How do we determinists approach the CTB?

[Dead Ghost]

I am a 100% determinist, which means that even facing the CTB or this writing itself has not been a personal decision of mine. It is complicated then to ask others and explain how we feel about it if the feelings are not genuinely our own....

So, I ask you (even if the answers have been decided all along), how do you understand doing the CTB in a deterministic world, what would be its real purpose, and why all this?

I also understand that the fact that there is a structure (the universe) and an already defined plot of everything that has happened, happens and will happen, more than conditions the possibility of something superior that is responsible, while also denying it if the natural order of things does not contemplate free will, simply because it is that things must necessarily be so, without any will, in a simple way.

What do you think?

//

Com encarem el CTB els deterministes?

Sóc determinista al 100%, i això vol dir que fins hi tot afrontar el CTB o aquest mateix escrit no ha estat una decisió personal meva. És complicat doncs preguntar als altres i explicar que sentim al respecte si els sentiments no són genuinament nostres,...

Així doncs, us pregunto (encara que les respostes ja hagin estat decidides desde sempre), com enteneu fer el CTB en un món determinista? quina finalitat real tindría? i per què tot plegat?.

Entenc també que el fet que hi hagi una estructura (l'univers) i una trama ja definida de tot el que ha passat, passa i passarà, condiciona en escreix la posibilitat d'una cosa superior que en sigui responsable, alhora que també la nega si l'ordre natural de les coses no contempla el lliure albir, simplement doncs es que les coses han de ser necessàriament així, sense cap tipus de voluntat, de forma simple.

Que en penseu?

 

[TempusFugit]

Personally I feel like determinism itself doesn't contradict the idea of having personal decisions, only that our personal motives and emotions were the effect of simple causality. Like we have will but it's just not free.

 

[Darkover]

The quantum universe is fundamentally probabilistic, unlike the deterministic universe described by classical physics
Quantum physics holds that certain events such as radioactive decay and movement of particles are completely random when taken at the level of single atoms or smaller.
in other words the universe is not deterministic

 

[TempusFugit]

The quantum universe is fundamentally probabilistic, unlike the deterministic universe described by classical physics
Quantum physics holds that certain events such as radioactive decay and movement of particles are completely random when taken at the level of single atoms or smaller.
in other words the universe is not deterministic

This isn't my strong suite but doesn't the introduction of randomness into the order of events also oppose free will? Randomness is the opposite of determinism but it still removes any semblance of free will because there's no real choice to be made in randomness. It's the equivalent of throwing dice to follow.

 

[Darkover]

This isn't my strong suite but doesn't the introduction of randomness into the order of events also oppose free will? Randomness is the opposite of determinism but it still removes any semblance of free will because there's no real choice to be made in randomness. It's the equivalent of throwing dice to follow.

Randomness, the operation of mere chance, clearly excludes control. First, everything that happens in the world is either determined or not. Second, if everything is determined, there is no free will. For then every action would be fixed by earlier events, indeed events that took place before the actor was born. i believe i have free will to choose wherever i have a cup of tea or coffee and the universe is not deterministic

 

[Shivali]

I think there is no free will. If I have had free will my life would be in other conditions, I think.... little things like putting the teacup on the table sometimes working. But sometimes not ... no, there is not really a choice....

 

[unnormal9]

I think (know) I want to die.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

There's free will. Your life is determined by a number of factors, and it is ultimately up to you to decide if you wish to play with the hand that was dealt. You can try to maneuver your way through life in spite of the bad hand, or you can quit while you're behind.

Not all hands are playable.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I suppose the idea of fate is appealing when I'm feeling especially lazy and when I don't want to take responsibilty for my failures- as in- well- it all happened for a reason. I also have a slightly spiritual bent- which makes things like fate and fortune telling fascinating.

I suppose I don't really like the idea of determinalism overall though really because I think we ARE and SHOULD be held accountable for our actions. If determinalism is a real thing- then murderers, rapists and peodophiles aren't personally responsible because they were fated to turn out like that- when I think they ARE personally responsible. It may not be their fault that they have the urges to do those things. It may not be their fault that they have less empathy than others. Deep down though- they must realise it's wrong but they choose to do it anyway- and ruin other people's lives- in order to fulfil their own needs.

