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Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
I've been thinking about this for a while now. But recently I'm reading "Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche" and it alligned with what I think. I look down upon having children because that's "normal" or for your own selfish desires. Not like I deny it would bring me joy. Of course it would. But that shouldn't matter. If I have a child that means I believe that people can change. I believe we can improve our life. I would study before that (I already do, fortunately my friend is very knowledgable in childrens cognitive developement and willing to talk to me about it) to not just give them everything I can but teach them to be more than the average. The freedom (and often unhappiness) of knowledge. Not brainwash them into my philosophy but to give them the base for critical thinking so they can exceed humans. Übermensch if you will lol. I believe change is possible. I don't like the argument "we will die in like a hundred thousand years so it doesn't matter". I want to believe we have the potencial for a better world. I believe I'm capable of giving them a good background both financially and emotionally. Of course it's a hit or miss maybe they would be unhappy. Maybe they would be the happiest person on earth. But I don't want to avoid the whole thing. Yes it's the "safe" way sure. The biggest argument for AN is that the absence of suffering exceeds the absence of happiness but I believe that shouldn't be like that. Watcha think?
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,418
All valid points. I certainly don't care for the mob mentality around this topic that has, in the past, reached a point of abusing fellow forum members for having had children.

I've had education in children's development and a bit of experience, too. The main challenge as I see it is that there are many elements that need to be in order to have a reasonable probability of a good outcome. Examples: 1) A good, functional family (nuclear and extended), 2) Good mental health, 3) Reasonably abundant finances, 4) A decent community, 5) a reasonable wider world (political and ecological stability).

I score so lowly on all those points that the most likely outcome would be disaster. I'm also old enough to see the dramatic contrast between people who can tick those boxes vs. those who can't, but try really hard anyway. I've seen the initial joy end up in absolute disaster.

None of this is to tell anyone else what to do, but these are my impressions as someone who wound up childless and alone, yet amidst the sadness of never experiencing being loved, I am glad to have averted a likely catastrophe.
 
Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
@Pluto
Definitely, I understand. Obviously if it comes to that (which is far away so I have more than enough time to think about it and have a wider understanding) I'll only make that decision if I'm more than certain on paper everything is granted for my child. (For example as long as I'm on this forum with these thoughts definitely not)
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,418
From my experience, closing off completely to the idea of parenting can be extremely dark. It's obviously not as bad as losing a child to death, but it's somewhere on that same spectrum. So your approach of being open and cautious makes a lot of sense.
 
Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
If only life was predictable and simple like that. And in our control.
It's not. We can only do as much as we have in our control. But I don't like the mentality that if your finger hurts don't try to heal it just cut it off. I have more hopes in humanity. Life is hard and cruel sometimes but it's also beautiful. Idk... maybe just my desire to be a mother talks from me which is the one thing I don't want to infuence my decision
 
Proteus

Proteus

Oceanic Member
Feb 6, 2024
300
The biggest argument for AN is that the absence of suffering exceeds the absence of happiness but I believe that shouldn't be like that. Watcha think?
Yes. I wholeheartedly recommend against having them. I frequently critisize anti-natalism, but my opinion on life isn't high, either. I stopped being depressed years ago and feel fairly well most of the time, and I say this after thinking clearly: on the extreme, I don't know any level of happiness that compares to trauma. I also don't know anything that makes you immune to it, while happiness can end suddenly and for many reasons. There is also the impact to those around. Life is unpredictable, no matter how much you think you planned it.

Someone said looking happiness as the only purpose is a very American to say, and he meant it negatively. I agree. Good and bad things aren't like math numbers, they don't nullify each other. The bad potential is way worse, and every life requires a lot of it to maintain itself in form of competence, self-care, prevention of the potential bads, how hard those bads are to treat... Life needs all this to work, and they make up most part one's time. Happiness is ephemeral by definition. There are countless studies on it, it's something that needs something previous to come and not permanent. If you chase and expect it to be a default, or even happen most of the time, you will be disappointed. Same goes for well-being. All good things come with a previous effort of something usually hard, it's how life is.

To me, not being father liberates me, gives me autonomy and time to think, do things, and help others. Time I'd never had justifying anything rough for me or them because "that's how life is".

