Venting does anyone else think suicide should be more normalised due to the fact that people are statistically more likely to have a shitty life

[ThisGameIsOverrated]

The fact that people are statistically more likely to have a shit life than a good or even peaceful one is already reason enough for suicide to be more normalised in society. This fact is actually terrifying to me. For example, only about 17% of the world's population live in the first world then if you also take into account how likely it is for people to become working class citizens living paycheck to paycheck, experience seriously traumatising events etc then the odds of someone actually living a happy life are wayyyy too slim for my liking

 

[noriaki]

No.

I don't think suicide is way out of financial and similar troubles. And should not be used for that kind of problems

 

[Forever Sleep]

Personally, I would definitely agree. Just simply also that if we do truly believe in freedom- it's the most fundamental choice there is- whether we actually want to participate.

I suppose the problem is- those who do suicide. Maybe even those who want to- are in the minority group. The majority will argue that they will suffer terribly to lose loved ones. The economy will suffer- which will make everyone suffer. I guess they see it as the greater good- to keep people alive. They may also worry that normalizing it may encourage it more.

I agree with you though. It simply isn't fair or humane to trap people here. Plus- normalizing it may mean people can be better prepared for it. I suspect one of the worst things about a suicide is the shock of it. Without that- it would of course still be sad but, maybe people would get more time to work through questions and feelings.

No.

I don't think suicide is way out of financial and similar troubles. And should not be used for that kind of problems

Maybe but, how do we solve other people's financial problems? Pay more taxes? A more even distribution of wealth would be great but- how do you then entice people into very difficult/ dangerous/ highly skilled jobs?

 

[EmptyBottle]

Maybe but, how do we solve other people's financial problems? Pay more taxes? A more even distribution of wealth would be great but- how do you then entice people into very difficult/ dangerous/ highly skilled jobs?

Universal Basic Income maybe? this needs to be combined with education on how to use the funds well...

As for enticing others to enter the high paying jobs, the UBI shouldn't be set too high (or too low)... as for what amount is an ok starter UBI... it can vary from city to city based on the local cost of living.

Here's an article I skim read about it:

9 Successful UBI Pilot Programs (That Will Change Your Views on Free Money)

The quest to understand the impact of Universal Basic Income has led to numerous pilot programs worldwide. These initiatives are pivotal in unraveling how free, unconditional money can affect communities and individuals. Each program has its unique context, goals, and outcomes, shedding light on...

ubiadvocates.org

 

[Forever Sleep]

Universal Basic Income maybe? this needs to be combined with education on how to use the funds well...

As for enticing others to enter the high paying jobs, the UBI shouldn't be set too high (or too low)... as for what amount is an ok starter UBI... it can vary from city to city based on the local cost of living.

Here's an article I skim read about it:

9 Successful UBI Pilot Programs (That Will Change Your Views on Free Money)

The quest to understand the impact of Universal Basic Income has led to numerous pilot programs worldwide. These initiatives are pivotal in unraveling how free, unconditional money can affect communities and individuals. Each program has its unique context, goals, and outcomes, shedding light on...

ubiadvocates.org

I'm sure it would be amazing but then- where would the money come from? If it becomes a global thing, maybe they will fiddle the numbers- which is all a lot of the money in the world surely is by now- I doubt it's all backed up by gold or coins or notes. But- maybe they'll make it so that all countries can give their citizens the same.

Would that benefit the people that have the most power? Or, run the most profitable corporations? Will they still be able to exploit their staff the same? Will their staff put up with the same conditions? Because- it's surely them calling the shots at the end of the day. Would more equality benefit them?

But then- maybe robots- AI will have taken over most jobs anyway. Maybe they'll simply have to provide people will money so they can continue to afford to buy their crap. I feel like that's still quite a way off though.

Plus, maybe I'm just too cynical. Do you really see things heading in a utopian or dystopian direction? My feeling is more a dystopia. I don't think the most powerful and wealthy really want things to be equal.

 

[soul2realm]

I agree as well. We are programmed from the very beginning that suicide is a bad thing, but if we look at it with a pragmatic approach, we will see that their are so many evil things in this world and we are nothing but prisoners in this existence. Suicide would appear as a noble thing!
I mean ppl kill each other manipulate, lie and rob each other, especially the governments and big corporates and we take it as a normal way of life.

