Venting Frustrated with incels

[ForsakenDial]

It was a general statement.

The general statement is blatantly flawed. That was specifically expressed to you. Let us look at it again since you wish to continue being dishonest.

I personally think some women are obsessed with in-your-face incels, and miss the real threats. But whatevs, let's see how that works out

The very posted you quoted explained why it was a fictitious and weak argument. Your post argues in-your-face incels are less of a threat then the "real ones". Both are a threat to women. Both have the same desires to hurt women as shown indefinite times within incel communities. Incels have killed and rape women. They celebrate the suffering of women. Keep trying to obfuscate that.

Incels are losers under patriarchy & can be organized. Their rage is legitimate & can attack the proper target: patriarchal men & women. As bell hooks argues:

Did anyone argue otherwise? Is this not what the thread has been saying themselves? You're linking and referencing a quote that no one here disagrees with. You're proving nothing by doing this.

By way of analogy, consider Redneck Revolt, who goes into the US's deep South to organize people who are losers under wageslavery. This means people who are often virulently racist — like how incels are often virulently misogynist... This is counter-intuitive for some — why organize people who participate in the KKK? Because if you don't, the KKK will! And the KKK will redirect their legitimate rage away from elites — towards underdogs who didn't do shit to them. Divide & conquer the wageslaves

No one in this thread has qualms with this. Not once was it expressed in this thread that anyone was against pointing incels in the proper direction; Holding the society that placed sexist standards on men just as it did women.

Women are complaining about the constant incel threads popping up about how women are to blame for all their problems. You're transforming a simple complaint about an issue on these forums into entirely new scope and still you're fighting ghost here. You're debating yourself.

Just like women on this thread. The OP's concluding sentence perfectly illustrates bell hook's point: "I have a lot of sympathy for incels. Actually, I believe that they are a product of our capitalistic and uncaring society , but ultimately they need a reality check and possibly a dating app."

Ok, if this is the attitude of sympathetic women, guess who'll organize lonely men. The manosphere. And the manosphere is pro-patriarchy

It is because incels refuse to engage with women as if they were people. Incels rather kill people. Incels rather force women to sleep with them and choose to be misogynistic. Women are not to blame for the patriarchy that constricts their lives. The very person you quote says this herself:

They feel sorry for men because they see how patriarchy wounds them and yet men remain wedded to patriarchal culture.

This alone makes it difficult for women to ever cross that barrier. Many men fight for their right to live their life as they choose. For society to no longer judge them for not fitting within the mascline mold that held them for so long. Only men can choose that for themselves. No women can force them. There are no freedoms men are being denied by law. There is no supreme court ruling that determined what a man could do with his body. But the law does tell what his sisters and mothers can do with theirs.

And lets not lump all men in with incels. The vast majority of men are not incels. The vast majority of men are not in the manosphere. The vast majority of men are good people.

While visionary thinkers have called attention to the way patriarchy hurts men, there has never been an ongoing effort made to address male pain. To this day I hear individual feminist women express their concern for the plight of men within patriarchy, even as they share that they are unwilling to give their energy to help educate and change men. Feminist writer Minnie Bruce Pratt states the position clearly: "How are men going to change? The meeting between two people, where one opposes the other, is the point of change. But I don't want the personal contact. I don't want to do it.... When people talk about not giving men our energies, I agree with that.... They have to deliver themselves." These attitudes, coupled with the negative attitudes of most men toward feminist thinking, meant that there was never a collective, affirming call for boys and men to join feminist movement so that they would be liberated from patriarchy.

Minnie is right in this particular part of this book. Only men can choose to liberate themselves from the social confines. No women can do it for them. Women have already made it clear they are willing to support them when they decide to.

That's why men now separate politically from women (from Financial Times):

You're completely misrepresenting this chart. Women have went further left and men had stayed relatively the same in the United States. The vast majority of men support abortion rights, equal rights, and gay rights within the States. South Korea for the longest time has had an extremely abusive system towards women which caused the 4B movement. My knowledge on Germany is limited but it has always been far more left leaning than the United States in comparison. A similar case to the UK.

This is about the idealogy gap between genders but does not state what this idealogy is. You again proved nothing. Do you think quoting writers and charts out of context proves anything? Did you actually study any of these things you are referencing or pretending to know what you're talking about?

So let me be clear. I don't know incels irl — I first learned about them here on SaSu. The guys I know have gals, and are charming & successful. Last month, I had a literal locker room talk with one such fellow, who noticed I was listening to Fresh & Fit. I started to joke in embarrassment about my toxic masculinity — and he said no: it's absurd that women have the full vote, their decisionmaking is irrational, etc This isn't a one-off. I keep hearing this from men, a dark enlightenment that their sympathy for women was in error; that women are over-emotional talkative buffoons; that our elders were sadly right in stripping them of political participation, because a woman with a vote is like a chimp with a machinegun. That locker room wasn't cheap to get into. These men are the organized ones of my kind, with networks, motivation & skills. I've needed to fight men who attacked girls & women. (Unlike all those virtue-signaling feminists who don't lift a finger for poor women, and can't even define patriarchy.) And I think: the winners are the ones who'll rollback the gains of women's movements — even ones now considered social common sense, like the right to vote

Those are the people you choose to surround yourself with. Those men you choose to be around is not the majority of people. Most people do not know who Fresh & Fit are. And most of them who do know they are a laughing stock who don't practice what they preach. They are more emotional and irrational than the majority of women on that show.

I suppose you should note the traitors amongst women too..

Shocker. People are individuals. There are bad people of both genders. Its not the gotcha you think it is.

