Discussion Do you truly believe in complete recovery?

[Twistedliesinside]

I haven't stopped feeling a desire for death since I first experienced it. Some other perspectives would be really helpful. My personal life experiences have skewed towards seeing too many suicides, or "recovering" without true freedom from suffering from the initial root cause.

I would like to believe it's possible to overcome, without it becoming an essential part of one's identity to consistently remain "recovered". I guess in that sense I have made recovery a part of my identity as a strategy for myself, but I can't really make it through 24 hours without returning to pessimistic thinking.

All thoughts are welcome. I'll be doing a speech about life for work in a couple of weeks. It's my job to be transparent about my lived experience. So, I would appreciate any input, especially if I could try to genuinely see things with a hopeful light to impart upon others.

Maybe, the answer is just that there is never any light without the darkness it illuminates. Although, I'm really just contemplating whether somebody who experiences suicidal ideation could "return" to a state of existence comparable to somebody that has never wanted to die. I've not seen this truly happen personally, therefore my answer is that I believe in the state of recovery, but not the absolute state of recovered.

 

[deadofdespair]

For some, yes. For me? No. I was born with a defective brain. I have always been suicidal.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

How can you be so sure others are capable of this? I think so many people are good at pretending. And do you experience any moments of relief, or just the desire for life to end and no other emotion?

 

[deadofdespair]

How can you be so sure others are capable of this? I think so many people are good at pretending. And do you experience any moments of relief, or just the desire for life to end and no other emotion?

Sometimes I go durations without actively wanting to die, but it's always in the back of my mind.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

Well, I certainly hope that those moments provide you with a wide range of emotions that allow you to appreciate the person you are. I probably appreciate the worst things about myself to be honest, but I hope to tie more of my identity to other things. I'm conscious to not view things as just black and white or good and bad though.

For some, yes. For me? No. I was born with a defective brain. I have always been suicidal.

I still find it interesting to see you express such optimism for others, but none for yourself.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

"No, I believe suffering can only be minimised, not cured" was the vote I picked.

Only reason why is because, even if you deal with one problem that makes you suicidal and recover from it, another problem will come, and then another, and another. The way life is, the problems never stop coming, and sometimes they just pile on top of you before you can even find solutions to all of them. The reason I have always wanted to die has never been JUST ONE problem at a time, but an accumulation of problems that I don't have solutions for, only to have new problems piled on top of them, making me more miserable.

Recovery is only temporary, and even though it can be nice while it lasts, it won't last forever. Eventually you WILL run into a problem you can't ever recover from and it will be the thing that kills you in the end, whether you die by suicide or not. It could be an illness, an accident, or some kind of other trauma that causes you a permanent injury, physically or mentally. I don't believe in complete recovery at all, because to do so would mean nothing could ever kill you and you would have to be happy at all times, which is just not possible.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

"No, I believe suffering can only be minimised, not cured" was the vote I picked.

Only reason why is because, even if you deal with one problem that makes you suicidal and recover from it, another problem will come, and then another, and another. The way life is, the problems never stop coming, and sometimes they just pile on top of you before you can even find solutions to all of them. The reason I have always wanted to die has never been JUST ONE problem at a time, but an accumulation of problems that I don't have solutions for, only to have new problems piled on top of them, making me more miserable.

Recovery is only temporary, and even though it can be nice while it lasts, it won't last forever. Eventually you WILL run into a problem you can't ever recover from and it will be the thing that kills you in the end, whether you die by suicide or not. It could be an illness, an accident, or some kind of other trauma that causes you a permanent injury, physically or mentally. I don't believe in complete recovery at all, because to do so would mean nothing could ever kill you and you would have to be happy at all times, which is just not possible.

That's interesting. The same one I agree with, but in my experience it's just mainly the inability to overcome the most serious trauma that makes me feel this way. Other problems can just seem amusing in comparison, but I'm numb to so many things, so if something can cause me harm that's interesting too.

I define complete recovery as somebody without any desire to die, nothing to do with a state of constant happiness. I definitely don't seek only happiness in life, I'm sure I would get sick of any single state of being anyway.

With that said, I don't think I would be myself if I completely recovered, therefore I may not want to recover completely. It's just a generalised assumption that people want complete recovery for some sort of hope. Although I think it's much better to focus on helping others accept and want to be who they really are, despite all the pain, such is the human experience right. Thanks, that just helped me reframe part of my focus haha.

 

[hurts2b]

I've definitely had periods of complete recovery from suicidal thoughts. I don't think full lifetime recovery from wanting to die is realistic for me.

But it's definitely possible to stop wanting to die. At least for some amount of time.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

I've definitely had periods of complete recovery from suicidal thoughts. I don't think full lifetime recovery from wanting to die is realistic for me.

