Feel Like I Messed Up My Last Chance

[KafkaF]

I'm currently in a suicidal depression. But this isn't the first time I have been. Depending on how exactly you count, I've had 5 or 6 depressions all told. I've been depressed on and off for over a decade, ever since I was a teenager. In fact, I've spent more time IN a depression than out of one over the last ten years.

Every time so far I've gotten out of the depression again. But every time I feel like it takes something out of me and my circumstances are worse.

During my first depression I'd never dealt with one before. But my circumstances were still pretty good. I was in high school, I had friends, my family's financial situation was good, etc. Outside of my mind there wasn't much WRONG with my life.

I was willing to fight for it though.

I got out of that depression when I met my first girlfriend. And I actually recovered very quickly and really well.

During my second depression I was still young, which was a big advantage. But I couldn't go to school and I didn't really have any friends anymore. That being said, being young, I still had time on my side.

It took me a while, but I became willing to fight to get better again after a while.

The second time I recovered more slowly, but I did recover pretty much fully after enough time. I was pretty ok mentally for several years.

During my third depression it was really bad. This was the first time I really had a strong compulsion to kill myself. Where sometimes it'd hurt so much I'd almost do it on impulse. I'd never had that during previous depressions. But I was still going to college and I still had a girlfriend, so things inside of my life were not terrible.

I still struggled through it though. I figured it would claim me eventually, but I kept struggling and finding things to hold on to.

The third time it took quite a long time to recover but I did recover quite well once things had been sorted out and I was reasonably happy for a while.

During my fourth and fifth depressions it was essentially the same. Girlfriend broke up with me (the same one both times) and I dropped out of college without my diploma and found myself unemployed and too depressed to do much productive. Also the strong impulse to die was back from the third depression both times. One time the only reason I didn't attempt is because I couldn't find any rope. I went looking for it all over the place but I couldn't find it and eventually I gave up.

This time my desire to fight was lessened as well. I was willing to do things to get better, but Ifelt pretty desperate. They all felt like hail maries that I didn't really believe in.

Both times I never fully recovered. I entered a kind of pseudo-depression, tbh. Where I was still kind of depressed, but not nearly as heavily as before. And I was only passively suicidal, not actively.

During this "recovery" period I met my fourth girlfriend whom I loved more than anyone. And when I was with her I was happy. I still struggled with my depression though, especially with anhedonia and executive dysfunction. After a year though I was very, veyr slowly starting to get better. I started writing again, started getting a bit more hands on with my job searching again, etc.

When she broke up with me though all of that completely collapsed again.

Now I'm in the worst depression ever. I have no job, no diploma, no friends, no girlfriend. My depression is so bad that I can barely get out of bed a lot. And most importantly my will to fight is essentially gone.

I've just been exhausted by 10 years of depressions. I hadn't even recovered fully from the last two before this one struck. I just don't feel like I have the energy to fight to get better a sixth time.

So, basically, I tend to think that my fifth recovery was my last chance.

Finding my fourth girlfriend was a minor miracle. I was actually so happy with her. If that had lasted and I had managed to get a job or pushing my writing career forward I might be okay now. Or at least on my way to okay. But that didn't happen.

Most importantly during my fifth depression I still had some tiny amount of fight left in me. And now I feel like I just don't have any left. I just feel completely exhausted. I just don't have the strength to recover a sixth time.

I'd like to believe that somehow everything can be alright again. That I can somehow find the will to fight again. That I just need time and there'll be a moment where I can turn everything around.

But I don't actually believe that.

I don't think I have the desire to fight to get better anymore. I believe I have to die. It's just a question of when I can gather up the courage to do it.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Clearly a case of external and uncontrollable factors and events that made you depressed. Seems really hard to get out of this situation. I hope you find peace with whatever you decide to do.

 

[KafkaF]

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Clearly a case of external and uncontrollable factors and events that made you depressed. Seems really hard to get out of this situation. I hope you find peace with whatever you decide to do.

Thanks.

 

[Ash]

The wheel is exhausting.

 

[surroundedbydemons]

I don't know if I currently share a feeling similar to yours, but I have been experiencing a complete sense of emptiness, even when I am supposed to elicit responses or emotions. I feel completely detached, both from the outside world and from myself. This is probably because of the repeated cycle of attempting things and failing. But I don't know...


Wishing you the best either way.

 

[FitsTime]

I recovered from trauma and partially from depression, but i'm stuck in my mind because I think that, deep inside, I don't want to procreate.
It makes me feel weak and depression takes over again.
I just think that I don't want another human being to live the same life i lived, or i don't want responsibilities. I really don't care about what other ppl think about me, it is my own choice.
The point is that I'm biologically and partially mentally dominated by the will to procreate, but I'm repelling the feeling.
I think that apart from social anxiety and problems, procreation can be a dominante factor.

 

[KafkaF]

I don't know if I currently share a feeling similar to yours, but I have been experiencing a complete sense of emptiness, even when I am supposed to elicit responses or emotions. I feel completely detached, both from the outside world and from myself. This is probably because of the repeated cycle of attempting things and failing. But I don't know...


Wishing you the best either way.

Sounds like you're experiencing depersonalization and derealization. You may want to look that up.

I recovered from trauma and partially from depression, but i'm stuck in my mind because I think that, deep inside, I don't want to procreate.
It makes me feel weak and depression takes over again.
I just think that I don't want another human being to live the same life i lived, or i don't want responsibilities. I really don't care about what other ppl think about me, it is my own choice.
The point is that I'm biologically and partially mentally dominated by the will to procreate, but I'm repelling the feeling.
I think that apart from social anxiety and problems, procreation can be a dominante factor.

There's nothing wrong with not procreating if you don't want to or don't feel up to it or don't want those responsibilities. There's no shame in that and nothing wrong with it.

The one thing I would say is that "I don't want another human being to live the same life I lived" is not necessarily true even if you procreated. Not everyone becomes heavily traumatized or depressed or suicidal. In fact, at any one time only about 5% of adults experience depression and only about 15% of people will experience depression at some point in their lives. It is also your choice on how to raise your child and what to do. You are not your parents. You are not your abuser.

It's wise to be careful about putting someone on the world or not. It is a huge responsibility (one that many parents underestimate) and for those of us who have mental illness or terrible childhoods or are at risk of suicide, it can be a risk to traumatize a child. However, people do get better and you can raise a child better than your parents raised you. It's not impossible.

For the record, I'm not saying you SHOULD have children. I'm just pointing out that "another human being to live the same life I lived" is not necessarily what would happen if you had one. It could, but it'd depend.

 

[ForgottenAgain]

Your post is so relatable. It hurts so much t constantly be on that cycle of being depressed, recovering, getting depressed even more, recovering, etc.
I think it gets harder every time, the more it happens.

I'm in a similar position but in my case my external world is good, I'm the one that can't seem to be happy with it. I'm now on the recovery cycle and I didn't think I would be able to get to it again. I was thinking this was it, off sick for 5 months, hallucinating, suicidal.

I wish we could all just be happy.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I also went through something similar, going through acute depressive periods and then periods of "recovery" (which in some cases just meant transitioning to a more passive suicidal ideation). Your last four paragraphs especially hit hard.

After one of my best periods of recovery in early to mid 2023, I crashed into one of the worst depressions I had ever experienced. This time there was something "off" about it though, it wasn't like the other ones, because this time I knew it was going to be my last. It finally felt like the right time to kill myself.

It's almost as if the initial triggering event (in my case, the onset of my eating disorder) knocked me down, and then each successive event battered me down further and further into the ground, sapping all my strength from me. People tell me that I still have time to get better, and they're right (I'm 23), but I just don't want to fight anymore.

Do you think you'll ever manage to muster up the will to go through with suicide? I fear missing my chance...

 

[KafkaF]

I also went through something similar, going through acute depressive periods and then periods of "recovery" (which in some cases just meant transitioning to a more passive suicidal ideation). Your last four paragraphs especially hit hard.

After one of my best periods of recovery in early to mid 2023, I crashed into one of the worst depressions I had ever experienced. This time there was something "off" about it though, it wasn't like the other ones, because this time I knew it was going to be my last. It finally felt like the right time to kill myself.

It's almost as if the initial triggering event (in my case, the onset of my eating disorder) knocked me down, and then each successive event battered me down further and further into the ground, sapping all my strength from me. People tell me that I still have time to get better, and they're right (I'm 23), but I just don't want to fight anymore.

Do you think you'll ever manage to muster up the will to go through with suicide? I fear missing my chance...

I think you being 23 is a big advantage. You definitely still have the time to just take time for a while.

Obviously I understand how you feel, but you should also know that it's okay to not want to fight for a while. And sometimes that desire to fight does return eventually. When you've taken time to do self care, let some of your wounds heal, gotten some help, etc. It has returned for me in the past. I hope it returns for you this time.

 

[KafkaF]

I feel like the same person who puts the same stamp, just not knowing anything different. But still... It looks like you live from one romantic relationship to another. It seems to me that there is little chance that people will be happy together if they are not happy alone. Maybe you are somehow not building relationships correctly or something like that. I don't really understand this, it just seemed strange and familiar to me how you connect relationships and periods, although this may be the opposite consequence of "it became good, I found a partner." You didn't waste your last chance, you know, you've already passed it at least three times. All the best to you...

No offense, but please don't give me that crap about "happy together if you're not happy alone."

Firstly, because that's claptrap folk wisdom with no basis in reality. The same kind of thing as "someone else can't love you until you love yourself" which ignores the fact that people love others who don't love themselves all the time. Secondly, the reason why these relationships failed had absolutely nothing to do with any of that.

And my mental health issues are much more complicated than that. I do place great importance on relationships and, you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. They are one of the things that can make my life a little happier. But my mental health issues are also heavily influenced by childhood abuse, anxiety problems that made college and career extremely difficult for me, etc. If anything, the relationships are a rare pinprick of happiness in an otherwise bleak world.

You are talking about something you don't understand.

So, no offense, I understand you were trying to be helpful but I found this reply offensive and not particularly helpful.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I think you being 23 is a big advantage. You definitely still have the time to just take time for a while.

Obviously I understand how you feel, but you should also know that it's okay to not want to fight for a while. And sometimes that desire to fight does return eventually. When you've taken time to do self care, let some of your wounds heal, gotten some help, etc. It has returned for me in the past. I hope it returns for you this time.

Thanks, I think it's too late for me though.

I've seen what life has to offer when I'm doing well and I've decided that it's not worth it. I see nonexistence as the best possible outcome for me because it's zero-cost, whereas staying alive will always have a cost, especially now that I've relapsed back into my eating disorder and would have to deal with that all over again, and I'm unwilling to expend the vast amounts of energy required to do that. Also, my depression is largely internally-motivated and sustained now, so there's no issue I could solve in my life to make it go away. I can think of some things that would definitely make my life more bearable, like getting a boyfriend, but regression to the mean would be at play and I'd just end up right back here (and in that scenario, things might be even worse because then I'd have to shoulder the guilt of dragging someone along with me through this mess).

I've basically just decided to cut my losses now. And I think a good sign that this is the right path for me is that I am no longer nostalgic for any period of my life, even the happier ones. Because even then, I would have to exist, and I just don't want to have to carry that daily burden anymore.

 

[KafkaF]

Thanks, I think it's too late for me though.

I've seen what life has to offer when I'm doing well and I've decided that it's not worth it. I see nonexistence as the best possible outcome for me because it's zero-cost, whereas staying alive will always have a cost, especially now that I've relapsed back into my eating disorder and would have to deal with that all over again, and I'm unwilling to expend the vast amounts of energy required to do that. Also, my depression is largely internally-motivated and sustained now, so there's no issue I could solve in my life to make it go away. I can think of some things that would definitely make my life more bearable, like getting a boyfriend, but regression to the mean would be at play and I'd just end up right back here (and in that scenario, things might be even worse because then I'd have to shoulder the guilt of dragging someone along with me through this mess).

I've basically just decided to cut my losses now. And I think a good sign that this is the right path for me is that I am no longer nostalgic for any period of my life, even the happier ones. Because even then, I would have to exist, and I just don't want to have to carry that daily burden anymore.

I'm sorry.

Thanks, I think it's too late for me though.

I've seen what life has to offer when I'm doing well and I've decided that it's not worth it. I see nonexistence as the best possible outcome for me because it's zero-cost, whereas staying alive will always have a cost, especially now that I've relapsed back into my eating disorder and would have to deal with that all over again, and I'm unwilling to expend the vast amounts of energy required to do that. Also, my depression is largely internally-motivated and sustained now, so there's no issue I could solve in my life to make it go away. I can think of some things that would definitely make my life more bearable, like getting a boyfriend, but regression to the mean would be at play and I'd just end up right back here (and in that scenario, things might be even worse because then I'd have to shoulder the guilt of dragging someone along with me through this mess).

I've basically just decided to cut my losses now. And I think a good sign that this is the right path for me is that I am no longer nostalgic for any period of my life, even the happier ones. Because even then, I would have to exist, and I just don't want to have to carry that daily burden anymore.

I know it's not very in keeping with this forum. But I still hope things work out for you somehow.

I understand what you mean when you talk about expending the energy, but I do hope you at least know that (although there are never any assurances) just because you've gone through a cycle before doesn't mean you'll continue to. Things like eating disorders are also very treatable, usually.

And depression can and does get better too. Again, not always. But even severe depression can get better. And if anything it being "self-sustaining" rather than necessarily caused by outside factors may be a good sign. In that it may be more medicinally treatable, whereas outside factors are sometimes less so.

