Venting Having children is very stupid, selfish, pointless, unfair, illogical, unethical, and unreasonable!

[davidtorez]

What people think of their own life is not as relevant as looking at other facts of life.

 

[Higurashi415]

@Higurashi415 No you made an assumption that I'm suffering terribly because I said having kids in general is a risk. It's not even based on my own experiences. People can look at the suffering of strangers and make that conclusion. Besides I've seen enough family in unbearable pain. I mean you're here as well so why are you disagreeing with what I'm saying like you're happy and coping fine? No need to even be here then is there if you've got life all figured out. And I think I'd be pretty upset if I really was say in horrible physical pain for you to then say "whatever you're going through is very rare" and try and make me feel even more of an outsider than I already do. No one talks about their pain anyway because this is always the type of response they get. Again you just assume everyone else is fine because talking about depression is still taboo and people like you don't wanna hear any negative talk.

You can speculate about why I made that assumption, but you don't have to, because I've told you why I did that. Again, if I was wrong in doing so I apologize. I feel like you're needlessly complicating things: the anti-natalist argument is fully fledged and nevertheless full of holes, such as the one I pointed at. Nothing I ever wrote in this forum suggests that I'm happy and I'm doing fine, including the posts in this thread, it was more like "We're struggling a lot, maybe even in a similar way, but most people aren't, not by a long shot". I think I've made it abundantly clear. Most people come here because they can't publicly discuss what we discuss here, hence my claim is clearly correct in most cases, it feels very weird that that specific point gets challenged in this specific forum, but here we are.

This is not a debate about depression (whatever that means, anyway), you're venting out thoughts that are rooted in anti-natalism and are vaguely associated to a depressive state but not even necessarily so, which is completely fine, and I'm trying to go a step beyond that. My claim really applies to any non-adaptive deviance from the mean, but you mentioned depression so I'll use it as an example. Most people are not depressed, so if you're experiencing depression and depressive thoughts you are NOT like most people. Do we agree on that? If we agree on that, your point about kids being a bad idea makes absolutely no sense, which is what I was actually referring to and I made that abundantly clear. That is because a kid will probably NEVER be depressed throughout his/her life, so everything you're saying does not apply.

You said both that my talk is negative, and that I don't want to hear negative talk. Pick one.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@Higurashi415 yeah we know everyone else apparently loves life we just don't need it beating into us constantly on here of all places. It came across as an attack not "hey I know what you're going through cos I'm here as well" which would've been fine.

it was more like "We're struggling a lot, maybe even in a similar way, but most people aren't, not by a long shot".

You didn't say anything like that, might've been helpful if you had.

I'm not really talking about depression as my idea of suffering has always primarily been physical pain. You came at it from a depression viewpoint by the assumption of me being here so I must be "suffering". Believe me I'd have CTB long ago at the first sign of my idea of suffering. Depression I'm used to, felt it all my life, wouldn't even bother to try and treat it. I'm unhappy and miserable yeah but I don't feel I'm "suffering". For all you know I'm talking about people getting cancer or any other limitless ways one can suffer and nothing to do with depression, just your wrong assumptions again. And why does it matter if most kids won't ever be depressed? Some inevitably will and I didn't say it was 100% I said it was a RISK, that's just a fact and no parent knows if their kid will be the unlucky one. So everything I said still applies.

 

[Higurashi415]

@Higurashi415 yeah we know everyone else apparently loves life we just don't need it beating into us constantly on here of all places. It came across as an attack not "hey I know what you're going through cos I'm here as well" which would've been fine.


You didn't say anything like that, might've been helpful if you had.

I'm not really talking about depression as my idea of suffering has always primarily been physical pain. You came at it from a depression viewpoint by the assumption of me being here so I must be "suffering". Believe me I'd have CTB long ago at the first sign of my idea of suffering. Depression I'm used to, felt it all my life, wouldn't even bother to try and treat it. I'm unhappy and miserable yeah but I don't feel I'm "suffering". For all you know I'm talking about people getting cancer or any other limitless ways one can suffer and nothing to do with depression, just your wrong assumptions again. And why does it matter if most kids won't ever be depressed? Some inevitably will and I didn't say it was 100% I said it was a RISK, that's just a fact and no parent knows if their kid will be the unlucky one. So everything I said still applies.

The reason I'm stating the obvious (the fact that everyone else apparently loves life) is due to the fact that you're acting like most people are doomed to be as depressed as we are, thus having kids is a bad idea. That's the whole point.

