Discussion How are people ok with not knowing where the hell we came from?

[leavingthesoultrap]

Everything scientists tell us about universe is just theories.
We don't where we are and why we are here. It all might be some experiment sort of like the 'Truman show'

 

[SexyIncél]

Our existence is incredibly weird.

"The world around us redunds with opportunities, explodes with opportunities, which nearly all folk ignore because it would require them to violate a habit of thought" — Harry Potter & the Methods of Rationality

Perhaps you might enjoy that story

This is why I studied philosophy, anthropology & so on. Especially how to act effectively in an odd universe where there's a combinatorial explosion of possibilities in tiny spaces

 

[yeh it's all gucci]

Like black holes. They seem terrifying. But then- it does make sense to me that a universe could come out of a black hole.

 

[Tears in Rain]

They don't "ignore it". It's as well explained as we can explain it with out current understanding of physics.

Ok, they don't ignore it, they just say it magically happened.

Simulation theory is a pop topic now. Explains nothing.

That's one way of looking at it. Another, is that it explains everything. Maybe it's the only thing that fits.

Simulation theory is a pop topic now. Explains nothing. Same recursive problem, turtles all the way down, but where did god come from etc. However, simulation theory can help us to imagine there is a system running with physics/rules within. The movie 'The Matrix' panders to our anthropocentric/narcissistic 'main character' syndrome where we are somehow more real or special than our surroundings and magically able to escape our predicament (to another layer of Matrix?).

But within a system of rules (physics, our human attempt to understand nature's rules), how would anything in that system transcend the system?

That movie might be about transcending the system, but some say it's an allegory about transcending your own personal reality/personality.

people don't ask themselves these existential questions (or at least not that often). they just don't care or are satisfied with not knowing.

Exactly. They're more interested in important things, like where Kate Middleton is.

 

[TopChicken]

I guess I mean life as well as intelligent life. I always thought that there must be something else out there, but where, and why haven't they contacted us yet? Maybe they don't want to? I guess the universe is so vast that they could be anywhere

There are literally trillions of galaxies with billions of stars, and its now thought that most stars have planets. We definitely aren't alone, but space mechanics really do preclude communication or travel over such mind boggling distances.

 

[Pluto]

It helps to discard the questions based on false premises. Where do we come from?

1) If "we" means identifying with physical bodies in spacetime:
* Can space come from a particular place?
* Did time originate at a particular point in time?

Surely, this is barking up the wrong tree.

2) If "we" means consciousness:
* Spacetime, including the body, appears before consciousness (you), so could that make consciousness (you) more fundamental?
* What are the boundaries of consciousness in either duration or location? The very concept of limitation exists in the human mind as another momentary appearance; an intellectual/conceptual object called thought.

From this line of reasoning, consciousness exists beyond spacetime and is not subject to the same limitations as physical objects with their distinguishing characteristics (size, shape, colour, texture, location, duration, trajectory, etc.). Then, it must follow that the intellect is the wrong tool for the job. The human brain may be more powerful than a pocket calculator, but both are unsuited for any discussions of existence outside of the spacetime in which they appear.

Therefore, the only satisfactory answer to this question will take the form of a profound revelation - not a mere belief or idea - that eliminates all the perceived limitations around identifying with the body. This is the goal of self-inquiry and other such practices.

 

[escape_from_hell]

From this line of reasoning, consciousness exists beyond spacetime and is not subject to the same limitations as physical objects with their distinguishing characteristics (size, shape, colour, texture, location, duration, trajectory, etc.). Then, it must follow that the intellect is the wrong tool for the job.

It surely does exist beyond spacetime (3d spatial + 1d time) dimensional constraints. Mathematicians and physicists account for more dimensions (though if you read about what exactly they are it is not easy to wrap one's head around or that the top minds truly understand 100%).

Just as a rock extends physical presence in x,y,z dimensions and persists through time, your brain (plus its electrical activity in its networks, neurotransmitters, and so forth) may be extending presence into other dimensions. It is tempting to call them consciousness dimensions as something distinct from the physical surroundings with which we are familiar: hard physical things, and it is moving in space over time in a sequence.