I'd say non-existence is not zero cost either. The cost is everything the future would've otherwise held. You don't know what that cost is. But it's not zero cost. The cost is also everything you are and have. Every memory you hold and everything you could've done. The cost is yourself and everything you are. I'm not saying that that cost can never be worth it for anyone, but I wouldn't devalue it either. It might be more comfortable I think if we're going to look at the reality of our suffering and our situation, we have to be willing to confront that reality too.

In order to make a rational decision about this I think we have to see the reality of the cost too.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I'm sorry.

I know it's not very in keeping with this forum. But I still hope things work out for you somehow.

On that note, I'm not sure if you want to hear it, but I will say that I do see some hope for you too based on what you've said here and elsewhere. You seem to be able to imagine a life that would be worth living, which I think gives you better chances when it comes to recovering.

I understand what you mean when you talk about expending the energy, but I do hope you at least know that (although there are never any assurances) just because you've gone through a cycle before doesn't mean you'll continue to. Things like eating disorders are also very treatable, usually.

I've tried recovering from my eating disorder about four times now. The first two were half-assed at best and short-lived, but for the last two I really made an effort and actually got very far in the process. But every time, I relapsed due to (among other things) my lack of will to live. It's impossible to justify putting in the time and energy to make yourself healthy when you don't want to live at all. I don't want a healthy life, I want no life.

And depression can and does get better too. Again, not always. But even severe depression can get better. And if anything it being "self-sustaining" rather than necessarily caused by outside factors may be a good sign. In that it may be more medicinally treatable, whereas outside factors are sometimes less so.

The thing is, I'm not a doomer who denies that getting better is possible. In fact, one of the reasons why I'm so hellbent on CTBing in the near-term is that I know that if I wait much longer, I'm eventually going to come out of this depressive episode. And then I'm going to suffer more, but I won't be able to do anything about it (contrary to what some "pro-lifers" think, we can't just CTB at any random moment). At least right now I have an exit ramp (though admittedly, ever since my attempt I've felt myself losing momentum; I guess an experience like that is kind of stressful lol, makes you want some downtime where you don't have to think about suicide anymore....).

I'd say non-existence is not zero cost either. The cost is everything the future would've otherwise held. You don't know what that cost is. But it's not zero cost. The cost is also everything you are and have. Every memory you hold and everything you could've done. The cost is yourself and everything you are. I'm not saying that that cost can never be worth it for anyone, but I wouldn't devalue it either. It might be more comfortable I think if we're going to look at the reality of our suffering and our situation, we have to be willing to confront that reality too.

In order to make a rational decision about this I think we have to see the reality of the cost too.

I've never understood this argument to be honest. If I'm dead, then any hypothetical futures have been eradicated. It's impossible for me to regret anything because I don't exist. No costs can be accrued to a nonentity. I can maybe see how it could be a cost to other people, but not to myself.

 

[KafkaF]

On that note, I'm not sure if you want to hear it, but I will say that I do see some hope for you too based on what you've said here and elsewhere. You seem to be able to imagine a life that would be worth living, which I think gives you better chances when it comes to recovering.

I don't mind saying that at all. I don't think I see it quite in the same way, but thank you nonetheless.

I've tried recovering from my eating disorder about four times now. The first two were half-assed at best and short-lived, but for the last two I really made an effort and actually got very far in the process. But every time, I relapsed due to (among other things) my lack of will to live. It's impossible to justify putting in the time and energy to make yourself healthy when you don't want to live at all. I don't want a healthy life, I want no life.

Maybe that just means you needed other things to help too though.

The thing is, I'm not a doomer who denies that getting better is possible. In fact, one of the reasons why I'm so hellbent on CTBing in the near-term is that I know that if I wait much longer, I'm eventually going to come out of this depressive episode. And then I'm going to suffer more, but I won't be able to do anything about it (contrary to what some "pro-lifers" think, we can't just CTB at any random moment). At least right now I have an exit ramp (though admittedly, ever since my attempt I've felt myself losing momentum; I guess an experience like that is kind of stressful lol, makes you want some downtime where you don't have to think about suicide anymore....).

Maybe you're not gonna want to hear this, which is fair. But maybe if you need a depressive episode to get to CTB, you're not as sure it's a good choice as you feel it is right now... Idk, seems to me that CTB should be a rational choice taken with as clear a mind as possible and never rushed into.

I've never understood this argument to be honest. If I'm dead, then any hypothetical futures have been eradicated. It's impossible for me to regret anything because I don't exist. No costs can be accrued to a nonentity. I can maybe see how it could be a cost to other people, but not to myself.

Because you exist now. It's true, you can't regret it. But cost and regret are not the same thing. Because you also won't experience that happiness you could. So it's still a cost because right now you can still choose one way or the other. A cost when talking about the future is always prospective. So I'm not talking about regret. Obviously you can't regret when you're gone. I'm talking about experiencing the positive stuff for its own sake. That's the cost. Not to mention, you exist now. So things like your identity and your memories you would still be giving up.

I'm not here to tell you what you should and shouldn't do. I believe in people freely choosing. But what I will say is that I hope you've actually thought this through rationally and you're not just acting out of what you're feeling right now in the present. I believe that CTB is a valid option, but I do think it should always be done thoughtfully and as rationally as possible while considering fully what is being sacrificed.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Maybe you're not gonna want to hear this, which is fair. But maybe if you need a depressive episode to get to CTB, you're not as sure it's a good choice as you feel it is right now... Idk, seems to me that CTB should be a rational choice taken with as clear a mind as possible and never rushed into.

I'm not here to tell you what you should and shouldn't do. I believe in people freely choosing. But what I will say is that I hope you've actually thought this through rationally and you're not just acting out of what you're feeling right now in the present. I believe that CTB is a valid option, but I do think it should always be done thoughtfully and as rationally as possible while considering fully what is being sacrificed.

I may not have explained myself very clearly, my bad.

Over the past six months, I've actually dedicated a lot of time to thinking about CTB rationally, including seeking out opposing viewpoints and arguing against them in their strongest form (so not just boilerplate stuff like "it gets better"). When I first started investigating this question, I was constantly playing devil's advocate in my head and rebutting my own arguments in favour of CTB, just to see if I could poke holes in my logic. I only started seriously planning my suicide when I concluded that I had dealt with most, if not all, arguments, and found them to be unconvincing. So when I talk about "rushing" to CTB, I don't mean it in an impulsive way, but in an opportunistic way. As in, "I've done the calculations and know that this is what I want, but I'm also aware that SI is strong so I will only have a small window of time where I will actually be able to act on that calculation." If I didn't have to factor in SI, then I wouldn't be worrying about this; I'd just pick a date and do it (or more accurately, I would've already done it by now).

Because you exist now. It's true, you can't regret it. But cost and regret are not the same thing. Because you also won't experience that happiness you could. So it's still a cost because right now you can still choose one way or the other. A cost when talking about the future is always prospective. So I'm not talking about regret. Obviously you can't regret when you're gone. I'm talking about experiencing the positive stuff for its own sake. That's the cost. Not to mention, you exist now. So things like your identity and your memories you would still be giving up.

I don't really care about experiencing future happiness, so I don't see that as a cost, especially when you consider that in order to get there, I'm going to have to experience more suffering. I'll quote a reddit post I once saw, and say "I've had good times, I've had bad times. I don't need any more new experiences, happy or sad." I also don't feel that I have any attachment to my identity or memories.

EDIT: Here's a good article about the "deprivation argument." The relevant passage:

It's true that suicide precludes future happiness; however now that you are dead, you are no longer an entity that desires and needs happiness, and therefore you are no longer capable of regretting any choice that you have made that results in failing to obtain happiness. The happiness doesn't exist, but the absence of the happiness does not constitute a deficiency in happiness, because the body that once housed your mind is now a human-shaped clump of rapidly decaying organic matter. It doesn't need or desire happiness, and the mind that once did need and desire happiness is no longer extant. Therefore, one would be committing a category error to say that you are paying an opportunity cost for your choice, when you (as in your mind) no longer exists and therefore cannot perceive any value discrepancy between the two parallel worlds in which a) you chose to commit suicide, and b) you chose to continue living, and went on to experience great joys. Can one say that a chair is suffering a deprivation of joy? Nobody would claim this, because we all understand that a chair is an inanimate object that has no desire or need for experiences of happiness.

 

[KafkaF]

I may not have explained myself very clearly, my bad.

Over the past six months, I've actually dedicated a lot of time to thinking about CTB rationally, including seeking out opposing viewpoints and arguing against them in their strongest form (so not just boilerplate stuff like "it gets better"). When I first started investigating this question, I was constantly playing devil's advocate in my head and rebutting my own arguments in favour of CTB, just to see if I could poke holes in my logic. I only started seriously planning my suicide when I concluded that I had dealt with most, if not all, arguments, and found them to be unconvincing. So when I talk about "rushing" to CTB, I don't mean it in an impulsive way, but in an opportunistic way. As in, "I've done the calculations and know that this is what I want, but I'm also aware that SI is strong so I will only have a small window of time where I will actually be able to act on that calculation." If I didn't have to factor in SI, then I wouldn't be worrying about this; I'd just pick a date and do it (or more accurately, I would've already done it by now).


I don't really care about experiencing future happiness, so I don't see that as a cost, especially when you consider that in order to get there, I'm going to have to experience more suffering. I'll quote a reddit post I once saw, and say "I've had good times, I've had bad times. I don't need any more new experiences, happy or sad." I also don't feel that I have any attachment to my identity or memories.

EDIT: Here's a good article about the "deprivation argument." The relevant passage:

Like I said, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I really do wonder if having to be opportunistic in that way isn't a good argument to reconsider. Obviously survival instinct is strong, but it seems to me that if you can't do it at a moment of rationality but you specifically need to wait for the worst, it's fair to question how rational the action is.

Again, that's your choice. It's a choice we can only make for ourselves. But I do wonder if you'd say that if you were in that better state you described. If not, I wonder if you're really convinced as much as you want to believe it. We all have our own philosophical inclinations, of course. But I don't really buy the anti-deprivation argument.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Like I said, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I really do wonder if having to be opportunistic in that way isn't a good argument to reconsider. Obviously survival instinct is strong, but it seems to me that if you can't do it at a moment of rationality but you specifically need to wait for the worst, it's fair to question how rational the action is.

Again, that's your choice. It's a choice we can only make for ourselves. But I do wonder if you'd say that if you were in that better state you described. If not, I wonder if you're really convinced as much as you want to believe it. We all have our own philosophical inclinations, of course. But I don't really buy the anti-deprivation argument.

I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to do it in a moment of pure rationality. I think the successful suicides we've seen on here have been from people who have known for a long time that they've wanted to do it, made preparations in anticipation, and then seized an opportunity when it came up. That's up for debate though; I've noticed that this, and the general topic of "readiness", come up fairly frequently on this site. It turns out to be a very thorny question. My personal take is that you need to fight fire with fire, ie. in order to overcome SI, you need an equally powerful force, which I would describe as the "pull to death" or "drive to die." You can still be thinking rationally in such a situation, though. When I made my attempt, for example, I was not in distress at the time, I was mostly just calm and collected, but that drive to die was still there.

I appreciate you pushing back on this though, as I alluded to before, I'm pretty committed to intellectual honesty, so I relish the few opportunities I get to engage with people about this and re-examine my beliefs. I will definitely take what you said into consideration and reflect more on it.

 

[KafkaF]

I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to do it in a moment of pure rationality. I think the successful suicides we've seen on here have been from people who have known for a long time that they've wanted to do it, made preparations in anticipation, and then seized an opportunity when it came up. That's up for debate though; I've noticed that this, and the general topic of "readiness", come up fairly frequently on this site. It turns out to be a very thorny question. My personal take is that you need to fight fire with fire, ie. in order to overcome SI, you need an equally powerful force, which I would describe as the "pull to death" or "drive to die." You can still be thinking rationally in such a situation, though. When I made my attempt, for example, I was not in distress at the time, I was mostly just calm and collected, but that drive to die was still there.

I appreciate you pushing back on this though, as I alluded to before, I'm pretty committed to intellectual honesty, so I relish the few opportunities I get to engage with people about this and re-examine my beliefs. I will definitely take what you said into consideration and reflect more on it.

I would argue that just because it's probably a more common thing for people to succeed when in an emotional state, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best state to make the decision in. That's only true if you determine that the only thing that matters for determining the "best state to make the decision in" is frequency of actually ending it. But what we're discussing here is the frequency of making the decision when it is the best decision to make. Those are two different things.

In order for it to meet the criteria we were talking about such a moment would have to increase the frequency of success at ending things while it being the best decision. Not just the frequency at having ended things, period. I'd also add that just being calm does not necessarily mean being unemotional. People who are in shock, for example, can be quite calm and even numb. But that's a result of extreme emotion, not of absence of it.

I'm sure it's never easy, but it seems to me that if you're justified enough not even on a purely rational mind could you be disuaded.

Like I said, I respect your decision whatever it is. But I think it's always important to examine things carefully and honestly. I think we're alike in that way. And as odd as it is, I do care. I want you to make the right decision, whatever that decision is.

Also never a bad idea to look up refutations to stuff like the article you sent or similar arguments, btw. In science it is, after all, the most important thing to try to disprove your own hypothesis. And always to remember not only your own bias (which we all have according to our preconceptions) but the bias of the writer too, and look at it with a critical eye accordingly. That is the best way to find truth.

Regardless of anything, I genuinely wish you well. Whatever that well may be.

Even if I end up leaving this forum, which I may have to do for my mental health if I can manage it (as I explained in a different post), I also want you to remember that this random stranger did give a shit. If that means anything at all.

