post of a woman talking about her own experience with non-consensual touching. Instead of giving any genuine reply to things she said or offering her support, you commented talking about yourself and how YOU assaulted somebody. How is that in any way appropriate? In what world would that be supportive or helpful to her?

 

[Andarosh]

So a woman is allowed to rob you, stab you, or commit whatever other crime she feels like, and she can just say she "lost control", right? If that's an excuse, we all need to be able to use it, after all. Women have just as many feelings as men do, yet somehow we aren't allowed to commit crimes and excuse it by saying we "lost control".


You have a shitty psychologist then, because subconsciousness isn't a thing (and psychologists use the term "unconscious" mind). Anyone with education in the field, which a psychologist certainly has, knows that unconscious processes don't "take control" over someone; again, why would we even prosecute criminals if they were under some mystical force that wasn't in their control? No, it's well established that human beings, and that includes men, don't have any mysterious force that conveniently takes over their mind when they commit sexual assault.

This is a post of a woman talking about her own experience with non-consensual touching. Instead of giving any genuine reply to things she said or offering her support, you commented talking about yourself and how YOU assaulted somebody. How is that in any way appropriate? In what world would that be supportive or helpful to her?

Sorry... I had not realised what I was actually thinking when reacting to this original post with my post...

What was it then? I´m 100% sure that I would not do anything like this if I wasn´t drunk.

I am open to help, I feel so bad for this post of a woman, because of similar experience, it is something I fully regret. It´s just I don´t know how to help.

 

[SexyIncél]

the second coworker laughed - and my dad, who i expected to stand up for me, just frowned at J before continuing to drink. when J apologised to me, all i said was "it's fine". why did i say that? it wasn't fine at all. i felt so dirty and wrong - it put a dark stain on the rest of the night.

Your dad done fucked up. What's up with that coward, if you don't mind me asking? Protecting you is one of his basic responsibilities

And he still can. If he has something resembling a spine. In these situations, people standing up for you — even especially when it's uncomfortable for them — helps injured people heal

 

[90starve]

Your dad done fucked up. What's up with that coward, if you don't mind me asking? Protecting you is one of his basic responsibilities

And he still can. If he has something resembling a spine. In these situations, people standing up for you — even especially when it's uncomfortable for them — helps injured people heal

usually my dad is very good at standing up for me - we have a good relationship - so it hurt when he didn't stand with me during this :(

Sorry... I had not realised what I was actually thinking when reacting to this original post with my post...

What was it then? I´m 100% sure that I would not do anything like this if I wasn´t drunk.

I am open to help, I feel so bad for this post of a woman, because of similar experience, it is something I fully regret. It´s just I don´t know how to help.

while there may not be a reason as to why you did it - sexual assault can't be excused. drunken mistakes do happen, but SA is something that requires taking accountability - you can't start to take accountability if you believe that your actions were caused by the alcohol alone.

 

[SexyIncél]

usually my dad is very good at standing up for me - we have a good relationship - so it hurt when he didn't stand with me during this :(

Cool — can you broach this topic with him?

I am open to help, I feel so bad for this post of a woman, because of similar experience, it is something I fully regret. It´s just I don´t know how to help.

If it helps you to discuss this, a new post seems wisest. Under this post, weeelll... you'd just be digging a hole with your mouth fingers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[MeltingBrain]

If I was your dad I would have gotten physical and confrontational with J the creep .

 

[90starve]

Cool — can you broach this topic with him?


If it helps you to discuss this, a new post seems wisest. Under this post, weeelll... you'd just be digging a hole with your mouth fingers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

talking about it with my dad is probably a good thing - but it terrifies me even thinking about it! thankyou for your support <3

If I was your dad I would have gotten physical and confrontational with J the creep .

i think my dad was honestly just too drunk - but i agree!

 

[Whale_bones]

Sorry... I had not realised what I was actually thinking when reacting to this original post with my post...

What was it then? I´m 100% sure that I would not do anything like this if I wasn´t drunk.

I am open to help, I feel so bad for this post of a woman, because of similar experience, it is something I fully regret. It´s just I don´t know how to help.

It's not women's responsibility to teach you to stop assaulting women. We are the last people who should have to spend our time and resources on you. Go take classes, go do research, educate yourself on sexual assault and the effect it has on victims, listen to podcasts and interviews where women speak about their experiences and actually *listen* to what they say. Go take advantage of any of the myriad of resources already available to you.

