Discussion Has there ever actually been “free speech”?

[Dot]

So, you're dismissing a detransitioner's plight many youtube comments which shares some experience as rambling? Right...

*nods*


So, you're saying self-love is harmful? I feel like you're missing the point once more.

Isn't always... but then again...

"STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!"

And there we have it!

View attachment 103108
Now... to refute your claims on having all the data, I have all these links. It's as I was saying before: you're the one spreading harmful information. You may have found data to suggest that detransition is rare and that transitioning is the most safe and logical decision, but... there are a while lot of risks involved. You should've taken the time to look for any flaws before you ran off with it to support your ideology.

You could delete my comment or ban me all you like, but then who'd be the villain? You might as well just put the world inside a bottle.

Puberty Blockers:

https://www.fda.gov/media/159663/download&ved=2ahUKEwif5pLwoK38AhVuj4kEHTDdACoQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw10vOUImaN66j8ii42dtXRu

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547863/#:~:text=Common%20side%20effects%20of%20the,worsening%20of%20diabetes%20and%20osteoporosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671348/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24212879/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7233750/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5997553/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4898068/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669307/

Pls 4gve slf fr jumpng in hre --

"Overall, GnRHa seems effective and safe for CPP patients, based on long-term follow-up studies."

Thse hormnes r refrnced in thse artcles fr hlth conditns othr thn gendr dysphria & sde-effcts r considrd accptble in rsk-benft analsys givn th/ damge thse othr hlth conditns cn cre8 whn untreatd - in usng thse artcles U Cm 2 infer tht dysphria = nt as valid as thse othr conditns in rsk-benft analyss

Autoimmunity:
https://www.sciforschenonline.org/journals/autoimmune-infectious/article-data/AIDOA125/AIDOA125.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180207/
https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13293-020-00325-4
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6501433/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4701921/

Nne of thse artcles rel8 2 transgendrsm - jst immunolgcl sx diffrncs in womn vs mn - am nt sre xactly wht point thse artcles r makng specfclly wth rgard 2 trnsgedrsm othr thn speculatn of immne systm b-ing impactd b/ treatmnt bt agn tht = nt specfc evdnce fr currnt contxt

HRT and Genetic Disorders:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5378510/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32079984/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8647165/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31372078/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32450447/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30307546/
https://academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/65/1/57/5607952?login=true
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27916515/

Am afrd thse artcles d/ nt sy mch - thy sy tht thre cld b a rsk of thromboss fr MtF transitnrs bt tht "Overall the risks of treatment are low, but include thromboembolism, the risk of which depends on the dose and route of oestrogen administration" or tht r "2-3 pr 1000"

Ths = cmpard t/ 3-10 pr 1000 of cis womn wh/ tke contrcrptve plls & simlr t/ th/ r8 of 2.5 cis womn pr 1000 wh/ r usng HRT treatmnt fr othr conditns --- nothng = rsk-free -- = abt decidng if benfts out-wgh th/ rsks

Th/ only imprssn tht am gttng frm thse artcles & ur cmmnts = tht propr screenng fr gendr dysphria = alwys imprtnt & tht doctrs shld dscuss n.e potentl rsks wth thr patnts -- ths wld b th/ sme wth n.e medicl prcedure or treatmnt pln

If thre r n.e physcns wh/ r nt actng ethclly wth thr patnts or screenng proprly thn tht shld b a cse fr rportng th/ physcn -- nt jst fr critcisng th/ treatmnt in genrl

Thnk = also importnt 2 remmbr tht ppl wh/ de-transitnd wll b mre lkely 2 mke vdeos abt thr xpernces thn othrs wh/ transitn & jst crry on wth thr lves --

Thnk = mre importnt 2 lk @ th/ cses of D-transitnrs & C wht ws undrlyng thr individl xpernce 2 prevnt rpeats of tht wth othr ppl rathr thn tryn2 shut dwn treatmnt fr th/ 97-98% wh/ Cm 2 hve a mre postve xpernce

Th/ vdeo tht u linkd ws a persn tellng thr thrpst tht thy d/ nt belve in transgedrsm n.emre bcse thy r prt of th/ 2% fr whm transitnng dd nt wrk -- thre r othr thrpsts out thre wh/ follw ur rhetrc of tllng dysphorc ppl 2 jst accpt thr biolgcl sx & mny of thse dysphorc ppl ctb as rsult -- sme of thm r on SaSu

Thre wll v rrely b an apprch or a treatmnnt tht hlps 100% of ppl - tht = nxt 2 impssble

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Pls 4gve slf fr jumpng in hre --

No sweat... all is good.

"Overall, GnRHa seems effective and safe for CPP patients, based on long-term follow-up studies."

Thse hormnes r refrnced in thse artcles fr hlth conditns othr thn gendr dysphria & sde-effcts r considrd accptble in rsk-benft analsys givn th/ damge thse othr hlth conditns cn cre8 whn untreatd - in usng thse artcles U Cm 2 infer tht dysphria = nt as valid as thse othr conditns in rsk-benft analyss

Yes, I know... But that's kinda something to factor in when making a decision, though regarding whether it's acceptable varies from person to person. Frankly, it's not much of a deep concern for me due to me not having to face such difficulty. (Forgive me if I come off as insensitive; I'm going through an odd shift that's making me less inhibited.)

Perhaps to put it candidly, I'm rather neutral about it (that's right; I'm not transphobic)... but... I'll get to that point in my hypothesis.

Nne of thse artcles rel8 2 transgendrsm - jst immunolgcl sx diffrncs in womn vs mn - am nt sre xactly wht point thse artcles r makng specfclly wth rgard 2 trnsgedrsm othr thn speculatn of immne systm b-ing impactd b/ treatmnt bt agn tht = nt specfc evdnce fr currnt contxt

I would've posted a video to go with it, though... I wasn't sure if anyone's gonna watch it, or... disregard it... but... consider looking up Issac Uncooked's youtube channel if you feel like it. He's kinda been doing his own research on these subjects.