Here endeth my rant. Instead of answering online flames, I have irl people to help — mostly women. People are suffering all around me. One woman gets on my case for wasting time on argumentative suicide-forum people: "They're dying anyway"

She's right. I'm responding to the moaning of the dead. It's the living who act to solve problems, and could use my assistance. Flame away

Let's be honest now. You're roleplaying. You're not helping anyone. You're probably spending all day consuming redpill content and pretending to be an enlightened soul as you copy and paste quotes out of context. Your response earlier to @BojackHorseman was women masterbait with dead animals in their mouths. Do you think that makes you look good? Then changed the scope of discussion because you was thoroughly proven to be someone who actually has no substance to what they say.

Theres a reason you chose to go on a suicide forum to babble bombastically and say ultimately nothing. Its because you thought you wouldn't get any pushback, and will have the comfort in thinking anyone who disagrees with you will die anyway. Don't choke on your pacifier while you're at it.

 

[derpyderpins]

A lot of the lingo and nuance is lost on me in terms of people who identify as incel or are actively part of a group of are just lonely guys who get called incel, but I'll say I feel a lot of empathy for lonely guys who are trying to do things the right way, and I think it's good to lend an ear and be supportive before the rejection leads them too far down the path of bitterness that they end up the type who are angry and foul.

I'm sure for a lonely guy who isn't mean to people and is trying to work on himself, this kind of thread probably pushes him further towards that toxic mindset. 'Oh, damn... People really do hate guys like me, maybe that red pill incel community is right.' Idk, it's a sad situation.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

I'm not the one buying the alcohol, they're buying it themselves. I'm just taking advantage of the situation. But I guess your snowflake generation can't understand that.

That's not what you were saying before, you posted twice that you were deliberately trying to get women drunk and that your stopping point was unconsciousness.

Second, it's irrelevant who buys the alcohol. If you're taking advantage of someone that is too drunk to give informed consent, that is the legal definition of rape. That stage of drunkenness happens before unconsciousness. If someone is acting in a way they normally wouldn't when drunk, if they are sick, if they cannot walk properly, then this is considered as being incapacitated from drunkenness. You have a responsibility to not rape somebody else, stop shifting the blame to other people.

In what possible light do you think "taking advantage of the situation" sounds anything but malevolent? I don't understand how your brain works.

He unfortunately seems like a rapist..... this person should be blocked by mods in my opinion....

I reported them for saying they would rape somebody in revenge. By legal definitions they are encouraging rape too imo, with their clear defiance that there's nothing wrong with their behaviour and stated intentions, when that behaviour and those intentions are to rape women, even if they don't see it as rape. Rape is an absolute crime, that can be widely prosecuted without criminal intent, although I would argue that it is definitely there here!

 

[SexyIncél]

Let's be honest now. You're roleplaying. You're not helping anyone. You're probably spending all day consuming redpill content and pretending to be an enlightened soul as you copy and paste quotes out of context.

Actually, I've counterattacked rapists & other men who abused women & girls. In the workplace, etc. Putting my body & job on the line. While I obviously can't disclose details, I can provide receipts that would convince most people that I indeed have done such things

Before I continue with you, could you please tell us what direct action you engaged in, to help abused women? Furthermore, could you please define patriarchy?

(I will note: in the other thread, you knowingly supported a guy who covers for a famous child abuser who beat up little girls)

 

[ForsakenDial]

Actually, I've counterattacked rapists & other men who abused women & girls. In the workplace, etc. Putting my body & job on the line. While I obviously can't disclose details, I can provide receipts that would convince most people that I indeed have done such things

Before I continue with you, could you please tell us what direct action you engaged in, to help abused women? Furthermore, could you please define patriarchy?

Sure you have. No one is believing the lies you spew consistently anymore. You made bad points in this thread, misrepresented information at best and lied at worst. You're not saving any women, you're not putting your job at risk if you even have one. You can't even win the debate against points people didn't even make. But you want people to believe that you're some savior? That you do anything other than pretend to have multiple girlfriends and a high paying job on a suicide forum?

After you say things like this?:

Here endeth my rant. Instead of answering online flames, I have irl people to help — mostly women. People are suffering all around me. One woman gets on my case for wasting time on argumentative suicide-forum people: "They're dying anyway"

She's right. I'm responding to the moaning of the dead. It's the living who act to solve problems, and use all the help they can get. Flame away

I'm vegan & often observe gals masturbate their tongues with an animal's corpse. I've snapped this bloody porn for their instagrams; listen to their obsessive ranting about wanting to swallow milk intended for baby animals. Guess people have their little obsessions

After you basically cried: "Feminist!!" because someone calmly explained why they didn't want to engage with your further??

Then why reply to me, even though you claim not to understand my points? To get in some last angry putdowns against a man, before you run off?

And you're ending rebuttal, your final desperate defense after behaving this way throughout this thread... Is whether or not I can define patriarchy? That's your rebuttal?

 

[SexyIncél]

And you're ending rebuttal, your final desperate defense after behaving this way throughout this thread... Is whether or not I can define patriarchy? That's your rebuttal?

'twas just two simple requests. If you've done any substantial direct action to help abused women, others could learn from your case studies! And though the word "patriarchy" is thrown about so often, too few people know what it actually means

More importantly, it helps us evaluate your analyses in light of a) what you've done, and b) what you know

As I told derpyderpins yesterday, I'm not debating. It's not a defense, not a rebuttal. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This subject is too important for such games. I'm requesting information from you. It could be useful

Sure you have. No one is believing the lies you spew consistently anymore. You made bad points in this thread, misrepresented information at best and lied at worst. You're not saving any women, you're not putting your job at risk if you even have one. You can't even win the debate against points people didn't even make. But you want people to believe that you're some savior? That you do anything other than pretend to have multiple girlfriends and a high paying job on a suicide forum?