Edit: Oh, and one more thing, I'd also point out about the paragraph you cited that a chair never had the capacity to experience joy in the first place. So I do find the analogy to be quite flawed. It could have never experienced joy in any universe no matter what happened, but as a human you can.

 

[chronos-continuum]

I've been were you are and it is truly terrible but I only had one gf that I saw as my only chance even as a way to embark on life and establish myself so much so tat was really my modus operandi in equal measure to the benefits of the relationship - there is no to ways about it it simply is really really hard at an early age to go through these things I think people trivialize and downplay how difficult these relationship breakups are especially when you are young. there is every chance you might ctb or might not but what I would say is that where you might be at rock bottom instead of just relying on will rely on time so that your efforts to get better might be fewer and further apart to try and ration the micro amount of energy and strength you have and rely more upon the duration between efforts to do some of the heavy lifting for you. just don't do what i did and take too much time so that if you do get some energy amidst of pacing yourself push a little harder. I am not trying to say your wish to ctb isn't valid as an older person who is actively suicidal myself I would just say take stock of any and all resources you have or have access to give it a red hot go in a measured and paced way but an active one and just see - time is on your side if you can muddle through a bit more until you have some leeway with yourself. I say all of this knowing that it still is an active choice to muddle rather than ctb and despite my own struggle and muddling through didn't result in some remission later in life of my depression the thing that did come clear for me is that though it is absolutely horrible to be young and have such difficulties it is a better wager to go all in on any positive, active opportunity you can take anything with a measured degree of risk this would have made a difference in my own youth the tragedy of youth being we are always confused and constantly trying to work out what wit all means in our youth we don't even see the blindspots we are put upon so much by family, society our unmet needs etc.. Life is so so very hard you have absolutely been through the wringer and so it is natural to think and feel how you are - I really wouldn't want to be young again despite most people my age harping on towards that end.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Regardless of anything, I genuinely wish you well. Whatever that well may be.

Even if I end up leaving this forum, which I may have to do for my mental health if I can manage it (as I explained in a different post), I also want you to remember that this random stranger did give a shit. If that means anything at all.

I'm going to bed now so will have to reply to everything else tomorrow, but thank you for this. I believe you're being sincere, and it does make me feel a little better. I've been really down because the one person IRL who showed me an ounce of attention hasn't said a word in a while, and I just have this horrible, clawing feeling inside me of neediness, like I just need to see him. I want to share a space with him again, I want him to look in my eyes and see my pain, I want him to care, but he doesn't.

I'd be sorry to see you go if you left the forum, but I understand why you might need to (I'm a relatively new user but I very quickly became almost addicted, checking the site constantly -- not good for me). Can you point me to the post where you discussed it though?

 

[KafkaF]

I'm going to bed now so will have to reply to everything else tomorrow, but thank you for this. I believe you're being sincere, and it does make me feel a little better. I've been really down because the one person IRL who showed me an ounce of attention hasn't said a word in a while, and I just have this horrible, clawing feeling inside me of neediness, like I just need to see him. I want to share a space with him again, I want him to look in my eyes and see my pain, I want him to care, but he doesn't.

I'd be sorry to see you go if you left the forum, but I understand why you might need to (I'm a relatively new user but I very quickly became almost addicted, checking the site constantly -- not good for me). Can you point me to the post where you discussed it though?

Goodnight. And I think the most important thing is just thinking about it.

Well, I honestly can't say if this other person cares or not. I don't know them and I won't lie to you and pretend to know something I can't. But I do care. I genuinely do. For what that's worth.

Have you asked yourself why you feel this neediness? Because if it's because you want to feel seen, I do see you. And if it's because you somehow don't feel enough or don't feel worth it or whatever because of it (and I've definitely been there myself), from everything I can tell from our interactions I think you are definitely worth something. You seem like a smart, honest, thoughtful, empathetic person. And that's more than I can say for most people, tbh. If they're not paying attention to you maybe it's more about them than it is about you. I don't know. I can only speculate based on my perception.

I'm not sure where it is. But to briefly explain it: I came here looking for practical advice. But I stuck around after that and started checking this place too much. And I honestly don't want to get to know anyone here too well. Because I don't think I could handle it if I become close friends with someone here and they died. And considering the nature of this forum, that seems likely. I also care too damn much about what happens to people, especially people I like. And I hate seeing people suffer. And I'm starting to like some people here. And that makes this forum not great for my mental health. I'm a bit conflicted though because I think this place is quite open-minded and it doesn't have the stupid taboos and platitudes that so many other places have, so I actually quite like that. And, tbh, I don't have many other places to talk about my problems where I'll actually get a response. So if I leave it'll be hard for me cuz part of me doesn't want to (and I'm getting a little too addicted), but I also don't know if I'm cut out to be here. So maybe it's best for me to leave.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I would argue that just because it's probably a more common thing for people to succeed when in an emotional state, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best state to make the decision in. That's only true if you determine that the only thing that matters for determining the "best state to make the decision in" is frequency of actually ending it. But what we're discussing here is the frequency of making the decision when it is the best decision to make. Those are two different things. In order for it to meet the criteria we were talking about such a moment would have to increase the frequency of success at ending things while it being the best decision. Not just the frequency at having ended things, period.

To me this implies that an emotional state is somehow a "false" state that doesn't reflect your true desires or best interests, which I think is not always the case. If you've done the calculation already, then I honestly don't think it matters what emotional state you're in when you decide to CTB. I think it'd be practically impossible to not be in some kind of emotional state before you make an attempt, no matter how much you believe that that action is justified or how carefully you've thought about it. I might be misunderstanding what you said though so feel free to clarify if I got something wrong.

I'd also add that just being calm does not necessarily mean being unemotional. People who are in shock, for example, can be quite calm and even numb. But that's a result of extreme emotion, not of absence of it.

Point taken, I in particular am not an anxious person and I don't tend to show external signs of stress, so you're right that being in a state of calmness doesn't necessarily mean much.

I'm sure it's never easy, but it seems to me that if you're justified enough not even on a purely rational mind could you be disuaded.

Like I said, I respect your decision whatever it is. But I think it's always important to examine things carefully and honestly. I think we're alike in that way. And as odd as it is, I do care. I want you to make the right decision, whatever that decision is.

Also never a bad idea to look up refutations to stuff like the article you sent or similar arguments, btw. In science it is, after all, the most important thing to try to disprove your own hypothesis. And always to remember not only your own bias (which we all have according to our preconceptions) but the bias of the writer too, and look at it with a critical eye accordingly. That is the best way to find truth.

Regardless of anything, I genuinely wish you well. Whatever that well may be.

Even if I end up leaving this forum, which I may have to do for my mental health if I can manage it (as I explained in a different post), I also want you to remember that this random stranger did give a shit. If that means anything at all.

Edit: Oh, and one more thing, I'd also point out about the paragraph you cited that a chair never had the capacity to experience joy in the first place. So I do find the analogy to be quite flawed. It could have never experienced joy in any universe no matter what happened, but as a human you can.

I agree about looking up refutations. I actually did search up other reactions to one of schopenhaueronmars's other articles and found a discussion on reddit. Almost all the comments were in disagreement lol. I didn't change my views but it did help me identify certain flaws with the writer's arguments, and maybe make my own position a little softer/more nuanced.

Goodnight. And I think the most important thing is just thinking about it.

Well, I honestly can't say if this other person cares or not. I don't know them and I won't lie to you and pretend to know something I can't. But I do care. I genuinely do. For what that's worth.

Have you asked yourself why you feel this neediness? Because if it's because you want to feel seen, I do see you. And if it's because you somehow don't feel enough or don't feel worth it or whatever because of it (and I've definitely been there myself), from everything I can tell from our interactions I think you are definitely worth something. You seem like a smart, honest, thoughtful, empathetic person. And that's more than I can say for most people, tbh. If they're not paying attention to you maybe it's more about them than it is about you. I don't know. I can only speculate based on my perception.

I suppose that was a bit hyperbolic to say that he "doesn't care." I think he probably does, at least on some level. It might be more accurate to say that I'm not on his priority list and he can't spare the energy needed to deal with me. I don't really know tbh, he left me on read and hasn't said anything since. I've been trying to stop myself from speculating and going down the rabbit hole of making up reasons to explain it. Instead I've just been telling myself: appreciate it for what it was, and don't be bitter for what it wasn't/couldn't be.

I think I feel that neediness because I'm just desperate lol. I've been quite isolated for most of my life but especially so over the past two years, and I deal with touch starvation in particular. I've never had a boyfriend, but have always wanted one, and part of what makes this so complicated is that he's a single man in my age range so of course my desperate heart sees potential in him as someone who could give me that love and touch. The thing is, he can't be the one to give me that, and that was very clear from the start, but I don't know how to make my heart stop wanting it nonetheless. So yes, part of the neediness is what you said, about wanting to feel seen and have my pain acknowledged, but part of it is because I'm desperate for so much more than that.

I really appreciate you saying that about me, by the way, those are the exact qualities I try to embody. It got me all teary-eyed. I see much of the same in you.

I'm not sure where it is. But to briefly explain it: I came here looking for practical advice. But I stuck around after that and started checking this place too much. And I honestly don't want to get to know anyone here too well. Because I don't think I could handle it if I become close friends with someone here and they died. And considering the nature of this forum, that seems likely. I also care too damn much about what happens to people, especially people I like. And I hate seeing people suffer. And I'm starting to like some people here. And that makes this forum not great for my mental health. I'm a bit conflicted though because I think this place is quite open-minded and it doesn't have the stupid taboos and platitudes that so many other places have, so I actually quite like that. And, tbh, I don't have many other places to talk about my problems where I'll actually get a response. So if I leave it'll be hard for me cuz part of me doesn't want to (and I'm getting a little too addicted), but I also don't know if I'm cut out to be here. So maybe it's best for me to leave.

I understand the dilemma, I often get emotional reading others' stories, and surrounding myself with the suffering of this many people (and there are so many of us) can get, well, depressing. It makes me want to CTB even more sometimes because it just further convinces me that existence is not worth it. I'm not so worried about getting attached to people though because if they CTB'd and ended their suffering, I would be glad for them.

It's frustrating that we're pushed onto this site to talk about our problems because there aren't any places left to do that, in real life or online. I feel like I could moderate my usage of the site more if I was able to speak openly in public, but last time I was even semi-transparent it ended in the police knocking on my door lol. So when this is the only resource available to us, it makes sense that it's going to act as a lifeline (ironically). It'll be your decision to make whether you stay or not, but as you wished me earlier, I hope you make the decision that's right for you, whatever that is.

 

[KafkaF]

To me this implies that an emotional state is somehow a "false" state that doesn't reflect your true desires or best interests, which I think is not always the case. If you've done the calculation already, then I honestly don't think it matters what emotional state you're in when you decide to CTB. I think it'd be practically impossible to not be in some kind of emotional state before you make an attempt, no matter how much you believe that that action is justified or how carefully you've thought about it. I might be misunderstanding what you said though so feel free to clarify if I got something wrong.

I'd say there's a substantive difference between using that emotional state to motivate you vs. being in an emotional state because of what you're about to do. I think the second may be inevitable, but I think the first is very undesireable. Not because it's not a "true" state. But because in an emotional state like that you are generally not as capable of actually examining what is truly in your best interest to do.

I mean, we know this. We know that people's emotional states can greatly impact their decision-making and how rational it is. People often, for example, act out in anger and understand later that this was a bad idea. But in that moment they were not able to clearly consider why their actions were not in their best interests.

Considering that this would be the most important decision you ever make, I know I don't want to make it without knowing that I'm making the decision with a rational mind and for rational reasons. And if I can't do it because when I come up to that threshold and I confront it and I realize that the bad still isn't worth enough to lose it all, I think clearly I'm not ready yet. Because that is also the moment when you are most viscerally confronted with what it is that you are actually giving up. And if I can't do it rationally then it seems to me that I don't yet have enough of a valid justification to convince me that I really should be gone. Since emotions can obscure truth otherwise.

I've been at worse moments before than I am right now, especially in October and November. But one of the reasons I've stopped myself from CTBing in those moments is because I didn't want to make the wrong decision. And I knew that those moments were the worst possible moments to make it. I may still do it, but I don't want to do it motivated by emotions that do not represent how most of my life will be.

I'd also add that whenever you put a timer on something like this, you are inherently coercing yourself into it to some extent. That's never wise, imo. At least not if it's a self-imposed timer.

I agree about looking up refutations. I actually did search up other reactions to one of schopenhaueronmars's other articles and found a discussion on reddit. Almost all the comments were in disagreement lol. I didn't change my views but it did help me identify certain flaws with the writer's arguments, and maybe make my own position a little softer/more nuanced.

I see a lot of problems with it though. Like aside from the fact that a chair never has the ability to think at all in any universe, and so it's a bad example, there's also the fact that it only considers one side of the issue. It's a biased examination. It presents a situation in which you have (broadly) two options but only examines the effects from the perspective of one option because it better suits the author's narrative. If you die you cannot feel regret, it's true. But that is only defining the choice in terms of an absence of regret in that scenario. But equally if you live you can feel happy and thankful that you lived, or experience happy things. Which have value to you in that moment. Which would be defining it in terms of the positive experience of the other choice. There is no inherent reason to look at it from one perspective over another. And, in fact, you can't look at an issue which is a choice between two outcomes and only look at it from the perspective of one outcome. That's a biased selection.

You know, let's go for a better metaphor. Let's say someone's on a game show. In this game show they have to pick one of two doors. Behind one is something that would make them happy. Let's just say for the sake of argument it's 10 million dollars. Money doesn't necessarily make happy, don't get me wrong, but I imagine it would improve most people's lives so we'll just use it as an example. Behind the other door is nothing. After they pick, if they pick the bad door, their memories of the gameshow get erased.