But, in a way, they kinda are. When you take cross-sex hormones they kinda alter it in a way they might not end too well... or cause pain.

Am afrd thse artcles d/ nt sy mch - thy sy tht thre cld b a rsk of thromboss fr MtF transitnrs bt tht "Overall the risks of treatment are low, but include thromboembolism, the risk of which depends on the dose and route of oestrogen administration" or tht r "2-3 pr 1000"

Ths = cmpard t/ 3-10 pr 1000 of cis womn wh/ tke contrcrptve plls & simlr t/ th/ r8 of 2.5 cis womn pr 1000 wh/ r usng HRT treatmnt fr othr conditns --- nothng = rsk-free -- = abt decidng if benfts out-wgh th/ rsks

Th/ only imprssn tht am gttng frm thse artcles & ur cmmnts = tht propr screenng fr gendr dysphria = alwys imprtnt & tht doctrs shld dscuss n.e potentl rsks wth thr patnts -- ths wld b th/ sme wth n.e medicl prcedure or treatmnt pln

If thre r n.e physcns wh/ r nt actng ethclly wth thr patnts or screenng proprly thn tht shld b a cse fr rportng th/ physcn -- nt jst fr critcisng th/ treatmnt in genrl

Thnk = also importnt 2 remmbr tht ppl wh/ de-transitnd wll b mre lkely 2 mke vdeos abt thr xpernces thn othrs wh/ transitn & jst crry on wth thr lves --

Thnk = mre importnt 2 lk @ th/ cses of D-transitnrs & C wht ws undrlyng thr individl xpernce 2 prevnt rpeats of tht wth othr ppl rathr thn tryn2 shut dwn treatmnt fr th/ 97-98% wh/ Cm 2 hve a mre postve xpernce

Th/ vdeo tht u linkd ws a persn tellng thr thrpst tht thy d/ nt belve in transgedrsm n.emre bcse thy r prt of th/ 2% fr whm transitnng dd nt wrk -- thre r othr thrpsts out thre wh/ follw ur rhetrc of tllng dysphorc ppl 2 jst accpt thr biolgcl sx & mny of thse dysphorc ppl ctb as rsult -- sme of thm r on SaSu

Thre wll v rrely b an apprch or a treatmnnt tht hlps 100% of ppl - tht = nxt 2 impssble

I can't argue with that... I suppose if it's necessary to be able to deal with life and its obstacles, I guess you might as well go for it.

However, I will stand by on my main point. I may not suffer from gender dysphoria, nor can I fully empathize with trans individuals, but... I also know that simply changing one's sex isn't enough to cure whatever issues they're dealing with (if it's not entirely gender dysphoria, or the root of the problem goes deeper than that).

This may be a bold hypothesis, or claim, but I've seen a pattern, not just trans individuals, but the ones who consider themselves in marginalized groups (black, female, LGB+, etc), and they wear their identity on a sleeve. While I'm fine with what people do, I also know that simply basing your identity on your gender, race, sexuality, or anything of the sort is rather vacuous and comes off as cheap. Anyone can do that, but little do they know, it won't really provide much meaning to their lives.

I've seen it time and again where despite what ideology they hold with their identity, they still remain rather miserable. They may feel good for a while, but it's like porn and masturbation; fleeting. So, the only way to make them feel relatively decent is through constant validation and affirmation. And when they don't get that, they're forced to face nihilism, which from there they turn hostile towards anyone they perceive to be more successful or slillful than them, viewing them as enemies, when in truth, the only enemy they have are themselves. Why? Because it's hardly any different from an antidepressant, only difference is that it's more invasive. It's a bandaid.

Contrary to what some are led to believe, they're not oppressed; no one is... unless we're talking those in developing countries, but otherwise, no.

I know from experience in how to deal with nihilism and suffering, and my story is a long one and is one worth telling once I finish it and complete my project. I have gone through my fair share of bullying, racism, abuse, and other things. And for a long time, I was misanthropic, and feared just about everyone, especially the white people, just like some of you fear those who aren't exactly left-wing, accusinh them of being transphobes, racists, bigots, or whatever. But you know what? I detached myself and decided to take action. I cultivated my own set of skills despite my lack of knowledge on the subject. And from there, as I worked tirelessly on my project, and overcame many obstacles just to achieve my goal, I realized I no longer have need of dying. With everything I've done, I'm no longer suicidal. I've found purpose, and not only that, but because I exposed myself to the negatives, I dropped that negative mindset. And I believe everyone could too.

You're born with a unique set of traits, personality, talent, genetics, and so on. If life is tough, ask yourself why and then figure out what you're good at, and then challenge yourself. Once you do something that is actually impacted rather than just using cheat codes, you'll live a satisfying life. That's my point and the proper way to deal with depression.

 

[RainAndSadness]

[...]
Puberty Blockers:

https://www.fda.gov/media/159663/download&ved=2ahUKEwif5pLwoK38AhVuj4kEHTDdACoQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw10vOUImaN66j8ii42dtXRu

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547863/#:~:text=Common%20side%20effects%20of%20the,worsening%20of%20diabetes%20and%20osteoporosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671348/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24212879/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7233750/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5997553/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4898068/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669307/

Autoimmunity:
https://www.sciforschenonline.org/journals/autoimmune-infectious/article-data/AIDOA125/AIDOA125.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180207/
https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13293-020-00325-4
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6501433/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4701921/

HRT and Genetic Disorders:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5378510/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32079984/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8647165/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31372078/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32450447/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30307546/
https://academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/65/1/57/5607952?login=true
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27916515/

I also love how you gish gallop me with dozens of links to scientific articles with no commentary at all. Did you even read these studies? At least I explained to you why I've linked them and how they debunk your narrative about detransitioners. Like what's your point? Sure, HRT has inconvenient side-effects, nobody has ever denied that and that wasn't the point of the discussion either. You're literally bringing up strawmen and you've just moved the goalpost as we discuss this issue. HRT is appropiate given the risk-benefit ratio. Trans people are aware of these risks, we talk to our doctors and we still decide it's the best path for us, because medically speaking, that's a fact. People who transition are a lot happier than people who don't. And look, no treatment comes without risks. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid artrhitis a few years ago. And I received some pretty heavy medication, immune suppression drugs, it does a lot to your body I can tell you that. It's basically a small chemo therapy. I have the feeling that you don't really understand why we give trans people trans-affirming treatment. The point is, it increases our quality of life and makes us live longer.