Be that as it may, I'm happy to speak about effective direct action to help abused girls & women. Does anyone want this conversation, rich with case studies of what we've all done? Or is this just the usual internet flamewar between cowards — all words & no action?

---

Oh, and you may have missed this addition I made to my last post. Sorry, I don't think you got notified for it. I'm just pointing it out, so you have a chance to rebut it, if you so desire:

(I will note: in the other thread, you knowingly supported a guy who covers for a famous child abuser who beat up little girls)

 

[ForsakenDial]

'twas just two simple requests. If you've done any substantial direct action to help abused women, others could learn from your case studies! And though the word "patriarchy" is thrown about so often, too few people know what it actually means

You're giving me second hand embarrassment with how you carry yourself. You're asking a definition for a single word to derail the conversation from all the lies you spewed in all your previous post. You moved the original conversation about how this forum has a lot of incels to a grander scale of society.

Then proven wrong on the debate you started you're now trying to move the realm of discussion again. Now to your constant roleplay of this character you insist on trying to convince others you are. Any answer I give you will shift the discussion to you pretending to informed while misrepresenting data and quotes from culture war books.

More importantly, it helps us evaluate your analyses in light of a) what you've done, and b) what you know

It I told derpyderpins yesterday, I'm not debating. It's not a defense, not a rebuttal. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This subject is too important for such games. I'm requesting information from you. It could be useful

You was wrong. It's that simple. It was explained in detail if you are curious to see it again. This subject was originally about incels on the forum. You're playing games right now and attempting to put a veil of grand importance to hide you can't make a coherent point about anything. You can't even stay on topic.

Be that as it may, I'm happy to speak about effective direct action to help abused girls & women. Does anyone want this conversation, rich with case studies of what we've all done? Or is this just the usual internet flamewar between cowards — all words & no action?

Its not a flame war. Its you starting an argument with women, bringing entirely irrelevant points, and making a fool of yourself.

Oh, and you may have missed this addition I made to my last post. Sorry, I don't think you got notified for it. I'm just pointing it out, so you have a chance to rebut it, if you so desire:

I already gave a reply. You lied about the forum being ran by incels when they were the founders. I posted evidence that was stated by the administrators themselves. You then lied about me supporting some person who beats up kids and abuses them with no evidence. You lie, obfuscate, and then lie again.

 

[odradek]

'twas just two simple requests. If you've done any substantial direct action to help abused women, others could learn from your case studies! And though the word "patriarchy" is thrown about so often, too few people know what it actually means

More importantly, it helps us evaluate your analyses in light of a) what you've done, and b) what you know

As I told derpyderpins yesterday, I'm not debating. It's not a defense, not a rebuttal. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This subject is too important for such games. I'm requesting information from you. It could be useful


Be that as it may, I'm happy to speak about effective direct action to help abused girls & women. Does anyone want this conversation, rich with case studies of what we've all done? Or is this just the usual internet flamewar between cowards — all words & no action?

---

Oh, and you may have missed this addition I made to my last post. Sorry, I don't think you got notified for it. I'm just pointing it out, so you have a chance to rebut it, if you so desire:

Dude this is not it. Here's something for you to consider. When I first saw someone named 'SexyIncel' quoting bell hooks (just a tangentially interesting but irrelevant thought I had, you choose to capitalize your username lol) I thought it was quite absurd but interesting and I was cautiously optimistic.

One of the core frames of her analysis is race. You bring her up so often but you rarely bring in the racial dynamics of her writing. I think you might be missing the forest for the trees here.

Another thing, remember when Mr. Rogers said "Look for the helpers."? He did not in fact say "Listen to the people who proclaim they are helpers."

 

[SexyIncél]

You're giving me second hand embarrassment with how you carry yourself.

Absolutely fine. I extend my invitation to everyone — and broaden it

Perhaps in a new thread, please share your hard-won lessons & case studies if you've done either of the following:

• Reached out to an anti-woman incel, struggled together with him to help solve his problems, and he eventually raised his consciousness
• Engaged in direct action to counterattack abusers of women/girls (under the victims' direction)

Those who come after you can then learn from your mistakes — and be safer. These are obviously good things

One of the core frames of her analysis is race. You bring her up so often but you rarely bring in the racial dynamics of her writing. I think you might be missing the forest for the trees here.

Well, bell hooks describes US politics as "imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy". Of these terms, I mentioned capitalism, patriarchy & race — note I cited Redneck Revolt organizing people who are "often virulently racist — like how incels are often virulently misogynist"

Then I quoted their goal of "the total liberation of all working people, regardless of skin color, religious background, sexual orientation, gender, country of birth, or any other division that bosses and politicians have used to fragment movements for social, political, and economic freedom."

Can you name anyone else in this thread who mentioned: imperalism, white supremacy, capitalism & patriarchy? (Let's be friendly & say I didn't tick the imperialism box. Though tbh Redneck Revolt's solidarity statement sounds pret-ty anti imperalist to me...)

Another thing, remember when Mr. Rogers said "Look for the helpers."? He did not in fact say "Listen to the people who proclaim they are helpers."

