Yeah I keep reading about smokers having a problem with this method but nothing really on how what to do about it lol. Like do I need more helium because my lungs are covered in tar, or is it just going to take longer, or what...? Lol
Yeah I keep reading about smokers having a problem with this method but nothing really on how what to do about it lol. Like do I need more helium because my lungs are covered in tar, or is it just going to take longer, or what...? Lol
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
I remember reading somewhere that smokers inhale more air per breath. Only a guess that that is due to tar in the lungs. That may mean that you may need to set the regulator for a flow rate higher than 15 liters/min, which is why you need more gas. Really not sure if it takes longer. This is just my two cents, though. TiredHorse is quite knowledgeable, hopefully he will shed some light. Good luck to you!
Basic question: CO or inert gas (argon, nitrogen) ? Opinions about the methods, comparison ?
I have little experience with 'charcoal', don't have a small car and as for a small tent: I'd have to buy one and put one in my living room ! And specs ...
I have little experience with 'charcoal', don't have a small car and as for a small tent: I'd have to buy one and put one in my living room ! And specs ...
I wish I had a really good answer for you, folks. The only situation I know about with any confidence is that of people with COPD --commonly long-term smokers-- and how their difficulty in cycling the air in their lungs makes it more difficult for them to expell the CO2 and residual O2 from their lungs/bloodstreams. Effectively, they can't cycle the gas (air or ig) in their lungs effectively enough for the method to work. With smokers who do not have COPD, I suspect a lesser version of this same problem is at play, given how smoking weakens your lungs in general. But I don't know how to modify the method to account for that. I can't say eb/ig won't work for you, but nor can I say that it will, or how to modify the basic protocol --increased time?, increased flow rate?-- in order to improve your chances of success.
Two completely different animals. CO is monopolozing your blood cells' receptors with CO and leaving them no ability to collect whatever O2 is available. IG is completely excluding O2 from the atmosphere you are inhaling from. The many practical differences have probably been discussed here before, in other threads, and the choice of which to use can be made on many different factors, but you can be certain they are both effective when applied correctly.
Hmmm... I thought that was Balloon time and small party tanks, not the big rental tanks you can get for balloons? I'm in Canada. The few places I'm looking at say 100% and also mention how some fill with air but they do not.... I thought thatd br safe
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Yes, those were the ones - they were easy to get, shipped easy.
As long as your source specifically states 100% or pure helium, then you you are good.
Whew! I'm pretty set on helium so you had me worried! Lol In my city the big party and balloon places rent and deliver these tanks. That's why I was asking "how many balloons" I'd need when I call and not ask for 600L helium
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Hi Harriet,
I'm set on inert gas deliverance too.
I believe it is second only to dying in your sleep.
Sadly, we have no control over that luxury.
I will use nitrogen, because helium is becoming scarce.
I don't want to use up limited resources for my own benefit, when nitrogen will work just as well.
Since a large percentage of the atmosphere is nitrogen, there is no chance of it becoming scarce.
It will feel identical to breathing air, just without the oxygen.
I will try to search on-line to see if I can find volume/fill ratios for balloons.
Nice talking to you.
Hush Sweet Charlotte
Member
- Dec 25, 2018
- 82
Hi everyone.
I was set on using nitrogen and bought the Max Dog EU regulator, as they had a link to the German company that can deliver across Europe. Unfortunately, when I tried to order the gas, the delivery to the UK appeared to be ten THOUSAND euros, unless I've misunderstood insanely. I wish that the PPeH didn't list this company as delivering to the UK at all. I've emailed Max Dog to ask if their UK regulator set is due to be in stock again but I'm guessing it won't be any time soon so need to make other plans.
Has anyone in the UK had success finding the right equipment? Adams Gas will deliver nitrogen but I don't have a clue how to buy the correct regulator and flowmeter for use with it. Given they're only 2litre tanks I wouldn't want to get the flow wrong.
Otherwise I'm interested in the ebay tank that Crova posted a link to - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nitrogen...h=item2a86eff418:g:X58AAOSwjjpbKqxH:rk:2:pf:1
They're a highly rated seller that specialises in welding equipment, which is something. They say the gas is for filling tyres, which I don't know if that means it is pure nitrogen. Have emailed them to ask but don't know if they speak English. The flowmeter can be set to a maximum of 15 litres / minute.
Any thoughts much welcomed!