[...]
I cultivated my own set of skills despite my lack of knowledge on the subject. And from there, as I worked tirelessly on my project, and overcame many obstacles just to achieve my goal, I realized I no longer have need of dying. With everything I've done, I'm no longer suicidal. I've found purpose, and not only that, but because I exposed myself to the negatives, I dropped that negative mindset. And I believe everyone could too.

You're born with a unique set of traits, personality, talent, genetics, and so on. If life is tough, ask yourself why and then figure out what you're good at, and then challenge yourself. Once you do something that is actually impacted rather than just using cheat codes, you'll live a satisfying life. That's my point and the proper way to deal with depression.

That's what trans people do. They work tirelessly on their transition, on their body, on their appearance to become their true self and to become accepted members of society. These are steps into a happier life. Transition is a journey, not a cheat code. You invite a lot of hate, violence and tragedy into your life if you transition, as I explained above. All the information is out there. You just need to read it. And you need to stop watching so many Youtube videos about singular instances of people detransition and pretend that's in any way representative of the scietific situation. It isn't.

 

[LastFlowers]

If you have the ability to speak, you technically have the freedom to speech.
But that doesn't mean you are actually afforded the right or opportunity to be heard.
So speaking becomes rather meaningless and could even lead to mental distress if all you have is yourself and a brick wall as an audience.
You could very well end up as someone with a whole lot worth saying, but nobody will actively listen to you.
Censorship, by law and by social status quos exists and can be especially harmful to those who are disadvantaged in society.

Meanwhile you will witness plenty of abusers and enablers stating that they are allowed to say or permit any type of derogatory, inaccurate, prejudicial, tyrannizing language (most often 'punching down') under the supposed virtue or legality of "Freedom of Speech".
It's all very hypocritical and contradictory.

This website and the attempts to shut it down..the "taboo" of suicide should be example enough that 'freedom of speech' is not to be taken at face value.
Even here, there are rules against saying certain things..or in certain ways.
(And rarely are they implemented evenhandedly or equally, I might add..this goes for all online forums.)
Even some valid reasons to commit suicide aren't allowed the full scope of conversation or catharsis because there are somehow taboos within taboos and so some poor voices will always and forever be silenced and forgotten in the abyss of their own world & circumstances being closed in on them.

To suffer is one thing.
To suffer in silence is another.
Being able to shout at the top of your lungs doesn't necessarily mean you are not being silenced.

All "freedoms" wax and wane with privilege, power..the loss or lack of it.

Or you could be an adult, and explain why something is "harmful and untrue" in a open debate.

If you're right, and you have logic on your side, you'll prove your point.

The fact you're justifying censorship probably means you are wrong. And you know you're wrong. On whatever issue you're thinking of.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

I was in agreement with some of your previous points in your initial comment..but having logic on your side is by no means a guarantee that you'll be perceived as proving your point.
That's a fallacy.

Not sure what you mean by "nobody censors to support truth"…you mean nobody has ever censored someone in order to hide inaccuracies or lies?
But we know that is not the case..though it may arguably be less common.
We also know that words alone absolutely are harmful.
(Unless you meant "alone" in a different way than I am interpreting it..it's just kind of impossible to separate words from their context and definitions.)
Words alone can utterly destroy a person, their reputation, their sense of self, their ability to continue living..especially when words have meaning and are not empty or arbitrary.
They can do more harm than physical attacks..or even incite them.
(Yet most laws will punish physical reactions to verbal utterances. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you stand and how far your own words will or won't get you when fighting back verbally.)
When you cut out all the fat, "words" are the reason many find themselves on this site and on their way to an early grave.
So the majority of the community must be spineless then?

That is strange to me..I would personally rather spar physically, words can be deceitful, duplicitous, woefully and purposely full of plausible deniability..the way most of us wield words is never straight forward and is never without defining points or subtext that carry weight beyond the combination of letters and characters.

All this to say, words that ring true and are stated with respect to the possible consequences of their truth..should probably still be said, one way or another.
I agree that we should not hide truths just because they are inconvenient or harmful.
Although some people have a very idiosyncratic definition of what is objective, true or necessary and what is not.
Semantics can also be a pain in the ass and societal status quos tend to favor the rhetoric of platitudes over the opposite.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

I also love how you gish gallop me with dozens of links to scientific articles with no commentary at all. Did you even read these studies?

Frankly, I took it from a detrans person who made the commentary about it and cited the info in his video. He knows more about that than I.

At least I explained to you why I've linked them and how they debunk your narrative about detransitioners. Like what's your point? Sure, HRT has inconvenient side-effects, nobody has ever denied that and that wasn't the point of the discussion either. You're literally bringing up strawmen and you've just moved the goalpost as we discuss this issue. HRT is appropiate given the risk-benefit ratio. Trans people are aware of these risks, we talk to our doctors and we still decide it's the best path for us, because medically speaking, that's a fact. People who transition are a lot happier than people who don't. And look, no treatment comes without risks. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid artrhitis a few years ago. And I received some pretty heavy medication, immune suppression drugs, it does a lot to your body I can tell you that. It's basically a small chemo therapy. I have the feeling that you don't really understand why we give trans people trans-affirming treatment. The point is, it increases our quality of life and makes us live longer.