Great! Any helpers: please take my above invitation. Mr. Rogers tells us to look for you

 

[odradek]

Absolutely fine. I extend my invitation to everyone — and broaden it

Perhaps in a new thread, please share your hard-won lessons & case studies if you've done either of the following:

• Reached out to an anti-woman incel, struggled with him through his problems, and he eventually raised his consciousness
• Engaged in direct action to counterattack abusers of women/girls (under the victims' direction)

Those who come after you can then learn from your mistakes — and be safer. These are obviously good things


Well, bell hooks describes US politics as "imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy". Of these terms, I mentioned capitalism, patriarchy & race — note I cited Redneck Revolt organizing people "often virulently racist — like how incels are often virulently misogynist"

Then I quoted their words about "the total liberation of all working people, regardless of skin color, religious background, sexual orientation, gender, country of birth, or any other division that bosses and politicians have used to fragment movements for social, political, and economic freedom."

Can you name anyone else in this thread who mentioned: imperalism, white supremacy, capitalism & patriarchy? (Let's be friendly & say I didn't tick the imperialism box. Though tbh Redneck Revolt's solidarity statement sounds pret-ty anti imperalist to me...)


Great! Any helpers: please take my above invitation. Mr. Rogers tells us to look for you

I think you're missing my point but that's okay. Agree to disagree, I'll disengage here.

As a side note, It's an interesting pattern in these type of threads. Meaning: A person who identifies as a woman vents her frustrations about men as an OP. The probability that someone who identifies as a man chiming with something like: Men have it hard too." or that an elightened centrist will create a false equivalency increases exponentially with each comment. You could probably make an equation, but I am definitely not smart enough for that lol. Anyway sorry for interjecting.

 

[SexyIncél]

I think you're missing my point but that's okay. Agree to disagree, I'll disengage here.

As a side note, It's an interesting pattern in these type of threads. Meaning: A person who identifies as a woman vents her frustrations about men as an OP. The probability that someone who identifies as a man chiming with something like: Men have it hard too." or that an elightened centrist will create a false equivalency increases exponentially with each comment. You could probably make an equation, but I am definitely not smart enough for that lol. Anyway sorry for interjecting.

Don't be sorry! Inter-gender threads get heated, because we're talking about one form of "relationships that contain at once the greatest intimacy and the deepest forms of structural violence"

tbh I hope ForsakenDial got some catharsis from whacking away at me :)

Anyway, maybe I missed your point; or maybe we disagree on fundamental assumptions. That's ok. Perhaps one of us may later change our minds

 

[Suicidebydeath]

You could probably make an equation

Hi, I agree with everything you and ForsakenDial said. Also:

lim P(n) -> 1 as n -> ∞, with the rate of increase accelerating exponentially,
where n = the number of posts and P is the probability function of the event described occurring

 

[eatantz]

A lot of the lingo and nuance is lost on me in terms of people who identify as incel or are actively part of a group of are just lonely guys who get called incel, but I'll say I feel a lot of empathy for lonely guys who are trying to do things the right way, and I think it's good to lend an ear and be supportive before the rejection leads them too far down the path of bitterness that they end up the type who are angry and foul.

I'm sure for a lonely guy who isn't mean to people and is trying to work on himself, this kind of thread probably pushes him further towards that toxic mindset. 'Oh, damn... People really do hate guys like me, maybe that red pill incel community is right.' Idk, it's a sad situation.

How did you make this about mens issues? What about lonely girls who see constant posts of men complaining and bashing women for simply existing? its exhausting and in my experience pushed my depression over the edge. Instead of focusing on gender we should just talk about lonely people in general.

All I'm hearing is 'men, men, men, focus and pander for lonely men' What about everyone else?? Everyone struggles and that's the point of this thread, I feel like that went over your head with the last line you wrote

 

[SexyIncél]

How did you make this about mens issues? What about lonely girls who see constant posts of men complaining and bashing women for simply existing? its exhausting and in my experience pushed my depression over the edge. Instead of focusing on gender we should just talk about lonely people in general.

All I'm hearing is 'men, men, men, focus and pander for lonely men' What about everyone else?? Everyone struggles and that's the point of this thread, I feel like that went over your head with the last line you wrote

Well, this is a diverse forum — women too rightly feel entitled to share their perspectives, when a man makes a thread critiquing women

And this topic seemed to mention men's issues — your OP critiques "incels/misogynists blaming specifically women for their issues", explaining "the real culprit is society and humans as a whole". I agree

And as you explained, it's also about "lonely girls who see constant posts of men complaining and bashing women for simply existing". Very true

So anyway, @derpyderpins posted the perspective of one such guy who's "trying to work on himself", who may be organized by "that red pill incel community" which ACTS & provides them services. In contrast to things like "a reality check and possibly a dating app."

And this too is true. That's exactly what redpillers do. And radical black feminists have pointed it out in books. They yell at men to ACT. To help themselves & their communities. In contrast to some crab-mentality people on this thread... who not only don't seem to act much to help others, but naturally decry those who do act. Probably ashamed by their distance between easy opinion & hard action

 

[eatantz]

Well, this is a diverse forum — women too rightly feel entitled to share their perspectives, when a man makes a thread critiquing women

And this topic seemed to mention men's issues — your OP critiques "incels/misogynists blaming specifically women for their issues", explaining "the real culprit is society and humans as a whole". I agree

And as you explained, it's also about "lonely girls who see constant posts of men complaining and bashing women for simply existing". Very true

So anyway, @derpyderpins posted the perspective of one such guy who's "trying to work on himself", who may be organized by "that red pill incel community" which ACTS & provides them services. In contrast to things like "a reality check and possibly a dating app."

And this too is true. That's exactly what redpillers do. And radical black feminists have pointed it out in books. They yell at men to ACT. To help themselves & their communities. In contrast to some crab-mentality people on this thread... who not only don't seem to act much to help others, but naturally decry those who do act. Probably ashamed by their distance between easy opinion & hard action

I see your posts and I find you quite scary and intimidating but this was a very nice and insightful response, thank you!

