Discussion Do you believe in romantic love?

[Zegers]

Do you believe in romantic love or do you think it's all about appearances and so on?

 

[Darkover]

i do believe in love just not true romantic love since most relationships end in heartbreak and feeling betrayed
or that nobody cares for you, i believe most human relationships are a disaster

 

[Kaioowbtm]

Men : will love a woman as long as he find her attractive and feel that he is needed and cared for her.
Women : will only love a man that she believes is the best she can have.

Thats my definition of romantic love.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

No I don't believe in romantic love. It's an illusion addiction imo.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes I do. I'm a romantic at heart. I'm not sure that many people find it though. We are quite a selfish species at heart.

 

[Kerrtu]

I've experienced it.

It's been a while, but it's real and rare.


"Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe"

(I saw that on a t shirt once and liked it very much)



(Had a feeling I had a screenshot of the graphic somewhere )

 

[busybee]

It does but it is pretty overrated. Starts with nervousness and ends with a permanant roommate that is friends with exclusive benefits. Really far from anything the media shows. No big gestures or dancing in the rain. It is way more lowkey. More like Netflix evenings and occasionally going to eat out.

 

[sosoft_sogentle]

no. I was abused by a narc when I last loved.

 

[H.O.Xan]

Men : will love a woman as long as he find her attractive and feel that he is needed and cared for her.
Women : will only love a man that she believes is the best she can have.

Thats my definition of romantic love.

hate the game not the players, they got way more options especially with emergence of tinder etc.

 

[subhuman metalhead]

Do you believe in romantic love or do you think it's all about appearances and so on?

It's definitely a thing. I certainly feel it, just not for a lot of people.

 

[Alltheywanted]

It's like I want to belive in some kind of romantic love, but sadly i have 0 experience.

 

[psp3000]

I don't think that in the current times it is real

romance today seems very superficial, performative, and transactional to me

 

[SexyIncél]

What's "romantic love"? It's actually a peculiar form of love

Some study it, like Martians analyzing one of our varied strains of social organization. I haven't looked at the lit, but what I heard:

• influenced by the Romantic movement around 1800-1850; modified by the modernist movement around 1900
• it's changed. Back in the Romantic movement, you weren't actually supposed to achieve the object of your desires! It's supposed to remain contemplation & fantasy. No, that's a modern notion that would've disturbed them. Maybe we're supposed to be alienated; and our desire for an antidote to alienation might strike them as a form of clinical depression
• those Romantic era guys were nostalgic for distorted bits of medieval traditions, like nowadays people around the world enjoy the nostalgia for themes in US country music

Take for example this statement about modern romantic love: "Romantic love as it occurs in our civilisation, inextricably bound up with ideas of monogamy, exclusiveness, jealousy and undeviating fidelity does not occur in Samoa."

So it's not just "That nice thing that good couples do". No, it has peculiar properties. Such as jealousy. Maybe jealousy partly comes from how we gain social value when people see us being crazily loved. So we get outraged when someone touches our lovers-as-property... it doesn't generate such social value if others get to use it & bear its fruits

So do some people have romantic love? Yes. But less stably than people think. Social relations generally aren't durable; for one thing, they need to be frequently refreshed or they weaken. And institutions like marriage may ironically harm the bonds

---

But suppose we mean "romantic love" to just mean a couple people who care deeply about each other, support each other's needs/desires pretty well, and get transformed into better people. It certainly exists

Unfortunately, we're often not taught to effectively care for each other. Instead, we act like twitchy neurotics after being in prison-like situations: involuntary schooling, workplaces where they have no free speech. With parents who are shit examples

Few get enough free time to understand themselves, and improve

So people are constantly belittling each other & such. Guys neg their girls to gain the upper hand; girls play jealousy games to provoke displays of desire from their guys. All a giant clusterfuck

So I'd think it's rarer than we'd hope

 

[Sad Avocado]

I do belive in romantic love as it because its the reason of why im here

 

[S like suicide]

I do,yes.

 

[AllFoxedOut]

yeah but it isn't for me.

 

[brokeandbroken]

Men : will love a woman as long as he find her attractive and feel that he is needed and cared for her.
Women : will only love a man that she believes is the best she can have.

Thats my definition of romantic love.

To be honest I think there is some truth to this.

hate the game not the players, they got way more options especially with emergence of tinder etc.