Qualia are taking place somehow and for lack of a better word somewhere. Many of these sensations of experience even have gradients: from hot to cold (corresponding to our senses interpreting thermal vibrations), anxious to relaxed, happy to sad...Then there are even meta gradients, such as levels of enjoyment based on the overall balance of other sensations, like our overall well-being or how delicious we perceive a dish based on its levels of sweet, salty, etc. So there are the experiences and then additional layers.

This is not scientific, just some internal observations. But my point is that our consciousness might not (I do not know or have answers) be so limitless. In fact you can directly modify it: you can stab yourself in the hand to cause sharp pain, you can orgasm to cause it to have a specific pleasure response over a finite amount of time, we can take drugs that modify mood, perception, thought, and sensation, people can be disabled in many specific ways through brain damage such as being blinded, and finally, we can even 'die' whatever that is.

Just like space and time by all appearances are infinite or at least pretty damn large, but a rock takes up only a finite blip of that space and time, so too maybe our minds/souls/consciousnesses/qualia/witness-observer (all or a combination) are just a blip in what would could be a massive space of consciousness.

It sounds very beautiful to have a deep meditation or psychedelic trip and realize we are all just love and peace and infinite oneness and all that. It sounds very beautiful that we can overcome our limitations. That we can transcend. Transcend what exactly? Sounds like more anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome. We have no idea what the fuck we even are. We don't even know the optimal diet for humans after eating food for hundreds of thousands of years. We don't even know how to not be miserable our whole lives, and a lifetime of struggling to maintain well-being characterizes the lives of almost all animals. Well, we do kind of have an idea: be lucky.

My guess is no human will ever have the answers. Many will reach a good enough point, correct or not, and if they feel confident and faithful it is the truth maybe that is enough. They will have the drive and burning desire to know, innate to their curious nature. Did we want to want to know with our magical and special free will? We definitely seem to want to be special. To be free and magical and transcend, transcend especially our suffering. Maybe hell does not allow for that, though.

 

[DarkRange55]

Philosophers and theologians have asked those questions for ages. I don't think it has much impact on the daily lives of most people.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Our existence is incredibly weird.

I feel like whatever most people have that keeps them from thinking about this is broken within me. I literally think about this every single day and have for as long as I can remember, even as a child.

I never believed any of the religious stories because none of them have ever made sense to me. I was in catholic school up until high school and I was still never convinced. The big bang theory doesn't make sense either because where did the materials before the bang come from? The only thing that does make some sense (to me) is reincarnation, but there's still the question of why and it doesn't explain where we came from in the first place.

WHERE the hell did we really come from? WHY are we here??? Do normal people never think about this? It literally drives me mad and I can't take it anymore. I hate not having answers to anything, but especially this. We're just here, on this planet, doing these things, blindly living these lives.....how and for what? And knowing that there's actually some fascinating story out there about our creation and purpose that we'll never know is really hard to accept.

Some say we get these answers after death. I don't know if thats true, but it really doesn't matter if we do or not since it can't help us in this lifetime and if we really do reincarnate, we just forget it all over again anyway so it's of no use.

Whenever I try to talk to anyone about this, all I get is "why does it matter" or "I'm too busy/have too many other things to worry about to worry about that as well". People just don't seem to care about it and I don't understand how they can not?

Does anyone else also think about this daily?

I don´t think about it daily but have often thought about it. I don´t believe in religion either it doens´t seem logical to me I think there is a way bigger chance that the Simulation Theory is true which would explain where we came from but not the people in the simulation. I have also often thought that humans are so unlike any other animal on this planet that we seem alien so our ancesters might have been placed on this planet for whatever purpose to inhabit it.

I also agree with your disagreement of The Big Bang Theory I find it just as absurd as religion because as you said where did all the materials come from? I have never heard anyone even mentioning that before people just seem to accept that first there was nothing and BANG! Now all the universe is created but from what?

 

[Tears in Rain]

It sounds very beautiful to have a deep meditation or psychedelic trip and realize we are all just love and peace and infinite oneness and all that. It sounds very beautiful that we can overcome our limitations. That we can transcend. Transcend what exactly?

Transcend your own ego/personality.

Sounds like more anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome. We have no idea what the fuck we even are.

You are spirit, having a temporary human experience.

We definitely seem to want to be special.

Yes, ego is always striving to be special.

 

[escape_from_hell]

Transcend your own ego/personality.


You are spirit, having a temporary human experience.


Yes, ego is always striving to be special.