But it's definitely possible to stop wanting to die. At least for some amount of time.

I guess the reasons to live must continue to outweigh the reasons to die. Difficult though if it becomes impossible to overcome reasons for death, whilst reasons for life require consistency. That's really encouraging that you've had periods of complete recovery.

How long was the longest period you had without suicidal thoughts?

 

[never mind me]

I voted "I experienced periods of no suicidal thoughts" and these periods were quite long, often months to several years at a time broken with days to weeks of mild suicidal ideation, but without any serious intent to ctb. So for the biggest part of the last 15 years I was quite content with my life. This summer was the first time I seriously considered ctb again since 2009, although for completely different reasons .

 

[throwawaygirl]

I think some people can fully recover and I've known friends in the past that have. Unfortunately I don't think I'm one of those people, Ive tried pretty much everything to feel better, and been in therapy for 2 decades. I can confidently say nothings helped me personally, not even marginally.

 

[hughmun9]

I don't know. But I don't think recovery has to be complete for it to be worthwhile

 

[post_card]

Now i am feeling good, but I just can't shake off the feeling that I am acting fake. Living life seems fake to me. If I step back from the idea of suicide, I feel like I am betraying myself, since we are all gonna die either way so why bother with life really?
I don't really know how to explain this properly. I am stuck between wanting to live and experience life but at the same time I know that the death will come, so why shouldn't I just finish things on my own rules. Every time I do something that I truly enjoy, there is this slight feeling of dread at the back of my head. Something inside me tells me to resign. And that resignment seems to be my very true nature. All the while I am running from that true nature of mine. And I am not sure that I will ever be able to silence that voice.
Therefore for me there is no recovery from suicidal thoughts. It's just distractions that help me forget about killing myself really. But I will never forget. I am stained.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

I think some people can fully recover and I've known friends in the past that have. Unfortunately I don't think I'm one of those people, Ive tried pretty much everything to feel better, and been in therapy for 2 decades. I can confidently say nothings helped me personally, not even marginally.

Massive credit to you for giving everything your best. What do you think has been different about the friends that have been able to recover?

 

[CuriousAboutThis]

I believe some people might be able to be recovered, but as for myself I feel like I am trying to recover yet I don't think I can truly recover to the point where I am happy with where I am at.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

I don't know. But I don't think recovery has to be complete for it to be worthwhile

I think I agree. I can't imagine recognising or even respecting myself if I didn't view the entire world through the lens I do. That may make it impossible to be recovered, but I continue to battle and recover. Some days I'm losing the battle, other days I feel some sense of satisfaction for just trying to fight. The best days are when I feel I've made a difference, no matter how small.

 

[throwawaygirl]

Massive credit to you for giving everything your best. What do you think has been different about the friends that have been able to recover?

Im not quite sure how to word it but I think they just had the right support networks at the time, aswell as just kind of growing out of their unhealthy habits. Plus just making better decisions, it feels like Ive just made mistake after mistake compared to them.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

Now i am feeling good, but I just can't shake off the feeling that I am acting fake. Living life seems fake to me. If I step back from the idea of suicide, I feel like I am betraying myself, since we are all gonna die either way so why bother with life really?
I don't really know how to explain this properly. I am stuck between wanting to live and experience life but at the same time I know that the death will come, so why shouldn't I just finish things on my own rules. Every time I do something that I truly enjoy, there is this slight feeling of dread at the back of my head. Something inside me tells me to resign. And that resignment seems to be my very true nature. All the while I am running from that true nature of mine. And I am not sure that I will ever be able to silence that voice.
Therefore for me there is no recovery from suicidal thoughts. It's just distractions that help me forget about killing myself really. But I will never forget. I am stained.

I resonate deeply with your feelings. Also, my identity is deeply tied to my state of mind too, which plays a big part. You don't want to live or die in regret, so be true to yourself. Although, I would consider whether living really does carry less meaning due to its' finality.

Maybe all life is, is distractions. Why do you say you want to live and experience life in the first place? I'm hearing you talk about truly enjoying life, so if it's finality of living that gives you the feeling of dread, you must really value life. I wonder if resignment only seems to be your true nature, many people live and die without an awareness of their true nature.

I believe some people might be able to be recovered, but as for myself I feel like I am trying to recover yet I don't think I can truly recover to the point where I am happy with where I am at.

I feel similarly. It sounds like contentment is your goal? I wonder if I can achieve that myself.

Im not quite sure how to word it but I think they just had the right support networks at the time, aswell as just kind of growing out of their unhealthy habits. Plus just making better decisions, it feels like Ive just made mistake after mistake compared to them.

Those two things seem to be central points of focus in recovery. Human connection is a requirement for life, but it needs to be compatible with us. Living without unhealthy coping mechanisms will stop poisoning our bodies and minds.