That's what trans people do. They work tirelessly on their transition, on their body, on their appearance to become their true self and to become accepted members of society. These are steps into a happier life. Transition is a journey, not a cheat code. You invite a lot of hate, violence and tragedy into your life if you transition, as I explained above. All the information is out there. You just need to read it. And you need to stop watching so many Youtube videos about singular instances of people detransition and pretend that's in any way representative of the scietific situation. It isn't.

Hah! Fine... Perhaps I am stepping out of line with my hero complex.

I'll play to my strength in regards for someone in similar situations as my own.

 

[LastFlowers]

People not wanting to interact with you because you act a certain way is not an infringement on your free speech. Getting banned from privately owned forums is also not an infringement on free speech. OTHER people have their individual freedom to kick you out of their life or kick you out of their forum if they don't want you to be a part of it.

Isn't it though?
Especially if you are sincere and may end up with absolutely nowhere else to go.
It's not as if we all have the means and authority to run our own individual forums, it is largely monopolized.

You kick someone from the mountain top only to offer them a hole where they can try to shout from beneath the earth.
I'd argue that there is a degree of censorship right there…maybe it is on a spectrum the same way the definition of freedom of speech is.

People need to adapt, and contrary to the popular belief, censorship is going to do more harm than good. You can censor all you want, but soon enough, the truth or ugly reality is gonna come crashing down, and if you're not prepared, you're going to have a very hard time.

The reason why we have people here in the first place nowadays is due to being sheltered from the cold reality that comes with life. And I know that from experience.

Also... I'm convinced that mental illness is caused by nihilism

You are correct that living in a fantasy land where truths are censored is only going to accentuate the shock and pain you experience when reality hits you in the face like a freight train. It's a luxury to be able to build or sustain a bubble.
However, familiarizing yourself with these hard truths will rarely immunize yourself against them, especially if you have uncontrollable circumstances that make you especially vulnerable to certain facts of life.

So no, the reason people are here "nowadays" (are you implying people did not succumb to the same in the past?) is not due to being sheltered from the cold reality of life.
It's due to being exposed to it at all.

Your experience cannot be the only shade of experience.

What do you define as "mental illness"?
Better yet, what do you define as Nihilism?
Because even those who subscribe to the mental health paradigm of diagnosing various categories of mental distress as an "illness" or "disease" would still assert that they find meaning in life, even if that meaning is not in their favor and to be rejected and fled from.
Many 'diagnoses' are even defined as an individual apparently putting "too much" meaning into certain aspects of life.
Not that I am in agreement, but I'm not the one implementing the term here.

I would actually put forth the argument that the mental health industry itself supports nihilism.
If you look at therapeutic techniques and even the mechanism of action with psych drugs/procedures..the goal is most often not to help someone fix their legitimate problems nor is it to comfort them or validate them when those problems are unfixable, but rather it is to brainwash them into believing that the solution is to change their perception into one that places less weight and meaning on what causes them such distress and torment.
It asks you to render your problems and your circumstances as ultimately meaningless, therefore less affecting.
It demands that you castrate the meaning and reasons behind your suffering in favor of thinking of them as sourced only in some biological brain element..which also must be culled.
It says plainly "Why care so much? That doesn't really matter."

If we erase and trivialize the reasons why someone may want to die, then we also erase and trivialize the reasons someone may want to continue living.
If there's nothing worth dying for or over..then there is nothing worth living for.
Take the meaning and weight of the world's losses away and you also take away any meaning in possessing what was lost in the first place.

The more you neutralize the response to trauma, loss, etc, the more you neutralize and diminish a gain or lack of said trauma.
If every single thing is meant to be adapted to, then what's the sense in putting any one thing above the other?
What's the sense in even arguing about one side or another?
How is leaning toward suicide/succumbing to distress any more nihilistic than leaning toward staying alive?
Especially if the latter may come down to having to live as if what actually matters, doesn't.

Arguably, yes... and while it may not apply to women, for men... it's up to them on how to deal with trauma. Not to say I hate them, but... sometimes the most important lessons are learned the hard way. Trauma builds character.

What do you mean by this?
Why would it only apply to women and not men, besides a double standard/societal construct?
And why should we perpetuate it?

Lessons learned "the hard way" also don't usually leave any room to move forward beyond the realization that you made a grave misstep.

Censorship is never used by the good guy in history, and you can't give me an example to the contrary.

Didn't the person you're responding to already list more than one..?

I agree that a lot of mental illness is caused by nihilism. Also hedonism. People without real purpose often find they have no reason to live. Hence depression and suicidal tendencies. And in a world where fewer and fewer people report being religious, many people have nowhere to turn when they hit tough times. Not saying that any specific religion is the "correct" choice, but nihilism is certainly the wrong

People define purpose differently and not all purposes are as equally flattering or at all pleasant to live with.
Sometimes it's the very sort of purpose you serve to the world and other people that causes insurmountable agony and despair.

Huh..so this is coming from an appeal to religion?
How can you say no specific religion is the correct choice yet you clearly allude to the notion that religion, in some form, is necessary for suicidal individuals to have somewhere to turn.?

Nihilism is not a religion..it's a philosophy.
You could very well be religious and nihilistic at the same time, they're not always mutually exclusive.
And this is possible because there are several subsets of the nihilistic approach.
Unfortunately, this is why we may just be talking around each other right now…while thinking of two totally different branches of nihilism..or more than that.

I also agree trauma builds character, but that's only provided that people survive the trauma. Some mentally ill people are never able to get better. If (when) things get harder, not everyone will be able to adapt. And you can see that in culture today. If we ever have another serious depression or war, there's a significant portion of the population, especially Gen Z, that will have a lot of trouble adapting. I know because I'm in Gen Z, and we're hopeless. Over half of us are on antidepressants, and things aren't even bad yet.

