Do you think torture can be justified for example of terrorists?

[noname223]

I followed the news around the Moscow terrorists a lot.

Here is an article about them. https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-attack-moscow-03-25-24/index.html

They tried to flee the country and were caught alive. Which is a major mistake if you do a crime like that in Russia.

They were extremely tortured. In court it was visible how they were tortured. One guy had only one ear left. One guy was braindead they probably cut his penis off. Another guy was raped. Probably all of them were raped also with electroshocks at the testicles and in the butthole. The torture was filmed and shared on Russian social media.

Honestly, please Chancellor of Germany invest more into our military. Bro, if Russia takes over Germany. I will regret I did not die in 2024 so much. They will also do this to innocent civilans.

There was a Russian Youtuber who is against Putin. She said something like you probably don't mind the torture of terrorists. But if they do it to them they will also torture innocent people.

Tbh I think torture cannot be justified. In some cases it might feel right. But we become monsters ourselves if we let something like that happen. Even if there is full proof they were the perpetrators. Of course there should be a just punishment. But human rights count for all humans. These people probably get tortured in the most severe form for the next decades. They probably regretted not dying after the first night. This must be unimaginable.

I have also some doubts in free will. There might be a small part of free decisions. I am not sure. But we are mostly a product of our genes, environment and upbringing.

 

[bankai]

I can't justify it because these people end up grabbing innocent people off the street that they suspect of terrorism and then torture them to get a confession. And yes, they'll get the confession under duress. And it can happen to anyone, even you or me.

 

[Dejected 55]

What is the point of torturing someone?

1. Is it for punishment or revenge? IF so, how does that make you different from them? Capturing dangerous people and sequestering them from general society to protect everyone else always makes sense. Reasonable punishment for their crimes also makes sense. Then you either need to genuinely try and rehabilitate OR conclude that you must keep them locked away forever. In some cases you can justify the death penalty, less as a punishment for the crime and more as a formal final protection of everyone else by removing the danger from society. But anything beyond that, torture, is only done to make you feel good... and if you feel good bringing torture to someone else, maybe you ought to be sequestered from society as well.

2. Have you captured someone you believe has important information that could endanger others? You want to question them for the information. Okay, that makes sense. But torture has proven to be completely unreliable as a means of obtaining useful information. Why? Either they tell you what they think you want to hear to end their torture, and that information may or may not be truthful or useful... OR they tell you nothing because they are trained to withstand it. Again, you're back in the trap of torturing them because you enjoy it on some level and think they deserve it.

It's a lot like the people who cheer prison rape because "if you're in prison you deserve to be raped." Then you try and act like you think rape is horrible when you've clearly admitted that you think sometimes rape is good and justified and earned... and that just means your line in the sand is slightly different from where the rapists is... so how you do condemn rape to send someone to prison when you equally cheer someone else being raped in prison?

I don't even care how this might ruffle some feathers... Anyone who is in favor of torture is not someone I want around me.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's a lot like the people who cheer prison rape because "if you're in prison you deserve to be raped." Then you try and act like you think rape is horrible when you've clearly admitted that you think sometimes rape is good and justified and earned... and that just means your line in the sand is slightly different from where the rapists is... so how you do condemn rape to send someone to prison when you equally cheer someone else being raped in prison?

Sorry for the essay length response...

It's not always the case of course but, some people are more targetted than others in prison I imagine- not necessarily just for rape but, to be attacked. It's often people who have hurt, raped and killed women, children and both. Sometimes in their own family. They anger other people who may have done wrong but who wouldn't hurt children, their families, women. That's not to say it should justify it of course.

I suppose people cheer it on because they see the official judicial system as being too soft on those perpetrators. It's kind of like vigilante justice I suppose.

I'll be brutally honest and admit that there have been cases where I've felt a sense of retribution. One was a guy who was boasting to his cell mate about all the children he'd raped and molested. His cell mate strangled him. I know I shouldn't approve of that but I can't deny that a part of me does in a way.

That isn't a concession to punish all people suspected of something. I also know it isn't a good way to be. I feel that forgiveness and understanding is more positive but- there we go. I'll admit, I'm not a big enough person for that. I do feel hatred towards some offenders. I do want revenge sometimes. I like seeing bullies put in their place for example. I think they do need to be stood up to.

What it comes down to I suppose is the utter horror and terror some of these people have put others through- sometimes totally unchallenged. And really, it goes on to be unchallenged. Not to say they should 'officially' be tortured but sure- I'll admit it. I like the thought that they received some of their own medicine. That they got to experience maybe a tiny slice of the fear that they put (sometimes multiple) others through.

I know there will be the argument that they likely went through shit themselves to become like that but, I don't know. I don't swallow determinism totally. Plenty of people have extremely tough lives. Plenty are tempted to do heinous things- I'm sure. What holds some back and, not others? Besides, if they went through abuse themselves and suffered, why aren't they more empathetic towards the possibility of causing that same pain to others?