I don't like the mentality that if your finger hurts don't try to heal it just cut it off
One thing is to recover if you feel low, which I totally support. Another different thing is opening the gate to said injuries because... they can get healed? What? I don't like the "why prevent a wound if it can be healed" mentality either.

What good in the world are you talking about, exactly? I don't see how a kid would make it better.
 
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Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
@Proteus
I don't think a "perfect life" is constant happiness. That would lose it's meaning entirely. Just as with any emotion really. It's a constant journey through all these emotions. We like to pretend here that the average person feels misery 0-24. That's not true. Most people feel nothing most of the time. Then happiness. Then sadness. Then envy. Then guilt. Then joy. Then compassion. And so on. What good in the world I'm talking about? The incredible potencial human beings have. A mindful life. A self aware existence. Destroying outdated values and building new ideas in their place. Evolution. Developement. Life is unpredictable but we aren't. We just have to know ourselfs.
 
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Proteus

Proteus

Oceanic Member
Feb 6, 2024
300
I don't think a "perfect life" is constant happiness. That would lose it's meaning entirely. Just as with any emotion really. It's a constant journey through all these emotions.
But you are still putting more emphasis on the potential good. I don't agree with that balance.
We like to pretend here that the average person feels misery 0-24. That's not true. Most people feel nothing most of the time. Then happiness. Then sadness. Then envy. Then guilt. Then joy. Then compassion. And so on.
Yeah, I am aware... I just told you I'm at that point, that I managed to feel fine most of the time. I definitely don't pretend it's only misery.
What good in the world I'm talking about? The incredible potencial human beings have. A mindful life. A self aware existence. Destroying outdated values and building new ideas in their place. Evolution. Developement. Life is unpredictable but we aren't. We just have to know ourselfs.
Potential, sure. No doubt of that. The problem is that, it's just potential. Most people about very few things, and those usually aren't them.
 
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Homo erectus

Homo erectus

Mage
Mar 7, 2023
560
This world is suffering. There is unlikely to change. The best way to reduce suffering is not to open more windows for souls, consciousness, or whatever, to enter this world. Everything is just illusion. People need to break the vicious circle and stop projecting their unfulfilled dreams and illusion onto their offspring.
 
Slow_Farewell

Slow_Farewell

Warlock
Dec 19, 2023
715
The choice to have kids or not to have kids is, similar to CTB reasons, up to the individual.
Some may provide a logical argument against it, some may provide reasons that weigh more on the emotional side of things, but at the end of the day, like CTB, no one has any right to say, demean, or look down on people who pro-create. Heck, i even have a sore spot for those people who shove AN down everyone's throats without having experienced having kids themselves. But that's me.

Personally, to speak of something without having experienced it is something that people tend to do a lot, and it really is a pain in the ass.

Go have kids. They have the potential to turn out well, and who knows, they may, with the careful guidance, actually be the trigger for change in the system. Of course, it's a toss up, but isn't most of life like that in the first place?
 
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Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
The choice to have kids or not to have kids is, similar to CTB reasons, up to the individual.
Some may provide a logical argument against it, some may provide reasons that weigh more on the emotional side of things, but at the end of the day, like CTB, no one has any right to say, demean, or look down on people who pro-create. Heck, i even have a sore spot for those people who shove AN down everyone's throats without having experienced having kids themselves. But that's me.

Personally, to speak of something without having experienced it is something that people tend to do a lot, and it really is a pain in the ass.

Go have kids. They have the potential to turn out well, and who knows, they may, with the careful guidance, actually be the trigger for change in the system. Of course, it's a toss up, but isn't most of life like that in the first place?
Ultimately yes. No one can "stop me" whatever I decide. I just want to hear the opinions. This is the perfect place to hear the counter arguments I mostly agree with. Yet there are big changes happening in my life right now and I feel like a new side of things opened up to me I could never comprehend before. It's just a conflict in me and just something I think about recently. Not like it's anywhere in the near future. I just feel like I was in a bubble only seeing the negative side of things. And even now it's still a negative worldview but made me realize that maybe it doesn't have to be. If I can ever figure out how to live a fulfilling life maybe it isn't so hopeless. In the end I will make the decision I feel like is the most thought out and responsible so the more I think about it, the more opinions I hear is the better.
 
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Yuki_03

Yuki_03

I really can't take it
Aug 9, 2023
353
I don't want to have kids, but to raise them into their best selves. I'm gay, so I'd adopt. But I don't see that future. I can't achieve it. And I don't want to pass my shit to others.
 