If they pick the wrong door their life may not be terrible. They'll just continue living the life they always had. And most importantly for this example, they won't regret picking the wrong door cuz they won't remember it. There is no regret here, which is good.

If they pick the right door though they get 10 million dollars. They wanted that money and they spend it on things that make them happy. Living a life of fun. Doing fun things with their family. Seeing places they always wanted to see. Stuff like that. In this case it's not just that they have no regret. They have happiness. They are much happier than they were after choosing the bad door, even though if choosing the bad door they wouldn't have known that. But that doesn't matter, they're still experiencing that happiness.

The person's chair metaphor simply doesn't hold. Because it only looks at one half of the choice. Decides that you can't feel regret after making it and that's enough. But it fails to considering that if you make the other choice you can experience a bunch of happiness, which would be better than just not feeling regret. That's not guaranteed, but that is one of the possibilities in that case and not a possibility with death.

Basically, the most desireable thing is to end up with the highest possibly desireable situation. No suffering is preferable to suffering, but happiness is preferable to just no suffering.

There's also the fact that the choice of death cannot be changed if it's a bad choice, but the choice of life can always be changed later if it turns out to have been a bad one. In that way I'd say choosing life is something you need to be less certain of than choosing death. Because choosing life can be undone if it's bad, choosing death cannot.

I suppose that was a bit hyperbolic to say that he "doesn't care." I think he probably does, at least on some level. It might be more accurate to say that I'm not on his priority list and he can't spare the energy needed to deal with me. I don't really know tbh, he left me on read and hasn't said anything since. I've been trying to stop myself from speculating and going down the rabbit hole of making up reasons to explain it. Instead I've just been telling myself: appreciate it for what it was, and don't be bitter for what it wasn't/couldn't be.

Wouldn't you say that's making a judgement before things have played out though? You're having a very strong reaction to something but you don't know how it's going to play out yet. And without knowing why they're doing what they're doing, just speculating.

I think I feel that neediness because I'm just desperate lol. I've been quite isolated for most of my life but especially so over the past two years, and I deal with touch starvation in particular. I've never had a boyfriend, but have always wanted one, and part of what makes this so complicated is that he's a single man in my age range so of course my desperate heart sees potential in him as someone who could give me that love and touch. The thing is, he can't be the one to give me that, and that was very clear from the start, but I don't know how to make my heart stop wanting it nonetheless. So yes, part of the neediness is what you said, about wanting to feel seen and have my pain acknowledged, but part of it is because I'm desperate for so much more than that.

I really appreciate you saying that about me, by the way, those are the exact qualities I try to embody. It got me all teary-eyed. I see much of the same in you.

I understand wanting a significant other. I do too. I also find that very important. And I've also been isolated a lot myself due to my social anxiety. But I've also found girlfriends before. And if I can find a girlfriend when I sometimes struggle to leave my house and have no friends, I have no doubt that you can find a boyfriend. It doesn't have to be this one, you know. Just because he's there and in your age range. There WILL be other guys. Very likely. And considering how quickly I've grown to like you, I see no reason why another guy couldn't too. Maybe you should try some new things to find one? Like what have you tried yet?

I understand the dilemma, I often get emotional reading others' stories, and surrounding myself with the suffering of this many people (and there are so many of us) can get, well, depressing. It makes me want to CTB even more sometimes because it just further convinces me that existence is not worth it. I'm not so worried about getting attached to people though because if they CTB'd and ended their suffering, I would be glad for them.

It's frustrating that we're pushed onto this site to talk about our problems because there aren't any places left to do that, in real life or online. I feel like I could moderate my usage of the site more if I was able to speak openly in public, but last time I was even semi-transparent it ended in the police knocking on my door lol. So when this is the only resource available to us, it makes sense that it's going to act as a lifeline (ironically). It'll be your decision to make whether you stay or not, but as you wished me earlier, I hope you make the decision that's right for you, whatever that is.

Yeah, I agree. But one thing that it helps me to remember is that a lot of the people on here are hurting too. We might be tempted to buy into their view of life if they have a nihilistic one, but it needs to be remembered that their view of life is at least as biased as our own. And especially when both are biased in the same direction, you get an even more extreme bias than before. It's amplification.

I think existence in general is worth it though. As far as our specific lives go, I think it can be. We can't necessarily be sure because it's impossible to know what things will our lives will hold. Whether we'll get more good or bad out of the box or when. And people can only decide that for themselves. But I would remind you that tomorrow the birds will chirp when you wake up. If you step outside in your yard or a park with your bare feet, the grass will caress your toes. If it's sunny where you are the sun will warm your skin. And if you're getting hot, a cold drink of water will feel like little sips of heaven. There is so much incredible art out there as well. TV-shows and stories with emotion and power; Of people going through the darkest times and finding their strength. Of love. All of the knowledge of science is out there. You can see the stars on the other side of the universe. You can learn how the world works or how people think. Why the rainbows exist and defract the light. There are beautiful buildings of ancient construction, or with giant windows sparkling like crystal. There are people out there who may one day be happy that you're around.

Life has plenty of bad, I don't deny that nor would I ever. But it can never be forgotten that good stuff is out there. And death means giving that up too. And that needs to be considered for any choice. Both the bad and the good that's out there. Denying the good that exists is denying the truth. If you want to make a good decision, you need to take into account all the facts.

Yeah, it sucks. It's crazy to me that so many people still don't understand that constantly censoring or trying to force suicidal people into doing things isn't helpful. It just drives us away to places that can actually fulfill our needs and where we can talk about everything we need to talk about. Or it makes us suffer silently and that's bad too. Society is so backwards when it comes to suicide. Although I have actually talked to IRL people about it before and haven't been sectioned or anything. So it doesn't always happen.

Maybe both of us should get out of here, idk.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

First of all a disclaimer: my energy has really been running low lately (something you can relate to I'm sure) and more importantly, I've felt like my mind has been floating in a void where I can't string thoughts together coherently and everything is disconnected in my brain, like I can't grasp onto anything or concentrate on anything for long enough to elaborate on it (which is very uncharacteristic of me, I'm usually quite focused). So apologies if this is all over the place.

I'd say there's a substantive difference between using that emotional state to motivate you vs. being in an emotional state because of what you're about to do. I think the second may be inevitable, but I think the first is very undesireable. Not because it's not a "true" state. But because in an emotional state like that you are generally not as capable of actually examining what is truly in your best interest to do.

I mean, we know this. We know that people's emotional states can greatly impact their decision-making and how rational it is. People often, for example, act out in anger and understand later that this was a bad idea. But in that moment they were not able to clearly consider why their actions were not in their best interests.

I don't know, this all sounds very arbitrary and subjective to me. What does it mean for something to be in your "best interest"? If I define my "best interest" as whatever minimizes my suffering, then CTB is clearly the most rational thing to do, as it ends all current suffering and prevents all future suffering. CTB also can't really be compared to other decisions because it's the only decision you will ever make that you don't have to live with, so there'd be no "understanding later that this was a bad idea." So I'm not sure where the cost is here, even assuming it wasn't in your "best interest." I don't think it ultimately matters whether the decision to CTB was "the best" choice for me or not, because I'll be dead.

Considering that this would be the most important decision you ever make, I know I don't want to make it without knowing that I'm making the decision with a rational mind and for rational reasons. And if I can't do it because when I come up to that threshold and I confront it and I realize that the bad still isn't worth enough to lose it all, I think clearly I'm not ready yet. Because that is also the moment when you are most viscerally confronted with what it is that you are actually giving up. And if I can't do it rationally then it seems to me that I don't yet have enough of a valid justification to convince me that I really should be gone. Since emotions can obscure truth otherwise.

Who's to say that you "realizing" that you'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't just your biological organism trying to keep itself alive, fighting back against its impending annihilation?

This is kind of what I've been trying to say, that the line between what's rational and what's not is blurry and it's not so easy to sort a decision into one bucket or another.

Not everyone has to do this, but I've personally made a choice that I want my CTB to be rational, whatever that means to me, and I think I've done that, so there's no need to rehash that decision when the moment itself comes. I'd rather make the rational decision beforehand, and then just be in my body, in the moment, when I'm contemplating the jump. I would prefer feeling "ready" at that moment, but I think we all have our own definition of what being "ready" means. Yours is perfectly fine for yourself, but I'm going to abide by my own.

I've been at worse moments before than I am right now, especially in October and November. But one of the reasons I've stopped myself from CTBing in those moments is because I didn't want to make the wrong decision. And I knew that those moments were the worst possible moments to make it. I may still do it, but I don't want to do it motivated by emotions that do not represent how most of my life will be.

I have also stopped myself from CTBing during those high-distress moments in the past because I didn't feel that I had truly investigated the question of whether to live or die thoroughly enough, and there were still some huge question marks that I had yet to answer. Even relatively recently, I stopped myself because my preparations weren't completed yet and if I was going to do this, I was going to do it right. But now that everything's sorted out, logic and preparations both, I don't see why I would stop myself again were I to fall into a high-distress situation like that again.

I'd also add that whenever you put a timer on something like this, you are inherently coercing yourself into it to some extent. That's never wise, imo. At least not if it's a self-imposed timer.

It's more logistical than anything. With my choice of method, the weather matters, so with the seasons changing, I can feel my chance slipping from my grasp. Also, now that I've quit my job, I'm going to be losing my life insurance, which would've given each of my brothers 33% of my salary, which is pretty significant, especially since they're all struggling financially right now. I would hate to CTB four months from now anyway and not leave them as much money as they could've had.

Need a break now, will reply to rest later.

 

[KafkaF]

First of all a disclaimer: my energy has really been running low lately (something you can relate to I'm sure) and more importantly, I've felt like my mind has been floating in a void where I can't string thoughts together coherently and everything is disconnected in my brain, like I can't grasp onto anything or concentrate on anything for long enough to elaborate on it (which is very uncharacteristic of me, I'm usually quite focused). So apologies if this is all over the place.


I don't know, this all sounds very arbitrary and subjective to me. What does it mean for something to be in your "best interest"? If I define my "best interest" as whatever minimizes my suffering, then CTB is clearly the most rational thing to do, as it ends all current suffering and prevents all future suffering. CTB also can't really be compared to other decisions because it's the only decision you will ever make that you don't have to live with, so there'd be no "understanding later that this was a bad idea." So I'm not sure where the cost is here, even assuming it wasn't in your "best interest." I don't think it ultimately matters whether the decision to CTB was "the best" choice for me or not, because I'll be dead.

That's okay, no worries. =)

What's more arbitrary, looking at whether a book is good only in terms of the absence of plot errors or both the absence of plot errors and the presence of good twists? Would you just as equally like to read a book that just has no plot errors (but nothing particularly good either), or would you prefer to read a book with no plot errors and with good scenes? What's more arbitrary, picking one half of a painting and judging that good or bad, or looking at the entire painting and judging that? I think we'd both agree that judging the entirety is much less arbitrary than judging only a random part of the picture.

If you only look at things in terms of an absence of suffering, you are only looking at the absence of errors or that one half of the painting. You are not looking at the full picture.

What's genuinely arbitrary is looking at one aspect of something and hinging everything on that. What's the least arbitrary is looking at the full picture with everything in it, good or bad. The "looking at life in terms of an absence of suffering" is just a preconception that is common in these rather nihilistic texts. But focusing solely on that is rather arbitrary. And it automatically biases the conversation in the direction of non-existence, but that IS a bias.

Imagine life as an equation. This is taking away part of the equation to come to that conclusion. Let's take the equations 0+1 and 0+2. If you have a +1 and a 0 in an equation and you only look at the 0 (0=0) you will always get 0 as an answer. But if you look at the full equation (0+1) you will get a 1. If you look at the second equation and only at the 0 (0=0) you will get a 0 again. But looking at the full equation (0+2) you'll get a 2. This is basically the same kind of logic. You have a full equation, but you're ignoring something in it to get to a specific answer every time. In order to get to the truth, you need to always look at the full equation.

Pick a random moment. Just one moment. One second. Would you agree that in that second you'd rather have no suffering over suffering? I imagine you do and I agree too. I think this would be basically universally true. But in that one second, would you rather have joy over just no suffering? I think we would also both if we honestly think about it say "yes, we would." Because it's just as universal a thing as a desire not to suffer.

Your "best interest" would align, in this example, with achieving the second outcome I mentioned. Because "best interests" exist in terms of what would be the best state to find yourself in looking across all states. The optimal state.

In general terms best interests are always about increasing the positives and decreasing the negatives. What those negatives and positives are is partially up to the individual. Stuff like "meaning" can also be a positive, for example, even if it doesn't necessarily increase joy (though it often does). Part of it is choice. For this I'd say look into exisentialism if you're not aware. We choose our positives to a degree. So it's a little more complicated than this, but at the most basic level what we're talking about is avoiding suffering and increasing positive feelings like joy.

Again, that's not arbitrary. It's almost definitionally true. What is positive is definitionally desireable, and what is negative is definitionally undesireable.

So I would urge you to look at the full picture. You can take into account the suffering you'd be avoiding, of course. That does make sense. But just putting it in terms of that would be ignoring a huge part of the picture that is important to choosing the best outcome for you.

CTB is indeed a decision you make you don't have to live with. But it's also unique in the opposite sense as well. And I don't mean that in the sense of life being inherently valuable or whatever. I don't necessarily believe that. Life can be something you don't want to have. But what I'm pointing out is that this statement is going off of the same preconception as we talked about earlier It is solely talking about CTB in terms of an absence of suffering, and not looking at it in terms of what positives you won't get. It is once again arbitrarily ignoring half of the picture.