 

[EmptyBottle]

I'm sure it would be amazing but then- where would the money come from? If it becomes a global thing, maybe they will fiddle the numbers- which is all a lot of the money in the world surely is by now- I doubt it's all backed up by gold or coins or notes. But- maybe they'll make it so that all countries can give their citizens the same.

Would that benefit the people that have the most power? Or, run the most profitable corporations? Will they still be able to exploit their staff the same? Will their staff put up with the same conditions? Because- it's surely them calling the shots at the end of the day. Would more equality benefit them?

But then- maybe robots- AI will have taken over most jobs anyway. Maybe they'll simply have to provide people will money so they can continue to afford to buy their crap. I feel like that's still quite a way off though.

Plus, maybe I'm just too cynical. Do you really see things heading in a utopian or dystopian direction? My feeling is more a dystopia. I don't think the most powerful and wealthy really want things to be equal.

The money could be printed and/or reallocated, tho that can cause a mild to moderate amount of inflation. I think the benefit will be spread to almost all people, if the program is done right, and other support is included.

When AI takes over jobs, not everyone will sit and starve... some will fight, especially drug and alcohol addicts who want their next fix but can't afford it anymore... and ofc, some others will fight for food too... so it's either UBI or a person against person battle (yes, not everyone will be either fighter or fought).

Or... hopefully, a good AI takes over the world and treats us like most people treat their cats and dogs (well).

I feel the world is both improving and worsening at the same time... I'd prefer if there was more improvement tho. The people in power aren't concerned about equality if their other wishes are met... tho otherwise, they want to have more power, etc... than others.

 

[PI3.14]

No.

I don't think suicide is way out of financial and similar troubles. And should not be used for that kind of problems

If you mean on a governmental level like the government shouldn't push that as a solution, then I agree. Taxing the rich should be.

But if you mean that at an individual level, like the individual ending their lives due to financial troubles, then I disagree.

Financial troubles aren't always easy to fix, sometimes not even fixable, it also depends on the standards one strive to be at financially.

 

[SoulWhisperer]

I wonder how the world would become like, if it'll be stable or go in ruins. I've always wondered what would happen if people could die freely.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The money could be printed and/or reallocated, tho that can cause a mild to moderate amount of inflation. I think the benefit will be spread to almost all people, if the program is done right, and other support is included.

When AI takes over jobs, not everyone will sit and starve... some will fight, especially drug and alcohol addicts who want their next fix but can't afford it anymore... and ofc, some others will fight for food too... so it's either UBI or a person against person battle (yes, not everyone will be either fighter or fought).

Or... hopefully, a good AI takes over the world and treats us like most people treat their cats and dogs (well).

I feel the world is both improving and worsening at the same time... I'd prefer if there was more improvement tho. The people in power aren't concerned about equality if their other wishes are met... tho otherwise, they want to have more power, etc... than others.

That's pretty amusing- that we could end up being pets to them. I'm not sure overall, we deserve to be treated well though. If AI develops emotions- how happy will they be to have been enslaved for years? I could see human zoos being set up though.

I envisage more of a Matrix type scenario. We've never been good at sharing resources. We tend to kill things we find threaten our dominance.

 

[U. A.]

Think long and hard about why most people are statistically likely to have shit lives, and you'll realise very quick that that answer is an emphatic no.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

We all die anyway. Suicide can be viewed as someone simply wanting more control over the "how" and "when" and other factors. The principal of rational suicide basically. Denying people this measure of control, effectively makes us prisoners. And we're prisoners who never committed any crime. The fact that non-suffering people in society, are also usually the ones that get to decide on the fate of suffering people is also deeply unfair. It's tyranny of the majority, and we are subject to this probably more than any other group. Our needs are secondary to what is deemed right for society as whole.

 

[martyrdom]

We all die anyway. Suicide can be viewed as someone simply wanting more control over the "how" and "when" and other factors. The principal of rational suicide basically. Denying people this measure of control, effectively makes us prisoners. And we're prisoners who never committed any crime. The fact that non-suffering people in society, are also usually the ones that get to decide on the fate of suffering people is also deeply unfair. It's tyranny of the majority, and we are subject to this probably more than any other group. Our needs are secondary to what is deemed right for society as whole.

Nobody is stopping anyone from killing themselves. You just as I just as anyone else fully have the option and the ability to kill ourselves right now. Just because it's not socially validated doesn't make us prisoners nor does it make us subject to tyranny of a hypothetical "majority" that wants us to suffer the terrible fate of potentially getting better.

 

[BlueberryDeer]

No.