Personally, I find it hard to make better decisions when it can be hard to connect to the "right" support networks. It seems rare to be able to even converse like this right now with anybody in day to day life. I make it harder for myself because I refuse to assimilate to the type of life we're expected to live that might make most people happy.

There's something different about you, that's likely creating a barrier to making better decisions. We will all continue to make mistakes though, so embrace that.

 

[BooksIsAloneK]

No, or it would have happened by now.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

No, or it would have happened by now.

Why would it have happened by now? And if it could have happened for you by now, what would have been the cause?

 

[BooksIsAloneK]

Because I was in a really good spot for a while and had everything going for me and I still thought about it every day even after 5+ years.

So for me, if it was going to happen it would have happened back then.

Definitely won't be happening anytime in the next 7-10 years now, if ever.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

Because I was in a really good spot for a while and had everything going for me and I still thought about it every day even after 5+ years.

So for me, if it was going to happen it would have happened back then.

Definitely won't be happening anytime in the next 7-10 years now, if ever.

I think the hardest thing anybody can do is related to change, right? Most people will live and die with the same identity, the same life. That's an interesting timeline though. It sounds like you're still allowing for the long-term possibility of transitioning into a new life that could be some form of recovery.

Can you visualise what would need to change for some sort of transition, even over a decade from now? It's impressive to even think that far ahead in my opinion.

 

[BooksIsAloneK]

Surgeries, recovery, working toward some long-term goals, getting financial freedom back after some serious problems + surgery debt. Hard to be happy when you're in too much pain to think clearly.

I think the hardest thing anybody can do is related to change, right? Most people will live and die with the same identity, the same life. That's an interesting timeline though. It sounds like you're still allowing for the long-term possibility of transitioning into a new life that could be some form of recovery.

Can you visualise what would need to change for some sort of transition, even over a decade from now? It's impressive to even think that far ahead in my opinion

 

[Twistedliesinside]

Surgeries, recovery, working toward some long-term goals, getting financial freedom back after some serious problems + surgery debt. Hard to be happy when you're in too much pain to think clearly.

I wish you all the best. I hope your pain can be properly managed. That's become more difficult than it should be in most countries.

 

[NZkiwi]

I haven't stopped feeling a desire for death since I first experienced it. Some other perspectives would be really helpful. My personal life experiences have skewed towards seeing too many suicides, or "recovering" without true freedom from suffering from the initial root cause.

I would like to believe it's possible to overcome, without it becoming an essential part of one's identity to consistently remain "recovered". I guess in that sense I have made recovery a part of my identity as a strategy for myself, but I can't really make it through 24 hours without returning to pessimistic thinking.

All thoughts are welcome. I'll be doing a speech about life for work in a couple of weeks. It's my job to be transparent about my lived experience. So, I would appreciate any input, especially if I could try to genuinely see things with a hopeful light to impart upon others.

Maybe, the answer is just that there is never any light without the darkness it illuminates. Although, I'm really just contemplating whether somebody who experiences suicidal ideation could "return" to a state of existence comparable to somebody that has never wanted to die. I've not seen this truly happen personally, therefore my answer is that I believe in the state of recovery, but not the absolute state of recovered.

I wonder if the bar I set for recovery is too high/impossible

I have to "prove my worth" for me to recover, and for me to keep living
But for others in my life, I extend compassion to them without prejudice

 

[homunculi]

this is actually something i think and talk about a lot! i chose the "No, I believe suffering can only be minimised, not cured" option even though i have had brief stretches of time with no suicidal thoughts/urges. i do not believe in fixed states of being and do not believe that healing and recovery (or suffering, for that matter) are linear with an end point. if we conceptualize recovery as a fixed goal to obtain we are only causing ourselves more harm for when we inevitably hit a low point in our lives. nothing in life is constant. we are always changing even if we don't think we are.

i think about emotional healing similar to how i view the physical healing of a wound (i am covered in scars from multiple surgeries and from myself, intentional and not). the wound will close up and scar over but i can still see the scar and sometimes there's an ache in the scar tissue. some scars fade away, but these are usually more superficial wounds. deeper wounds with bigger thicker scars stick around and continue to hurt every once in a while. these scars are constant reminders that i have to just accept as apart of myself, for better or for worse. i am always going to have them and i am definitely going to acquire more because i need frequent surgery... and i'm clumsy.

to bring it back to suicidal thoughts... i've had 'em for more than half of my life. sometimes they are so constant and overwhelming that i feel as if i cannot function, other times i can treat them like they're coming from an edgy teen who resides in my brain, and ever so rarely i go stretches without having any thoughts or urges at all. what does all of that mean for recovery? am i recovered or am i not? as i've stated, i don't think it's a simple either/or. for me it is better to try to accept that those are just thoughts that i have. maybe one day i'll give in to them, but maybe i won't. at the very least i know that they're my thoughts and i can choose to indulge or ignore as my skills/mental state/desires allow. it's possible to get to a point where things don't bother you as much, but there's always the possibility that something will happen that makes you feel like you're back at step one.

as long as i continue to live i will continue to acquire more scars and more traumas/issues that will trigger the thoughts and urges and all i can do is process and try to do my best to adjust to the ups and downs of life. maybe i can heal/recover from those things, but... maybe i can't.