With tinder it did something different. Historically women have overlooked the appearance of a guy for his other traits. Tinder and other apps made it all about appearance and vanity. Other traits ceased to become important. Culturally it had already begun to shift. Women have in a sense taken on a far more masculine role and essentially became men themselves. Men have began to become far more feminized. What's occurred now is when all that matters is vanity to extent. Take this article . My favorite part of it is the author spending the time to ostracize and critique a group of individuals for really no reason at all then to make themselves feel better. I know why I haven't had luck with the fairer sex. 1) Too busy didn't go out was study my ass off to get into or in medical school/working/ etc... 2) Poor social skills 3) Didn't try/didn't find most girls around me attractive or worth my time. 4) Not looking for a one night stand... The interesting part of the article is the author indirectly states that there is a group of guys that gets a significant amount of messages.... Average looking guys which isn't particularly surprising given that's what psychology has told us for years. Women's definition of attractive is just different. The point being is this. Tinder made it so women have a significantly more narrow definition of who they want and.... Like the article says if they don't get it they don't care they'll live by themselves and be their own husband. Why? Because society has decided to devalue men significantly. It's just a fact. In other words it isn't more options necessarily but a restriction in the people they are choosing. Ultimately, time will tell but I would expect when this generation especially women are in their 40s or 50s we will see the greatest rise in depression we have ever seen. Because they will find themselves very very alone. And at that point after decades of words and actions devaluing men with nothing to give in return in the way of having kids... Combined with coping strategies and general lack of care I am not sure they will ever find love and will likely die alone. See here not sure why medium is my source du jour but 45% of women will be single in 2030. Fascinating because it sort of seems like tinder expediated a general fracturing of society.

To answer the question yes I do believe in romantic love it's been shown over and over again in history. I think society has been told and is moving in the direction of vanity and vanity alone. With little care towards the other characteristics. As for me do I think romantic love will occur for me? Nope extremely unlikely. That said hasn't it been said the strongest emotion is love?

This took a tangent but I hope someone finds something in it to hate or like.

Edit: I was very much unaware that the link would post an image of the article itself.... I just assumed it would be just clickable...

 

[delora]

I didn't until I got lucky enough to experience it in full force. And I still see it as something rare.

 

[Grimscribe]

I believe it's real, but I never experienced it with anyone, even partners. But I recognize it might be a "me" problem, as I tend to be selfish and rarely open up.

 

[FormerlyFe(IV)]

Yes. I was in a ~3.5 year relationship of which I spent two years living with them. I loved them. I was as romantic as a dumb young college kid could be, I wouldn't bring her flowers but I would remember small remarks and then gift upon them later. We were passionate. And, when that addiction-passion was gone (like @pthnrdnojvsc mentioned) I did feel the slow down but I still did love them. I trusted them with my phone, bank accounts and they did too without second thought.

Sadly, things didn't work out, there were some incompatibility we couldn't iron out, or at least weren't mature enough to deal with. I broke up but it wasn't anything dramatic like someone cheating. It just wasn't working out, and they agreed.

Men : will love a woman as long as he find her attractive and feel that he is needed and cared for her.
Women : will only love a man that she believes is the best she can have.

That's eerily red-/black-pill rhetoric. Not really... I didn't even find my ex particularly attractive until an year into the relationship, after we had seen ourselves nude, that it "hit me" that she was sexy beyond belief. I didn't feel needed or cared like that, she did not need me but cared for me (and so did I for her), but it was more of a cool best-friends lovers partnership that was fun and deeply personal.

I don't know what "best" mean but it feels a lot like you're excluding a lot of men putting them into "subpar". I would consider myself subpar as well, I'm not particularly strong or attractive or financially well off, but it doesn't matter really. Being a kind person and having chemistry is way more important.

With tinder it did something different. Historically women have overlooked the appearance of a guy for his other traits. Tinder and other apps made it all about appearance and vanity. Other traits ceased to become important. Culturally it had already begun to shift. Women have in a sense taken on a far more masculine role and essentially became men themselves. Men have began to become far more feminized. What's occurred now is when all that matters is vanity to extent.

Yeah but also Tinder and other dating apps aren't the world, Most of Tinder users are male, not an equal balance of men or women.

I don't know what you're going on about in women becoming men because my horny brain is still attracted to modern women? Am I not supposed to be attracted to a woman who can deal with her own shit? Why can men only like A and women like B? We're all human and also so varied, there's no real point into arguing of what a person from a gender should want. Both men and women are fundamentally human. We still both have our emotions and backstories and quirks and preferences.