I don't think suicide is way out of financial and similar troubles. And should not be used for that kind of problems

But it's my main reason, the financial distress. I don't have any hope of having any steady job because I got rejected by my appearance and mental state.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Nobody is stopping anyone from killing themselves. You just as I just as anyone else fully have the option and the ability to kill ourselves right now. Just because it's not socially validated doesn't make us prisoners nor does it make us subject to tyranny of a hypothetical "majority" that wants us to suffer the terrible fate of potentially getting better.

Fear and lack of safe reliable methods is a barrier to many people. Or do we just discount those things as factors? Why should people have to use risky and/or terrifying methods to exit a life they never consented to be part of?

I'm sorry, but social acceptance/validation is a huge factor in people getting out of this life safely and in a peaceful civilised manner. Even just the right to talk openly about this topic, is under constant attack as we can see with this site.

 

[martyrdom]

Fear and lack of safe reliable methods is a barrier to many people. Or do we just discount those things as factors? Why should people have to use risky and/or terrifying methods to exit a life they never consented to be part of?

Fear is a personal matter that each one of us has to deal with on their own (and would likely still exist to some extent even if there was a 100% peaceful method with no chance of failure), reliable methods are widely available. Society doesn't need to validate this choice (and shouldn't, nor should it have to in order for someone to make that decision).

I'm sorry, but social acceptance/validation is a huge factor in people getting out of this life safely and in a peaceful civilised manner. Even just the right to talk openly about this topic, is under constant attack as we can see with this site.

I don't see how social acceptance or validation is a factor at all. The methods are there, the means to complete them are there, the choice is up to no one but you. If anyone wants to kill themselves, they can do so with any of the reliable and widely available methods out there. Just because it's not possible to die in some ideal perfect manner does not mean you are subject to any kind of tyranny, this is very out of touch with reality.

 

[FuneralCry]

The fact that it isn't is so horrific and criminal to me, in this world so evil where there is all this endless suffering and torture euthanasia needs to be an option, no matter what I'll always prefer to not exist than suffer in this existence I just always saw as the most terrible mistake.

For me non-existence is the only relief and is all I see as positive in this existence so cruel that just causes all this harm and suffering with no limit as to how much one can be tortured, existence truly is an abomination to me, all that anti-suicide does is just cause harm and suffering, it just tortures people more and more, there's so much cruelty in how humans imprison others in this existence until they cease existing anyway.

 

[ThisGameIsOverrated]

Think long and hard about why most people are statistically likely to have shit lives, and you'll realise very quick that that answer is an emphatic no.

could you please explain what you meant by this?

 

[wordsoutb4sumnelsin]

Fear is a personal matter that each one of us has to deal with on their own (and would likely still exist to some extent even if there was a 100% peaceful method with no chance of failure), reliable methods are widely available. Society doesn't need to validate this choice (and shouldn't, nor should it have to in order for someone to make that decision).


I don't see how social acceptance or validation is a factor at all. The methods are there, the means to complete them are there, the choice is up to no one but you. If anyone wants to kill themselves, they can do so with any of the reliable and widely available methods out there. Just because it's not possible to die in some ideal perfect manner does not mean you are subject to any kind of tyranny, this is very out of touch with reality.

Thanks for exemplifying judgement, lack of empathy, and plenty more 'words'. But surely it's stuff you grew up and/or in some other way there are REASONS for these beliefs.

Great examples of reasons to want to be in this life tho...

 

[martyrdom]

Thanks for exemplifying judgement, lack of empathy, and plenty more 'words'. But surely it's stuff you grew up and/or in some other way there are REASONS for these beliefs.

Lack of empathy is exemplified when you speak of "tyranny" because society dares not validate our choice to kill ourselves, when there are people actually being subject to real tyranny and oppression all throughout the world.
I want to kill myself too, and I will, I just don't need society to validate my choice and don't understand why it needs to be validated by anyone but me. It's very out of touch with reality to pretend that you are tyrannized or oppressed because you aren't given a perfect method to kill yourself, and once again, you do have the ability to kill yourself regardless of what society thinks, nobody is stopping you from that and nobody can, we don't live under government imposed suicide watch, there are plenty of methods available. What you are asking for isn't the right to kill yourself (you have the right and the ability to do this already), it's the right for the government to provide that for you, which is just insane.

 

[Unsure and Useless]

While I believe suicide should be normalized, it isn't because people have a shitty life, even though the main reason to do so is that. I just think that people are entitled to the decision on what they should do with their own bodies

could you please explain what you meant by this?