I was set on using nitrogen and bought the Max Dog EU regulator, as they had a link to the German company that can deliver across Europe. Unfortunately, when I tried to order the gas, the delivery to the UK appeared to be ten THOUSAND euros, unless I've misunderstood insanely. I wish that the PPeH didn't list this company as delivering to the UK at all. I've emailed Max Dog to ask if their UK regulator set is due to be in stock again but I'm guessing it won't be any time soon so need to make other plans.
Has anyone in the UK had success finding the right equipment? Adams Gas will deliver nitrogen but I don't have a clue how to buy the correct regulator and flowmeter for use with it. Given they're only 2litre tanks I wouldn't want to get the flow wrong.
Otherwise I'm interested in the ebay tank that Crova posted a link to - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nitrogen...h=item2a86eff418:g:X58AAOSwjjpbKqxH:rk:2:pf:1
They're a highly rated seller that specialises in welding equipment, which is something. They say the gas is for filling tyres, which I don't know if that means it is pure nitrogen. Have emailed them to ask but don't know if they speak English. The flowmeter can be set to a maximum of 15 litres / minute.
Any thoughts much welcomed!
Hush Sweet Charlotte
Member
- Dec 25, 2018
- 82
Also I've no idea how much gas the Polish ebay tank contains. It does say it's 1.6m3 which is 56.5 cubic feet. So it seems like a lot, but I am however utterly clueless.
Roy King
Member
- Jan 12, 2019
- 37
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Hi Hush Sweet Charlotte,
This ebay seems like a very good deal, you get the regulator and everything! So no worry about fit, etc.
56 cubic feet should be plenty, as the estimates are that 22 cubic feet are needed to do the job.
This would provide 2.5 times the necessary amount.
The regulator is fitted with a 1/4 inch barbed fitting for the hose, so you don't even have to worry about that.
It does bother me a little the regulator has 15 Liter/Min max flow rate, which is what is needed for this task.
The other thing that bothers me is that there is no mention of purity or 100% nitrogen,
and the fact its intended purpose is filling tyres, which would not require pure nitrogen.
I would not place an order until you get confirmation that it is pure nitrogen.
I'm in USA, so can't help with Eu sources, sorry.
Good luck, I hope you can get what you need!
I only have 420 liters of helium. Could this work, too? It would be 28 minutes of inhaling helium.
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Some people will ctb in 28 min, others will not.
The recommended minimum to guarantee ctb for everybody is 40 minutes, anything else is iffy.
Significant brain damage has already occurred in two minutes after you pass out.
You want to be absolutely sure you ctb after that point, or your life will be a living hell!
40 min at 15 L/min = 600 liters = 21.1888 cubic feet
definitely NOT worth the risk of anything less
I will also add, from my own experience (five failed attempts --@#$% survival instinct!), that it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to follow the protocol of breathing slowly and deeply. Which translates into a longer time to unconsciousness and, thus, to death. I have a 40cf cylinder, and have been glad to have that extra margin for error, not only because of the gas I wasted in my failed attempts, but because of that longer time to unconsciousness.
Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
My plan is to count to 30 and if I am not "out" by then, I will abort my attempt.
Did you measure your BPM while at rest?
Sorry for the questions, I know you are trying to recover but we also selfishly appreciate your input here too.
Hush Sweet Charlotte
Member
- Dec 25, 2018
- 82
Thanks color me gone,
Yes it does look good. In the UK it seems you have to install a separate regulator and flowmeter, which leaves much margin for my ineptitude with anything technical, so it's good this is all-in-one. I'll wait for them to get back to me as I'd need to be sure it's pure nitrogen for sure. What bothers you about the flowmeter - is it that there's no possibility to set it higher than 15l / min?
I'm actually worried about using too much gas in such a large tank as I don't want to harm anyone who comes in later. I'm on the ground floor so won't be able to leave the windows too wide open for the gas to dissipate. But then using a tank with a very small margin or error would cause even more stress and panic and make the process harder to achieve...
Yes it does look good. In the UK it seems you have to install a separate regulator and flowmeter, which leaves much margin for my ineptitude with anything technical, so it's good this is all-in-one. I'll wait for them to get back to me as I'd need to be sure it's pure nitrogen for sure. What bothers you about the flowmeter - is it that there's no possibility to set it higher than 15l / min?
I'm actually worried about using too much gas in such a large tank as I don't want to harm anyone who comes in later. I'm on the ground floor so won't be able to leave the windows too wide open for the gas to dissipate. But then using a tank with a very small margin or error would cause even more stress and panic and make the process harder to achieve...