Besides, they know it's wrong. If they either try to do the crime in secret or, try to cover their tracks or, plan meticulously how to do something undetected- that demonstrates an awareness they know they are doing wrong.

Not that two wrongs make a right ultimately. Not that it will undo what they did. Or that it will likely reform them or bring peace to the victim's families.

I'll put this out there though... Not that I agree with legalised harsh punishment but- do maybe some paedophiles not offend because they are frightened of what might happen to them in prison? Or, if they become and are revealed as a sex offender? Personally, I'm in favour of things that put would- be offenders off. That's part of why punishment does exist- to demonstrate the consequences to others who are tempted to follow the same path.

Personally though no- I'm very against torture. Like others have said, if it's part of an interregation method, I doubt it yields accurate results. Just morally as well. To legalise brutality seems wrong.

I think in the book: 'Crime and Punishment', it described that in the days of capital punishment, the general population quite often ended up having more sympathy for the criminals. If someone steals a loaf of bread because they are starving, are they entirely to blame? Why can't they afford to eat? Shouldn't society bear some of the brunt when people commit certain offences?

Plus, to effectively give sadists free reign and legitamize that is perverse. Of course, there will be sadists drawn to professions where they are more able to push the boundaries and be cruel. Watching a documentary about the attrocities in race horsing is what finally turned me vegetarian. There was footage inside an abattoir of some guy clearly enjoying the distress he was putting those animals through. Same goes for the attrocities at Guantanamo Bay. When that's discovered though, it needs to be stamped out. Not encouraged.

With regards to terrorism. What grudge are those people acting on? Were their families impacted by a war themselves? Not to justify their actions but, we need to examine what caused them. Some of our own countries have waged illegal and unjustified wars against others. Plus, why was the person so vulnerable to be radicalised to begin with? Why were they (likely) ostracised and so full of hate to begin with?

That said, I'd feel so angry if I witnessed something. To the extent that I would be prepared to kill most likely. That's the worst thing of all I suppose. Many of us aren't that immune to feeling anger and the need to protect/ defend with lethal force and the desire for retribution/ revenge. It's primal I suppose. A group of animals wouldn't tolerate an outsider coming in to attack it. That's always going to be the problem as I see it though. We do often see other groups of people as threatening outsiders.

I don't agree with capital punishment because our legal system is fallible. If it wasn't though. If we 100% knew that each person convicted was guilty then- I truthfully just don't know. I've heard it argued though that even capital punishment isn't necessarily enough of a deterrent so, the whole thing raises multiple questions.

Is it the person's fault to begin with or, does society, parenting etc. need to take some of the brunt? Are all people capable of being reformed? Is capital punishment actually too kind in certain circumstances? Is the harsher punishment for them to live without freedom with the knowledge of what they've done?

 

[Dejected 55]

I think a lot of people confuse what they would do with what they think it should be okay for others to do. For instance...

Not to trigger anyone, but say you are raped. IF you or your significant other or a father/mother, etc. were to severely beat or even kill your rapist. I 100% get that instinct, and as long as there was no doubt that it was your rapist that was beaten/killed, then I would not want to see punishment for the retribution/revenge. Of course you, or your avenger, will have to live with that... and while in the heat of the moment revenge seems and may feel good, realize that living with that later once the emotions die down... might be tougher than you think if you are a good person. Think of all the soldiers who come back after war and having to righteously kill others in the line of duty who struggle with the memories of what they had to do in war.

BUT...

In the same scenario, where you are raped... police catch the rapist and he is convicted and put in jail... and in jail he is beaten by other prisoners and perhaps raped as well. That's a whole different situation. Those aren't close family or friends who felt your pain and in the heat of the moment are avenging your suffering. No, those are other criminals who get off on beating and raping themselves, so even if you have no sympathy for the prisoner in this case, you can't want to cheer that on if you stop and think about it. Torture or punishment like that is not something society should want. It just reinforces the notion that if you can overpower someone else, then do it... and if they are perceived as lesser in the moment, then you get away with it.

Honestly, to a degree this is how police brutality in the US against minorities keeps happening. I don't think, for example, all white cops who assault black people are racists. Some are, to be sure... but I think most of them are just power-tripping, "Respect mah authoritah!" But here's the rub... If you're a corrupt cop and you want to beat someone and get away with it... you know historically and socially in the US that you have a much better chance of getting away with it if you assault a minority than if you assault a white person. So if you're a power-trip cop, you're going to take out your crazy on the people you think society will most likely let you get away with that.

It's society that spins and twists and tries to justify every time we hear of a minority suffering police brutality... but when is the last time you remember anyone trying to twist away a white person getting beaten by a cop? It happens... but when it does, nobody tries to vilify the victim quite so much.