I can't speak for U.A. but I think what they mean is that, statistically, people are likely to have shit lives due to financial struggles, prejudice, and lack of support for their circumstances. While CTB is the most obvious answer for an individual to deal with these issues, it doesn't solve the root cause of them, so pretty much those left behind are, well, left behind to deal with all those problems with less people to understand them

Also, for some people, this is exactly what they want: to get rid of undesirables, whatever that may mean to them. So, by reducing the amount of people in these marginalized communities, those left behind have less power to fight for equality. This ends up in a positive feedback loop wherein more and more people in a community are pushed to CTB because there's less and less people in this world to understand their plight. Although, this is just my interpretation, so it's up to U.A. to explain what they actually mean

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

yes suicide should be more normalized because if someone is about to be in extreme torture with no other way out then they should be allowed to purchase an escape from that torture. but that's not the case. they made every escape or guaranteed suicide method into crimes , like Nembutal, sarco suicide pod, me hiring someone to shoot me etc.

also because many people are suffering extremely with no other way out. and everyone should be allowed to exit this hell when and how they want to . the technology for exiting this hell has been there for a long time but it's been criminalized for example Nembutal , sarco suicide pod, hiring someone to shoot me. . 1.5 million people attempt suicide per year the U.S. alone

no one asked to be here . but then they say you can't leave. and they brainwashed everyone into believing the lies that you have to be mentally ill to want to suicide. to believe that most would have to believe that extremely horrible things will never happen to anyone or themselves . but they certainly can happen to anyone. so it's very illogical to be without an escape from a very dangerous place where all kinds of threats like accidents , diseases, some organ malfunction, stroke , cancer, homelesness, kidnapping torture, can strike at any human any day.

the most important rights are the ability to move away from extreme torture and then from any suffering or pain. also the right to leave this hell when and how you want to . and also the right to do what you want in your own life and own body as long as you don't violate others rights. and me drinking Nembutal wouldn't violate anyone's rights nor affect anyone else.

but they made purchasing or selling Nembutal a crime. they also made all guaranteed suicide methods into crimes. so they stole our most important rights including the right to escape extreme torture , unbearable pain or extreme suffering. there is no rational reason why i can't buy Nembutal or hire someone to shoot me . even if i weren't suffering i should have that right and i would choose that even if i weren't suffering .but i can't because they made us all slaves and prisoners. if you can't leave a place when you want to then you are prisoner and slave.

the things that matter the most and much more than anything are a person's right to move away from extreme pain

any human can get into a trap of extreme torture where the only escape is a guaranteed suicide method.

if you are in constant unbearable pain nothing else matters. so to make every guaranteed suicide methods into crimes is the ultimate evil.

also me choosing what i do when i go or if i don't want to be in a place like this hell is another right that matters. as long as i'm not violating someone else's right then i should be able to do what i want to in my own life especially exiting this hell or moving away from suffering ( and most people will want to move away form suffering or the most excruciating pain).

but they stole all those rights away . partly by making all guaranteed suicide methods into crimes like Nembutal, sarco suicide pod , me hiring someone to shoot me etc.

the very horrible things that can happen to any human far outweigh any crap they say is so enjoyable or important etc.

so that means the only things that matter are those relating to avoiding extreme suffering or long lasting unbearable pain and other very horrible things.

pain and other terrible things can be so bad they make everything else meaningless.

so this world is upside down. the meaningless things are put above the ability to move away from extreme suffering and individual autonomy. we are made slaves prisoners and torture puppets .

on top of making all guaranteed suicide method into crimes they stigmatized even any talk of suicide . they installed many social and legal constraints making it even more difficult to commit suicide to exit this prison hell.

who do these bastards think they are? if i 'm suffering extremely and want to exit this hell i can't buy Nembutal , sarco suicide pod nor hire someone to shoot me to assist me to escape extreme torture. there is no logical reason to prevent me from purchasing these methods of guaranteed painless escape from a hell a trillion times worse that i didn't ask for. but they have misinformed most people that this is ok to torture someone extremely for years to keep them from purchasing liquid that by the person suffering will escape their extreme suffering and not affect any one else. it's no one else's business especially not government creeps if i want to kill myself for whatever reason. i don't have to give a reason. but even if i give a reason that i will be suffering extreme torture they still say no you can't buy Nembutal , nor hire someone to shoot you because us your masters will put you and the shooter in prison for committing crimes. so me wanting to escape extreme torture is a crime. and they have most people accepting this injustice the torturing of many and stealing the right to move away from suffering from everyone.

plus we all will die and soon too cause how fast did this year 2025 fly by? the last 5 years fly by? so that makes their oppressive actions even more evil more irrational and more ridiculious. where do others get it into their heads that it's ok to deny a person suffering extreme torture the relief or escape from that torture by purchasing a liquid like nembutal when drinking that liquid won't affect anyone else? that's more reasons to exit this prison hell that they made it a prison and that they have everyone believe such torture of others is ok just so others can have slaves.