I agree that it can build character as well, and empathy. It can expand your horizons of understanding, which is a good thing to project onto the world and those still in it.
But just like you said..that's only if it's survivable.
More specifically, that's only if balance ever comes into play or if the trauma finally lets up in time and allows you the space to recoup and grow.
Otherwise it will have the exact opposite effect. You will wither into nothing.
Even what was built will come crashing down unceremoniously.

I don't utilize the same terminology you do as far as 'mental illness' but of course human suffering is undeniable and unrelenting, as are the sources of it.
We don't need more war or fresh global events to spur it on.
It has its own perpetual, self sufficient life cycle.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

You are correct that living in a fantasy land where truths are censored is only going to accentuate the shock and pain you experience when reality hits you in the face like a freight train. It's a luxury to be able to build or sustain a bubble.
However, familiarizing yourself with these hard truths will rarely immunize yourself against them, especially if you have uncontrollable circumstances that make you especially vulnerable to certain facts of life.

So no, the reason people are here "nowadays" (are you implying people did not succumb to the same in the past?) is not due to being sheltered from the cold reality of life.
It's due to being exposed to it at all.

You are correct as well... In retrospect, I should've mentioned that when you get close to your breaking point, if you can, you're better off withdrawing from the stressor.

Then during your break, ponder about everything, plan, then return to the stimulus, and rinse and repeat at an increasing frequency or magnitude.

Your experience cannot be the only shade of experience.

I did go egoistic on that.

What do you define as "mental illness"?
Better yet, what do you define as Nihilism?

When I was thinking about nihilism, I imagined the idea of having no goal in life, as practically everything has already been achieved, and we live in a time where science and technology has become advanced that its hard to find anything that requires effort. So instead, we turn towards instant gratification. Spirituality is waning, while extreme rationality is the norm.

Because even those who subscribe to the mental health paradigm of diagnosing various categories of mental distress as an "illness" or "disease" would still assert that they find meaning in life, even if that meaning is not in their favor and to be rejected and fled from.
Many 'diagnoses' are even defined as an individual apparently putting "too much" meaning into certain aspects of life.
Not that I am in agreement, but I'm not the one implementing the term here.

It's as I've said in my other comment where you're born with a unique set of traits... like personality and such; you're built a certain way for a reason... however, with little to do, they start adopting labels for themselves as an attempt to be unique or to classify themselves or belong (I definitely am lacking understanding, I know), but in doing that, they're taking away from the core of their being, making them less unique.

The personality you have is a blueprint of your identity. To simply label your temperament is rather unfulfilling... thus, you have to take action and use whatever qualities you have and integrate everything there is to know about you and work with it to do as you were "meant to do".

I would actually put forth the argument that the mental health industry itself supports nihilism.
If you look at therapeutic techniques and even the mechanism of action with psych drugs/procedures..the goal is most often not to help someone fix their legitimate problems nor is it to comfort them or validate them when those problems are unfixable, but rather it is to brainwash them into believing that the solution is to change their perception into one that places less weight and meaning on what causes them such distress and torment.
It asks you to render your problems and your circumstances as ultimately meaningless, therefore less affecting.
It demands that you castrate the meaning and reasons behind your suffering in favor of thinking of them as sourced only in some biological brain element..which also must be culled.
It says plainly "Why care so much? That doesn't really matter."

Oh, hell... Yeah, drugs are definitely not a path in which I was suggesting. I was thinking something holistic... like basically reflecting on your origin story, and thinking about something in this world you want to change, however, one part is right: it starts with you. How I did this is a bit tricky to explain without writing a 20+ page essay, which I'm not even done. But it's like you work backward towards your goal if all else fails.

If we erase and trivialize the reasons why someone may want to die, then we also erase and trivialize the reasons someone may want to continue living.
If there's nothing worth dying for or over..then there is nothing worth living for.
Take the meaning and weight of the world's losses away and you also take away any meaning in possessing what was lost in the first place.

Precisely...
And that's kinda where my story lies... If you have something that makes you wanna die so obsessively, then that will be the key to living.

Ask yourself why you wanna die, then what you hope to gain from death, and then work on a "backup dream".

Overtime, you'll develop your own values and be willing to defend your values. And overtime, if you can persevere long enough, things may likely transform for you.

The more you neutralize the response to trauma, loss, etc, the more you neutralize and diminish a gain or lack of said trauma.
If every single thing is meant to be adapted to, then what's the sense in putting any one thing above the other?

Hmmm... When I though of this, it was about overcoming your suffering. I never really bother to think about it as, the more traumas you overcome, the more you get acclimated to facing even greater obstacles... Hopefully I'm understanding correctly... I'm falling into a state of confusion... It's the carbs...

What's the sense in even arguing about one side or another?
How is leaning toward suicide/succumbing to distress any more nihilistic than leaning toward staying alive?
Especially if the latter may come down to having to live as if what actually matters, doesn't.

I feel like I had the answer the previous few weeks... but I'm gonna have to jog my own memory. If I recall correctly, it was something to do with absurdism.

What do you mean by this?
Why would it only apply to women and not men, besides a double standard/societal construct?

Social construct and a bit of a lack of understanding of the opposite sex on my part... Then again, maybe women can handle it... but I'm unsure they're able to cross that barrier without ctb. Kinda don't wanna unintentionally kill them from a dangerous suggestion.

And why should we perpetuate it?

Lessons learned "the hard way" also don't usually leave any room to move forward beyond the realization that you made a grave misstep.

Well... Good argument... I kinda didn't put a whole lot of thought in that.

Crap... I wish I didn't crash like this...

I'll probably refine this later.