This is not meant to be offensive, so do not take it the wrong way. But we all hear this stuff tirelessly. It is like one more guilt trip.
Rings about as hollow as "Jesus loves you!" and honestly, I really hope you are right and it is true and we will be free one day because hell sucks.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Now all the universe is created but from what?

If the universe is a result of quantum fluctuations in the quantum vacuum then there must have been an imbalance of matter and antimatter bc matter is what still exists in the universe but it's only a tiny bit of what the universe is a as a whole.

Good question what is it that a quark is made of? Now idk whether this is the smallest particle that cannot be divided any more.

 

[Tears in Rain]

This is not meant to be offensive, so do not take it the wrong way. But we all hear this stuff tirelessly. It is like one more guilt trip.
Rings about as hollow as "Jesus loves you!" and honestly, I really hope you are right and it is true and we will be free one day because hell sucks.

What stuff do you hear tirelessly? That you can transcend your own ego?

I think I get what you're saying, the spiritual 'marketplace' is full of airy fairy bullshit. The love and peace nonsense.

But real spirituality isn't about that.

But to get back to what the OP asked, human ego is only interested in striving - striving for power, sex, status, etc. People have no interest in questioning where we come from.

 

[escape_from_hell]

What stuff do you hear tirelessly? That you can transcend your own ego?

I think I get what you're saying, the spiritual 'marketplace' is full of airy fairy bullshit. The love and peace nonsense.

But real spirituality isn't about that.

But to get back to what the OP asked, human ego is only interested in striving - striving for power, sex, status, etc. People have no interest in questioning where we come from.

Yes, that is what is tirelessly professed over and over.
Those contemplating suicide probably at one point or another contemplate the dissolution of their ego, though there would of course be instances of total desperation without such considerations. They have a lot of work and lessons before they can be allowed peace. Overcoming SI is something I have not accomplished yet, so there will be no guru sayings from me. Just doubts.

Interest in questioning where we come from is also the human ego striving. It is literally a desire. An innate one at that. Sense of wonder is one hell of an egotistical emotion causing those experiencing it to consider themselves special. I am betting a good percentage of children fortunate enough to reach the age of curiosity has asked their parents, who brought those kids here without knowing the answer more likely than not by the way, where we come from. I, or I guess my ego, has memories of anxiety and contemplating the infinity of space and causal chains and asking my mom these questions, and being told it is god. Is that the spirituality you are talking about? Or is that not correct. Would like to know about that real stuff.

 

[sserafim]

Philosophers and theologians have asked those questions for ages. I don't think it has much impact on the daily lives of most people.

Wdym? Why not?

 

[Tears in Rain]

Those contemplating suicide probably at one point or another contemplate the dissolution of their ego, though there would of course be instances of total desperation without such considerations.

I wasn't referring to dissolution of ego at death, I was referring to dissolution of ego while alive.

Interest in questioning where we come from is also the human ego striving.

I don't think that question comes from ego striving necessarily. It's just a normal thing to wonder about, given our circumstances. But OP seems to be currently fixated on it, while pretty much everyone else in the population just isn't bothered about it in their everyday lives.

Sense of wonder is one hell of an egotistical emotion causing those experiencing it to consider themselves special.

True sense of wonder isn't an egotistical emotion.

I am betting a good percentage of children fortunate enough to reach the age of curiosity has asked their parents, who brought those kids here without knowing the answer more likely than not by the way, where we come from. I, or I guess my ego, has memories of anxiety and contemplating the infinity of space and causal chains and asking my mom these questions, and being told it is god. Is that the spirituality you are talking about? Or is that not correct. Would like to know about that real stuff.

Is that usual for a young kid to contemplate the infinity of space like you did? Why was there anxiety on your part when contemplating it?

 

[escape_from_hell]

I wasn't referring to dissolution of ego at death, I was referring to dissolution of ego while alive.

They are contemplating this while still alive. Are they just too egotistical, not learning enough lessons, not good enough, not enough wonder to get it all dissolved properly beforehand? Who wants to LET GO more so than the most suicidal?

I don't think that question comes from ego striving necessarily. It's just a normal thing to wonder about, given our circumstances. But OP seems to be currently fixated on it, while pretty much everyone else in the population just isn't bothered about it in their everyday lives.