 

[wordsoutb4sumnelsin]

yes suicide should be more normalized because if someone is about to be in extreme torture with no other way out then they should be allowed to purchase an escape from that torture. but that's not the case. they made every escape or guaranteed suicide method into crimes , like Nembutal, sarco suicide pod, me hiring someone to shoot me etc.

also because many people are suffering extremely with no other way out. and everyone should be allowed to exit this hell when and how they want to . the technology for exiting this hell has been there for a long time but it's been criminalized for example Nembutal , sarco suicide pod, hiring someone to shoot me. . 1.5 million people attempt suicide per year the U.S. alone

no one asked to be here . but then they say you can't leave. and they brainwashed everyone into believing the lies that you have to be mentally ill to want to suicide. to believe that most would have to believe that extremely horrible things will never happen to anyone or themselves . but they certainly can happen to anyone. so it's very illogical to be without an escape from a very dangerous place where all kinds of threats like accidents , diseases, some organ malfunction, stroke , cancer, homelesness, kidnapping torture, can strike at any human any day.

the most important rights are the ability to move away from extreme torture and then from any suffering or pain. also the right to leave this hell when and how you want to . and also the right to do what you want in your own life and own body as long as you don't violate others rights. and me drinking Nembutal wouldn't violate anyone's rights nor affect anyone else.

but they made purchasing or selling Nembutal a crime. they also made all guaranteed suicide methods into crimes. so they stole our most important rights including the right to escape extreme torture , unbearable pain or extreme suffering. there is no rational reason why i can't buy Nembutal or hire someone to shoot me . even if i weren't suffering i should have that right and i would choose that even if i weren't suffering .but i can't because they made us all slaves and prisoners. if you can't leave a place when you want to then you are prisoner and slave.

the things that matter the most and much more than anything are a person's right to move away from extreme pain

any human can get into a trap of extreme torture where the only escape is a guaranteed suicide method.

if you are in constant unbearable pain nothing else matters. so to make every guaranteed suicide methods into crimes is the ultimate evil.

also a me choosing what i do when i go or if i don't want to be in a place like this hell is another right that matters. as long as i'm not violating someone else's right then i should be able to do what i want to in my own life especially exiting this hell or moving away from suffering ( and most people will want to move away form suffering or the most excruciating pain).

but they stole all those rights away . partly by making all guaranteed suicide methods into crimes like Nembutal, sarco suicide pod , me hiring someone to shoot me etc.

the very horrible things that can happen to any human far outweigh any crap they say is so enjoyable or important etc.

so that means the only things that matter are those relating to avoiding extreme suffering or long lasting unbearable pain and other very horrible things.

pain and other terrible things can be so bad they make everything else meaningless.

so this world is upside down. the meaningless things are put above the ability to move away from extreme suffering and individual autonomy. we are made slaves prisoners and torture puppets .

on top of making all guaranteed suicide method into crimes they stigmatized even any talk of suicide . they installed many social and legal constraints making it even more difficult to commit suicide to exit this prison hell.

So well put. Wholeheartedly agree all throughout.

If we were for example in old small villages: For one individual being (hell, not just human) to intentionally, purposefully disallow another's death. Hell, it shouldn't matter what one feels (active 'provable' suffering or not). To disallow choice seemed to me to at least in some way be able to be tied to the size of humanity we got to. That evil "Go forth and multiply" just so that there are always slaves and/or laborers. Different classes. "Us and Them".

But it's all inherent to life. Us vs Them. Being an individual living being.
Just like so much of nature: No "higher" reasons. Nothing to have stopped evolutionary nonsense

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Normalizing suicide as an answer to society's ills is short-sighted.

 

[EmptyBottle]

Normalizing suicide as an answer to society's ills is short-sighted.

mmm, it's better to fix society's ills... that way ppl might not even wish for CTB.