 

[Winterreise]

They mock Trans athletes masculine looks. They wanna ban puberty blockers. They want 25 year agelimit for transitioning.hello

 

[Nolan96]

You could philosophically hyperanalyze anything and say in some sense it never "really" existed and our conception of it has always been fuzzy and lacking its Platonic ideal form. But it's just a veiled sleezy way of attacking it. "Free speech has never existed" = "I love censoring people I'm gonna do it as much as possible and gaslight you if you complain."

 

[Dot]

..I also know that simply changing one's sex isn't enough to cure whatever issues they're dealing with (if it's not entirely gender dysphoria, or the root of the problem goes deeper than that).

If = nt Ntirely dysphria thn tht snds lke a mis-diagnoss s/ = 2 b xpectd tht transitnng wll nt hlp thse ppl

Mentl hlth = v trcky field -- slf hve bn givn multple diagnoss fr own stuatn as wll mny othr ppl on SaSu & elswhre hve

Therpsts d/ nt alwys gt thngs rght -- thre = line betwn b-ing abl 2 identfy trma-rel8td psychlgcl conditns/ c-ing a 'delusn' & valid8tng a patnts xpernce of a legitm8 conditn - espclly givn wth hw lttle = actlly knwn abt hw 2 proprly treat trma

This may be a bold hypothesis, or claim, but I've seen a pattern, not just trans individuals, but the ones who consider themselves in marginalized groups (black, female, LGB+, etc), and they wear their identity on a sleeve. While I'm fine with what people do, I also know that simply basing your identity on your gender, race, sexuality, or anything of the sort is rather vacuous and comes off as cheap. Anyone can do that, but little do they know, it won't really provide much meaning to their lives.

Thnk thre = dffrnce betwn identfyng wth a grp wh/ shre simlr xpernces & usng tht grp or labl or labl as defnse mechsm agnst life & ppl in it

Fr xampl slf wll alwys identfy wth ppl frm th/ m.e/c.f.s cmmunty bcse othr ppl in tht cmmunty wll shre othrwse isol8tng xpernces tht othr ppl in lfe d/ nt undrstnd -- slf am publc abt tht labl bcse am tryn2 brng awrenss of issus th grp fces-- of whch thre r mny

Wearng tht labl pubclly cn also hlp othr ppl 2 undrstnd slf xperncs & rduce stgma s/ tht livng wth tht conditn = less isol8tng & wld allw slf 2 hve bettr qualty of lfe in sciety genrlly

Stgma & abse tht cmes frm tht cre8tes oppressn whthr = legl or nt -- e.g fr transgendr ppl evdnce of thse 2% r b-ing usd 2 D-legitmse th/ othr 98% & polcy makrs wth thse belfs wll us tht 2 try 2 mke treatmnt mre diffclt fr thse 98% t/ accss -- tht & stgma wll increas violnce agnst tht grp

Slf own xpernce of opprssn happnd in th/ m.e/c.f.s cmmunty whn 'scientsts' wld nt accpt tht a treatmnt tht thy hd devlpd ws harmfl & usd th/ nwspapr mdia 2 gs-lght & ds-credt th/ whle c.f.s cmmunty bcse c.f.s advoc8tes wre publclly D-bunkng thr rsearch -- tht treatmnt hs nw bn removd bt nt b4 harmng mny ppl in th/ cmmunty wh/ wre forcd 2 try it -- ppl wth c.f.s hve histrclly bn lablld as 'lzy' & recnt numbrs showd tht 40% of GPs dd nt belve in th/ illnss dspite suffrers havng 7x highr ctb r8 thn averge

I know from experience in how to deal with nihilism and suffering, and my story is a long one and is one worth telling once I finish it and complete my project. I have gone through my fair share of bullying, racism, abuse, and other things. And for a long time, I was misanthropic, and feared just about everyone, especially the white people, just like some of you fear those who aren't exactly left-wing, accusinh them of being transphobes, racists, bigots, or whatever. But you know what? I detached myself and decided to take action. I cultivated my own set of skills despite my lack of knowledge on the subject. And from there, as I worked tirelessly on my project, and overcame many obstacles just to achieve my goal, I realized I no longer have need of dying. With everything I've done, I'm no longer suicidal. I've found purpose, and not only that, but because I exposed myself to the negatives, I dropped that negative mindset. And I believe everyone could too.

You're born with a unique set of traits, personality, talent, genetics, and so on. If life is tough, ask yourself why and then figure out what you're good at, and then challenge yourself. Once you do something that is actually impacted rather than just using cheat codes, you'll live a satisfying life. That's my point and the proper way to deal with depression.

Slf remmbr th/ commnt of trma 'buildng charctr' whn readng ths st8mnt -- wht u r describng abve snds lke = cld b postve advce fr typcl lfe challnges bt a vetern wth flsh-bcks & PTSD frm combt or a persn wth lfe-limtng physcl or m.h conditn cn only us th/ abve advce 2 'cope'

B4 slf ws brght 2 SaSu slf ws in lovng rlatnshp & usng sklls 2 rlease musc 2 hpeflly inspre othr ppl as wll as othr cre8tve hbbies & stdying pst-gradu8 courss & applyng fr futre jbs -- doin thse thngs dd nt fx own stuatn

If u hve learnd hw 2 live mre healthly in ur own mentl hlth thn tht = gnuinly gd -- un4tun8tly ppl cme 2 SaSu wth rage of prblms tht wll nt alwys fit tht templ8

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Scratch that. Imma take back part of what I say.
I was rather in a state of confusion from a sugar crash and kept dozing off when I was trying to reply, so I gave up.

And also, I had to sleep on it.