 

[derpyderpins]

How did you make this about mens issues? What about lonely girls who see constant posts of men complaining and bashing women for simply existing? its exhausting and in my experience pushed my depression over the edge. Instead of focusing on gender we should just talk about lonely people in general.

All I'm hearing is 'men, men, men, focus and pander for lonely men' What about everyone else?? Everyone struggles and that's the point of this thread, I feel like that went over your head with the last line you wrote

I guess I interpreted the thread as being about men's struggles, though... Their struggles leading them to abhorrent behavior not to be excused. I gave my thoughts on the whole "incel" thing.

If you want to make a thread about problems women face, I'd be happy to jump in and support them, although I can't offer direct experience and it would be disingenuous as a man to say I understand, but I think it could be enlightening.

I'm more of a support guy than a bash a group guy, I guess.

 

[Yuina]

I'm so fed up with incels/misogynists blaming specifically women for their issues when the real culprit is society and humans as a whole. Pretty privilege/lookism is something all genders have to deal with so I don't understand why they target women. Even if you have bad experiences with women, why does that make the majority or all women bad?

I also don't get why they act like only men experience this, when plastic surgery is dominated by women. [20 million cosmetic procedures were carried out worldwide in 2014, with women accounting for 86.3% of the total amount and men accounting for 13.7% according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery . My whole life I was taught and shown by people that men care only for looks (obviously this isn't true) but I used common sense and realised that everyone is different. Why can't incels realise this?

Finally, I've seen a lot of men online talking about how to become more attractive to get women [which is vain and people should focus on having hobbies instead] and I just want to say, all my friends date conventionally unattractive guys. Like my dads so ugly and old and broke and has been in so many relationships with beautiful women. I mean Jayz and Beyonce??
You don't need to be 6,7ft with a perfect jawline to get a partner or even to just have sex, literally 8 billion people in the world. Just have a decent personality and learn to be less superficial and vain, it's not worth it since we all age and become ugly anyway.

I have a lot of sympathy for incels. Actually, I believe that they are a product of our capitalistic and uncaring society , but ultimately they need a reality check and possibly a dating app.

Yes, I agree with you. I am afraid that I will never be able to get in a relationship or experience love because the internet keeps pushing this type of content to me. I keep seeing things about the "modern woman," which I still don't know what that means, and how men are "flocking to foreign countries" to find "more feminine and traditional women to marry." I try to escape it. It makes me feel like all men think like this, even though I know it's not true.

I don't hate men, I know they don't all think this way, I know they need help, and yet I am scared.

I don't want to be hated just for being a girl.

 

[eatantz]

Yes, I agree with you. I am afraid that I will never be able to get in a relationship or experience love because the internet keeps pushing this type of content to me. I keep seeing things about the "modern woman," which I still don't know what that means, and how men are "flocking to foreign countries" to find "more feminine and traditional women to marry." I try to escape it. It makes me feel like all men think like this, even though I know it's not true.

I don't hate men, I know they don't all think this way, I know they need help, and yet I am scared.

I don't want to be hated just for being a girl.

You summed up my thoughts perfectly. I was scared for so long that i would never be in a relationship since i saw so many posts online of the 'modern women' and how women should act and dress. It was suffocating and it made me hate myself even more, for just being a women since i felt less than.

But its pointless thinking that way, i just block it out now because I'm going to die anyway so i might as well live and think how i want.

 

[Yuina]

You summed up my thoughts perfectly. I was scared for so long that i would never be in a relationship since i saw so many posts online of the 'modern women' and how women should act and dress. It was suffocating and it made me hate myself even more, for just being a women since i felt less than.

But its pointless thinking that way, i just block it out now because I'm going to die anyway so i might as well live and think how i want.

Exactly. It makes me feel like I'm (and other women) only good for one thing, which I have seen people say online before. It's usually along the lines of: "Don't marry a woman if they can't cook or clean, that's all they're good for." It's very dehumanizing, even though I sympathize.

Absolutely do what you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[SexyIncél]

I see your posts and I find you quite scary and intimidating but this was a very nice and insightful response, thank you!

Argh! Nonono, I'm sorry. If you met me, you'd probably find me a goofball who smiles a fair bit. But I have cultivated a little cocky swagger... because y'know, in this society I gotta be masculine & all. It does make some people hate me... but I guess my morality's judged by the cravenness of my enemies

Anyway. I hope you see through my persona, these masks we wear

Hmm, thinking deeper... I guess it can darken you, to learn the arts of antagonism. Seeing some abusive boss or whatever, and calculating his underlying interests — in order to attack them. Such a waste of time. And if you do it well enough... yeah, maybe you do become scary/intimidating. Because it's kinda monstrous. Even if you're a monster for the right side

It makes me feel like I'm (and other women) only good for one thing, which I have seen people say online before. It's usually along the lines of: "Don't marry a woman if they can't cook or clean, that's all they're good for." It's very dehumanizing, even though I sympathize.

Yeah, it's a redpill trap: offering women wageslave vs housewife. Says a lot about wageslavery that many women prefer housewife

 

[Ares]

I'm so fed up with incels/misogynists blaming specifically women for their issues when the real culprit is society and humans as a whole. Pretty privilege/lookism is something all genders have to deal with so I don't understand why they target women. Even if you have bad experiences with women, why does that make the majority or all women bad?

I also don't get why they act like only men experience this, when plastic surgery is dominated by women. [20 million cosmetic procedures were carried out worldwide in 2014, with women accounting for 86.3% of the total amount and men accounting for 13.7% according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery . My whole life I was taught and shown by people that men care only for looks (obviously this isn't true) but I used common sense and realised that everyone is different. Why can't incels realise this?