Don't keep excusing your crimes by saying alcohol, feelings or anything else made you do it. Don't ask women, *especially* women who've already stated that they've been through assault, to spend more of their time and energy on the type of man that does that by teaching you things that you can easily learn on your own with a little effort.

 

[SexyIncél]

It's not women's responsibility to teach you to stop assaulting women. We are the last people who should have to spend our time and resources on you. Go take classes, go do research, educate yourself on sexual assault and the effect it has on victims, listen to podcasts and interviews where women speak about their experiences and actually *listen* to what they say. Go take advantage of any of the myriad of resources already available to you.

Don't keep excusing your crimes by saying alcohol, feelings or anything else made you do it. Don't ask women, *especially* women who've already stated that they've been through assault, to spend more of their time and energy on the type of man that does that by teaching you things that you can easily learn on your own with a little effort.

I suspect @Andarosh isn't a native english speaker? And by saying "I am open to help" maybe he meant he wants to help, but he doesn't know how?

We spoke a bit in PMs and I think he understands his intervention was an error. And this is a suicide forum, where many of us have brain fog & shattered mentally, and he's contrite daily and seeked a psychologist. Maybe we can ease up a bit, he probably gets it now & we could spare him falling further down the rabbithole of ill health

 

[FadingFast2023]

One time at a bar a coworker that I had no interest in put her hand on my cock under the table. I turned around to my friend on the other side and told him she just grabbed my cock under the table. She stopped. I never really thought about again until just now. I suppose I could have become a victim and turned it into something awful. But it never really crossed my mind until I read this post.

 

[Whale_bones]

I suspect @Andarosh isn't a native english speaker? And by saying "I am open to help" maybe he meant he wants to help, but he doesn't know how?

We spoke a bit in PMs and I think he understands his intervention was an error. And this is a suicide forum, where many of us have brain fog & shattered mentally, and he's contrite daily and seeked a psychologist. Maybe we can ease up a bit, he probably gets it now & we could spare him falling further down the rabbithole of ill health

He literally excused sexually assaulting someone by blaming it on his feelings and alcohol. It was 100% his choice to come into this post and talk about how he assaulted someone, I don't have to "ease up" when all I'm doing is standing firm on the fact that his actions are his responsibility. He could have made his own post, I wouldn't have ever commented on that. But I refuse to go along with someone excusing sexual assault on a post that is about *exactly that*, and it's pretty messed up for you to ask me to.

I'm not calling him names, saying slurs, swearing at him, etc. I'm not even being aggressive, and there are many posts on this forum, about much less serious subjects, where people are way more aggressive in the way they speak, and those people don't get told to ease up. I can also guarantee you I have plenty of brain fog, but I don't use that as an excuse to not be held responsible for what I say. If I say something and later realize I misphrassed it, I will correct that and clearly say "I misstated X, I don't stand for X, here is what I stand for". I don't just expect to be given a pass to say whatever I want with no response and no pushback.

I really don't care whether he's contrite or not. It's not about him and how feels. I care about the *victims* of sexual assault and the impact on their lives. They're the ones who didn't get to make a choice, they're the ones who had this forced on them. This is a perfect example of the phenomenon OP was talking about, but it's so ridiculous and backwards when victims of assault are literally told they need to worry about an assaulter's feelings. No, absolutely fuckin' not, and I won't back down on that.

 

[SexyIncél]

I really don't care whether he's contrite or not. It's not about him and how feels. I care about the *victims* of sexual assault and the impact on their lives. They're the ones who didn't get to make a choice, they're the ones who had this forced on them. This is a perfect example of the phenomenon OP was talking about, but it's so ridiculous and backwards when victims of assault are literally told they need to worry about an assaulter's feelings. No, absolutely fuckin' not, and I won't back down on that.

Do as you wish. Just remember you're on a suicide forum. If you think that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for Andarosh, then you're in luck. Because his guilt is a major factor in his ctb decisionmaking. Just a little more pushing & maybe you'll end him! Woohoo

As for myself, I've put myself physically and materially on the line confronting men who attacked girls. By any means necessary. Including carefully justified amounts of violence, with the enthusiastic consent of the victims

Your ostensible goal is to reduce violence against women. Ok, let's examine your biases. Take for example your advice: "If you have any option of leaving this job at all, I would really recommend you do, as it doesn't sound like a place where you would be protected and supported if you tried to raise any concerns about the harassment."