If the logic is projecting into the future that there is no cost because dead you will feel no cost, it's being ignored that you can projecting into the future and come to the conclusion that living you may feel satisfied and happy about their decision to not CTB in the end. In both cases you are doing the same thing. You are projecting yourself into the future to determine how you feel about the cost in that scenario. Again, if you want to stay logically consistent you need to look at the whole picture. Both of them. Otherwise you are ignoring part of the equation, reading only part of the book, judging only part of the painting. And if you do that in this way (only judge half the picture), yes, you can easily get to deciding on CTB.

In fact, by that half picture logic you will ALWAYS get to CTB. Because by that logic literally everyone should CTB because every life, even the happiest, has a non 0 amount of suffering. Even a life where a person just spent their life with everything they wanted, an incredible family, incredible friends, being constantly happy and thankful to be alive at all times but they hurt their toe once, would get to needing to CTB under this logic. Because there was non 0 suffering in their life and in the future there could be more suffering. Therefore being dead would be an absence of suffering for them. Which is a lower amount of suffering than they are currently experiencing or expecting to experience. So they should CTB.

I think we can both see why this logic doesn't work if it means that even the happiest, most fulfilled person in the world can get to CTB off of it.

And it doesn't work because it is only looking at the lack of negative and the lack of regret, and it arbitrarily excludes the presence of the positive and the presence of thankfulness.

That's why in science people don't systematically throw out a specific type of result when they do an experiment. Because excluding part of the picture by throwing out one factor entirely is wrong. "Our plane will fly if we ignore every test involving gravity and only look 0G tests using pure wind resistance" is not great. That plane will not fly because they have not uncovered the truth by ignoring the full picture.

All I'm saying is this: Take into account the WHOLE picture. Or at least as much of it as you can. That is the closest to objective we can be. After all, the definition of bias, which is a type of subjectivity, is literally 'a systemic distortion of a result due to a factor not allowed in its derivation." Or to translate to normal speak: Ignoring something that is part of the picture in a way that biases things towards a certain outcome. And I hope I've already shown why the "only take into account absence of suffering" thing is an example of that.

And it's worth noting that a cost is still a cost, objectively, if you're not aware of it. If someone steals 50 dollars from your wallet and you never notice it, you're still 50 dollars poorer.

As a sidenote to this, you said you've never had a boyfriend. I will say, if I had to pick any experience, having a significant other is one worth having. Even if I end up going for CTB, I'm glad I didn't do it before I had time with my previous girlfriend. I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Who's to say that you "realizing" that you'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't just your biological organism trying to keep itself alive, fighting back against its impending annihilation?

This is kind of what I've been trying to say, that the line between what's rational and what's not is blurry and it's not so easy to sort a decision into one bucket or another.

Not everyone has to do this, but I've personally made a choice that I want my CTB to be rational, whatever that means to me, and I think I've done that, so there's no need to rehash that decision when the moment itself comes. I'd rather make the rational decision beforehand, and then just be in my body, in the moment, when I'm contemplating the jump. I would prefer feeling "ready" at that moment, but I think we all have our own definition of what being "ready" means. Yours is perfectly fine for yourself, but I'm going to abide by my own.

I have also stopped myself from CTBing during those high-distress moments in the past because I didn't feel that I had truly investigated the question of whether to live or die thoroughly enough, and there were still some huge question marks that I had yet to answer. Even relatively recently, I stopped myself because my preparations weren't completed yet and if I was going to do this, I was going to do it right. But now that everything's sorted out, logic and preparations both, I don't see why I would stop myself again were I to fall into a high-distress situation like that again.

It's more logistical than anything. With my choice of method, the weather matters, so with the seasons changing, I can feel my chance slipping from my grasp. Also, now that I've quit my job, I'm going to be losing my life insurance, which would've given each of my brothers 33% of my salary, which is pretty significant, especially since they're all struggling financially right now. I would hate to CTB four months from now anyway and not leave them as much money as they could've had.

Need a break now, will reply to rest later.

Rational is a spectrum to some degree, yes. So why is it less rational? Because the degree of emotion at that time will bias you towards an outcome. An outcome that you would not have been okay enough with to go through with it, by what you yourself say, if you didn't have that emotional mindset.

Also, I forgot to ask about this, but you say you've planned this out. But if I remember you also said you are in a depressive period. A period you said you know you're going to get out of, but you want to end things before then. But did you decide on this all BEFORE you entered the depressive period? Or after the depressive period had already begun? Because that also makes a difference here. You yourself seem to believe you'd think and feel differently if you left the period which you also feel is likely to happen. Isn't that kind of like drinking alcohol, deciding something while on alcohol and then doing it before the alcohol runs out? Because you know it will likely change your actions and beliefs.

We humans always give more attention to what we're experiencing at the time we're experiencing it. That's just how humans work. Psychological experiments demonstrate this. It's one of the reasons why it's so hard to, for example, study long and hard to get a diploma. Because the unpleasantness of the study is much more present at that time you're studying that the eventual feeling of reward for getting the diploma and the better life you live afterwards. Even though the total amount of happiness you may derive from the second is greater than the unpleasantness of studying for a few hours.

If you wait. And you get to that better period. And you can still do it. At least you can feel much more confident about your choice that it is what you really wanted in all circumstances. You know that it's not just because you were feeling bad at a specific time. That way you know even the good is worth sacrificing because you're feeling it and rejecting it anyway.

Not to mention, it seems this thing that's happening with this guy is also affecting how you feel. Are you sure you wouldn't rather sit back and wait for that to pass so you at least have a slightly clearer mind on that?

I understand wanting to do it only if you knew it was right. I think that's a very good mindset and one that I share. That's exactly why it's so important to look at all the angles and have a clear mind. I just... really don't want to see you talk yourself into something that you would've otherwise realized wasn't right after all.

Obviously I understand caring about how other people feel. I don't know your brothers. But I think if they knew you were feeling pressured to end things to give them more money, they would tell you not to do that. I'm pretty sure they would rather have you alive than get that 33% and if getting out of that depressive period first had any chance whatsoever of you changing your mind, I think they'd take that. I know that I would with my sister.

If I found out that my sister had killed herself in part to try to make sure I got money, I wouldn't even be able to touch that money. Because every time I spent it I would feel incredibly guilty and devastated. At the thought that I'm partly to blame for her death. That it was somehow done for my gain. That would make it far worse for me.

Even if she killed herself later and I didn't get money out of it but could at least have a clear mind that this didn't contribute to her death, I would prefer that. Because otherwise I would think for the rest of my life about how my need for money killed my sister. That's how I'd feel. I would feel like I'm partially responsible for my sister dying.

So if you're going to think about what's best for your family, I can't read their minds, but I imagine they'd rather you not feel coerced to do it sooner rather than later just to get them money. I know that's how I'd feel if it were my sister.

And, to be clear, I'm not guilt-tripping you here. I don't believe in living just out of guilt. But you said you're trying to do what's best for your brothers here by putting this clock on it. And I think if I were one of your brothers, I'd prefer my sister not be ending things in part to get me more money. I'd prefer she wait over that. And I'd feel far worse if she didn't and no money in the world would be enough to change that.

Also, you may want to be sure your life insurance would even count in that case. Because with suicide it often doesn't, as far as I'm aware. Although I'll grant, I'm not super familiar with insurance stuff. That's just what I've heard. So I don't want to make any statements on it, just saying you may want to be sure of that. And to remember that these insurance companies will no doubt investigate THOROUGHLY.

As a sidenote, you've also not talked about what you've tried before. Like you said you've tried to address your eating disorders before, but have you tried to do so with a therapist? Or just alone? Have you ever tried any sort of medication? Cuz treatment options are important to consider too.

As for responding to everything, maybe that's not the most important thing. Maybe the most important thing is just to think about it honestly.

And there's one final thing... In my experience with CTB is often a choice we make, at least in part, because there's something else we want that we can't get. A first choice we'd prefer over CTB. So I'd ask you, what is it that you really want? What is it that you are trying to get? Because we're talking about all this stuff, but maybe it's more important for me to ask: What's really at the heart of all of this?

And I've edited this thing like 50.000 times at this point because I don't want to say the wrong thing here. But that's mostly because I care about what happens with you either way. I don't want to see anyone suffer unnecessarily when there's no hope and I think everyone's choice is their own, but I don't want to see someone who I think there's still hope die unnecessarily either. Because based on everything you've said, I do think there's still hope for you. Maybe I'm wrong about that, only you can decide that in the end but even though we've only known each other very briefly, I care enough about you to care about you making the right decision for you. I was gonna leave here and the only reason I'm coming back right now is to talk to you.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Long wall of text incoming...sorry

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here over the value of happiness. The way I see it, it's better than suffering, but worse than nonexistence. All the happiness in the world to me is just not worth it. And I know you'll say that I haven't experienced enough to be able to say that with any amount of confidence, but I have been in love before and I think that's the closest I'll ever get. It was true elation. But right now, if you gave me the option to go back to that time and experience that again, I would say no. Nonexistence still seems like the better option, and I have no desire to experience those wonderful things again.

Plus, I just don't see how happiness could ever justify suffering. For example, that same elation from being in love devolved into the worst pain I had ever felt and was the trigger for my first severe depressive episode. That was many years ago now, and yet it's still so painful that I can't even talk about this person out loud without getting choked up and in some instances, literally starting to cry. It's excruciatingly clear to me at this point that whatever joy I momentarily experienced wasn't worth what came after as a direct result of it. Of course, I can't generalize from this one example, and I know that not all types of happiness come with so much pain, but it is still true that in life, you can't have the one without the other. There's no way I can reach whatever theoretical happiness awaits me in the future without trudging through a sludge of suffering. Why would I willingly subject myself to that when I don't think the destination is worth it? Especially when instead I could just be a nonentity who is not unaware?

This is the "calculation" that I keep referring to. Basically when I imagine my best life--not my current life--and I compare that to nonexistence, I conclude that nonexistence is preferable. So while my priority is obviously still minimizing suffering, it's also true that I don't exclude future happiness from the equation, and I expressly take it into account. It's just not worth it to me when nonexistence is my other choice.

With all that said, I would also argue that looking solely at the absence of suffering is a completely valid framework to use due to how human brains work; suffering tends to be something we experience much more intensely and it tends to last longer/leave lasting imprints, whereas happiness tends to be fleeting and doesn't leave lasting marks. People can go their entire lives dealing with a single traumatic event that happened to them, but almost no one is left permanently affected by a single joyous event that happened. So I think this asymmetry can be warranted because we experience these two states, suffering and contentment, in an imbalanced way, so it would be a bit disingenuous to treat them as equals.

Pick a random moment. Just one moment. One second. Would you agree that in that second you'd rather have no suffering over suffering? I imagine you do and I agree too. I think this would be basically universally true. But in that one second, would you rather have joy over just no suffering? I think we would also both if we honestly think about it say "yes, we would." Because it's just as universal a thing as a desire not to suffer.

My instinct is actually to say no, I'd rather the "just no suffering" option, I'd rather not have to feel or be aware of anything. This could just be to due my current anhedonic state, but I think even when I was in a better period, the thing that was always lacking was a drive towards goodness. My drive towards death had disappeared, but the opposing force that was supposed to make me yearn for and seek out happiness never came into being.

I don't even know if I'm capable of joy anymore. Ever since my initial depression, I have been unable to experience these positives, unable to extract positive value out of things that should have an impact. Last year especially, I really tried getting out of my comfort zone and tried a lot of new things, many of which should have been fulfilling, but instead I just felt nothing. Mood-wise, I often felt better than average, and yet this piece remained...

So TLDR: while you see a good life as being desirable, I do not, and this is something that tends to remain constant regardless of whether I'm in an episode or not.

Also, I forgot to ask about this, but you say you've planned this out. But if I remember you also said you are in a depressive period. A period you said you know you're going to get out of, but you want to end things before then. But did you decide on this all BEFORE you entered the depressive period? Or after the depressive period had already begun? Because that also makes a difference here. You yourself seem to believe you'd think and feel differently if you left the period which you also feel is likely to happen. Isn't that kind of like drinking alcohol, deciding something while on alcohol and then doing it before the alcohol runs out? Because you know it will likely change your actions and beliefs.

Yes, I only started planning it when I was already undergoing the episode. But I don't really think that's relevant because my belief that suicide is the right path for me does not change with my mood. That's relatively constant. All that changes with my mood is how badly I want to actually go through with it.

Case in point: in the years since my depression first started, I have never once uttered the phrase "I'm so glad I didn't kill myself." I have certainly said the opposite many times ("I wish I had killed myself when I had the chance"), but no matter how well I was doing, it seemed obvious to me that nothing would have been lost if I had done it earlier.

Not to mention, it seems this thing that's happening with this guy is also affecting how you feel. Are you sure you wouldn't rather sit back and wait for that to pass so you at least have a slightly clearer mind on that?

Actually this thing has been acting as argument against suicide lately lol, because of the part of me that wants to see him again.

Obviously I understand caring about how other people feel. I don't know your brothers. But I think if they knew you were feeling pressured to end things to give them more money, they would tell you not to do that. I'm pretty sure they would rather have you alive than get that 33% and if getting out of that depressive period first had any chance whatsoever of you changing your mind, I think they'd take that. I know that I would with my sister.

If I found out that my sister had killed herself in part to try to make sure I got money, I wouldn't even be able to touch that money. Because every time I spent it I would feel incredibly guilty and devastated. At the thought that I'm partly to blame for her death. That it was somehow done for my gain. That would make it far worse for me.