The other things like power, sex, and status are not normal things to pursue? What makes wonderment so special? Desires of the human ego. Itching to know. Would these humans be more complete if they got an official answer, or would they be left as empty as when these other desires like sex, power, and status are fulfilled. Or is that the distinction?
Maybe it is these masses of population that are not bothered who have transcended their ego. They are free from this burning need to solve these deep mysteries.
Are they just pursuing those other lesser desires like power, sex, and status instead of of that noble special question? Not in their position so not sure if their lives are any better but maybe they just weren't cut out for that big tough mystery. They should keep suffering and be reincarnated over and over till they get over their ego.

True sense of wonder isn't an egotistical emotion.

Not an expert of emotions by any means even my own, as I cannot control my suffering or I would not even be here. But just to clarify I am referring to that 'special' feeling or quality of wonderment stemming from the awe, amazement, connectedness, and expansive awareness. Those 'aha' and 'woah' moments feed the ego differently, or not at all, compared to other satisfying emotions?
I am making a non-scientific, anecdotal observation that a lot of wonderers do seem to find themselves special versus those brutish creatures that do not. But I can't really back it up, so I'm probably wrong, which is okay, because I'm certainly wrong about the whole thing otherwise I'd just enlighten all my misery away and be Buddha already.

Is that usual for a young kid to contemplate the infinity of space like you did? Why was there anxiety on your part when contemplating it?

I do think it is usual for kids to contemplate these questions and ask their parents the big 'why's. May or may not be exactly the same things they are contemplating the prompt the questions. They may not remember all these big questions, long ago giving up on it. I felt anxiety because I was thinking about how none of it really made sense, I was scared, confused, alive, and not supposed to really be here, right?
Maybe they were feeling anxiety like me. How dare they! Keep tryharding at unanswerable cosmic mysteries or else keep burning in hell! But they are wondering. Wondering does not make anyone special. But if it does and I can just meditate more, listen to a guru or other spiritual expert a little bit harder and be free, that would be great. It is also possible this current incarnation/body/mind or whatever is fucked and I'll just have to reborn trillions more times till I figure it out. That's okay I accept that. I mean my dirty ego accepts that. But what I would really like to know if suicide will make me have to live even more of those miserable lives as punishment.

 

[Tears in Rain]

They are contemplating this while still alive. Are they just too egotistical, not learning enough lessons, not good enough, not enough wonder to get it all dissolved properly beforehand? Who wants to LET GO more so than the most suicidal?

We're talking about two different things. You're talking about the ego/personality wanting out of this life, due to whatever suffering they are going through.
That's not what I was referring to.

The other things like power, sex, and status are not normal things to pursue? What makes wonderment so special?

Of course those things are normal for people to pursue, like I said, pretty much everyone is obsessed by those things.
You brought up wonder, I just said that it's possible to experience it in your everyday life.

Are they just pursuing those other lesser desires like power, sex, and status instead of of that noble special question?

Humans are just rats in a maze, programmed zombies. It's not a matter of lesser, or more noble.

But just to clarify I am referring to that 'special' feeling or quality of wonderment stemming from the awe, amazement, connectedness, and expansive awareness.

That's what I was referring to too.
And some people say it is the human birthright to live in everyday awe, connectness, and wonder. But apart from when we're very young, we don't experience those things.

I do think it is usual for kids to contemplate these questions and ask their parents the big 'why's. May or may not be exactly the same things they are contemplating the prompt the questions. They may not remember all these big questions, long ago giving up on it. I felt anxiety because I was thinking about how none of it really made sense, I was scared, confused, alive, and not supposed to really be here, right?
Maybe they were feeling anxiety like me. How dare they! Keep tryharding at unanswerable cosmic mysteries or else keep burning in hell! But they are wondering.

Yes, I get it that kids often ask about the big 'whys', I was just found it interesting that you were asking questions specifically about infinity. That's a big thing for a kid to inquire about. A potentially mind-altering thing to focus on.

Wondering does not make anyone special. But if it does and I can just meditate more, listen to a guru or other spiritual expert a little bit harder and be free, that would be great. It is also possible this current incarnation/body/mind or whatever is fucked and I'll just have to reborn trillions more times till I figure it out. That's okay I accept that. I mean my dirty ego accepts that. But what I would really like to know if suicide will make me have to live even more of those miserable lives as punishment.

Quite a few people on here seem to wonder about reincarnation. Punishment doesn't come into it. It's probably just random luck- of-the-draw why you got this particular life.