Also, what's with men becoming more feminized? Is the fact that I like being the little spoon sometimes problematic? Or that I have long hair or have cats? Like... I'm happy as to who I am and can attract people like that. I can't punch a man, or lift heavy weights, I'm a programmer nerd. Nor would I mind dating a woman stronger than me.

Tinder made it so women have a significantly more narrow definition of who they want and.... Like the article says if they don't get it they don't care they'll live by themselves and be their own husband. Why? Because society has decided to devalue men significantly.

I have female friends that talked about their experience on Tinder to me. From what they've said, matches are indeed easy, sex is easy, but finding a man worth their damn time is actually pretty hard. There are a lot more men who are just ignorant or selfish in bed than you'd think. They eventually gave up on the app beyond hookups.

At the same time, I guess men were devalued? Like, if a woman can live off her own, then she can be pretty selective of which men she deals with. Settling down is less of a concern now because women in the past needed to settle because they needed a man to do some basic stuff sometimes. In some places it was less than 50 years ago where women needed permission of their husband to do anything at all.

As a personal note, I also learned the same about women, that some just aren't for me. I also used to think of a "scarcity" mindset and that "any hole is a goal". Not really though. I was with a woman that was just weird for me, that belittled me for being a girl for cuddling the wrong way or had super weird opinions on things. I was just Netflix and chilling and even then I was discomfortable. We parted ways. I now realize that nah, I'm not for most women nor are most women for me, as pretty or attractive they might be on paper. There is much more to it.

Edit: I was very much unaware that the link would post an image of the article itself.... I just assumed it would be just clickable...

I didn't really click them, but rest assured, they are clickable :)

 

[Archness]

Something like it is real.

But if we're talking the kind of "Romantic Love" People talk about and is everywhere in media, but people oddly don't really feel it outside of the honeymoon phase, then I'd say that kind of love is "fake and actually shallow".

 

[DeadManLiving]

Romance is a cultural artifact. Attractiveness is an appraisal of a person's transactional value or worthiness in our laissez-faire, capitalistic, free market dating ecosystem. We're all just participants in this sociobiological game of not losing opportunity and falling into temptation.

Men fall in love with what they see, and women fall in love with what they hear. Which is why women get buttlifts and men tell lies.

Relationships are transactional leases based on expectations that ultimately disappoint or depreciate, like cars. I think that what we're all looking for is an authentic human relationship. Easier to find a Jewish Aligator I could pull a golden tooth from and pass it through the eye of a needle than a loving, lasting, authentic human relationship.

Realistically, they do exist. There are good people out there who realize that while you're burning decades looking for the perfect person, you'll miss out on the imperfect one that would have made you perfectly happy. But who wants to settle these days? The odds are so slim, and the false hope is so luring. It's an unquenchable thirst, and eventually you'll run out of steam going from Mirage to Mirage in this sociobiological process of love and hunger games.

As a former participant in it and now removing myself from it as an observer, it's a cute game. But let it continue on as it will; I'm opting out.

 

[brokeandbroken]

Yeah but also Tinder and other dating apps aren't the world, Most of Tinder users are male, not an equal balance of men or women.

I don't know what you're going on about in women becoming men because my horny brain is still attracted to modern women? Am I not supposed to be attracted to a woman who can deal with her own shit? Why can men only like A and women like B? We're all human and also so varied, there's no real point into arguing of what a person from a gender should want. Both men and women are fundamentally human. We still both have our emotions and backstories and quirks and preferences.

Also, what's with men becoming more feminized? Is the fact that I like being the little spoon sometimes problematic? Or that I have long hair or have cats? Like... I'm happy as to who I am and can attract people like that. I can't punch a man, or lift heavy weights, I'm a programmer nerd. Nor would I mind dating a woman stronger than me.

I mean Tinder also boats one of the worst ratios with places like Eharmony having more women then men. Tinder was the service in question. I just used the statistical data to draw inferences from. This data here fleshes it out further by saying women aren't looking https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/#:~:text=Among those who are married,to have met their partner. Family/Friends is the most common way well if that part of your life is rocky for whatever reason skip to two. Work 18% and School 17%. Removing school you are left with the next option of online e.g. dating apps at 12%.With the top 3 being situationally dependent online is actually arguably the most controllable way. In suburban or Urban areas it is actually 14%. Amongst those 18-29 21%. Meaning in the age demographic only Friends/Family and school are more common. Basically the only way for men to "put themselves out there" that they can control with the best chance is dating apps. Bars/Restaurants are 2% of couples 18-29. Now that that is settled let's move on.