Even if she killed herself later and I didn't get money out of it but could at least have a clear mind that this didn't contribute to her death, I would prefer that. Because otherwise I would think for the rest of my life about how my need for money killed my sister. That's how I'd feel. I would feel like I'm partially responsible for my sister dying.

So if you're going to think about what's best for your family, I can't read their minds, but I imagine they'd rather you not feel coerced to do it sooner rather than later just to get them money. I know that's how I'd feel if it were my sister.

And, to be clear, I'm not guilt-tripping you here. I don't believe in living just out of guilt. But you said you're trying to do what's best for your brothers here by putting this clock on it. And I think if I were one of your brothers, I'd prefer my sister not be ending things in part to get me more money. I'd prefer she wait over that. And I'd feel far worse if she didn't and no money in the world would be enough to change that.

Thanks, this at least helps me feel less pressured. Otherwise I think if I didn't kill myself this weekend I'd be dealing with a lot of guilt. I felt that I was in a real-life version of the trolley problem, where I had the option to kill myself and save five others...

My problem is just not knowing when exactly I'm going to CTB. If I end up doing it in a month anyway, then what was the point? It's not like I'm planning on doing much of anything from here on out now that I've quit my job. Probably just going to spend most of my time in bed. Get up at 3pm to have coffee, check SaSu, go for a walk, do whatever else my ED is demanding of me, go back to bed and do it all over again the next day. I can't even listen to podcasts or watch YouTube anymore because I'm too dead and can't bring myself to care anymore. Are a few months of that worth tens of thousands of dollars for my family?

Maybe you'll say that this is proof that I'm not ready to CTB, but weirdly enough, I feel like I could tolerate a life like the one I just outlined for a little while. At this point, I've been thinking about nothing but suicide for months, constantly, and I almost feel that I just need a break from even thinking about it. I wonder if that's what my brain has been trying to signal to me lately, with its inability to concentrate. That I just need to stop for a while. It's tempting, I must admit...but on a purely rational basis it makes no sense. Why would I take up resources for another few months and leave my family (and probably myself too) worse off when I'm just going to CTB anyway (I can say this with confidence because this is how relapses tend to go: a honeymoon phase during the first one to three months, then a crash into acute suicidality)?

Also, you may want to be sure your life insurance would even count in that case. Because with suicide it often doesn't, as far as I'm aware. Although I'll grant, I'm not super familiar with insurance stuff. That's just what I've heard. So I don't want to make any statements on it, just saying you may want to be sure of that. And to remember that these insurance companies will no doubt investigate THOROUGHLY.

Yeah I checked that, seems that if you've been with the company for over two years, then suicide is covered. So I'm good in that sense. My worry is that it ends on April 1st and so if I kill myself on March 31st...that might look a little suspicious. Especially because I really have not been careful about not leaving a paper trail and there's evidence of my deliberations in my notebook, in my (digital) journal, in my browsing history, in this very conversation, etc., so if they choose to go digging, it wouldn't be hard to find evidence that I had CTB'd in order to get that money (among other reasons). But when I think of that, I just think, I'd rather my brothers have at least the chance of getting that money, than none at all.

As a sidenote, you've also not talked about what you've tried before. Like you said you've tried to address your eating disorders before, but have you tried to do so with a therapist? Or just alone? Have you ever tried any sort of medication? Cuz treatment options are important to consider too.

Yes, I was being treated for my eating disorder at an outpatient clinic. Tbh I think I could've done just as well without it, it was pretty much just talk therapy. Still, it was useful in the sense that it gave me a place to vent about my frustrations in recovery. Relatively recently I also started seeing a psychiatrist, which I have so far found unhelpful.

I haven't tried medication and the only circumstance I would ever try it in is if I had made multiple (>=5) failed attempts and it became clear that I was condemned to life. The reason being is essentially what I spoke about earlier, about the fact that I don't see a good life as something worth striving for, and so I see no reason why I would go through the effortful process of trying to find a medication that might at best numb me out (my ED will already do that anyway) and at worst cause brain damage and permanent side effects. I'm not against medication per se, I just think that there's a certain group of people for whom it's helpful, and I am not part of that group. "Treatment" will be ineffective on someone who doesn't see getting better as a worthwhile task and who has all these philosophical ideas about nonexistence and such.

And there's one final thing... In my experience with CTB is often a choice we make, at least in part, because there's something else we want that we can't get. A first choice we'd prefer over CTB. So I'd ask you, what is it that you really want? What is it that you are trying to get? Because we're talking about all this stuff, but maybe it's more important for me to ask: What's really at the heart of all of this?

This is what the case seems to be for a lot of people, but I don't think it's the case for me. Once, I would've easily answered "a loving boyfriend" but I don't think that's true anymore, in fact I think that might cause more problems (and as I said there are a bunch of issues with just getting to that point).

As I put it a few months ago: once, my depression was tethered to my eating disorder. Then, it was animated by my desire for close companionship. Now, it has cut itself loose, and become its own creature. It is no longer the canary in the coalmine, warning me of deficiencies in my life and urging me to solve them if I ever want to feel good again. Rather, it has grown a life of its own, and now cannot be stopped by solving the original problem, for existence itself has become the problem. And the implication of that is clear.

I was gonna leave here and the only reason I'm coming back right now is to talk to you.

<3

Wouldn't you say that's making a judgement before things have played out though? You're having a very strong reaction to something but you don't know how it's going to play out yet. And without knowing why they're doing what they're doing, just speculating.

This isn't a friend or anything. He saw himself as having a specific role during a specific context and I think he feels he's now fulfilled that role, so it's reasonable to tie the bow on this whole thing.

Skip this next three paragraphs if you're worried that we're getting too chummy and don't want to know any more specifics about me...

To provide a little background, I met him at the place I used to volunteer at. I was still going there as my planned CTB date of March 9 approached. Due to how bad I am at masking, he figured out that something was going on (he had been suicidal in the past so he was well-placed to see the signs) and "intervened," giving me his number and offering to talk about what was going on. He made it clear fairly early on that he could be a "mentor" (his words) but nothing more. (Another piece of necessary context is that he's 29, and while that's not a huge difference, it's enough to give him a kind of "authority" just due to having more life experience, especially as someone who was also suicidal at my age. Which is a phrase he used a lot: "when I was your age...").

Me being isolated and all, I eventually took him up on the offer, even though I had strong reservations about doing so. (I know myself pretty well and so I knew that despite how clear he made those boundaries, it wasn't going to stop me from wanting more and I wanted to avoid landing myself in the very situation that I now found myself in).

Still, we didn't talk much, because I didn't want to get too close when I was going to CTB anyway. Regardless, he was the one I vented to when I was forcibly taken by the police to the hospital, and he's the only one IRL who knows that I made an attempt, and the only one who checked up on me (virtually only unfortunately) during my stay in the psych ward. Since I was released (and seemed to be doing better), it's been silence. Which is why I said at the beginning that I think he felt he had a specific role to play--getting me through an acute crisis--and now that he's done that, no further intervention is needed. I can't confirm that obviously but it would make sense. It just hurts because I'm not actually doing better and am in fact still acutely suicidal. I've kept all my preparations in tact and ask myself every weekend whether I'm going to do it or not today, and have come very close to saying yes.

I understand wanting a significant other. I do too. I also find that very important. And I've also been isolated a lot myself due to my social anxiety. But I've also found girlfriends before. And if I can find a girlfriend when I sometimes struggle to leave my house and have no friends, I have no doubt that you can find a boyfriend. It doesn't have to be this one, you know. Just because he's there and in your age range. There WILL be other guys. Very likely. And considering how quickly I've grown to like you, I see no reason why another guy couldn't too. Maybe you should try some new things to find one? Like what have you tried yet?

This is a rabbit-hole of a question lol. There are many reasons for my singlehood, some voluntary, some not.

Currently though, I am not open to getting into a relationship because I think it would be unethical. The fact of the matter is that I'm clearly an unstable person who can start starving herself or become suicidal at any minute, and once I'm in that state, there is no getting me out of it. I will doggedly pursue that goal no matter how senseless it may seem, so you will just have to stand there on the sidelines, powerlessly watching me waste away. It's not something I'm willing to put anyone through -- especially now that I actually have relapsed. In a few months' time, I won't even want a relationship anymore because my body will be too deprived to focus on anything but food. And if I don't CTB this weekend then I'm looking at May-July as the next possible date, so there's no point in even considering it.


Last thing:

I'm wondering something. After all the things you've said about happiness, about your hope for me, why do you consider your own situation to be so hopeless? What is it about this idea of "increasing the positives and decreasing the negatives" that doesn't apply to you? I don't mean this in a "gotcha, you're a hypocrite" way (and I hope you never would've interpreted it that way), it just isn't clear to me why there's a case for me staying alive and trying to get better again but not for you.

(As always, I know you want to maintain boundaries with other users on this site, so don't answer if you don't want to).

 

[KafkaF]

Long wall of text incoming...sorry

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here over the value of happiness. The way I see it, it's better than suffering, but worse than nonexistence. All the happiness in the world to me is just not worth it. And I know you'll say that I haven't experienced enough to be able to say that with any amount of confidence, but I have been in love before and I think that's the closest I'll ever get. It was true elation. But right now, if you gave me the option to go back to that time and experience that again, I would say no. Nonexistence still seems like the better option, and I have no desire to experience those wonderful things again.

Plus, I just don't see how happiness could ever justify suffering. For example, that same elation from being in love devolved into the worst pain I had ever felt and was the trigger for my first severe depressive episode. That was many years ago now, and yet it's still so painful that I can't even talk about this person out loud without getting choked up and in some instances, literally starting to cry. It's excruciatingly clear to me at this point that whatever joy I momentarily experienced wasn't worth what came after as a direct result of it. Of course, I can't generalize from this one example, and I know that not all types of happiness come with so much pain, but it is still true that in life, you can't have the one without the other. There's no way I can reach whatever theoretical happiness awaits me in the future without trudging through a sludge of suffering. Why would I willingly subject myself to that when I don't think the destination is worth it? Especially when instead I could just be a nonentity who is not unaware?

This is the "calculation" that I keep referring to. Basically when I imagine my best life--not my current life--and I compare that to nonexistence, I conclude that nonexistence is preferable. So while my priority is obviously still minimizing suffering, it's also true that I don't exclude future happiness from the equation, and I expressly take it into account. It's just not worth it to me when nonexistence is my other choice.

With all that said, I would also argue that looking solely at the absence of suffering is a completely valid framework to use due to how human brains work; suffering tends to be something we experience much more intensely and it tends to last longer/leave lasting imprints, whereas happiness tends to be fleeting and doesn't leave lasting marks. People can go their entire lives dealing with a single traumatic event that happened to them, but almost no one is left permanently affected by a single joyous event that happened. So I think this asymmetry can be warranted because we experience these two states, suffering and contentment, in an imbalanced way, so it would be a bit disingenuous to treat them as equals.

For me plenty of happiness has definitely left many lasting "marks" if you want to call it that. It's different than trauma, but not gone. There are still happy moments from a decade or more ago that I think about and draw happiness and strength from today, to the extent that's possible, just as much as I draw pain from the trama. It's different but no less important. But more importantly I'd say the distinction doesn't really matter that much. Happiness persists so long as it persists. Suffering persists so long as it persists. Whether it is during or after an event, it is the experience of it that matters when you are experiencing it. The argument you're essentially making is that suffering is longer because trauma can stick with you. However, that ignores that you can just experience more moments of happiness in the end. Trauma can also heal or get less intense. As for intensity in general, I suppose that's up to the individual experience. But I would definitely say that I have experienced some very intense happiness before that made suffering worth it. I am glad I did not kill myself before being happy with my fourth girlfriend. So at least I can tell you that's possible to feel a happiness that makes the suffering worth it. And it also depends on what state your brain is in. Like anhedonia or not, that affects both intensity and balance.

And there will always be some suffering, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will be the sludge of suffering that you've experienced so far.

Are you sure it isn't possible that this reasoning is being impacted by your current and the experience of your past unhappiness? Aren't you just basically saying that you don't want to feel how you feel now? But there are other ways to do that.

One love also cannot necessarily be compared to another, definitely not unrequited love. I was in unrequited love with someone as the first person I loved. And it was very intense for sure. And, in fact, it made me feel like utter shit and suicidal when she said no. I even gave her a nickname so I wouldn't have to say her name to friends afterwards. But in retrospect I realize that this unrequited love was very, very different from requited love. You don't feel that same depth of connection as when you say "I love you" and someone says "I love you" back. That's a very unique feeling.

Are you sure you're correct about what you calculate as your best life though? Are you sure you're bot just assuming it'll be like your past life? There are many things you seemingly haven't experienced. Like a loving boyfriend. And you don't seem to ever have experienced life after significant treatment with medicine and suitable therapy. Because not only can that heighten the highs, it can get rid of a lot of the lows you expect too. Not all of them, but a lot. Enough to alter your calculus. That future life could look significantly different from imagined. Not to mention if you find connection. Something you've also said you've felt starved of. There's just so much stuff still out there to counterbalance the bad stuff. How can you know that's all not worth it?

My instinct is actually to say no, I'd rather the "just no suffering" option, I'd rather not have to feel or be aware of anything. This could just be to due my current anhedonic state, but I think even when I was in a better period, the thing that was always lacking was a drive towards goodness. My drive towards death had disappeared, but the opposing force that was supposed to make me yearn for and seek out happiness never came into being.