Finally, I've seen a lot of men online talking about how to become more attractive to get women [which is vain and people should focus on having hobbies instead] and I just want to say, all my friends date conventionally unattractive guys. Like my dads so ugly and old and broke and has been in so many relationships with beautiful women. I mean Jayz and Beyonce??
You don't need to be 6,7ft with a perfect jawline to get a partner or even to just have sex, literally 8 billion people in the world. Just have a decent personality and learn to be less superficial and vain, it's not worth it since we all age and become ugly anyway.

I have a lot of sympathy for incels. Actually, I believe that they are a product of our capitalistic and uncaring society , but ultimately they need a reality check and possibly a dating app.

Sometimes I forget people act... that way. I had to google "incel" just to remember exactly what the term described. It is so illogical, that people can look at others this way and blame them for their own misgivings, to believe that they're entitled to greatness. The solution isn't to place your frustrations on others but instead to confront yourself internally and rid yourself of that... idiocy, really. I live in the U.S. but it still astounds me that people really, actually, legitimately think this way sometimes. I honestly don't give much thought to superficial people like that. They aren't worth it. Not that they can't change! But I won't be the one to help out the unwilling anymore, it's an uphill battle and I'd rather spend my energy on improving myself than thinking about people who refuse to look at things from anothers perspective.

 

[Yuina]

Yeah, it's a redpill trap: offering women wageslave vs housewife. Says a lot about wageslavery that many women prefer housewife

Genuine question, is being a housewife even possible anymore? I've heard some people work two jobs and still don't make enough money to get by, or that two working parents almost isn't enough to provide for their family. Which one is even more "valuable?"

 

[SexyIncél]

Genuine question, is being a housewife even possible anymore? I've heard some people work two jobs and still don't make enough money to get by, or that two working parents almost isn't enough to provide for their family. Which one is even more "valuable?"

Ooh, good point

Yeah, one common redpill advice to guys in their 20s: spend your 20s gaining skills. You have zero value to other men, until you can perform. In your 30s, if you succeeded, then you get options & luxuries — like a stay-at-home gal. If that's what you want

Most men can't easily do this, as I understand. This gives the winners more options, with women who wanna be housewives

Many don't realize that Fresh & Fit has a ton of shows on finance & stuff. Not just lurid panels with 7 women. Other redpillers make money off consulting & such, to help men succeed

(This of course is oversimplified. For example, money alone fails to arouse women's emotions & loyalty. Thus you should build yourself into a "full stack man")

 

[Yuina]

Ooh, good point

Yeah, one common redpill advice to guys in their 20s: spend your 20s gaining skills. You have zero value to other men, until you can perform. In your 30s, if you succeeded, then you get options & luxuries — like a stay-at-home gal. If that's what you want

Most men can't easily do this, as I understand. This gives the winners more options, with women who wanna be housewives

Many don't realize that Fresh & Fit has a ton of shows on finance & stuff. Not just lurid panels with 7 women. Other redpillers make money off consulting & such, to help men succeed

(This of course is oversimplified. For example, money alone fails to arouse women's emotions & loyalty. Thus you should build yourself into a "full stack man")

Interesting. I'm not a man so I guess I don't understand how this mindset works, but I'm always willing to listen to other perspectives. I'd really have no problem being a housewife if it was actually viable, meaning if I found the right person, but I suppose I also don't want to be seen as a prize to be won. That being said, a lot of men I've seen online view all women as gold-diggers only after them for their money, but then push making money as the only way to attract women. It doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[WhatAFish]

Welp, since you posted here, I'm blackpilled

 

[escape_from_hell]

May I ask some possibly dumb questions of any patient forum members still involved heavily in public life, with big social circles or a lot of "IRL" acquaintances? Sorry kind of a long post...
Because I nuked my social life (job, relationship, friends) during the whole covid fiasco and do not have much real life interactions other than gym, grocery, and trying to go back to school for a career change (not making friends there).

But, I've been reading a lot about inceldom and poor relations between the sexes online for quite a while, even years before covid. It's everywhere on the internet, even in comments on many youtube videos and news articles. Those comments have grown over time for sure. You can see this topic all over the place now, even here where people want to die (and this forum was created by the incels running the major incel forum I think?).

BUT I have not heard anyone in real life actually claiming to be an incel or reciting many of the specifically incel talking points. If you lurk over at that major incel forum, which I and I'm sure many have done given all the talk, you'll see that even they, including the most inflammatory, frequently state it would be social suicide to say any of that stuff in real life. Hell, it seems like people would be more accepted saying they love Hitler or torture bunnies than admitting they 'subscribe to incel ideology' publicly.

So my questions are:
For the many women frustrated with incels, is this from actual in-person encounters with them?
I'm a guy so I would not face whatever you are encountering in public, except for possible attacks for being a 'chad' for being with girlfriends in public before covid. However, as a guy, I have not heard any 'locker talk' or 'dudebro shit talk' from any guy coming anywhere close to admitting incel ideology.
So I'm just curious if this is mostly frustration with the online communities or if there are greatly increased instances of guys (more than the baseline number of seriously disturbed and criminals) that are approaching women face-to-face and stating incel talking points. OR like, how do you know if the guy is an incel? Other than if you personally wouldn't find him fuckable, like I mean how do you know they are into the ideology just seeing everyday people?