Proteus

Proteus

Oceanic Member
Feb 6, 2024
300
Personally, to speak of something without having experienced it is something that people tend to do a lot, and it really is a pain in the ass.
I don't think you need to experience some things to talk about them, in the same way I don't need to touch fire to know I won't like it. This is a way to invalidate other's beliefs without arguing anything. Feels like a weird fallacy of autorithy when only those one likes can participate.
Heck, i even have a sore spot for those people who shove AN down everyone's throats
Me too, it's repetitive and tiring. Most AN is bad in general. However, OP asked us our upinion, so in this case, it's relevant.
 
Slow_Farewell

Slow_Farewell

Warlock
Dec 19, 2023
715
I don't think you need to experience some things to talk about them, in the same way I don't need to touch fire to know I won't like it. This is a way to invalidate other's beliefs without arguing anything. Feels like a weird fallacy of autorithy when only those one likes can participate.
That is one way of looking at it. It could also be down to the presentation of the argument, or, perhaps a more accurate statement would be, to the presentation of their statement.
It's true, you don't need touch fire to know you won't like. that is something that's universal. I personally don't think having kids or child rearing itself can be simplified to such an extent as comparing it to touching fire.
Perhaps for clarity it would have been more accurate to state that in my opinion, in terms of childbirth and the decision to have kids, people who've experienced it compared to those of us who haven't, but i thought this was a thread about procreating.
 
Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
18,965
Making kids is inherently selfish but being unwilling to raise them can be argued as more selfish so it doesn't really matter. I think the time and effort and especially money spent on raising kids well is extremely selfless to the point where the selfishness of not wanting to go through it is valid in its own way.

If you think you'd be able to protect them from the evils of the world then go for it but know it won't be easy. There will be all kinds of challenges we can't even fathom in the future. Maybe there will be yet another lockdown forcing them to be emotionally stunted by another couple years. Maybe some shady influencer like Logan Paul or worse will explode in popularity and no matter how much of a bad example they are your kid will love and cherish every little thing they say because if they don't their social lives will be forever ruined. It doesn't have to be an influencer it could be anything. You can't just not have them socialize because then they'd be even more ill-equipped to survive on their own. You can't even stop them from being on YouTube or Til Tok or Instagram reels or you'll be considered a fascist. Maybe some crazy political movement that was normally considered extremely taboo to us today will be the norm for the youths of tomorrow.

Anyways, good luck on this endeavor should you choose to go through it. It's admirable to want to take up this responsibility but many who try wind up getting burnt out so it's important to temper your expectations.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,592
I think you're approaching it the most responsible way you can. I don't hate people who have children. Many of my friends do have kids and I think they're doing a great job of raising them. As far as I know, so far so good. So, I just hope for the best when I see people with children or, I know they want them.

Me personally, I think it's a blessing on both of us that I didn't have children. I don't have the finances. I don't have a positive attitude towards life to pass on to them. It wouldn't have been a good mix.

All I would query is- presumably, you have suicidal thoughts? What if they intensify after having the child? Would you not be worried that you would leave them or, have a strong desire to CTB again? Or, are you hoping that new focus in life would change everything? I mean, maybe it would but honestly, I guess the idea of having a child as an emotional crutch troubles me. You don't sound like that though. You sound like your focus would be in giving them the best chance at life possible. Still- in terms of losing a parent- it sucks. My Mum died of cancer when I was 3. So, I guess my bias is with the child. If there's a (strong) possibility it may be abandoned, personally- no, I don't think it's fair to have it.

But to be fair, I am an antinatilist at heart, so I do have quite an unfair bias. I'd completely agree that it's not a 'normal' way to think but then, I'm not exactly 'normal'. Another good reason not to pass that shit on (for me anyhow.)
 