I don't even know if I'm capable of joy anymore. Ever since my initial depression, I have been unable to experience these positives, unable to extract positive value out of things that should have an impact. Last year especially, I really tried getting out of my comfort zone and tried a lot of new things, many of which should have been fulfilling, but instead I just felt nothing. Mood-wise, I often felt better than average, and yet this piece remained...

So TLDR: while you see a good life as being desirable, I do not, and this is something that tends to remain constant regardless of whether I'm in an episode or not.

To me it sounds like not only is there anhedonia, but there is a deeper thing here that could benefit from intensive therapy. Something that keeps your mood lower than normal, even when you're not outright in a depressed episode. Have you considered that maybe you've been looking at life while wearing grey goggles the entire time? And that there may be a way to take them off and see the colours you've been missing?

Yes, I only started planning it when I was already undergoing the episode. But I don't really think that's relevant because my belief that suicide is the right path for me does not change with my mood. That's relatively constant. All that changes with my mood is how badly I want to actually go through with it.

Case in point: in the years since my depression first started, I have never once uttered the phrase "I'm so glad I didn't kill myself." I have certainly said the opposite many times ("I wish I had killed myself when I had the chance"), but no matter how well I was doing, it seemed obvious to me that nothing would have been lost if I had done it earlier.

The degree of wanting to go through with it IS important though. You separate the belief from the intensity here, but at the end of the day the intensity matters at least as much as the general belief. Because that is ultimately the thing that makes you decide how the scales tip. What is and isn't worth it or what measures up to what.

And of course "it seemed obvious to me that nothing would have been lost if I had done it earlier" can be true until it's not as well.

Actually this thing has been acting as argument against suicide lately lol, because of the part of me that wants to see him again.

Then why not try to do that?

Thanks, this at least helps me feel less pressured. Otherwise I think if I didn't kill myself this weekend I'd be dealing with a lot of guilt. I felt that I was in a real-life version of the trolley problem, where I had the option to kill myself and save five others...

My problem is just not knowing when exactly I'm going to CTB. If I end up doing it in a month anyway, then what was the point? It's not like I'm planning on doing much of anything from here on out now that I've quit my job. Probably just going to spend most of my time in bed. Get up at 3pm to have coffee, check SaSu, go for a walk, do whatever else my ED is demanding of me, go back to bed and do it all over again the next day. I can't even listen to podcasts or watch YouTube anymore because I'm too dead and can't bring myself to care anymore. Are a few months of that worth tens of thousands of dollars for my family?

Maybe leave them with less money, but also a lot less guilt, potentially. And I'd make that trade in an instant if I were them.

Maybe you'll say that this is proof that I'm not ready to CTB, but weirdly enough, I feel like I could tolerate a life like the one I just outlined for a little while. At this point, I've been thinking about nothing but suicide for months, constantly, and I almost feel that I just need a break from even thinking about it. I wonder if that's what my brain has been trying to signal to me lately, with its inability to concentrate. That I just need to stop for a while. It's tempting, I must admit...but on a purely rational basis it makes no sense. Why would I take up resources for another few months and leave my family (and probably myself too) worse off when I'm just going to CTB anyway (I can say this with confidence because this is how relapses tend to go: a honeymoon phase during the first one to three months, then a crash into acute suicidality)?

What you said actually does make a lot of sense. Your brain is going to function differently under a high pressure situation. My situation has definitely changed since last month. Not that I'm the picture of mental health or anything. But taking that time, especially taking time to not be under constant pressure and not think about suicide constantly, and just do things that calm you down or even just feeling you can just... live for a while and nothing else. It can make a difference. It can make a difference to not have a clock constantly rushing you too, I know that from experience. Just existing for a while with nothing else pushing you can clear your mind at least, for whatever outcome.

Why would you take up resources for a little longer? Why wouldn't you? Humanity is not going to miss those resources, I can promise that. There's billions of us so you taking up some resources won't matter to that. Your brothers would probably prefer to have you as long as they can (and definitely wouldn't want to feel implicated in your death). And you yourself... what does it matter to you that you used a few more resources once you're gone? What could you do with them afterwards? Nothing. I don't really see any reason not to do it. At worst it really does nothing much, but at best it gives you a little bit more clarity and peace of mind. And so you can say you've at least tried that and know you're at least clearer-headed before making a final, irreversible decision.

Yeah I checked that, seems that if you've been with the company for over two years, then suicide is covered. So I'm good in that sense. My worry is that it ends on April 1st and so if I kill myself on March 31st...that might look a little suspicious. Especially because I really have not been careful about not leaving a paper trail and there's evidence of my deliberations in my notebook, in my (digital) journal, in my browsing history, in this very conversation, etc., so if they choose to go digging, it wouldn't be hard to find evidence that I had CTB'd in order to get that money (among other reasons). But when I think of that, I just think, I'd rather my brothers have at least the chance of getting that money, than none at all.

Would they say the same? Would they really say that they'd rather get that money than keep you around longer? If my sister said that to me, I know what I would tell her. I'd know that I'd want her to stick around for however as long as I could have her be here. No matter what it cost. I wouldn't care if I had to spend every cent I have for that.

Yes, I was being treated for my eating disorder at an outpatient clinic. Tbh I think I could've done just as well without it, it was pretty much just talk therapy. Still, it was useful in the sense that it gave me a place to vent about my frustrations in recovery. Relatively recently I also started seeing a psychiatrist, which I have so far found unhelpful.

Not all talk therapy is the same though. I've been through a bunch of psychologists before. Going off of just the ones I went to for a long time I've really gone to 4. 3 of them didn't help me at all. But the 4th one helped me MASSIVELY. I went from not daring to go outside, to going to school and doing exams in less than a year. And in less than 2 years I had a girlfriend. The specific therapist and their therapeutic approach can make a MASSIVE difference. As in it can literally be the difference between not doing anything and completely changing your situation in a year. That's literally what happened with me. I had to find the right therapy and therapist for me.

By contrast I'm currently going to a second therapist of sorts (cuz I can't afford going to my primary therapist who helped me a lot as much as I need) and she hasn't helped me at all. Because her approach is always just to ask about how I'm doing today and go from there and that just doesn't work for me. I need a concrete, solid approach and I know that now, even if I didn't know it yet in 2014.

Maybe it would be interesting to explore just completely different types of therapy? It's another thing you can check off the list so you really know and can tell yourself that you've tried everything you could've. Cuz for me, at least, that's always been important. As I've said, I'm not inherently against suicide, but I've always been of the principle that I don't want to have that doubt that things could've turned out better. I want to be sure that I tried everything I could've to get better. Don't you want to know you've tried everything you could've? I think that would give you a lot of peace of mind even if you did CTB then.

I haven't tried medication and the only circumstance I would ever try it in is if I had made multiple (>=5) failed attempts and it became clear that I was condemned to life. The reason being is essentially what I spoke about earlier, about the fact that I don't see a good life as something worth striving for, and so I see no reason why I would go through the effortful process of trying to find a medication that might at best numb me out (my ED will already do that anyway) and at worst cause brain damage and permanent side effects. I'm not against medication per se, I just think that there's a certain group of people for whom it's helpful, and I am not part of that group. "Treatment" will be ineffective on someone who doesn't see getting better as a worthwhile task and who has all these philosophical ideas about nonexistence and such.

But that medication may make you feel different about a good life being worth striving for as well. Brain chemistry can do a lot in that way. Most medications they're likely to give you have pretty much no chance of brain damage. At least unless you use them for a very long time. Some side effects are not impossible, but usually they're not huge and go away if you stop taking the medication. And you don't necessarily have to find one. You have a psychiatrist, no? Ask them to recommend them. Plus, if there were larger side effects that didn't stop, you could still CTB then. Again, what do you really have to lose with just trying something like this? You just said yourself death would erase any suffering.

It's true that medication isn't effective on everyone. But you haven't tried it yet. So can you really justify saying you know it won't work on you? Philosophical ideas are one thing, but I think you have to remember that how you are thinking about all of these things is always going to be affected by how you feel. That's the case for everyone. You also seem to place such an emphasis on suffering and devalue happiness significantly by comparison, mostly because you are experiencing a lot of suffering (including due to long term trauma) and seem to have difficulty experiencing significant happiness. If that changed your equation would likely change. The way we feel can make us do "doomer thinking." There is no guarantee at all that you wouldn't feel differently about some of those philosophical leanings with medication or therapy or both.

This is what the case seems to be for a lot of people, but I don't think it's the case for me. Once, I would've easily answered "a loving boyfriend" but I don't think that's true anymore, in fact I think that might cause more problems (and as I said there are a bunch of issues with just getting to that point).

As I put it a few months ago: once, my depression was tethered to my eating disorder. Then, it was animated by my desire for close companionship. Now, it has cut itself loose, and become its own creature. It is no longer the canary in the coalmine, warning me of deficiencies in my life and urging me to solve them if I ever want to feel good again. Rather, it has grown a life of its own, and now cannot be stopped by solving the original problem, for existence itself has become the problem. And the implication of that is clear.

Isn't that maybe a sign in itself though? If you've just gone through this big shift (not to mention quitting your job) then I imagine that says a lot about the current mental state you have and so the state you're making this decision in. Are you sure that answer (or a different one) isn't going to come back after this period is over?

<3


This isn't a friend or anything. He saw himself as having a specific role during a specific context and I think he feels he's now fulfilled that role, so it's reasonable to tie the bow on this whole thing.

Skip this next three paragraphs if you're worried that we're getting too chummy and don't want to know any more specifics about me...

To provide a little background, I met him at the place I used to volunteer at. I was still going there as my planned CTB date of March 9 approached. Due to how bad I am at masking, he figured out that something was going on (he had been suicidal in the past so he was well-placed to see the signs) and "intervened," giving me his number and offering to talk about what was going on. He made it clear fairly early on that he could be a "mentor" (his words) but nothing more. (Another piece of necessary context is that he's 29, and while that's not a huge difference, it's enough to give him a kind of "authority" just due to having more life experience, especially as someone who was also suicidal at my age. Which is a phrase he used a lot: "when I was your age...").

Me being isolated and all, I eventually took him up on the offer, even though I had strong reservations about doing so. (I know myself pretty well and so I knew that despite how clear he made those boundaries, it wasn't going to stop me from wanting more and I wanted to avoid landing myself in the very situation that I now found myself in).

Still, we didn't talk much, because I didn't want to get too close when I was going to CTB anyway. Regardless, he was the one I vented to when I was forcibly taken by the police to the hospital, and he's the only one IRL who knows that I made an attempt, and the only one who checked up on me (virtually only unfortunately) during my stay in the psych ward. Since I was released (and seemed to be doing better), it's been silence. Which is why I said at the beginning that I think he felt he had a specific role to play--getting me through an acute crisis--and now that he's done that, no further intervention is needed. I can't confirm that obviously but it would make sense. It just hurts because I'm not actually doing better and am in fact still acutely suicidal. I've kept all my preparations in tact and ask myself every weekend whether I'm going to do it or not today, and have come very close to saying yes.

You've said that you don't feel you have a reason to live. Yet this relationship slowed you down. To me that sounds like having a feeling of human connection is important and valuable to you. And that if you had a lot more of this, with a person who's a little more involved, that might well make a difference for you. Human connection is important to us. It is a basic need like food or water.

At any rate, if he wants to be a mentor, wouldn't he want you to talk to him about all of this?

This is a rabbit-hole of a question lol. There are many reasons for my singlehood, some voluntary, some not.

Currently though, I am not open to getting into a relationship because I think it would be unethical. The fact of the matter is that I'm clearly an unstable person who can start starving herself or become suicidal at any minute, and once I'm in that state, there is no getting me out of it. I will doggedly pursue that goal no matter how senseless it may seem, so you will just have to stand there on the sidelines, powerlessly watching me waste away. It's not something I'm willing to put anyone through -- especially now that I actually have relapsed. In a few months' time, I won't even want a relationship anymore because my body will be too deprived to focus on anything but food. And if I don't CTB this weekend then I'm looking at May-July as the next possible date, so there's no point in even considering it.

I understand the ethical difficulty, and I've considered it too, but you're assuming that things would stay exactly as they are or were before if you found someone. That's something called the black swan fallacy. (This fallacy can also refer to the tendency to believe that things they've never witnessed don't exist). But you could also find someone who actually gives you the connection that you crave. Helps you get through therapy so you won't relapse (social connections are one of the best predictors of effective treatment) and someone who will be incredibly happy wih you. It feels like self-sabotage. And, you know, maybe once in a while you get to be a little bit "selfish."

Btw, an extremely food deprived state... also can impact your mental state and make you less capable of feeling things like joy and thinking clearly. You shouldn't forget about that either. It does impact our brain chemistry.

You know, I've talked to people before. And thought about them... "Yeah, they're out of options. And they're suffering and there's no likely end to their suffering. Maybe if they want to die that's okay." But with you I just don't get that. I still see so much that could be done and tried. And I just get the sense that you're in such a vulnerable state right now because of so many of the things you've laid out. You're in a depressed episode, you just relapsed in you ED, you just quit your job, etc. I mean, that's a lot for literally anyone to take and still be clear-minded, let alone someone who's clearly had such a difficult time already. I hope you take that into account.

The option to end it will still be there in July, once you're in less shock. And if you absolutely want to make it in a depressed state, if you're right about how things are likely to go then a new depressed state will just come back and then you'll get another chance at that too. The option to CTB never disappears, but the option to solve things differently and try things you haven't tried yet does if you CTB. Waiting a little while so you're sure you have a clear mind and no doubts if not making your life better in the end may give you peace of mind at the end.