Since it's talked about online so much, even I'm getting kinda mindfucked and now thinking when I see guys whether are not they are getting laid regularly (I have no idea) and how it might impact their interactions with other men and women. Will a dude think I'm a chad and resent me and treat me like shit if I 'mog' him in some area, or pitying me if he 'mogs' me in some way? Or like, if a woman sees me and thinks I'm not very fuckable looking, will she assume I'm an incel and treat me like a rapist/racist/whatever other stereotype? I ask this because public life in the past five years in the USA, it does seem like many (not all but noticeably higher %age than say 20 years ago) men, women, trans, anybody, is just hostile as fuck--unless you are in their friend group or something.

I have heard sort of 'red-pill' talking points from dudes, like pick-up artist type talk and behaviour. Have also heard women accuse guys of 'peacocking' and stuff like that on a vacation before covid. So some manosphere stuff I've seen in the wild but definitely not straight up incel talk.
From how big the topic is getting online, I imagine it is driving at least some behaviour. I can imagine guys getting more creepy and sexualizing women more in obsession with trying to not be seen as an incel or lose their virginity, ironically. Hell, I'm getting paranoid now being in public without a girlfriend next to me as proof I'm not evil--like is everyone thinking I am an incel or some shit (I hardly talk) by being out and about? I'm attracted to women, but I try not to ogle them or shit. However, by being attracted to women, that kind of inherently comes with occasional sexual thoughts, honestly it is HARD to just try to NEVER even for a microsecond look at extremely revealing short shorts, breasts hanging out, yoga pants literally sucked inside of asscracks--and that is pretty common attire so it's even hurting my neck to like force myself to look at the ground everywhere I go so I don't get thought of as a rapist. I'm starting to get paranoid try to just not look at anyone at all out of fear of being labeled a creep or incel or something?

The war of the sexes shit is so heavy online it's making my mental health even worse. Like, I just want the government to offer nembutal. I'm not very attractive maybe average dude, like I think we can all agree the world would be better if society just decided dudes that aren't that hot should be euthanized if it's this huge of a problem (growing problem). I feel like shit and like guilty scum for finding women attractive when I read a lot of stuff even here. Read some threads today here about how vile men are for sexualizing women, all men just treat all women like fuckdolls, all men are responsible for everything males did over past thousands of years, the word patriarchy is everywhere.

I don't feel entitled to sex, but am I truly vile and evil for finding women attractive? Is it legit creepy to smile at a girl in public? I am attracted to women and enjoy seeing them in public, but getting scared to even make eye contact with people now.
I see women as humans absolutely, and I prefer relationships where we are both autonomous human beings not some weird ass competition or need to be this or that role that's fucking exhausting but you know someone you spend time with and care about. And this is a real thought: if you are attracted to the other sex, when you see them to some degree there WILL be sexualization. That doesn't mean you always just see pure fuckmeat nothing else, are there no straight women that ever have sexual thoughts about men? I honestly can't force myself to be gay, I can slightly kill libido with opioids and drugs and shit and making sure I'm like dehydrated or hungry or jerked-out before ever being in public?

Miss being with my girlfriend of seven years, I was happy...it just seemed like we were living normal every day life not attacking the fuck out of each other over stuff like this, ever? Our separation was from moving for jobs/school. I had two other 5+ year relationships. I don't want to state the number of women I've had sex with but there is like some thought that like, hell, you have to start trying to get with more to have some proof/alibi you're not an incel? I will say dating apps are not fun at all--I've met several girls from there before but it IS true that it is a struggle as a guy on there and it fucks with mental health honestly, I'd rather meet people in public but is that even acceptable anymore?
In a sense, aren't we making it even more the case that a man's value is based on how many women he sleeps with, since 'incel' is starting to mean evil and a bad personality, having sex is starting to mean not evil and good personality? There are surely a lot of guys that wanna get laid more often but are not. There's gotta be a better word than 'involuntarily celibate' for all this...I guess 'blackpilled' fits that bill better?

 

[Suicidebydeath]

there is like some thought that like, hell, you have to start trying to get with more to have some proof/alibi you're not an incel?

No, there is absolutely no sense in sleeping with people just to increase some artificial number. The only "proof" someone needs is to be a decent person. I might feel better if I had slept with less people, but it is what it is. I don't have any regrets with any individual though.

You should feel confident in your decisions and that you had good intentions, that's all you need imho. If someone needs proof they're doing something wrong or talking to the wrong person.

 

[ForsakenDial]

So my questions are:
For the many women frustrated with incels, is this from actual in-person encounters with them?
I'm a guy so I would not face whatever you are encountering in public, except for possible attacks for being a 'chad' for being with girlfriends in public before covid. However, as a guy, I have not heard any 'locker talk' or 'dudebro shit talk' from any guy coming anywhere close to admitting incel ideology.
So I'm just curious if this is mostly frustration with the online communities or if there are greatly increased instances of guys (more than the baseline number of seriously disturbed and criminals) that are approaching women face-to-face and stating incel talking points. OR like, how do you know if the guy is an incel? Other than if you personally wouldn't find him fuckable, like I mean how do you know they are into the ideology just seeing everyday people?

I have encountered incels in person before. They do not say their beliefs publicly unless they can get away with it. Their beliefs are no different than the average bad person.

Being a virgin. Being a loner man. Being ugly. Being autistic. Anything of the sort is not what makes an incel in the eyes of a woman.

Incels as a concept has begun to evolve past just being an involuntary celibate. It now means a push to force women to have sex with them. Even if they are not virgins. It means; "I'm involuntarily celibate right now. I want an object(women) to sate my ego and sexual desire."

You do not meet the definition majority of women think of when they say incel. A man being a virgin does not inspire thoughts of incels in women. A man demanding women leave the work force so they are reliant on them screams incel.