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Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
@Forever Sleep
I understand. I definitely won't have children as long as I'm feeling unstable and just bad in general. And while I'm contemplating suicide? Hell no. That should be criminal. Put a bullet in my brain if that ever crosses my mind.
There is just a lot that happened to me in this year and I'm more hopeful I guess. I just like to play with the idea. I'm 21 it's not like I have to decide any time soon. And yes I can't pretend I don't want to be a mother but I'm responible enough to not have that influence my decision. Apart from that starting the whole debate in me of course.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,592
@Forever Sleep
I understand. I definitely won't have children as long as I'm feeling unstable and just bad in general. And while I'm contemplating suicide? Hell no. That should be criminal. Put a bullet in my brain if that ever crosses my mind.
There is just a lot that happened to me in this year and I'm more hopeful I guess. I just like to play with the idea. I'm 21 it's not like I have to decide any time soon. And yes I can't pretend I don't want to be a mother but I'm responible enough to not have that influence my decision. Apart from that starting the whole debate in me of course.

It's natural- I'm sure to want to mother children. I think you're being so responsible about it too. I wish more people gave it that level of thought! I doubt many do. I guess the majority of people have good intentions at least but I think it's important to consider worst case scenarios and how you'd deal with them too.

That's the irony I find in all this. Many of us here have likely been contemplating suicide for years, even decades. How do I do it and limit the impact it will have on my loved ones? How much will it impact my loved ones? Can I bear to do that to them? Should I wait then? I just find it weird in a way that we are riddled with these questions and guilt for many years sometimes, when I doubt our parents took too long to come to the decision that they wanted children. I guess it's only the minority that end up suicidal though. But anyhow- sorry- that's my own personal vent.

I wish you well, whatever you decide.
 
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M

Meteora

Ignorance is bliss
Jun 27, 2023
1,351
I personally decided not to have kids, even if I love them and yes, it was a very very hard decision, very painful. I know, I m emotionally not stable enough to face that challenge and I couldnt live up to my own values. To (healthily) raise a child is probably the most challenging thing on earth, I guess.
Also I would ve never wanted to be a single parent and I am well aware of how difficult relationships can be.

I don't think it is a good goal to want to raise them to "more than average". That's very dangerous and can cause so many problems right up to addiction.
 
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Bianka

Bianka

No longer human
Jan 16, 2024
178
I don't think it is a good goal to want to raise them to "more than average". That's very dangerous and can cause so many problems right up to addiction.
I guess it depends on what is concidered "more than average"
"Man is something that shall be overcome. Man is a rope tied between beast and superhuman - a rope over the abyss. What is great in man that he is a bridge not an end."
That's Nietzsche. I guess I won't suprise you that he's heavily influencing me. But no one thaught me how to live. No one taught me to seek knowledge the will to try to understad myself and the world. I took a 180° as soon as I started to learn. Not to blindly accept outdated values, expectations and circumstances. To separate the mind from body to be aware of the flaws of human nature. The world opened up, the possibilities opened up.
I feel like if given the right base to support the achievements challenges hopes and crushed dreams the world is lying at your feet.
I don't want to religiously teach them my beliefs. They would be meaningless anyways if I hadn't read and study the complete opposite views. I want them to have the potencial and knowledge to build their own values, capitalize on life and with seemingly miniscule things bring humanity forward. Saying these things it might feel like I want them to be Einstein or having them find the cure for cancer but no. Just advocating for a world that's inhabitad with rational mindful people. Slowly moving forward. Not just for humanity's sake but most importantly for their own. By them being happy and fulfilled based on something that matters they already contributed to evolution. Just as I'm trying to.
 
Ambivalent1

Ambivalent1

We have such sights to show you 👁️
Apr 17, 2023
2,605
The world is careening into jupiter due to the excess of weight brought on by new children.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

The drip finally stops
Oct 21, 2023
986
The world is going to shit right now and having children means risking them having to be the ones to suffer the consequences of our past generations actions. "Humanity always survives" is a dumb argument too. "Surviving" doesn't equate to a good life. Surviving can, and usually does, mean having to through a lot of trauma and hardships in order to stay alive. With the worsening state of world, from climate change, the growing wealth gap, late-stage capitalism, growing political divides, etc, things aren't likely going to get better anytime soon. A growing number of people are opting to not have kids as a result of how bleak the future looks right now.