You're absolutely right, re-reading what I first wrote in the way you interpreted it sounds very different from what I had in mind. My bad, I should've worded that a bit differently. The reason I think it's somewhat positive is that I view it like... my life is a mess, but that could very well be because my brain doesn't function normally (especially the part that regulates emotions, in my case). I doubt regular people with my brain would do much better.
But this wasn't at all what I wrote, apologies.

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.
Because of that, if you see a random person crossing the street, you wouldn't bet on them being ran over by a drunk driver, would you? You'd be almost always wrong. That's kinda the point. We're always taking calculated risks. Random guy thinks his kid will have a decent life, and he's probably right, his random kid will probably have a decent life. In no way can this be considered a bad approximation.

And look, unless you're willing to write a book at every reply I'm obviously going to make assumptions, if my assumptions are wrong just point it out and I'll fix that no problem. Same applies to you. I don't know you and you don't know me.

 

[EmptyBottle]

I wonder whether this thread will end up getting locked, Hopefully it doesn't tho. (I remember a thread about magnum that degraded and got locked)

 

[vileforgot]

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.

hm, yeah i see your point. but i don't think it's comparable. around 8.3% of adults experienced at least one episode of major depression in 2021. and that is one single year. not to mention other illnesses or situations that make life not worth living. when i think about the people in my life, there are actually a lot of people that would have preferred not to have been born, maybe even the majority.
also i think that preventing suffering has a higher value than the possibility of a positive outcome. what does the average life matter? no one would have cared if they hadn't been born. if the person is never born, happiness and a good life is not taken away, it never existed in the first place. so i think preventing one "bad life" is way more important than bringing 10 mediocre or good lifes into the world

 

[SilentSadness]

It is an obvious, basic fact that having children is morally bankrupt. Most people are viciously against this simply because of natural selection, the most horrifying process to exist. All suffering and problems are unnecessary and due to procreation. It is somewhat amazing to see people still defend it so intensely when it is so deeply wrong, but it's important to remember that natural selection caused this.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I read this thread, I don't really get it, why should I care about the reality of others? I know having children is bad for the kind of world we live in, the end, I know I'm right...? The debate basically ends right there, actually, what debate? usually pro-lifers wouldn't even consider my position in the first place, so I don't consider theirs, I'd save a random animal before a pro-lifer.

 

[needwaytohell]

I agree with almost every point mentioned here although irl ppl think I'm insane for stating these.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I wonder whether this thread will end up getting locked, Hopefully it doesn't tho. (I remember a thread about magnum that degraded and got locked)

There was a thread a couple months back on this subject and it was just getting into a good debate then it got locked. To be fair I was partly responsible because I was calling parents some choice names (won't repeat them lol) but basically along the lines of this thread title. Anyway I won't do that this time. I do like a good debate-well it kills some time for me at least.

The reason I'm stating the obvious (the fact that everyone else apparently loves life) is due to the fact that you're acting like most people are doomed to be as depressed as we are, thus having kids is a bad idea. That's the whole point.

You're absolutely right, re-reading what I first wrote in the way you interpreted it sounds very different from what I had in mind. My bad, I should've worded that a bit differently. The reason I think it's somewhat positive is that I view it like... my life is a mess, but that could very well be because my brain doesn't function normally (especially the part that regulates emotions, in my case). I doubt regular people with my brain would do much better.
But this wasn't at all what I wrote, apologies.

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.
Because of that, if you see a random person crossing the street, you wouldn't bet on them being ran over by a drunk driver, would you? You'd be almost always wrong. That's kinda the point. We're always taking calculated risks. Random guy thinks his kid will have a decent life, and he's probably right, his random kid will probably have a decent life. In no way can this be considered a bad approximation.

And look, unless you're willing to write a book at every reply I'm obviously going to make assumptions, if my assumptions are wrong just point it out and I'll fix that no problem. Same applies to you. I don't know you and you don't know me.

I appreciate you apologising-maybe I do overreact sometimes as it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me. I still think we're kinda misunderstanding each other as you're primarily focused on depression and someone's kid having a decent life overall and I'm thinking about the fact they WILL suffer at some point. Maybe it'll take until they're 70 but really horrible stuff happens at the end of life to the majority of people. I mean when is the last time you heard that someone passed away in their sleep? Dying is painful, losing a loved one is painful (it'll happen to all of us) these are part of the life experience. That kid will probably die of cancer or dementia one day, maybe the parent doesn't think it matters as they won't be around to see it but I very much think it does matter. Do you not think death is a harm? Most of us are still here because we can't do it despite wanting to. Like I said before it'll probably take horrible physical suffering to push me to actually do it. And it's not because I love life so much! It's because death is so scary and painful. It's amazing how we can have such different views on the imposition of an almost certain painful death inflicted on us by our parents.