I think when it comes to CTB- it's true that some people's lives are just SO difficult and so filled with tragedy and trauma- it does seem as if the universe is pushing them towards CTB. Still- from my perspective- my life would be very tolerable for some people. IF I do CTB one day- I feel it will be from choice- not because I was fated to do it. I suppose it's always been important for me to own my decisions in life- even when they have been unwise decisions. I think it's especially important to be sure about the decision to CTB.

I suppose I do put so much value on this idea of autonomy in life- and death. To an extent- I realise it is an illusion. Our lives are so dictated by what genes we are blessed/cursed with, what financial situation we find ourselves in etc etc. Still- I like to think I do have the power to change my life to a certain extent. Encompassing the ability to end it. I suppose it's important to me that it's my choice to do these things though- not that my life is somehow already mapped out somewhere. What would be the point of living it if it were all predetermined?

 

[jorheslen428]

It's something I've thought about, as I also believe that the universe is deterministic to a point (quantum mechanics adding some randomness), and that our experience of the world and everything in it, including our sense of self and actions are not "free".

I guess for me at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, as I still hold a conception of autonomy and prefer that I have what that entails (control over my body and life) as to not having it. Even if my decision to die is not "free" in the grand scheme of the universe, as in there was no other way for that not to happen, it still feels like an autonomous decision because I spent time pondering if it was the best decision I could make in light of current and probable future circumstances.

TLDR: Even if we don't actually have "free will", it still feels like we do (at least sometimes)

 

[Dead Ghost]

I know of people who could see the future at will (will?, mmmh), starting from this base and taking into account that they could not see anything that did not have to happen nor did they have the possibility to change what had to happen, I find irrefutable that we live in a deterministic universe.

What I don't understand is why some people are determined to be aware of this, is it a bug? or are we the puppets of a power struggle? or is it just right that it should be? and what is the purpose of living? and the purpose or purpose of death?

As they said above, it is very difficult to believe that people's bad actions are not their responsibility and have been predetermined. Seen from this point of view, the illusion of free will would only serve as decoration to hide all the machinery that is behind this immense play.

And where is the CTB? a will by imposition.

//

Jo se de gent que podía veure el futur a voluntat (voluntat?, mmmh), partint d'aquesta base i tenint en compte que no podien veure res que no hagués de passar ni tenien la possibilitat de canviar el que havía de passar, trobo irrefutable que vivim en un univers determinista.

El que no entenc es perquè s'ha determinat que algunes persones siguin conscients d'això, és un error? o som els titelles d'una lluïta de poders? o simplement és correcte que sigui així? i quina és la finalitat de viure? i la finalitat o el propósit de la mort?

Es com han dit més amunt, costa molt de païr que les males accions de les persones no siguin responsabilitat seva i hagin estat predeterminades. Vist desde aquest punt de vista, la il·lusió del lliure albir només serviría com a decoració per amagar tota la maquinària que està darrera d'aquesta immensa obra de teatre.

I el CTB on queda? una voluntat per imposició.

 

[Pluto]

What do you think?

I sometimes think about this. Sources that I respect vary quite a bit on this issue, covering pretty much the whole spectrum.

Some, like theologian Neale Donald Walsch, argue that free will is the whole point of life; even though certain events are highly probable and may be predicted by people with precognition, they can be changed. Other answers are nuanced and do not commit to a black-and-white position. Still others, like Ramana Maharshi, firmly deny free will.

The question of determinism is itself contingent upon a more fundamental question of identity. In other words, who are you that does or does not have free will? Normally this goes completely unquestioned but there is again a spectrum of possible answers.

1) As the physical body and mind, of course there is free will and we make choices every day. The downside: our minds are highly conditioned from when we are powerless yet highly absorbent young children by other people. This, along with biological/psychological programming, gives rise to our everyday sense of self, the content of our thoughts and our endless dramas.

2) From the perspective of a 'soul' that is the ineffable essence of the individual - the invisible one driving the 'car' of the body - I do not know how to approach a debate about determinism. Too much is unclear about its nature, its motivations and its relationship with the body. Still, this is another, intermediate interpretation of identity.

3) At a cosmic level, there is just the universe (or, if you prefer, only consciousness). As nothing is truly separate from the whole, free will is an absurdity since there is no individual self to have it. A mighty, macrocosmic entity inseparable from us may be calling the shots, and/or the process could be unfolding automatically for no reason.