Having children also has nothing to do with believing that people can change or that we can improve our lives. Studying beforehand isn't going to be enough to do anything. Raising and teaching children in practice is very different from raising and teaching them in theory. Even with knowledge on child cognitive development, that usually isn't enough. Children require a lot of patience and understanding, and I mean A LOT, and how a child sees the world and processes things can differ greatly from child to child. I've seen plenty of cases of people who've done all the same shit that you are planning to do, only to raise children who end up becoming dysfunctional traumatized adults. Having children in order to prove something, whether that be to yourself or others, usually doesn't end very well. Children aren't things for you to play around with in order to prove your point or to help with you trauma. Just because you believe that you are capable of something doesn't mean you are. Most parents think that they are emotionally and financially capable of raising children and look at how most these people treat them. Do you know how nany cases there are of people losing their finanical stability due to things completely out of their control? Do you know how many parents there who thought they were emotionally capable of handling children until they had their own? You are already thinking of them as little play things you can use to provide yourself with happiness and prove a point, rather than as actual human beings.

"What if they are the happiest people on earth"? Ignoring how it would be extremely difficult to even evaluate that, what are the chances that you'll actually raise someone who will grow up to be one of the happiest people on earth? You are more likely going to end up raising another unhappy dysfunctional person, like what most parents do, than you are to raise one of the happiest most well-adjusted people to ever exist.

Even if you were somehow the greatest parent out there, you still cannot control the shit that goes on around the world. You can't garauntee that you won't accidently mess up in some way and traumatize them for the rest of their life, you can't stop them from potentially being harmed by others, you can't fix all the societal issues going on right now, you can't stop them from having to deal with the pressure that comes from the expectations and responsibilities that society pushes on to them, you cannot garuauntee that they won't end up inherenting any potential medical or pyschological issues, etc. Hell, there are people on here who have had good lives and are incredibly fortunate but still want to ctb. I still want to ctb and I have good parents, a good family, a good life, no prior trauma, no medical issues, and no mental illnesses. I've wanted to die since I was 8.

I don't consider myself an antinatalist, I'm not making this post to insult you or make you feel bad, but deciding to have childten is an inherently selfish decision and even your reasoning for it just reflects your own selfish desires. You seem to want children to prove something to yourself. You want to have them because you think you'd like it. You are no different from the selfish people you look down on.
 
Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
828
But you do you, I don't even blame my parents for having me. It can't really be helped.
My mom is slaving away for me, and I still torture her because abortions are free in the [post-]Soviet Ukraine. You never know if you have a genetic abomination incel autist for a son. A huge warning to any belly-dweller-lovers, body horror enthusiasts! (Yes, I'm an incel that hates children, I'd only go for non-procreative sex.)

I don't like the argument "we will die in like a hundred thousand years so it doesn't matter". I want to believe we have the potencial for a better world.
Well, the future might be so good that we alive today are gonna live for thousands of years now, but that's an argument against kids, too.

I'm pretty sure people responding to you are all pressed to be positive about it. And it's not like I have the grounds to be hateful. People breed all the time, it would be foolish to dissuade a person who has a basic modicum of self-awareness, and thus would be the best candidate for parenting. But my main argument is that too many things are out of an individual's control.

And in the end, by multiplying, you have to be comfortable with boiling your kid alive for your own shits and giggles. If your child has a brain tumour, it was effectively you that put it in his head. And so on. Sick stuff, worse than paedophilia, imHo. But who am I to judge the power-tripping sadists? I don't.
 
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R_N

R_N

-Memento Mori-
Dec 3, 2019
1,410
My mom is slaving away for me, and I still torture her because abortions are free in the [post-]Soviet Ukraine. You never know if you have a genetic abomination incel autist for a son. A huge warning to any belly-dweller-lovers, body horror enthusiasts! (Yes, I'm an incel that hates children, I'd only go for non-procreative sex.)
I love children in the sense that I feel empathy towards them. They are too vulnerable and at everyones mercy.

Regarding your mom, I don't think it serves any purpose for you to do that. It just causes more suffering. You can live without torturing her especially if she cares about you like that.

I know it's hard, but why make it harder?
 
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Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
828
I love children in the sense that I feel empathy towards them. They are too vulnerable and at everyones mercy.
I'd rather see them as worms, serial killers in the making. Nothing against serial killers, however! It's just they're part of the cycle of life.

You can live without torturing her especially if she cares about you like that.
I'm somewhat overdramatising it, because people usually downplay their faults (or go the opposite way, falling prey to irrational self-derision).
 
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theboy

theboy

Visionary
Jul 15, 2022
2,816
Sometimes I feel like it too, but sometimes I don't
 

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