What I'm saying here is... wanting justice and even personal revenge makes sense. It is defensible. But arbitrarily deciding sometimes it is okay for someone else to torture/beat/etc someone that they don't have a personal reason to do so... that is a dark path to wander down, and it makes it so much easier to just decide who "deserves" to be harmed. I don't think we really want to live in a world like that.

For as corrupt as sometimes police can be... they exist primarily because we know how bad it goes when mob justice prevails. People make and support and justify very bad decisions in the heat of the moment when mob justice is in play. We need cooler heads than that.

 

[mirror_mercury]

well yes, if they take human lives

we need more tax payers

 

[princexhhn]

If they can do it to terrorists, they can do it to anyone

 

[RoseGirl]

lets not torture people?
very big waste of time.

 

[Dejected 55]

If they can do it to terrorists, they can do it to anyone

Exactly. Once you decide there can be a line in the sand, the rest of the argument is just determining where you are comfortable with having that line and whether or not it can ever move.

How do they know if you are a terrorist or not unless they interrogate you, after all? And if they torture you to get an answer, that's just part of the process, right? If you're a terrorist then you "deserved" it... if you aren't a terrorist, then you probably did something bad sometime or even if you didn't, they'll give you a $20 and pat you on the back and say "my bad" and it's all fine as long as at least every now and then it pays off, right?

 

[Fish-Holder]

I think it's up to government what they should do with terrorists, everyone hates them so why not torture them? It would be 'interrogation', even if tortures has been recorded and published nothing will happen. But even the worst piece if shit should rot in jail not killed.

 

[Dejected 55]

I think it's up to government what they should do with terrorists, everyone hates them so why not torture them? It would be 'interrogation', even if tortures has been recorded and published nothing will happen. But even the worst piece if shit should rot in jail not killed.

Where does it end? If everyone hates you, can you be tortured as well? I mean, if it is okay for anyone to be tortured, then it must be okay for everyone to be tortured. Torture does not result in reliable information, and it lowers everyone who supports or participates in it to the level of the worst people in humanity.

Also, the winners get to decide what is torture... Had Germany and its allies won WWII, you can bet nobody would be talking about the Holocaust because that would have been written historically as necessary punishment of prisoners by Germany and the winners of the war. It's only because they lost that history reflects the horrors inflicted by them during the war.

Be careful what you wish for, if you think torture is a good idea on any level.

 

[Fish-Holder]

Where does it end? If everyone hates you, can you be tortured as well? I mean, if it is okay for anyone to be tortured, then it must be okay for everyone to be tortured. Torture does not result in reliable information, and it lowers everyone who supports or participates in it to the level of the worst people in humanity.

Also, the winners get to decide what is torture... Had Germany and its allies won WWII, you can bet nobody would be talking about the Holocaust because that would have been written historically as necessary punishment of prisoners by Germany and the winners of the war. It's only because they lost that history reflects the horrors inflicted by them during the war.

Be careful what you wish for, if you think torture is a good idea on any level.

It never ends or it would take a while to stop. Human society development is much worse than technical. Mankind is still young civilization, so there's time for improvement for sure.

Morality is forgotten in case if it's done for revenge, or they followed orders or they're simply sadists. Winners write story indeed.

I don't wish torture to be done on anyone

 

[Dejected 55]

If person A tortures person B... and person C tortures person A to "make it fair" or whatever... person A and now person C are people who enjoy torturing people... and, personally, I'm not going to want either of them around me... and person B, if they survived their torture, isn't going to have a wonderful life just because their torturer was himself tortured.

Think how this plays out in real life too... How many women have been raped, and their boyfriend or husband hunts down and brutally murders the rapist... and those women still have to deal with their having been raped and now also have to deal with their boyfriend/husband who has shown how brutal he can be. I've seen many cases of women who were raped not being able to trust the person who "retaliated" for them either... because it all looks like other people being too easily able to hurt others.

And if you seek the revenge yourself? That rarely works in a way that makes you feel better... not long-term. It's one thing when you are in a fight for your life and it is kill or be killed, you can overcome that spur-of-the-moment instinct to kill to save yourself. But when someone else kills or tortures a person after the fact... that's more of a premeditated thing.

Why do you think, for instance, the old executioner's wore a mask to hide their identity? Everyone thinks they want to see a criminal get his head chopped off, but they also shun the executioner too if they know who he is, because of how they begin to see him as someone who can "easily" do that to someone. Or how in modern executions be it firing squad or lethal injection or electrocution... there are always multiple people so that no individual knows for sure if they were the one who actually killed the criminal. Most people know they can't handle that... and know that other people will judge them for it too... because that is how we are wired.

Torture will not yield anything good and it won't make you feel like you think it will.