 

[LuvMeMusic]

Ok, they don't ignore it, they just say it magically happened.

This isn't the case either. Maybe you should read about it before trying to discredit one of the most widely accepted theories in physics?

 

[escape_from_hell]

We're talking about two different things. You're talking about the ego/personality wanting out of this life, due to whatever suffering they are going through.
That's not what I was referring to.

What are you referring to then, and how does one do it exactly and is 'free will' required? Because I thought you said ego dissolution while alive. Many people have experienced ego dissolution through psychedelics or meditation and come right back. Are you talking about the ever-elusive 'enlightenment'?
Those contemplating suicide or death in general need not be suffering to grapple with the idea of ego dissolution.

Of course those things are normal for people to pursue, like I said, pretty much everyone is obsessed by those things.
You brought up wonder, I just said that it's possible to experience it in your everyday life.
That's what I was referring to too.
And some people say it is the human birthright to live in everyday awe, connectness, and wonder. But apart from when we're very young, we don't experience those things.

I was talking about these bits:

But to get back to what the OP asked, human ego is only interested in striving - striving for power, sex, status, etc. People have no interest in questioning where we come from.

I don't think that question comes from ego striving necessarily. It's just a normal thing to wonder about, given our circumstances. But OP seems to be currently fixated on it, while pretty much everyone else in the population just isn't bothered about it in their everyday lives.

True sense of wonder isn't an egotistical emotion.

I may have misunderstood but I thought you were making a distinction about interest in questioning (wonder) not coming from the ego striving versus these other drives. If not I apologize.
I wanted to know what makes the desire to know different from other desires, and why it is not from the human ego.
For example there are drugs that can impact libido, increasing through the roof or pretty much killing it off entirely. That would be a good indicator it is related to something in human brains. Is the brain the seat of the ego and interest in information beyond the brain (ego)?

Humans are just rats in a maze, programmed zombies. It's not a matter of lesser, or more noble.

Quite a few people on here seem to wonder about reincarnation. Punishment doesn't come into it. It's probably just random luck- of-the-draw why you got this particular life.

We don't even know how to not be miserable our whole lives, and a lifetime of struggling to maintain well-being characterizes the lives of almost all animals. Well, we do kind of have an idea: be lucky.

So I do not know.
But luck seems to be the biggest factor in whether this existence is miserable or not and it sounds like you agree?

Ever notice that no matter the religion or scientific discipline trying to explain the world and life, how it came to be, what it's all about, and so on, that it pretty much just sounds like hell?

I still have no idea what you are saying or what you even believe. But I stand by the notion that at least I, probably others, have heard about "ego! ego!" frequently. It may have beautiful intent. To those suffering to an extent they are contemplating suicide to escape (though yes you can contemplate suicide without suffering's compulsion), the call to just shut down the ego be enlightened bro sounds like one more guilt trip. Some of us are guilty scum of course. If it's not punishment, point the way to the real exit please.

Yes, I get it that kids often ask about the big 'whys', I was just found it interesting that you were asking questions specifically about infinity. That's a big thing for a kid to inquire about. A potentially mind-altering thing to focus on.

Mirror gazing as a kid for hours. Mirrors front and back. Give it a go even now. Edit: 15 minutes is probably enough.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't know. I guess I just think that thinking about stuff like this is irrelevant to me. I never saw the appeal for it and I still don't. To me, what matters is not the origins of everything or how we came to be but rather that I'm currently alive right now. After all, what matters is that I'm alive and suffering right now when I should have been dead years ago so that my suffering from life can be spared

Besides, humans can only bother about stuff like this to begin with because they are currently alive. If they weren't, they wouldn't care about this at all.

 

[Pluto]

This is not scientific, just some internal observations. But my point is that our consciousness might not (I do not know or have answers) be so limitless. In fact you can directly modify it: you can stab yourself in the hand to cause sharp pain, you can orgasm to cause it to have a specific pleasure response over a finite amount of time, we can take drugs that modify mood, perception, thought, and sensation, people can be disabled in many specific ways through brain damage such as being blinded, and finally, we can even 'die' whatever that is.