I don't really have a position and I haven't found any practical utility to the question around CTB. The decision is generally made by the apparent individual person which itself may or may not be a hallucination of the brain in the waking state. Yet either way, if the practical experience is truly insufferable, CTB is inevitable.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I have no idea why, and not knowing is extremely frustrating. "Mysterious ways" and all that. Except I'm not religious lol. But I agree about determinism (see my username ). There must be a reason why this particular reality manifested, to the exclusion of all the others which we can imagine. And many alternatives (counterfactuals) don't concern human choice, so "free will" cannot be used as an explanation. For example, the alternate reality where it rained yesterday (where I live, it did not).

 

[Forever Sleep]

As they said above, it is very difficult to believe that people's bad actions are not their responsibility and have been predetermined. Seen from this point of view, the illusion of free will would only serve as decoration to hide all the machinery that is behind this immense play.

I do find your outlook perplexing really. Still- it seems like you're far better read than me- so, I'm sure there is science behind it all. Life is a mystery too- so I guess anything could be possible.

Still- what I'm most curious about is: do the concepts of good and bad exist in your world? I suppose there could still be good and bad actions but if there is no choice- then, presumably- there is no moral weight- no person is at fault for choosing to do something bad- because they didn't choose it?

Why do you suppose it's important for us to experience our lives if they are all predetermined? Do you believe there is something within us trying to experience different lives- reincarnation- as some kind of lesson? Presumbly- if there is a creator- they already know what our lives hold in store. That's one scenario that makes a sort of sense to me. Like- life is just a course- a series of lessons that are supposed to shape us. (Into what I don't know and to what end seems even harder to conceptualize.) That- whatever it is- spirit, soul needs to actually experience life- and all sorts of different lives to learn- some with some really bad events in.

Still- good and bad are largely human concepts. Where does religion and the notion of sin fit into all this though? Presumably- all the religions of the world were predetermined to come about too. Why teach people that their choices carry moral weight- if there actually is no choice at all?

 

[avaruus]

The quantum universe is fundamentally probabilistic, unlike the deterministic universe described by classical physics
Quantum physics holds that certain events such as radioactive decay and movement of particles are completely random when taken at the level of single atoms or smaller.
in other words the universe is not deterministic

We don't know enough about quantum physics to say much about the determinism of the universe. We don't even know if quantum mechanics is truly random, which is why the current consensus is that the universe is deterministic.

 

[Dead Ghost]

I do find your outlook perplexing really. Still- it seems like you're far better read than me- so, I'm sure there is science behind it all. Life is a mystery too- so I guess anything could be possible.

I am not educated at all and there is no science behind my words, only direct knowledge about it.

Still- what I'm most curious about is: do the concepts of good and bad exist in your world? I suppose there could still be good and bad actions but if there is no choice- then, presumably- there is no moral weight- no person is at fault for choosing to do something bad- because they didn't choose it?

Exactly, good and evil do not exist, and that means for example that no one is responsible for leading soldiers to a war in which they will die when this war was already going to happen before the participants were born. No one is responsible for the invention of the atomic bomb, the Internet or dismembering another person.
The concepts of good and evil are proper to religions that are structured on free will, such as Christianity. Evidently, if you believe in determinism, it makes no sense to consider the existence of a Christian God, because that religion is based above all on giving responsibility to the actions of people.

Why do you suppose it's important for us to experience our lives if they are all predetermined? Do you believe there is something within us trying to experience different lives- reincarnation- as some kind of lesson? Presumbly- if there is a creator- they already know what our lives hold in store. That's one scenario that makes a sort of sense to me. Like- life is just a course- a series of lessons that are supposed to shape us. (Into what I don't know and to what end seems even harder to conceptualize.) That- whatever it is- spirit, soul needs to actually experience life- and all sorts of different lives to learn- some with some really bad events in.

This is precisely what I don't know yet, why. And it really scares me a lot, for I fear both that we have chosen before we were born the life we live, and that we are simply slaves who only do service to the purpose of something else. I would like there to be nothing after we die, but in a deterministic universe perhaps it is forcing things too much in the face of the evidence that everything is too structured.
And hence the concern about CTB, who or what would go through the head of forcing us to suffer a life in which everything is predestined and end it by killing ourselves...I think free will is not as exaggeratedly cruel as determinism.