You are a good person. The average person is average. And despite the lies incels and redpillers cry from the rooftops average men get dates all the time. Negativity is spread further online than it is in person.

I don't feel entitled to sex, but am I truly vile and evil for finding women attractive? Is it legit creepy to smile at a girl in public? I am attracted to women and enjoy seeing them in public, but getting scared to even make eye contact with people now.
I see women as humans absolutely, and I prefer relationships where we are both autonomous human beings not some weird ass competition or need to be this or that role that's fucking exhausting but you know someone you spend time with and care about. And this is a real thought: if you are attracted to the other sex, when you see them to some degree there WILL be sexualization. That doesn't mean you always just see pure fuckmeat nothing else, are there no straight women that ever have sexual thoughts about men? I honestly can't force myself to be gay, I can slightly kill libido with opioids and drugs and shit and making sure I'm like dehydrated or hungry or jerked-out before ever being in public?

You are not vile for having normal feelings. If you are a good guy and smile at a girl she may smile back. Finding hobbies and meeting others through them will land you a date. You will meet women with similar interest. We grow old and ugly anyway. A woman wants to feel loved for who she is just like you want to be. It'll take some time but you can do it. Your not a monster, you're a person.

That is what this thread is trying to say; Women are people just like men are. Men are people just like women are. No one should be judged for their sex.

 

[FadingDawn]

I'm so fed up with incels/misogynists blaming specifically women for their issues when the real culprit is society and humans as a whole. Pretty privilege/lookism is something all genders have to deal with so I don't understand why they target women. Even if you have bad experiences with women, why does that make the majority or all women bad?

I also don't get why they act like only men experience this, when plastic surgery is dominated by women. [20 million cosmetic procedures were carried out worldwide in 2014, with women accounting for 86.3% of the total amount and men accounting for 13.7% according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery . My whole life I was taught and shown by people that men care only for looks (obviously this isn't true) but I used common sense and realised that everyone is different. Why can't incels realise this?

Finally, I've seen a lot of men online talking about how to become more attractive to get women [which is vain and people should focus on having hobbies instead] and I just want to say, all my friends date conventionally unattractive guys. Like my dads so ugly and old and broke and has been in so many relationships with beautiful women. I mean Jayz and Beyonce??
You don't need to be 6,7ft with a perfect jawline to get a partner or even to just have sex, literally 8 billion people in the world. Just have a decent personality and learn to be less superficial and vain, it's not worth it since we all age and become ugly anyway.

I have a lot of sympathy for incels. Actually, I believe that they are a product of our capitalistic and uncaring society , but ultimately they need a reality check and possibly a dating app.

Dont' worry, OP; soon, everyone who disagrees with incels on here will be banned for "hurting their poor feefees", while they'll just make up most of this forums users. Mostly because people have freedom to do anything and anywhere, as long as it's not freedom to be spared other's bigotry and idiocy. Mainly, because some incels, when they whine on their own forums about something they don't like, just get called slurs by other members and get ignored. But when they come here, and spread around their nonesense about hypergamy, dating markets, and whine they want to ctb because they get no pussy -- and then someone responds to them in turn, they can suddenly change their mind, and go cry to admins someone is invalidating thier feefees(I of course don't mean any specific person on here, just an incel attitude in general.)Because here, they can be misognists, spread their ideology, and go cry to mods everytime their big manly ego gets hurt. The mods here, and I've been a member here years before on a different account, as I said, -- have absolutetly given up on what the actual community here wants, or desires, and are incompetant and spineless now.

 

[SexyIncél]

Interesting. I'm not a man so I guess I don't understand how this mindset works, but I'm always willing to listen to other perspectives.

Cool! Maybe try being one? Like make an account as a guy on a dating app. Interesting experiment

I also spoke with a transgender man here on SaSu; his views were interesting. Dunno if you can pass as a guy

That's one reason I suggest people amplify others. So for example, I got a great look at what women go through, by struggling with them against an abusive boyfriend or boss. Not to mention amusing details of their jobs & such:

"Suppose, for example, that I am a teacher who loves mathematics. I encounter a student who is doing poorly, and I decide to have a talk with him. He tells me that he hates mathematics. I do not begin with dazzling performances designed to intrigue him or to change his attitude. I begin, as nearly as I can, with the view from his eyes: Mathematics is bleak, jumbled, scary, boring, boring, boring. From that point on, we struggle together with it."

— section on midwife teaching, in "Women's Ways of Knowing"

That being said, a lot of men I've seen online view all women as gold-diggers only after them for their money, but then push making money as the only way to attract women. It doesn't make much sense to me.

I guess they're the kind who internalized being a Good Boy, following orders in some soulless corporation doing nothing earth-shaking, etc?

Aristotle claimed that that love relationships (including friendship, etc) are based on one of 3 things:

1. pleasure: not enduring, as pleasures change. Associated with younger people
2. use: not enduring, as people's usefulness changes. Associated with older people
3. compatible virtues: enduring, and are both pleasurable & useful. Unfortunately, such people are harder to find, because intellectual & moral virtues take time & effort to develop. (fwiw, he says you develop intellectual virtues by teaching, and moral virtues by practicing moral acts)

Oopsie — they advocate #2. And they wonder why they get used by people who don't find them fun :P

I'd really have no problem being a housewife if it was actually viable, meaning if I found the right person, but I suppose I also don't want to be seen as a prize to be won.

Yeah, hard to find a respectful job. And respectful relationship. Reminds me of this new thread: "No one likes me, they just like the idea of me, the me I say I am the me i put forward"

"The idea of me" — I like that. Not me, their idea of me. And if you don't fit that idea, they may mutilate you until you do