All fair points! My own bias is that I feel that the limitations of current science lead smoothly into what Sam Harris calls "states of mind that lie at the core of many religions". (Not that I'd call it a state of mind.) A few assorted remarks:

If time is merely a 4th dimension, that means other 'times' coexist with the present time (if it can be called that). The past and future 'me' are currently operating at different points on this spectrum and reality itself is timeless. It also means that it should be theoretically possible to meet another 'you' (say, via time travel) as if they were a separate person. From here, it's only a small step to the conclusion that every seemingly separate person in the universe is actually a single universal consciousness. This is just another intellectual pathway to the same assertion.

That's a temporal angle, so here's about a spatial one: even the most ardent materialist should not conclude that a human body is separate from the universe. Someone could identify as 1) a bunch of atoms, 2) a collection of molecules, 3) an amalgamation of cells, 4) a series of body parts, 5) a complete human body, 6) a part of a family, 7) a part of a community, 8) a part of a species, 9) a part of a planetary ecosystem, 10) a part of a universe or 11) consciousness. There are no particular boundaries between any of these except for those we invent with our minds; it's also worth noting that the way we approach this radically informs our worldview, politics and attitudes toward others.

​

Regarding anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome, what is being discussed is the exact opposite. It is a state of awareness in which there is not the slightest trace of the identity of the human/me/character. And reportedly, the means to know that state directly still involves the scientific method, except applying the investigation to one's immediate experience rather than some objects in a lab.

 

[Tears in Rain]

What are you referring to then, and how does one do it exactly and is 'free will' required? Because I thought you said ego dissolution while alive. Many people have experienced ego dissolution through psychedelics or meditation and come right back.

Yes, I'm referring to ego dissolution while alive.
Yes, psychedelics can lead to altered states of consciousness, and can be a gateway to a spiritual awakening.

You don't come back from ego dissolution, it's a death-rebith process. Ego integrates into the Unified field of consciousness. You transcend the ego.

Are you talking about the ever-elusive 'enlightenment'?

Mystics essentially refer to three states of consciousness:
1)- asleep within the dream(pretty much everyone who's ever lived)
2) - awake/ lucid within the dream
3) - awake from the dream/enlightened

Some people say 2, awake within the dream, is our natural birthright. The integrated state.

I wanted to know what makes the desire to know different from other desires, and why it is not from the human ego.

The questioning about where we come from, etc still comes from ego, the desire to know what the hell is going on here. But it's driven more by curiosity or inquiry, than base drives like sex, or striving for status.

So I do not know.
But luck seems to be the biggest factor in whether this existence is miserable or not and it sounds like you agree?

Ultimately we don't know why we get the life
we get. It does appear random alright.

I still have no idea what you are saying or what you even believe. But I stand by the notion that at least I, probably others, have heard about "ego! ego!" frequently. It may have beautiful intent. To those suffering to an extent they are contemplating suicide to escape (though yes you can contemplate suicide without suffering's compulsion), the call to just shut down the ego be enlightened bro sounds like one more guilt trip. Some of us are guilty scum of course. If it's not punishment, point the way to the real exit please.

I'm not calling you to do anything, or guilt-tripping you to do anything. Whether you commit suicide or not makes no difference to my life. All I'm saying is that there is another life available to you, but there's a big price to pay - the price is letting go of everything that ties you to humanity.

Your post about wondering about infinity as a kid just piqued my interest is all. And the staring at the mirror comment in your recent post.

 

[escape_from_hell]

Yes, I'm referring to ego dissolution while alive.
Yes, psychedelics can lead to altered states of consciousness, and can be a gateway to a spiritual awakening.

You don't come back from ego dissolution, it's a death-rebith process. Ego integrates into the Unified field of consciousness. You transcend the ego.

Is this spiritual awakening available only to humans, any animal with a nervous system, plants, fungi, inanimate objects, systems (we are arguably a system) such as storms, solar systems, ant colonies, etc.? Why are all these spirits asleep?
Rebirth is the issue many of us are hoping to avoid, permanently.

The questioning about where we come from, etc still comes from ego, the desire to know what the hell is going on here. But it's driven more by curiosity or inquiry, than base drives like sex, or striving for status.

My point was not clear but way up there somewhere what I tried to say was that satiating the desire curiosity will not bring peace any more than satiating the base desires. For me and probably most it will give more fulfillment and for longer, but there are always more questions. It seems it will never be enough for most desires and for some us we will be asking recursive 'why's without satisfaction.