I don't mean women are becoming literally men. I mean gender roles have switched. For instance amongst college students 60% are women and 40% are men. Almost inverted from the 1960s. Do I have a problem with women getting an education? Nope! Men are dropping the ball. Though to only to a moderate extent are they dropping the ball. Why? Boys/Men again are devalued. The perfect student as described statistically is *Female*. When is the last time you heard about a push to get men into the STEM field? Ever? Or college? Ever? Before you scoff that this is a new phenomenon that women are *just* now breaking the ceiling and going to college more then men.... Nope! Women have earned more degrees then men since the... *1980s*. Why is this a problem why are you bring it up broke? Because women want an *equal*. Why things like your job creates relationships or school where you are taking the same classes. Women now are left with a choice by and large marry someone that isn't their equal, sleep around never marry, or never marry and don't sleep around. At the same time society is lifting up women more and more and denigrating men for being born into a system in which they are devalued. This article slightly touches on the topic https://dailycollegian.com/2018/04/schools-are-designed-more-for-girls-than-for-boys/ and so does this one https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-unreported-gender-gap-in-high-school-graduation-rates/ or this one https://www.patheos.com/blogs/roger...tion-against-boys-in-education-and-elsewhere/ . With the latter article showing data that says boys are not only given worse grades because of (natural) behavior but women are expected to perform better. Boy/men are meeting those expectations.

I say this as someone who not only as a male who went to college for psychology but also medical school. I also was a bodybuilder and many other things.... I will also say the reason I did relatively okay in school was because I went to private school where the discipline bordered on abuse and if you talked or did anything disruptive you were going to have an extra bad day. Once you finished with your work you could basically just read. Lucky for me I enjoy reading unlucky for me the social skills normally you would develop I didn't.

Women are outperforming men and they are left looking over their shoulders going I don't have an equal now. Before you scoff well women are smarter! Sort of but no. Men are more polarized more men are geniuses then women and more men are born intellectually disabled. Women are born intellectually by data more average. Here is the issue not only are women outperforming men scholastically but they are also narrowing the amount of men they will date outside of that. Which means those that will date will only date a subset of men and the others won't date at all. *AND* the system is built to make these problems even worse. though maybe not horrendously to be fair as even universities and colleges are noticing see here https://hechingerreport.org/an-unno...college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/though when some action is taken it is immediately labeled discrimination see here https://www.vox.com/2015/2/17/80502...women-is-a-real-problem-in-college-admissions . Bottom line women want an equal which is becoming rarer because of the devaluing of males, women are narrowing their selection because of technology, and they aren't dating because of any number of reason but largely I would assume because of both the tech associated with it and lack of appropriate suitors. Again blame society. This is at the same time again that women are lifted up and men are told they don't matter see the article above. Moving on...

I have female friends that talked about their experience on Tinder to me. From what they've said, matches are indeed easy, sex is easy, but finding a man worth their damn time is actually pretty hard. There are a lot more men who are just ignorant or selfish in bed than you'd think. They eventually gave up on the app beyond hookups.

At the same time, I guess men were devalued? Like, if a woman can live off her own, then she can be pretty selective of which men she deals with. Settling down is less of a concern now because women in the past needed to settle because they needed a man to do some basic stuff sometimes. In some places it was less than 50 years ago where women needed permission of their husband to do anything at all.

As a personal note, I also learned the same about women, that some just aren't for me. I also used to think of a "scarcity" mindset and that "any hole is a goal". Not really though. I was with a woman that was just weird for me, that belittled me for being a girl for cuddling the wrong way or had super weird opinions on things. I was just Netflix and chilling and even then I was discomfortable. We parted ways. I now realize that nah, I'm not for most women nor are most women for me, as pretty or attractive they might be on paper. There is much more to it.

Yeah I didn't say anything about one night stands or casual sex other than briefly stating not what *I* am into. This is actually likely a side effect of the above. The men that are having sex, with this generation having sex at all time low rates, they have a large amount of suitors. Why be tied down when I don't have to? You told me yourself it is easy. Is that good for you no. But men are dumb.