I also love how you gish gallop me with dozens of links to scientific articles with no commentary at all. Did you even read these studies? At least I explained to you why I've linked them and how they debunk your narrative about detransitioners. Like what's your point? Sure, HRT has inconvenient side-effects, nobody has ever denied that and that wasn't the point of the discussion either. You're literally bringing up strawmen and you've just moved the goalpost as we discuss this issue. HRT is appropiate given the risk-benefit ratio. Trans people are aware of these risks, we talk to our doctors and we still decide it's the best path for us, because medically speaking, that's a fact. People who transition are a lot happier than people who don't. And look, no treatment comes without risks. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid artrhitis a few years ago. And I received some pretty heavy medication, immune suppression drugs, it does a lot to your body I can tell you that. It's basically a small chemo therapy. I have the feeling that you don't really understand why we give trans people trans-affirming treatment.The point is, it increases our quality of life and makes us live longer.

To some, maybe... but to others... I can't say I'm too sure. However, I'll acknowledge that perhaps it is the path for some people.

I feel like the risk is being downplayed, but I suppose that's just me, who is adversed to taking chances on my body (why I dedicated an entire college semester into curing my own digestive issues like gerd instead of relying on PPIs).

That's what trans people do. They work tirelessly on their transition, on their body, on their appearance to become their true self and to become accepted members of society. These are steps into a happier life. Transition is a journey, not a cheat code.

I could've probably phrased that better on the "cheat code" part, I meant it as in transforming yourself from within... then again, I'm becoming less empathetic as time goes by with my change of habit... which is why I hardly relate to the community these days.

Having said that, what is your "true self"? Why do you need to change your physical appearance to have a good life? It brings me to my point about an individual in this forum who I'll keep anonymous out of respect for his privacy, but when I asked what's up on his dysphoria, he told me that he hates how he has to live with a male body, because of something about masculinity. He didn't want surgery due to scars and potential health problems he'd face, and the fact he wouldn't pass (his words, not mine) as a woman. It was basically do or die for him. No amount of talking would help him accept himself; he's made up his mind. The way I see it, I am unsure if this is self-love; thus is why I strongly suspect there's a deeper reason behind all this. In hindsight, I should've asked how long he's been going through this.

You invite a lot of hate, violence and tragedy into your life if you transition, as I explained above. All the information is out there. You just need to read it. And you need to stop watching so many Youtube videos about singular instances of people detransition and pretend that's in any way representative of the scietific situation. It isn't.

While I do agree some of them are genuinely victims and I sympathize with their sufferinh, the way things are now, and some of the actions of the trans community (can it; criticism doesn't make me a bigot, and the use of labels make them lose meaning the more you use them), I don't see you or anyone as immune to being bullies, especially if what they say goes slightly against your ideology, or dare to question it. And also, I could dig up something about the media as well. Just like the media portrays violence on black people, I also feel like they do the same with trans, female, and other seemingly marginalized individuals with the overrepresentation, and that's coming from a black guy, who also doesn't fall for the idea that Romanian authorities had to look at a pizza box to figure out a man's location like it's Scooby-Doo.

The way I see it, trans people are accepted, no... protected. You speak out against them, BOOM! You're basically cancelled. You lose your job, possibly go to jail regardless of whatever reason as to why you misgender them (for religious reasons). These days, most people are arguably accepting of trans individuals, or simply indifferent and are just concerned with getting on with their lives. I am as well considering I'm indifferent about what people are on the surface, and view everyone as a clean slate indiscriminately. The only I'd start losing respect is if I find that you're a hateful bully, narcissist, and try forcibly telling others how to think (lack of a better word). It's not that my views are outdated or some bullshit, but more of the fact I'm able to see it falling backwards into dogmatic victim culture. Even if I consider someone to be a shitty person, I don't go out of my way to bully them; more likely I'll likely just criticize them (even then as I'm becoming borderline disagreeable and am relating less and lessto the community, I do my best to remain tactful), or never associate with them. I could go on to explain my experiences and observations, like at work where an ex-coworker who calls herself "bi" and treated everyone who isn't like her like absolute trash... or you seeing the worst in people, so... you turn completely hostile, even going as far as to join in the ridicule to clown someon who doesn't think like you. Or discord where femboys and trans people would would call people "faggots" or tell them to kill themselves, all because they think differently.

Point is, as much as I'm doing my best to avoid gaslighting, when you search only for the worst in others, that'll be all you'll find. The only reason I've gotten along with customers regardless of background, or the shirts they're wearing (even the confederate flag shirt), is becasue I gave them the benefit of doubt, while others claim to have bad experiences with customers.

Back to the subject though, there are even trans individuals who see things are getting out of hand.

Look at Dylan Mulvaney, Jeffery Marsh, woke tiktok parents, teachers who try to indoctrinate kids into joining their ideology. Or drag shows where they're now showing fake tits and ass to children (this isn't even conservative propaganda, it's actually a thing). I could go on about this.

But it isn't just the trans community, it's the many branches of woke culture. The way I see it, it's about as bad as the alt-right. Only difference is that they hide behind virtue.

There's a chance I'll have more to say, though I should reply to the other peson. I'll do that later after my phone charges.

 

[Winterreise]

Scratch that. Imma take back part of what I say.
I was rather in a state of confusion from a sugar crash and kept dozing off when I was trying to reply, so I gave up.

And also, I had to sleep on it.

To some, maybe... but to others... I can't say I'm too sure. However, I'll acknowledge that perhaps it is the path for some people.

I feel like the risk is being downplayed, but I suppose that's just me, who is adversed to taking chances on my body (why I dedicated an entire college semester into curing my own digestive issues like gerd instead of relying on PPIs).

I could've probably phrased that better on the "cheat code" part, I meant it as in transforming yourself from within... then again, I'm becoming less empathetic as time goes by with my change of habit... which is why I hardly relate to the community these days.

Having said that, what is your "true self"? Why do you need to change your physical appearance to have a good life? It brings me to my point about an individual in this forum who I'll keep anonymous out of respect for his privacy, but when I asked what's up on his dysphoria, he told me that he hates how he has to live with a male body, because of something about masculinity. He didn't want surgery due to scars and potential health problems he'd face, and the fact he wouldn't pass (his words, not mine) as a woman. It was basically do or die for him. No amount of talking would help him accept himself; he's made up his mind. The way I see it, I am unsure if this is self-love; thus is why I strongly suspect there's a deeper reason behind all this. In hindsight, I should've asked how long he's been going through this.