Notably there are humans that find satisfaction with religion. Like some of us develop gratitude for enough food and drink, satisfaction and a 'good enough' attitude in recognition of the inherent insatiable nature of other base desires...They have in a way achieved this with curiosity.

I'm not calling you to do anything, or guilt-tripping you to do anything. Whether you commit suicide or not makes no difference to my life. All I'm saying is that there is another life available to you, but there's a big price to pay - the price is letting go of everything that ties you to humanity.

Your post about wondering about infinity as a kid just piqued my interest is all. And the staring at the mirror comment in your recent post.

True, you did not give a call to action.
The ego talk is analogous to original sin concept in my view. "Just let go of ego" is about as helpful as "Jesus loves you" was my point.
We are in an unasked-for predicament. As far as it seems having no memory of it. Memory wipe at birth means maybe we did ask. No way to prove it or satisfy that question. It's gone without recollection.

I do invite you (not call on you) to try the meditative gazing in the mirror. A back mirror is not needed but will amplify. Not sure if it works for everyone but just in case prepare mentally as you would for consuming psychs or dissos.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Is this spiritual awakening available only to humans, any animal with a nervous system, plants, fungi, inanimate objects, systems (we are arguably a system) such as storms, solar systems, ant colonies, etc.? Why are all these spirits asleep?

The spiritual awakening I'm referring to is a human spiritual awakening. But some would say certain animals are far more spiritual than human beings. Dogs for example.

Rebirth is the issue many of us are hoping to avoid, permanently.

Are you referring to reincarnation? That's not what I'm referring to.

True, you did not give a call to action.
The ego talk is analogous to original sin concept in my view. "Just let go of ego" is about as helpful as "Jesus loves you" was my point.

I didn't say 'just let go of ego'. You're referring to most spiritual literature. I agree, it contains as much bullshit as religion does.

I do invite you (not call on you) to try the meditative gazing in the mirror. A back mirror is not needed but will amplify. Not sure if it works for everyone but just in case prepare mentally as you would for consuming psychs or dissos.

That's interesting what you say about the mirror. I have come across techniques to do with the mirror. Why do you say 'prepare mentally as you would for consuming psychs or dissos '? What kind of experiences have you had?

 

[escape_from_hell]

If time is merely a 4th dimension, that means other 'times' coexist with the present time (if it can be called that). The past and future 'me' are currently operating at different points on this spectrum and reality itself is timeless. It also means that it should be theoretically possible to meet another 'you' (say, via time travel) as if they were a separate person. From here, it's only a small step to the conclusion that every seemingly separate person in the universe is actually a single universal consciousness. This is just another intellectual pathway to the same assertion.

I'm not a physicist but I think many do not view time as exactly like the three spatial ones.
It might well be we are all a single universal consciousness. To me personally it is not a small step, maybe you see that very easily and that's great. Does not answer much of my own personal big 'why's but maybe that's good enough for most. I wish that knowledge would alleviate the suffering of for example a child born and abused and tortured by parents but I guess just like with the Abrahamic religions this stuff is always absolutely necessary for whatever reason. That child and its ego.

That's a temporal angle, so here's about a spatial one: even the most ardent materialist should not conclude that a human body is separate from the universe. Someone could identify as 1) a bunch of atoms, 2) a collection of molecules, 3) an amalgamation of cells, 4) a series of body parts, 5) a complete human body, 6) a part of a family, 7) a part of a community, 8) a part of a species, 9) a part of a planetary ecosystem, 10) a part of a universe or 11) consciousness. There are no particular boundaries between any of these except for those we invent with our minds; it's also worth noting that the way we approach this radically informs our worldview, politics and attitudes toward others.

No doubt any of these systems could well be conscious entities. Even Stephen Wolfram entertains that idea frequently.
If you are able to, at will, switch your conscious state of being between being planets, a whole country, etc. I am just envious because that does not seem to be an option for me. I can't just switch to being Mars for an hour or whatever. Maybe with a lot of ketamine or DXM. Yes, I know that's probably not exactly what you meant.
And maybe I'm just not trying hard enough and that damn ego again.

Regarding anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome, what is being discussed is the exact opposite. It is a state of awareness in which there is not the slightest trace of the identity of the human/me/character. And reportedly, the means to know that state directly still involves the scientific method, except applying the investigation to one's immediate experience rather than some objects in a lab.