In other words, running & rolling the dice. Ignoring every other possibility. Without even tips on researching (momentarily) safe companies. Nor identifying & helping other women in the same boat

Nor checking to see if her father's an effective resource. As it turns out, the OP says: "usually my dad is very good at standing up for me - we have a good relationship". Ok, the faint beginnings of teamwork. Maybe we're getting somewhere

Now, I don't understand why the OP didn't consider using her dad earlier. Much about this story is odd. Ordinarily on the phone, I'd delve into all these burning questions until I'm satisfied I understand all the dynamics and players. Then we'd prepare actions. Not only to solve her problem — but hopefully other women's too! (Ever think about them? Not everyone has a daddy who'll fight for them)

But alas, we're remote-debugging someone's problems in an anonymous forum. The OP's welcome to message me, if she deems me potentially helpful in analyzing deeper

It's not women's responsibility to teach you to stop assaulting women. We are the last people who should have to spend our time and resources on you. Go take classes, go do research, educate yourself on sexual assault and the effect it has on victims, listen to podcasts and interviews where women speak about their experiences and actually *listen* to what they say. Go take advantage of any of the myriad of resources already available to you.

This remarkable laziness pops up in certain loud circles. You have time to write long posts, but somehow can't drop one (1) link. Maybe because it suffers the fatal flaw of actually being effective. Beyond performative venting

Furthermore, you're not just talking with Andarosh — but a wide audience. You could point people to resources that'd help them organize against all the sexual assault and violence around them. There's solutions beyond your impotent hyper-individualist ones: silently running away or not assaulting

Not to mention: Andarosh is so unwilling to assault women again, he said "This made me realise what kind of monster I am, by adding all of bad things I've done I think that the best thing would be if I were gone.." So I'm not quite sure what you're hoping to accomplish, beyond virtue signaling or nudging him to suicide

Sending you strength, and atleast some thoughts of comfort, I know there's not much I can do.

"I know there's not much I can do." Precisely the attitude I keep encountering. There's runners, enablers — and fighters

Hopefully you'll offer us evidence that you're actually a fighter. In real life. If you are, you have my respect if it matters

 

[Whale_bones]

Do as you wish. Just remember you're on a suicide forum. If you think that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for Andarosh, then you're in luck. Because his guilt is a major factor in his ctb decisionmaking. Just a little more pushing & maybe you'll end him! Woohoo

It's disgusting for you to imply that I'm in any way giving someone the death penalty or pushing them to suicide. Users aren't responsible for each other's suicides on this forum in the first place, and saying a man who commits sexual assault is responsible for that assault could never, in any universe, be logically deemed as pushing someone to suicide.

Your ostensible goal is to reduce violence against women. Ok, let's examine your biases. Take for example your advice: "If you have any option of leaving this job at all, I would really recommend you do, as it doesn't sound like a place where you would be protected and supported if you tried to raise any concerns about the harassment."

In other words, running & rolling the dice. Ignoring every other possibility. Without even tips on researching (momentarily) safe companies. Nor identifying & helping other women in the same boat

This is just a weird assumption to make, why are you putting words in my mouth that she wouldn't research safe companies? Who can get a a new job by just walking through the door of a company and immediately starting to work there? Obviously you have to learn about a company and apply for a job before you start working there. I didn't type that out because it's common knowledge.

Nor checking to see if her father's an effective resource. As it turns out, the OP says: "usually my dad is very good at standing up for me - we have a good relationship". Ok, the faint beginnings of teamwork. Maybe we're getting somewhere

Now, I don't understand why the OP didn't consider using her dad earlier. Much about this story is odd.

Her story isn't odd whatsoever, what she described takes place very commonly. You're criticizing my advice to her to leave that workplace, but that comment about her dad was made in a later comment, after the post of mine you quoted. The information I had at the time was that her dad specifically had *not* stood up for her in this incident, and she already knew he had not been an "effective resource".

This remarkable laziness pops up in certain loud circles. You have time to write long posts, but somehow can't drop one (1) link. Maybe because it suffers the fatal flaw of actually being effective. Beyond performative venting

Furthermore, you're not just talking with Andarosh — but a wide audience. You could point people to resources that'd help them organize against all the sexual assault and violence around them. There's solutions beyond your impotent hyper-individualist ones: silently running away or not assaulting

If you were to take a look at my post history, you'd see I include links frequently when referencing things like statistics. I specifically pointed out I'm *not* going to do the work of finding, reading through and sourcing resource articles for Andarosh, who has the exact same capability to do that since he also has Google. Victims of SA have already been through hell, and we don't owe even an ounce more of our time or energy to assaulters. Victims are also allowed to do anything they need to to keep themselves safe, and you calling it "silently running away" shows you have no clue about the strength and fortitude it takes to survive this.