 

[Twistedliesinside]

I wonder if the bar I set for recovery is too high/impossible

I have to "prove my worth" for me to recover, and for me to keep living
But for others in my life, I extend compassion to them without prejudice

I also hold these double standards for myself in comparison to every other person. I'm trying to gradually rewire my brain to be retrained for self-preservation, love and care.

If I reach a goal, I move the goal posts so nothing is never good enough either. Sounds like perfectionism.

 

[NZkiwi]

I also hold these double standards for myself in comparison to every other person. I'm trying to gradually rewire my brain to be retrained for self-preservation, love and care.

The philisophical question is why do you draw a line between self and non self for compassion?

When you wouldn't do the same for say
Oxygen
Clean water
Wifi (hahaha)

Why is compassional conditional of worth for youself?

 

[Twistedliesinside]

this is actually something i think and talk about a lot! i chose the "No, I believe suffering can only be minimised, not cured" option even though i have had brief stretches of time with no suicidal thoughts/urges. i do not believe in fixed states of being and do not believe that healing and recovery (or suffering, for that matter) are linear with an end point. if we conceptualize recovery as a fixed goal to obtain we are only causing ourselves more harm for when we inevitably hit a low point in our lives. nothing in life is constant. we are always changing even if we don't think we are.

i think about emotional healing similar to how i view the physical healing of a wound (i am covered in scars from multiple surgeries and from myself, intentional and not). the wound will close up and scar over but i can still see the scar and sometimes there's an ache in the scar tissue. some scars fade away, but these are usually more superficial wounds. deeper wounds with bigger thicker scars stick around and continue to hurt every once in a while. these scars are constant reminders that i have to just accept as apart of myself, for better or for worse. i am always going to have them and i am definitely going to acquire more because i need frequent surgery... and i'm clumsy.

to bring it back to suicidal thoughts... i've had 'em for more than half of my life. sometimes they are so constant and overwhelming that i feel as if i cannot function, other times i can treat them like they're coming from an edgy teen who resides in my brain, and ever so rarely i go stretches without having any thoughts or urges at all. what does all of that mean for recovery? am i recovered or am i not? as i've stated, i don't think it's a simple either/or. for me it is better to try to accept that those are just thoughts that i have. maybe one day i'll give in to them, but maybe i won't. at the very least i know that they're my thoughts and i can choose to indulge or ignore as my skills/mental state/desires allow. it's possible to get to a point where things don't bother you as much, but there's always the possibility that something will happen that makes you feel like you're back at step one.

as long as i continue to live i will continue to acquire more scars and more traumas/issues that will trigger the thoughts and urges and all i can do is process and try to do my best to adjust to the ups and downs of life. maybe i can heal/recover from those things, but... maybe i can't.

Really amazing reminder of the human condition. We're wired to make sense of reality in a neat package. So, we have difficulty accepting everything as it is. Nothing will ever be neat, chronological, consistent or necessarily logical or understandable.

I hope we can all learn to love and accept the full spectrum of existence. There's no pleasure without pain after all.

Well said, it sounds like you have a great foundation of recovery, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum currently.

The philisophical question is why do you draw a line between self and non self for compassion?

When you wouldn't do the same for say
Oxygen
Clean water
Wifi (hahaha)

Why is compassional conditional of worth for youself?

I believe this is true for many people, but I can just speak for myself in saying it's been ingrained in me since the day I was born. Everything and everyone in life as I grew up learning the world, is part of the reason for such an unhealthy relationship with my own self-worth.

I feel as though everything I've ever achieved was through being so hard on myself too, which further reinforces it. I'm only just learning to do things out of love and positivity for myself now at age 31. Still, I can't quite let go of these double standards, but I feel the grip loosening very slowly with persistence.

I'm sure there are many factors of nature versus nurture involved. Though, the conditioning of the current world makes the nurture aspect especially brutal to anybody now.

 

[itsgone2]

I'm not smart enough to know but I'll say it's a genetic flaw. I've been suicidal many times. Others have a "you can never give up" attitude.
Although life hardly seems worth it now anyway. The world is incredibly flawed and cruel.