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Sometimes controls can be inaccurate when you set them to their limits. I'm not saying that this will be the case in your situation, but it is something to worry about. This is not something you want to go wrong. I would feel safer if you had one that went higher. Perhaps TiredHorse can give his opinion. I has lots of experience with these things. Actually, with large amount of gas you are getting, even if the flow were higher, you have a margin of error of 250%, so that is not troublesome. What could be troublesome is if the flow was less than 15 L/M.
You have nothing to worry there. The gas dissipates pretty quickly, and it is not poisonous like CO is. Just opening the door to the room will provide enough oxygen for anyone who comes in later. And with the windows cracked, no problem at all. Remember that air is something like 78% nitrogen anyway, so it will not take a lot of oxygen to restore air to normal.
So the biggest concern here is that the gas is pure nitrogen.
I couldnt find a regulator with flowmeter for helium. Can anyone help me, please? By the way I am living in Germany. I dont know anything about such stuff. Please, help me!
Both a few comments and a question.
It's seems somewhat convoluted, you need the gas, a hose, a 'plastic' bag, a regulator and some duct tape. (partly kidding)
And about 40 minutes or so. But wouldn it not take a few minutes to pass out and at most a few more minutes to die ?
It's seems somewhat convoluted, you need the gas, a hose, a 'plastic' bag, a regulator and some duct tape. (partly kidding)
And about 40 minutes or so. But wouldn it not take a few minutes to pass out and at most a few more minutes to die ?
My concern with "counting to 30" is that my sense of time went completely haywire due to stress. Had I been counting, I might have covered that 30-count in 30 seconds, 90 seconds, or 3 seconds. I honestly have no idea. To riff off what one user here did, you might consider setting a 1 minute timer. If it chimes and you're still awake to hear it, abort. If you don't hear it...
No, I didn't think to measure my BPM. Never crossed my mind. I have no doubt that during my attempts it was off the scale.
No problem on the reply. I'm having a rough time these last couple days, so I'm checking back in only sporadically.
Flowmeters: Any gauge's greatest accuracy is in the center of its range. A gauge that measures flow from 0-100 Lpm would have its greatest accuracy around 50Lpm. A gauge that measures from 0-30Lpm would have its greatest accuracy around 15Lpm. That's just the way gauges work. That said, if the regulator has detent (click) settings, they tend to be pretty accurate on those settings. For instance, in EMS our O2 regulators had click settings at (I think) 2, 5, 10, and 15Lpm, and they were factory calibrated to be spot on.
You do need air flow to make sure the N2 dissipates --or, more accurately, is diluted with air. So cross-ventilation would be for the best. I also planned to leave a note for whoever was likely to find me, explaining that N2 was not toxic but that they should open the door and let the room vent for a few minutes.
Yes: gas cylinder, regulator/flowmeter, hose, and an exit bag.
Theoretically you pass out very quickly. In real practice, I had a long enough time to flub it. Stress makes the theoretical very different from the practical. Anyway, the 40 minutes is to provide a good margin for error.
Hush Sweet Charlotte
Member
- Dec 25, 2018
- 82
Hmm... for safety reasons, not least that the only place I can store the cylinder is next to my bed (and I'm planning to still be here as long as possible), I would prefer to use helium instead of n2. Mainly in case of leaks leaving me vegetablised.
Is there a way to store the cylinder to prevent any gas leaking out over time does anyone know?
Still the problem is the only flowmeter available in the UK seems to be for argon. I tried to follow the calculation links Adrian posted earlier but they only made me wish I hadn't spent my life in the arts instead of figuring out how to do sums. I wonder if the argon flowmeter is even suitable for n2, though it would seem much more equivalent.
Is there a way to store the cylinder to prevent any gas leaking out over time does anyone know?
Still the problem is the only flowmeter available in the UK seems to be for argon. I tried to follow the calculation links Adrian posted earlier but they only made me wish I hadn't spent my life in the arts instead of figuring out how to do sums. I wonder if the argon flowmeter is even suitable for n2, though it would seem much more equivalent.
Last things first: on my N2 tank I use a regulator/flowmeter that is officially for argon/CO2 and I don't worry about it too much. I have no doubt there is a minor difference in precision, but for what we're using it for I'm not so worried that it's worth the headache of running sums like that. I, too, have spent my life in the arts, not maths.