"I know there's not much I can do." Precisely the attitude I keep encountering. There's runners, enablers — and fighters

Hopefully you'll offer us evidence that you're actually a fighter. In real life. If you are, you have my respect if it matters

So according to you I'm a "runner" because I, what, don't physically beat up assaulters? Yet I also, at the same time, need to "ease up" on just using words to tell an assaulter that he is responsible for his own actions? No, I'm not at all interested in earning your respect, because I don't think we have the same definition of respect. I will drop one link, but this is all I'm doing because information and statistics about SA are SO easy to find by just using goddamn Google.

Sexual Assault Perpetrators' Justifications for Their Actions

When perpetrators use justifications, which commonly include alcohol and feelings, it's not only very damaging to victims, it's literally a predictor that they're much more likely to commit SA again. "Greater use of justifications was a significant predictor of sexual aggression over a 1-year follow-up interval." This is common knowledge for anyone who's educated about SA, and a huge focus of classes for perpetrators is getting them to take responsibility for their actions. Andarosh using those justifications and you telling victims that they need to accept them is upholding the exact environment that allows SA to take place. This aspect, along with many others, are well-studied by now, and the information is all readily accessible via Google.

 

[SexyIncél]

It's disgusting for you to imply that I'm in any way giving someone the death penalty or pushing them to suicide. Users aren't responsible for each other's suicides on this forum in the first place

We're responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions/inactions. A rare few are moral enough to act that way

Hopefully that includes Andarosh, who may discover that fighting for the abused underdog will heal his guilt. We're discussing such things privately, and I hope constructively

This is just a weird assumption to make, why are you putting words in my mouth that she wouldn't research safe companies? Who can get a a new job by just walking through the door of a company and immediately starting to work there? Obviously you have to learn about a company and apply for a job before you start working there. I didn't type that out because it's common knowledge.

I've successfully helped people leave abusive jobs. And helped others gain power in their current jobs to stop people abusing them. Each time, we had to enumerate the pros/cons of various tactics, to avoid landing in an equally-crappy-or-worse situation

Some features of workplaces:

• they're secretive little cults
• wageslaves compete with each other to get rented
• the more your bargaining power, the better they treat you

Resulting actions we took:

• surveillance: inviting their employees for lunch, "stalk" hiring managers' social media, observe & evaluate yellow/red flags, etc
• learn negotiation & increase bargaining power
• etc...

Those who take responsibility quickly discover that there's no such thing as "obviously"

Her story isn't odd whatsoever, what she described takes place very commonly.

Almost every story has odd peculiarities. Anyone truly serious about intervening will investigate them. Pull on threads that seem... off. Makes effective action far easier

You're criticizing my advice to her to leave that workplace, but that comment about her dad was made in a later comment, after the post of mine you quoted. The information I had at the time was that her dad specifically had *not* stood up for her in this incident, and she already knew he had not been an "effective resource".

Perfect example of the importance of pulling on odd threads! You saw but didn't observe. To anyone who practices responsibility, it was a huge honkin' red flag

As you saw, "that comment about her dad" was a direct result of my questions. I had just as little info as you. So I ASKED

More generally: intervene & observe the consequences. Most don't, and thus make endless excuses like "How could I have known!?"

BTW if her dad is somehow bound to this workplace, then changing workplaces would lose his influence

So according to you I'm a "runner" because I, what, don't physically beat up assaulters?

No, violence is just one possible tactic. Even when appropriate, it's typically the last step after escalating up to it. Every tactic has pros/cons. We evaluate tactics by considering their predictable consequences

The culture you're likely part of is hyper-individualistic. Thus you appear allergic to all forms of effective teamwork. Your actions are more geared to pushing Andarosh to ctb, not enlisting him to defend the underdog. Not identifying other victims. Not considering others who might help — or need help

Thus, as an atomized individual, nothing's left but to run

 

[90starve]

hi @absurdtimeline :) i hope your day is going well.

i've been following along with this debate as it's been unfolding - it's been very interesting to read.

but i have to say - i really don't think that your input (beyond the reply below) has been very helpful or insightful, and has steered away from the original subject of my thread.