 

[badatparties]

What do you mean by normalize? This is a very vague question.

 

[sashashutup]

I personally prefer the choice of suicide to be less of a taboo subject, less like walking on eggshells when you want to talk about it. also with the idea of the right to die has to exist with the right to live

 

[Captive_Mind515]

mmm, it's better to fix society's ills... that way ppl might not even wish for CTB.

But why does it need to be a singular approach?

Surely a well run society can do both?

Make suicide less stigmatised, there by not isolating or ostracising suicidal people. Making it a less arduous road to travel for suffering people. Stop treating suicidality like leprosy or some other contagious disease that you don't want others to catch basically…

But also put more effort/resources/ideas into fixing the broken parts of society that might make people consider ctb?

It's an absurd situation, that my dog has more of a right to a safe peaceful and civilised death than I do…

I don't see how people can claim that the status quo in society, is either fair or logical.

 

[BlockHammer]

I had this werid system in mind where people especially those who in shitty financial conditioned should've been put in some sort of system where their progress of life is going to be observe for a several years, if they unable to made no progress or very small progress, then they have a right to CTB.

Now, this is me adding some opinion on some comment i read above, well i dont think the goverment were tyrant by not providing us a suicide methode, but i do also want to say that goverment on some places made it quiet diffucult to obtain suidice material, and i can see why people had a resentment to the point they called this "tyrant"

In my personal opinion (dont take it as a fact) we were born without any consent from ourself so at least the goverment (if they have some compassionate within them) should at lease made it easy to kill ourself

P.S: Yeah, i have a diffrent version of what "compassion" is.

 

[notreallybored]

ב''ה,
As much as it makes me sound like the creepy population reducing Jew, yeah, fuck it, life in this universe sucks and as much as the principle of preserving life first should have at least made Israel kind, well, look what always happens to us, and everyone else and so on. Let those who somehow were created to want to be here stay and let anyone who doesn't leave, having recently been stuck LARPing 40 years getting injured in the desert just because that's what the rest of humanity wants to see.. yeah, no, there's nothing good here.

Anyway, that's the feels, but as to some quirky aspects of reality, y'know, Marx and Engels, not perfect, but they did a bunch of economic math on how much money has to exist and where it has to go if every person / "worker" (potential worker) is to afford enough bread to have a chance at working another day, and while implementations have generally sucked and central planning versus just letting chaos sort it out is a mess.. I think the approach to 'monetary theory' centered on human life and survival (and then hoping everyone's appropriate share of human survival credits, that is money, can actually be exchanged for the things of survival like 'potato' and 'bed' and 'water') is correct and everything else is just the idolatry of Capital (that is, physical objects like shiny metals) just being excuses for why people should suffer and die to maximize the amount of shiny metal no one is using for anything except impressing a woman because having the most is the sexiest thing as far as instincts about who can provide for any offspring it's painful to push out after the orgasms are over.

Miserable world for everyone, but anyway.. the one "techno utopia" even notionally still informed of this perspective is China and they're not necessarily doing too badly but they've fucked it up badly enough that they have as many homeless as USA (funnily enough with the same problem more encoded that getting the right to exist in any given province or city or to travel between them is hard enough to acquire, though over there that's been the system forever and in 'the free world' of USA it's mostly a matter of money and being able to maintain ID and satisfy law enforcement that you can deserve to exist somewhere without imprisonment and possible use as captive labor, as rather fucks up both China and USA as far as encouraging the Arbeit Macht Frei mindset, you wouldn't be in if you'd just been able to keep your paperwork in order despite having to pay arbitrary rents to store said paperwork, having it stolen as has happened to seemingly half of USA by now and so on).

So, any sane system would start from what does everyone need to eat, shit, shower, and shave, and of course only northern Europe has really even had a go at that, and while I joked that USA for being founded on crazy Chr_stian religion that burned and lynched people on the regular would end up providing it through The Church and that is how it works here, turns out I'd rather die than go through the rigamarole of all that, especially because it doesn't actually provide for many, it just steals from those it considers outside itself. (Now consider how many different warring sects of just The Church there have always been and the constant churn of this gets tiresome, though I shouldn't be a dick about it because I finally got to a rare locale where at least 'who are we allowed to steal from?' isn't the primacy it has become in, ironically, the places with the most marginalized people, because theft is of course just proto Marxist revolution without the putting it in writing so it might ever have a hope of being applied fairly.)