A commercial cylinder shouldn't leak. Not only are leaks expensive to companies who need to use their gas to turn a profit, but gas leaks are, in general, dangerous, and the companies who fill the cylinders could be held liable if they filled a tank with a faulty valve. I know from working with the fire department, valves are rigorously certified, checked, and re-certified on a schedule, by the filling companies. If you want a simple test, you can seal a flap of turkey bag tight across the valve outlet --just bind it in place over the threads with a few hard turns of twine-- and see whether it bulges. No bulge, no leak. And if the leak is too slow to show like that, it's too slow to cause you any brain damage. Helium would float away, yes, but Ar and N2 are both significant componants of the air you're breathing anyway, so at that microscopically higher percentage, you'd never notice.
A commercial cylinder shouldn't leak. Not only are leaks expensive to companies who need to use their gas to turn a profit, but gas leaks are, in general, dangerous, and the companies who fill the cylinders could be held liable if they filled a tank with a faulty valve. I know from working with the fire department, valves are rigorously certified, checked, and re-certified on a schedule, by the filling companies. If you want a simple test, you can seal a flap of turkey bag tight across the valve outlet --just bind it in place over the threads with a few hard turns of twine-- and see whether it bulges. No bulge, no leak. And if the leak is too slow to show like that, it's too slow to cause you any brain damage. Helium would float away, yes, but Ar and N2 are both significant componants of the air you're breathing anyway, so at that microscopically higher percentage, you'd never notice.
Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
How should one "practice" this method, if at all?
My plan is to use the 20cu ft tank for rehearsals and the 40cu ft tank for showtime.
My plan is to use the 20cu ft tank for rehearsals and the 40cu ft tank for showtime.
I did a couple things.
The first was to just fill the eb with air and sit with it over my head until breathing became challenging. Not so far that I got panicky, because I didn't want to create a learned aversion to the bag, but just so that I could get used to having a bag over my head. This taught me 1) it takes a surprising amount of time to exhaust the O2 in the bag, and 2) the bag fogs up, but it isn't unpleasant or claustrophobic. And when I was making a real attempt, the flow of N2 actually kept the bag un-fogged.
The second was that I ran "dry" drills: I'd sit in my chair with the entire apparatus set up and the eb ready to go but no gas flowing, hyperventilate, exhale completely, pull the bag down into place, and breathe deep. That's all. It got me used to the process without wasting gas, and established the process in a sort of muscle-memory.
I don't think anything truly prepared me for the actual experience, though. The hiss of the gas flowing through the tube is surprisingly loud --I suspect adrenaline made all my senses hyperacute-- and if I were to do it again I might have music playing through earbuds. I was shocked by how difficult it is, despite drills and mental preparation, to overcome the stress and breathe slow and deep --it ended up being virtually impossible for me. Yes, it is painless. It isn't even especially unpleasant in and of itself --the gas doesn't smell funny, the bag isn't noisy (the N2 holds it tightly inflated so that it doesn't rustle), it isn't claustrophobic. When I began to black out, there was no physical discomfort at all --no headache, no chest pain, it was as physically gentle as all accounts suggest.
But it isn't stress-free, and there's plenty of time to subconsciously acknowledge what you're attempting and for survival instinct to kick in. I don't think any practice would overcome that.
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
I wish I had a partner during trial runs.
I would like to take it all the way to unconsciousness,
then have my partner pull off the bag, while timing how long it took.
I'd like to do that two or three times on different days, to insure all goes well.
Then I'd go solo for showtime.
I just don't want to end up a vegetable, and a burden to society.
how does one become a vegetable if the eb method fails?
Just like with hanging, hypoxia can cause brain damage. If there's enough gas to knock you out, but your supply doesn't last long enough to kill you --or if you're interrupted-- there's a chance you could be left with permanent brain damage.
Thank you for the explanation. Assuming no interruption, I understand 40 minutes at 15 lpm with a full tank of Nitrogen will do the trick.
color_me_gone
Sun is rising
- Dec 27, 2018
- 970
Starved of oxygen, cells in your body begin to die, everywhere, including the brain.
Within a couple of minutes after you become unconscious, a significant amount of brain damage has already occurred.
However, the body does not die completely until 28 to 40 minutes after unconsciousness.
If, for some reason, the flow was interrupted, the bag disturbed, the hose kicked off, whatever, and the body were to start receiving oxygen again, you could live, but be anywhere from mildly to severely brain damaged, ie: vegetable.