I'll say this to you as well. I wish that I could give you a big hug right now. Because I would. And I'm glad I've been able to talk to you and get to know you. Because you actually seem like an incredible person and I have to admit that I do think it would really suck for you to be gone from the world. I do think the world's a little better with you in it. You should know that, at least.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you. And I hope I haven't given that impression. It's more that I was trying to sort things out these things together with you. But I did also want you to know that someone else is here. I do care that you exist. And I just really hope you can take a step back for a moment from how you're feeling right now and what you've been reading for months (because that too can impact someone), and just think about all this. That's all I hope. That you genuinely can take a step back from any preconceptions or what you're feeling (which it's easy for people like us to get trapped in, I think) and really, genuinely step back and think about all of this. At the end of the day you are the one who gets to make the choice you feel is best for you, but if you have even any doubt or uncertainty about any of this, remember that there is always another time you can CTB. The reverse is not true.

That is all I wanted to say anymore. I hope you take my words to heart and I genuinely wish you well.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I'll say this to you as well. I wish that I could give you a big hug right now. Because I would. And I'm glad I've been able to talk to you and get to know you. Because you actually seem like an incredible person and I have to admit that I do think it would really suck for you to be gone from the world. I do think the world's a little better with you in it. You should know that, at least.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you. And I hope I haven't given that impression. It's more that I was trying to sort things out these things together with you. But I did also want you to know that someone else is here. I do care that you exist. And I just really hope you can take a step back for a moment from how you're feeling right now and what you've been reading for months (because that too can impact someone), and just think about all this. That's all I hope. That you genuinely can take a step back from any preconceptions or what you're feeling (which it's easy for people like us to get trapped in, I think) and really, genuinely step back and think about all of this. At the end of the day you are the one who gets to make the choice you feel is best for you, but if you have even any doubt or uncertainty about any of this, remember that there is always another time you can CTB. The reverse is not true.

That is all I wanted to say anymore. I hope you take my words to heart and I genuinely wish you well.

This was very touching, I must say. Even just the fact that you would spend so much effort writing to me and trying to work things out with me. I see it and I appreciate it. Regardless of whether I (or you, for that matter) CTB in the future, you've had a positive impact on at least one person on this site.

The biggest thing I'm grateful for is the respect you have shown me. The main reason why I have found it so difficult to even broach this subject among so-called "pro-lifers" in the past is that they don't respect my position and just view it as flat-out wrong, and after that it becomes impossible to have a discussion in good-faith. So thank you for not dismissing me due to my age or your disagreement with my position or any other factor. Also thank you for not being glib or dismissive about the issue of me wanting a partner. This is often met with just as many platitudes as suicidality is, and it can be really frustrating when it's a pretty basic human need and you're made to feel like there's something wrong with you for wanting it.

I'm not so keen on the idea of stepping back and thinking though, because I'm already too burnt out on thinking about all this. I'm not going to close the door on that possibility obviously--I may just need some time to rest--and I will probably keep coming back to this conversation to re-read what you said, but with that said, I don't see my foundational convictions changing any time soon. Even when I look back at my childhood, before my depression, I think deep down I never saw the point in life, even in a good life (and I had a very good childhood, trauma-free). I was kind of just living out of habit, and the only reason I wasn't suicidal was that I hadn't been given reason to question that habit. As Camus said, we acquire the habit of living before we acquire the habit of thinking.

Now is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Have I already dug my own grave? Is this me truly being a scientist about my hypothesis? I'm not sure. Though I've tried to frame my thinking in this way for the past few months, I wonder if it isn't just one big intellectual exercise. Because this isn't something you can actually test, and there is no right answer. When it comes to beliefs like this, I get the sense that it's something you intuit first and then rationalize later. And that goes for everyone. It's like belief in God, in that sense: you can make rational arguments both for and against, but there's no way to prove it either way, so people are ultimately going to land wherever their past experiences and existing predispositions lead them to, and we just have to respect that.

But anyway, unless something radically changes within the next few hours, I think I've decided not to CTB this weekend. The stupidest thing I keep thinking about is "God I hope the water's not gross in the summer" lol. But it's both a defeat and a relief. I really did want to be gone this month. I wish I had succeeded with my attempt, I wish I wasn't here right now. I never wanted to see another summer again (I hate summer), I didn't even want to see April. And that's painful. To still be here, living and breathing, when you were so convinced that you weren't going to be...

But I think now that I have this other option, of lying in bed all day and not working, it would be impossible to willingly choose the terror of drowning over something so easy and comfortable. To that end, has anyone ever linked you to this article? The author puts it perfectly:

I think what I hate most of all is having to deal with all of this in the first place. I don't want to have to deal with suicide. I don't want to have to deal with death. But I must because I have something else I have to deal with, something I never wanted to deal with, something I wish I never had: life.

But, oh, how I so do not want to deal with any of this! I want to be spared from life, but in order to do that I must face suicide. However, I also want to be spared from suicide. But if I turn from suicide, I'm back to facing life!

Suicide seems like the better deal. It's certainly shorter in duration. And that aspect makes this debate seem so simple. However, every ounce of my instinct cries out, "Don't do it! Stay alive! Stay alive at all costs!" To which, internally, I reply, "Why?" But these cries supply no reasons for they cannot. They stem from a mindless drive to persist. I can push them aside through further questioning, yet still they shout. Is it fear that halts me and makes me listen? I honestly don't know. All I know is that they're not easy to ignore.

But neither are my own anguished pleas. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be anywhere. I simply do not want to be. And I don't have to be. This can all stop. Go. Just get this over with.

An exit is indeed available, but it requires a lot of effort to go through. And it's effort that I wish I didn't have to exert. I was thrust into this life unaware. I'll echo a previous commenter and say that the best that could happen now is to at least exit unaware as well. But beyond some outside chance, that's not going to happen. And so I return once more to the choice forced into my hands.

But as I said, I despise this choice. And though I can't avoid it entirely, what I can do is postpone it.

 

[KafkaF]

This was very touching, I must say. Even just the fact that you would spend so much effort writing to me and trying to work things out with me. I see it and I appreciate it. Regardless of whether I (or you, for that matter) CTB in the future, you've had a positive impact on at least one person on this site.

Thank you. You have had a positive impact on me as well, you know. It's easy to get lost in our own thoughts. It has been good for me to think about these things too. And I guess it just feels good to be able to help someone. And obviously the circumstances aren't great but... I did enjoy talking to you. You're a deep thinker. And that's something I've always appreciated in people, but rarely found.

The biggest thing I'm grateful for is the respect you have shown me. The main reason why I have found it so difficult to even broach this subject among so-called "pro-lifers" in the past is that they don't respect my position and just view it as flat-out wrong, and after that it becomes impossible to have a discussion in good-faith. So thank you for not dismissing me due to my age or your disagreement with my position or any other factor. Also thank you for not being glib or dismissive about the issue of me wanting a partner. This is often met with just as many platitudes as suicidality is, and it can be really frustrating when it's a pretty basic human need and you're made to feel like there's something wrong with you for wanting it.

Of course, because I firmly believe you DESERVE that respect.

And I also know what that's like talking to pro-lifers. Hearing them spout their platitudes... it doesn't help anything or anyone. And I know that. They're often not even really engaging with you or having a genuine conversation. It's like they're just filling out a crossword. And I thought you deserved the respect of a conversation where we are both equals. And I firmly believe that your choice is your own and considering the importance of that choice that your thinking is to be respected, whether it's the same as mine or not. I just wanted to help you as best I could and make you feel heard. =)

And, yeah, I've faced that dismissal too. But, like you said, wanting love is a basic human need. I think a lot of pro-lifers and "normies" don't understand what it's like to be so deprived of that connection... it's painful. Connection is, at the end of the day, a need that ties us all together. It is something fundamentally human. And it IS important and there is NOTHING wrong with you wanting it. Remember that. Your desire for that is valid.

I'm not so keen on the idea of stepping back and thinking though, because I'm already too burnt out on thinking about all this. I'm not going to close the door on that possibility obviously--I may just need some time to rest--and I will probably keep coming back to this conversation to re-read what you said, but with that said, I don't see my foundational convictions changing any time soon. Even when I look back at my childhood, before my depression, I think deep down I never saw the point in life, even in a good life (and I had a very good childhood, trauma-free). I was kind of just living out of habit, and the only reason I wasn't suicidal was that I hadn't been given reason to question that habit. As Camus said, we acquire the habit of living before we acquire the habit of thinking.

I understand that. I have been there too. It is exhausting. It is a heavy burden to have to deal with all this shit. And you've gone through a rough time with everything that's happened recently. And I think you're right, time and rest if nothing else may give you a little bit of peace of mind. And, yeah, of course I don't expect you to close the door on that possibility. That choice will always be yours. It's just a good idea to keep in mind that there may be other choices too. Including just existing for a little while. =)

About the childhood I do wonder though maybe it might be worth thinking carefully at some point (probably not right now) about why that was if you haven't already. There may be a reason there you've yet to explore. Maybe there's something there yet to be discovered...

You know, for me, I actually would've said kind of the same thing about my childhood a few years ago. That it was relatively okay. And in most ways it was. But in retrospect what I've also discovered over the last couple of years (with the help of my psychologist) is that the way my parents treated me was actually not normal or ok. The constant yelling over every small mistake I made, the putting me down and shaming me all the time, the putting up impossible standards, the ignoring of my emotions. I never felt about my parents the way other kids did. And I never understood why until a couple of years ago because I thought for most of my life that all that stuff was normal. Sometimes we don't understand the reasons for our own feelings. I'm not saying that's the same for you, btw. I don't know your parents at all. They could be the best people ever. I'm just saying in general that... it can sometimes be useful to examine these things in retrospect. Because sometimes there's an answer there to a question you didn't even know you had. A reason you felt a certain way you weren't even aware of.

I'm also an HSP, so that probably has affected my life too. And it's something I wasn't aware of until my psychologist suggested I look into it last year.

Now is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Have I already dug my own grave? Is this me truly being a scientist about my hypothesis? I'm not sure. Though I've tried to frame my thinking in this way for the past few months, I wonder if it isn't just one big intellectual exercise. Because this isn't something you can actually test, and there is no right answer. When it comes to beliefs like this, I get the sense that it's something you intuit first and then rationalize later. And that goes for everyone. It's like belief in God, in that sense: you can make rational arguments both for and against, but there's no way to prove it either way, so people are ultimately going to land wherever their past experiences and existing predispositions lead them to, and we just have to respect that.

I think there's definitely truth to that. I do believe that there are objective truths, but I also believe you're right that we often make our rational arguments influenced by what we want, what we think the answer should be, what we feel at the time, etc. I think that's true for everyone. And that's human. And we can all only try our best to see beyond our own preconceptions.

But anyway, unless something radically changes within the next few hours, I think I've decided not to CTB this weekend. The stupidest thing I keep thinking about is "God I hope the water's not gross in the summer" lol. But it's both a defeat and a relief. I really did want to be gone this month. I wish I had succeeded with my attempt, I wish I wasn't here right now. I never wanted to see another summer again (I hate summer), I didn't even want to see April. And that's painful. To still be here, living and breathing, when you were so convinced that you weren't going to be...

You know, odd as it is, your water comment makes me want to give you a hug. And I wish you clear waters. =p

I understand. It's normal, I think, to have mixed feelings at a time like this. I've been there too. You build up the expectation and then... you're still here. And it's a relief and it sucks. Although I guess if I had CTBd we wouldn't have been able to have this conversation today, so I like to think that's for the better, at least. We humans are a living contradiction, I guess. We have so many things we want and don't want and care about and don't and it all gets mixed up together into a confusing soup sometimes. Especially at times like these.

I can't tell you what the future will hold. And right now, it doesn't matter. You can maybe just sigh and let it go for a while and just exist for a little bit. Maybe cuddle up with a stuffed animal and read a book or watch an old series you love. Maybe this will end up being a turning point for you, maybe not. But regardless though, maybe for a little while you don't have to make a choice right now.

But I think now that I have this other option, of lying in bed all day and not working, it would be impossible to willingly choose the terror of drowning over something so easy and comfortable. To that end, has anyone ever linked you to this article? The author puts it perfectly:

Yeah, I think that'll be a good thing for a little while. =)

As for the article, I'm obviously not going to go back into all of the things we've already talked about. I think we've explored a lot of it together. But I will say, you know, there have been a lot of times where I simply didn't want to be here. A LOT. There still are, tbh. And I think it is true that survival instinct is one of the things that held me back, no doubt. But I do think, for me at least, I've always felt it has been more than that. I didn't always know what. I've also cried into that darkness for an answer and didn't really know why I was staying. But I think I have gotten a better idea over time about what I value. I think maybe it's just something we don't always know, at least not in a moment like that. Maybe no one can tell you what your reason for life is. Not even you yourself sometimes. Maybe we don't always want to know. Maybe it's just not an answer we always do know, but it's something that's inside of us and affects us that we have to examine and discover. You know, just below the surface. We are a riddle to ourselves sometimes. But riddles can be solved. And I've always been of the mind that that can give us perspective. To better know what that is.

For my money, from what we've talked about, I think one thing you seem to seek is connection. Which makes sense, it's a basic human need. And I think it's one that's maybe especially meaningful to you. There's probably more than that though, idk. I don't know you well enough to even guess. Maybe you can figure it out one day. I hope you do find that answer one day, no matter what it leads you to. =)

And I hope I didn't leave you with too big a wall of text again. =p You don't need to respond to all of it or any of it. I just hope it has a positive impact on you. =)

Oh, and sorry if any of this comes across as confused or rambly or whatever. I've literally barely slept today. My apologies. >.<