Marcy, maybe you should choose another method. I discovered propofol on this site. I had no IV experience when I took it. I started reading about anesthesia and I loved it. I was in no rush for CTB. I did IV exercises. I've done many drip IV infusion setups and flow rate testing. This was a challenge for me and now not hard to do because I have enough experience. It takes time to experience about IV. This is really not an easy method. Especially this is not easy to manage when SI kicks.
Ya I just might.
Also I would like to note that the previous link which discusses pain associated with thioental dosage, the route of administration was intraperitoneal injection which skips the intravenous/whole vein IV administration part and possibly any pain associated with that route. However based on the above article maybe it can be said that the thiopental may still cause some pain or discomfort when it gets to where it needs to for it to metabolize itself but I could be wrong about this. And if that is correct, with intravenous administration maybe we're looking at initial pain and another surge of pain or discomfort afterwards.
I was thinking maybe making the dosage more concentrated by using the same 30g or may 29.5g (I might do a trial with 0.5g or less at a similar or exact same high concentration as the actual dosage for later). The idea is to mix 30g thiopental in 75ml saline solution. The concentration will be 400mg/ml. I'll have to use 2.5ml for to reconstruct each vial containing 1g sodium thiopental powder. Not sure if 2.5ml is enough fluid for 1g. It would nice to find sodium thiopental solubility in 0.9% saline solution. I was unable to find 0.9% saline solubility for thiopental. I found some articles mentioning water solubility:
go.drugbank.com
| Water Solubility | 0.049 mg/mL |
The above contradicts with ppeh guidelines for sodium thiopental which suggests 10g/10,000mg in 50ml water where the concentration would be 200mg/ml. Maybe my math is wrong.
free on-line logP logD logS logW pKa calculation prediction
www.vcclab.org
Solubility: Freely soluble in water and ethanol (~750 g/l) TS; practically insoluble in ether R
What does it mean by "TS" and "R" here?
Based on the above the highest concentration can be somewhere around 750mg/ml
I don't get it, here again the suggested concentration is much lower
So if I'm not mistaken none of the above matches? or am I wrong?
The AVMA Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals considers injection of barbiturates to be an acceptable method of euthanasia in rodents but states there is a potential for pain when administered intraperitoneally. This study examined the potential for ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The 390-mg/mL solution was a commercially available euthanasia solution that does not contain phenytoin (Fatal-Plus, Vortech Pharmaceuticals, Dearborn, MI)
This solution has other compounds which is not found in 0.9% Sodium Chloride IV bags. I don't know but maybe those compounds makes a difference regarding pain or how it interacts when compared to sodium thioepental mixed with 0.9% Sodium Chloride/normal saline solution.
I can try experimenting with maybe 1/2 vials to try and figure out the solubility but I don't want to waste too much of it.
Now new question is whether sodium thiopental is soluble at the following concentration of 1g/2.5ml
Also another question, if I manage to do it at the above concentration or whichever works, can I safely do a trial with thiopental only at low dosage of around 400/500mg (at whichever concentration it works)?
Like maybe idk just use a injection of it and try to make note of pain, discomfort or any other feelings and try to make note from the time its administered to falling unconscious as well as when consciousness is back again.
If its too risky maybe I can do the trial with 50mg/ml which would require 10ml for 500mg. However at this concentration the total dosage with 30g thiopental would be 600ml which I think is a lot and would take almost 40-50mins (more or less) to administer all of it. It feels like too long and asking for complications. It should be noted the difference is that the mice were unable to move when the drug was being administered while for me I'll be able to move and that leaves room for complications. And most importantly if this dosage isn't sufficient enough, maybe I just go on a long coma and wake up a week later at a hospital with my arms and legs tied to the bed cuz the concentration of the dosage was too low.
Or I just go with the initial dosage as suggested in ppeh guide which has concentration of 200mg/ml. Maybe I'll try 400mg/ml or 500mg/2.5ml.
If none of it is ideal and doesn't seem viable, and moving to a different method I can think of a few ideas:
What about using vecuronium 60mg/30ml as sole agent? how reliable is it? Some pain and panic but ultimately once the drug is administered not much can be done about it. If not found, it may result in death. is this correct and is 60mg enough?
I've also found some evidence which suggests that lidocaine can be used with vecuronium
ekja.org
120 patients who were scheduled for elective surgery were randomly assigned in 6 groups (Group I, II, III, IL, IIL, IIIL). For groups I, II and III vecuronium was administered only 0.10 mg/kg, 0.12 mg/kg, and 0.15 mg/kg, respectively. For each member of groups IL, IIL and IIIL, lidocaine 1.5 mg/kg was added to the dose of vecuronium of groupI, II and III. The vecuronium or vecuronium- lidocaine mixture was injected for 15 seconds
CONCULUSIONS: The results suggest that administration of a vecuronium-lidocaine mixture administraion improves the intubation condition score during a rapid sequence induction of general anesthesia and shortens the time of the disapprearance of the TOF response.
This may help make things faster as well as reduce any possible pain from the administration of vecuronium itself (not sure how it would interact with the pain but the above article does say it makes things faster).
Ideally it would nice to use vecuronium and thiopental both (I've both) but there's risk of precipitation when they mix together which may render one or the other or both drugs ineffective or may result in other complications. Idk how by myself I can do both. One idea is to use a tourniquet set tightly around elbow (before or after) and thiopental is to be administered in the same arm and then saline flush. Afterwards vecuronium is to be administered on the other arm. Now some delay between vecuronium and tourniquet release would be nice and ideal. However due to the risk of getting the other arm paralyzed before being able to open the tourniquet I'm guessing I'll probably have to release the tourniquet on the other arm right away. This too I think may have the risk of precipitation or maybe I'm wrong.
Or I go with SN following the guidelines of ppeh and/or stan's, both of which leaves chances of failure or other complications due to vomit.
Or SN following the guidelines and right after SN (if I don't vomit) administer either thiopental or vecuronium iva IV route.
SN With thiopental may result in being unconscious rather quickly but the chances of vomiting is still there even while unconscious. And also that means no chances of taking another SN drink and possibly getting caught with no explanation and getting hospitalized.
SN with vecuronium leaves unknown interaction with vomiting(idk how paralyzed person vomit or if they can) may result in being paralyzed and chocking in vomit as well as suffocation at the same time resulting in extreme discomfort and possibly pain and panic. And ofcourse if for whatever reasons it doesn't work where vomiting does occur somehow, there'll be no chances of taking another SN drink due to paralysis and If someone hears the sound of vomiting and gets curious that could complicate things cuz I won't be able to respond while being paralyzed and the possiblity involuntary hospitalization seems inevitable after that.
It comes down to figure out a way to make one of the above work somehow
Or, make thiopental work somehow
Or, SN following the guidelines and taking chances with vomiting and any complications that may follow
Or, vecuronium as a sole agent (provided the dosage is right and administration is done properly)