Still- good and bad are largely human concepts. Where does religion and the notion of sin fit into all this though? Presumably- all the religions of the world were predetermined to come about too. Why teach people that their choices carry moral weight- if there actually is no choice at all?

Some deterministic religions (generally polytheistic) do not hide that good and evil have divine sources (I have read very little information about it, that is to say, very little because it is difficult for me to read books that talk about this, they are too dense for my reading comprehension). On the other hand, the most widespread monotheistic religions, based on free will, do not even want to hear that the origin of evil is a god, so they promote the idea of free will ... but of course, how does a religion that promotes the idea of free will fit in a deterministic universe? is that the scriptwriter does not charge enough or just trying to make the story more interesting by making it as convoluted as possible?

I have many doubts about everything and I know that the day I die I will get a clear answer, either because I disappear completely at that moment or because I discover that I have a function, even after I die (for me or for someone else).

//

No sóc pas gens culte i no hi ha ciència darrera les meves paraules, només coneixement directe sobre això.

Exacte, el bé i el mal no existeixen, i això vol dir per exemple que ningú és responsable de dirigir soldats a una guerra on moriràn quan aquesta guerra ja anava a succeïr abans que neixessin els participants. Ningú és responsable de la invenció de la bomba atómica, d'Internet o de esquarterar una altre persona.
Els conceptes del bé i del mal són propis de les religions que s'estructuren en el lliure albir, com el cristianisme. Evidentment si creus en el determinisme no té sentit plantejar-se l'existència d'un Déu cristià, perquè aquesta religió es fonamenta sobretot en donar responsabilitat a les accions de les persones.

Això que comentes és precisament el que no se encara, el per què. I realment m'espanta molt, doncs temo tant que haguem escollit abans de néixer la vida que vivim, com que simplement siguem esclaus que només fem servei al propósit d'alguna altre cosa. M'agradaria que no hi hagués res de res després de morir, pero en un univers determinista potser és forçar massa les coses davant l'evidència que tot està massa estructurat.
I d'aquí ve la preocupació pel CTB, a qui o que se li pasaria pel cap d'obligar-nos a patir una vida en la qual està tot predestinat i acabar-la matant-nos nosaltres mateixos?... crec que el lliure albir no és tan exageradament cruel com el determinisme.

Algunes religions deterministes (generalment politeistes) no amaguen que el bé i el mal tenen fonts divines (He llegit poquíssima informació al respecte, és a dir, molt per sobre perquè em costa llegir llibres que parlin sobre això, son densos per la meva comprenssió lectora). Em canvi les religions monoteístes més exteses, basades en el lliure albir, no volen ni sentir parlar que l'origen del mal sigui un déu, per això fomenten la idea del lliure albir.. però esclar, com encaixa l'existència d'una religió que fomenta la idea del lliure albir en un univers determinista? és que el guionista no cobra prou o només tracta de fer la història més interessant enrevessant-la al màxim?

Jo tinc molts dubtes respecte a tot, i se que el día que em mori obtindré una clara resposta, o bé perquè desaparegui del tot en aquell instant o bé perquè descobreixi que cumpleixo una funció, inclos després de morir (per a mi o per a algú altre).



* I remind you that I put the translation in my language because otherwise it would be impossible for me to follow my own answers and as I said again if there is a translation error I can always find out that it has gone wrong in the answer that I do not understand from another person regarding something that I have mistranslated.
//
Us recordo que poso la traducció al meu idioma perquè si no em resultaría impossible seguir les meves própies respostes i com ja vaig dir una altre vegada si hi ha un error de traducció sempre puc esbrinar que ha sortit malament en la resposta que no comprengui per part d'una altre persona respecte alguna cosa que jo hagi traduït malament.

 

[Superdeterminist]

We don't know enough about quantum physics to say much about the determinism of the universe. We don't even know if quantum mechanics is truly random

I definitely agree with that.

which is why the current consensus is that the universe is deterministic.

I can't say for certain, but it really seems like the consensus is the opposite. I say this because I have listened to many different physicists talk online, and most of them seem to argue in favour of indeterminism, not determinism. But I don't care about the consensus anyway, it doesn't influence my belief, personally.