Your dad done fucked up. What's up with that coward, if you don't mind me asking? Protecting you is one of his basic responsibilities

And he still can. If he has something resembling a spine. In these situations, people standing up for you — even especially when it's uncomfortable for them — helps injured people heal

i appreciate why you want to defend @Andarosh - this forum is all about support. although, i do believe that @Whale_bones was justified in her response, given the subject matter.

what i have a problem with is: your comments seem to have now evolved into a personal vendetta against @Whale_bones and also has little to do with defending @Andarosh anymore.

im not trying to offend anybody here - i just don't believe this is the sort of place for personal attacks <3

 

[Whale_bones]

I've successfully helped people leave abusive jobs. And helped others gain power in their current jobs to stop people abusing them. Each time, we had to enumerate the pros/cons of various tactics, to avoid landing in an equally-crappy-or-worse situation

Some features of workplaces:

• they're secretive little cults
• wageslaves compete with each other to get rented
• the more your bargaining power, the better they treat you

Resulting actions we took:

• surveillance: inviting their employees for lunch, "stalk" hiring managers' social media, observe & evaluate yellow/red flags, etc
• learn negotiation & increase bargaining power
• etc...

These replies have derailed from the original topic, I have no interest in discussing generalized bargaining power at jobs and such unrelated topics. You replied to specific small parts of my post and took them out of context , but didn't reply to the overall context in which I was relating them to sexual assault and harassment, which is what this thread is discussing. I provided a link, which is what you claimed you wanted, and wrote a whole paragraph about how it relates to this discussion, and you didn't reply to that at all.

I'm not going to continue replying to each off-topic nitpick, since that would just divert from OP's story, and I also feel I've sufficiently made all the points I needed to in my last post.

 

[odradek]

Sorry for what happened to you, it's so casually cruel and unfair and far too common. I will echo what a lot others have said in here, your feelings are valid and you deserve to have your boundaries respected at all times. It is a cultural problem. It's endemic sadly. I'm sorry you and all women have to deal with this shit honestly.

Spoiler: Potential digression but relevant

This thread has brought up an interesting discussion on the dynamics between victims, perpetrators and witnesses when specifically discussing sexual violence. Which Indeed happened here. The victims responsibility is to heal if they are able, they deserve their dignity and self esteem. But they bear no responsibility to the perpetrator. Perpetrators need to take accountability, show remorse and a willingness to learn and change. More importantly they need to listen to more women. Witnesses need to speak up more. I recognize this in myself and am I trying to learn more as I age. These are views I've cultivated over time but I know I still have blind spots.

I think it's important for men to be aware of their position in this world, which is undeniably misogynistic. I've never had a woman tell me that I've done something like this and I would attest to my own Innocence. I don't think I've ever put my hands on someone who did not consent as far as I can recall. I don't take this as a point of pride, I take it as a reminder of constant vigilance, I have to always listen and learn because our society is geared towards allowing me freer reign in these contexts. Just because no one has ever told me does not mean I am innocent, I acknowledge this. I hold some responsibility for cultural misogyny just by the simple fact I am male. I don't even have agree to or appreciate these benefits to receive them. Men don't always realize the ease with which we move through this world. It's hard, you don't know what you don't know, but you can learn. And the onus is on us to learn.

I've also gained the trust of women over time who have told me horrifying stories that at first surprised me but over time just became the default. I can still be shocked and horrified but never surprised anymore. Every woman in your life has a story like this, that's another thing I've learned. Every. Single. One. Stories of being followed, harrassed, and worse. People will put their hands on women with such ease in our culture. Not just by men but everyone. This is like some weird foundational form of misogyny that I've been noticing more and more.

I see women and (especially victims) who are disempowered on the daily, now that I've trained myself to see them. How do we decide who gets sent home early from work (losing part of their wages) when our incompetent management fails to plan more then a day ahead? Always women and the marginalized. Who are paid less at work? Whose performance is most scrutinized?These are easy and obvious examples I can that take little effort for me to notice and acknowledge from my own life. Now I am not perfect, I don't speak up every time. There's always room for being a better person.

I think ultimately men need to take accountability and have a willingness to listen and learn. And some humility can go a long way.

P.S.

If you want to discuss this further make a new thread (unless OP wants to). I have no interest in further derailing this thread but I think it might good for men who read this thread to see this.

Sorry for the tangent.