This is what I was referring to with gradients of qualia, layers and so on.
Personally I suspect I might be pretty dissociated most of the time and am 'observing' my life, story, sensations like this and even at times am caught off guard when I actually have to interact with other people. Mild persistent DPDR maybe, a lot of people and doctors think of that as a negative condition. Not even sure anymore.
I'd like to take it all the way and just completely discombobulate totally. Maybe that's my ego. I would leave this 'self' unattended and even more suffering will come to it. I admit I do not have to will to go to full Sokushinbutsu. (Edit: added link kind to explain term)

The anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome I am referring to is that humans think they have the power or capability to answer these 'ultimate' questions and figure it all out, so to speak. Plenty of people think they have all the answers, especially the religious and spiritual (to include the Vedic and Buddhist derivatives)--maybe they do.
That suffering is just an option and it's because of those damned egos we intentionally chose is a theme that keeps popping up.

Are you referring to reincarnation? That's not what I'm referring to.

I am envisioning something like integrating to the point where you let this form form continue as a NPC (for lack of a better way to describe it) while you carry on in the blissful oneness. Whether it's possible I don't know.

That's interesting what you say about the mirror. I have come across techniques to do with the mirror. Why do you say 'prepare mentally as you would for consuming psychs or dissos '? What kind of experiences have you had?

Because it can be an experience that catches by surprise and go a lot deeper than might be expected from just looking in mirrors.
It's not dangerous or anything and you can stop and be okay within a few minutes, so it's not like drugs in that sense.
It can also be a bit less pleasant than expected, terrifying even especially when getting visual feedback on small movements you consciously take, where you direct your attention, and sudden changes in what you are seeing (literally not looking the same).

 

[Tears in Rain]

I am envisioning something like integrating to the point where you let this form form continue as a NPC (for lack of a better way to describe it) while you carry on in the blissful oneness. Whether it's possible I don't know.

Integration, that's what I'm referring to. And yes, it is possible. I'm not saying you should seek it, but I'm saying it's possible.

Because it can be an experience that catches by surprise and go a lot deeper than might be expected from just looking in mirrors.

With certain techniques, you can go far deeper than what you're talking about.

 

[escape_from_hell]

With certain techniques, you can go far deeper than what you're talking about.

Give it a try for an extended period. Am curious to know what results others may have with this.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Give it a try for an extended period. Am curious to know what results others may have with this.

I'm aware of the mirror and it's potential uses.

 

[Pluto]

The anthropocentric/narcissism/main-character-syndrome I am referring to is that humans think they have the power or capability to answer these 'ultimate' questions and figure it all out, so to speak. Plenty of people think they have all the answers, especially the religious and spiritual (to include the Vedic and Buddhist derivatives)--maybe they do.

I appreciate your honesty. I haven't figured it out (so to speak) either but a lot of these questions are frequently asked and could be valuable for others.

The big challenge in talking about this at all is that the very nature of words is based on separation. Yet what we are trying to talk about is not separation. We are using a flawed medium.

Example: a mind-identified person might see, say, Nagarjuna as someone sitting on a high horse and talking gibberish. Also a part of this picture is the separate, suffering, 'frustrated me' who doesn't understand what is being said, or wonders if it isn't all just a giant fraud. Yet someone in the state of the Nagarjuna would see others as themselves and have no need for any knowledge since the universe functions spontaneously and automatically. How to reconcile these perspectives?

If this is going around in circles, it is best to forget about this stuff until you feel ready.

With regards to what we call tragedy and hardship, the perspective of the sage is "nothing ever happened" (Papaji) and "all is well" (Robert Adams) and "there are no others" (Ramana). This is a VERY dangerous teaching without a lot of context, but suffice to say the world is viewed completely and radically differently when the false self is no longer running the show.

Regarding the sense of being limited to a particular point in spacetime, Ramana Maharshi was of the view that there is no free will whatsoever, nor anybody to possess it, and the only choice we can make is to identify with the ego/mind identity or abide as the universal Self.

Again, this might take a bunch of explaining and it would only cause harm to go into it unless there is genuine curiosity and openness. In fact, you'd be right to accuse me of pushing my own ego if I did so without permission. What is of value is if any of this resonates at a deeper level, or if there has been any sort of insight in the past. At least there's something to work with.