While I do agree some of them are genuinely victims and I sympathize with their sufferinh, the way things are now, and some of the actions of the trans community (can it; criticism doesn't make me a bigot, and the use of labels make them lose meaning the more you use them), I don't see you or anyone as immune to being bullies, especially if what they say goes slightly against your ideology, or dare to question it. And also, I could dig up something about the media as well. Just like the media portrays violence on black people, I also feel like they do the same with trans, female, and other seemingly marginalized individuals with the overrepresentation, and that's coming from a black guy, who also doesn't fall for the idea that Romanian authorities had to look at a pizza box to figure out a man's location like it's Scooby-Doo.

The way I see it, trans people are accepted, no... protected. You speak out against them, BOOM! You're basically cancelled. You lose your job, possibly go to jail regardless of whatever reason as to why you misgender them (for religious reasons). These days, most people are arguably accepting of trans individuals, or simply indifferent and are just concerned with getting on with their lives. I am as well considering I'm indifferent about what people are on the surface, and view everyone as a clean slate indiscriminately. The only I'd start losing respect is if I find that you're a hateful bully, narcissist, and try forcibly telling others how to think (lack of a better word). It's not that my views are outdated or some bullshit, but more of the fact I'm able to see it falling backwards into dogmatic victim culture. Even if I consider someone to be a shitty person, I don't go out of my way to bully them; more likely I'll likely just criticize them (even then as I'm becoming borderline disagreeable and am relating less and lessto the community, I do my best to remain tactful), or never associate with them. I could go on to explain my experiences and observations, like at work where an ex-coworker who calls herself "bi" and treated everyone who isn't like her like absolute trash... or you seeing the worst in people, so... you turn completely hostile, even going as far as to join in the ridicule to clown someon who doesn't think like you. Or discord where femboys and trans people would would call people "faggots" or tell them to kill themselves, all because they think differently.

Point is, as much as I'm doing my best to avoid gaslighting, when you search only for the worst in others, that'll be all you'll find. The only reason I've gotten along with customers regardless of background, or the shirts they're wearing (even the confederate flag shirt), is becasue I gave them the benefit of doubt, while others claim to have bad experiences with customers.

Back to the subject though, there are even trans individuals who see things are getting out of hand.

Look at Dylan Mulvaney, Jeffery Marsh, woke tiktok parents, teachers who try to indoctrinate kids into joining their ideology. Or drag shows where they're now showing fake tits and ass to children (this isn't even conservative propaganda, it's actually a thing). I could go on about this.

But it isn't just the trans community, it's the many branches of woke culture. The way I see it, it's about as bad as the alt-right. Only difference is that they hide behind virtue.

There's a chance I'll have more to say, though I should reply to the other peson. I'll do that later after my phone charges.

What you call "questioning" is really just smearing of a small group of people who dont recognise themselves and thus are unable to respond. And also , most people couldnt really be bothered with transpeople.
If this is what you want people to believe about transgendered people, then you arent doing them any favour what so ever.
The most pathetic thing is that you take no responsibility for what you say.

There are trans here who actually takes time to KINDLY reply to you. And you think they want to cancel and censor you? Its pathetic.

You know we value free speech. Dont you? Or you wouldnt talk about it all the time. Like we own the internet.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

What you call "questioning" is really just smearing of a small group of people who dont recognise themselves and thus are unable to respond. And also , most people couldnt really be bothered with transpeople.
If this is what you want people to believe about transgendered people, then you arent doing them any favour what so ever.
The most pathetic thing is that you take no responsibility for what you say.

Hold on... I'm actually onto something here.

I feel like we're speaking two different languages... The fact you're likely offended makes it necessary to address this.

First off, I should've mentioned this before, but... this isn't exactly targeted towards trans people entirely. The reason I brought up the trans community is due to them being the most marginalized group, thus... more likely to develop the "slave morality", characterized by victim mentality... I'll get to that in the end.

Trans people first, followed by LGB, then women, then whatever else is in between, and lastly, the incels.

There are trans here who actually takes time to KINDLY reply to you. And you think they want to cancel and censor you? Its pathetic.

I wasn't talking about this topic... but in general, and not exactly with me...

I acknowledge "Dot" for their politeness... for that, I thank them.

You know we value free speech. Dont you? Or you wouldnt talk about it all the time. Like we own the internet.

Yes, and that's where I'm gonna elaborate further... I indeed did get myself derailed off topic, but I guess it goes down to this:

With free speech being a concern, I kinda made an assumption on how we're beginning to lose that, as more and more people are going to get offended as they come up with new identities. So, my solution was to toughen them up, as the people with the slave morality tend to have this resentment towards the people who "opress" them.

Trans people fear cis people due to the possibility of them being transphobes> Homos and Bisexuals fear straights due to the possibility of homophobia> Women fear men because of patriarchy> Men fear women due to misandry> incels fear or hate everyone due to general hostility from all sides.

In order to overcome the fear or slave morality and develop the "master morality" they must learn to build themselves up and self-actualize, going on their own individual life journey to become the higher individual.

If the marginalized individuals can develop that master morality where they're about strength, pride, and action, rather than relying on compassion and victimhood, nothing would offend them, and from there, free speech would basically be just that.

In theory, it could work for everyone, as once you build yourself up, you'll realize you're more than just your gender, race, sexuality, etcetera.



In retrospect, since I'm out of my depth and don't truly understand people except those in a similar background, I suppose we'll just need a well adjusted trans, then a person who overcame dysphoria without transitioning, then LGB, then a we'll adjusted female, male, and then incel to be the ones to lead others into becoming higher individuals. Perhaps in that order, top down.