This argument is used often but you yourself are making the inverse argument. Essentially saying yeah you are right men aren't needed. That's a pretty rough argument when you say 50% of people don't matter. Like you said sex can be satisfied easily. This is ignoring the companion component. The parts of relationship outside of sex, etc... Again like I said I think you are going to see women have significant amounts of depression when they turn 40/50 when they realize they can't have kids. That men probably aren't going to want them anymore because of that. By the way you want to know the biggest predicator of poverty in the world. Single motherhood. Greatest detriment to children lack of a two parent household. Turns out having parents together matters. In fact having a male father figure is extremely important like very. Basically what I am saying is Men matter and you should have a problem with how they are being seen, treated, etc...

I didn't really click them, but rest assured, they are clickable :)

I meant I didn't expect the picture....

 

[EndJstifiesTheMeans]

Not anymore.. or is extremely rare

 

[Ambivalent1]

It's real if you can physically attract the person, which is step 1. Step 2 is charm, intelligence, humor, status, resource acquisition.

Romantic love always had pillars (personal qualities) propping it up.

 

[Pink and white]

No, I no longer trust love; in the end, it just shatters you into a thousand pieces, and you feel rotten.

 

[lament.]

I do believe that romantic love exists, I have seen it first hand and I feel like it goes without saying that physical attraction does matter, especially in the first stages of the relationship, but everyone's ideal partner looks different and the beauty standards aren't set in stone. Even if you aren't conventionally attractive as deemed in modern society there will still be people who are attracted to you as everyone's brains work differently. I personally believe if someone is dating you just for your looks then your relationship will be shallow and fall apart, which seems much more common for people who ARE conventionally attractive.

 

[Maeve]

I doo but i is really rare.
Love is like a tender rose planted in the grden it needs a lot of care to flourish.

But for real communication that's the secret sauce and making compromises
It also needs two to actually want it.
So most of the time it wil wilt
But if they bloom its the moat beautiful thing in the world.


Sorry for this mushi awnser i should stop with the drunk posting xD

 

[FormerlyFe(IV)]

This argument is used often but you yourself are making the inverse argument. Essentially saying yeah you are right men aren't needed. That's a pretty rough argument when you say 50% of people don't matter. Like you said sex can be satisfied easily. This is ignoring the companion component. The parts of relationship outside of sex, etc... Again like I said I think you are going to see women have significant amounts of depression when they turn 40/50 when they realize they can't have kids. That men probably aren't going to want them anymore because of that. By the way you want to know the biggest predicator of poverty in the world. Single motherhood. Greatest detriment to children lack of a two parent household. Turns out having parents together matters. In fact having a male father figure is extremely important like very. Basically what I am saying is Men matter and you should have a problem with how they are being seen, treated, etc...

I think that 50% of people not mattering is kinda dramatic. I have no interest in the dating pool, or even in the lives of, most Indonesian people, for example. But that doesn't really mean that Indonesian people don't matter. They do, but not to me.

I would never say that men don't matter, but companionship isn't the same must as it was in the past. A heck of a lot of women still seek companionship, heck, I just got "rejected" because I wanted something casual and the woman I was FWB with wanted something more serious. It's also true that companionship is finding other forms, with women having more professional and casual freedom they fulfill themselves in relationships that aren't romantic. Friends and family and pets and just romantic companionship (given the rise of the child-free philosophy) are sometimes enough.

Men, and dads, definitely do matter. I don't think otherwise. But I see that we're moving out of an old period, like up to the 70s, where society at large was very male-oriented. Feminism and social media and what not are empowering women to "fight that back". But also, just be themselves. I'd rather have a woman being happy single out there than one that feels pressured to have a family. I think this huge shift is scaring some people but it'll balance out eventually.

This data here fleshes it out further by saying women aren't looking https://www.pewresearch.org/social-...ose who are married,to have met their partner. Family/Friends is the most common way well if that part of your life is rocky for whatever reason skip to two. Work 18% and School 17%. Removing school you are left with the next option of online e.g. dating apps at 12%.With the top 3 being situationally dependent online is actually arguably the most controllable way. In suburban or Urban areas it is actually 14%. Amongst those 18-29 21%. Meaning in the age demographic only Friends/Family and school are more common. Basically the only way for men to "put themselves out there" that they can control with the best chance is dating apps. Bars/Restaurants are 2% of couples 18-29. Now that that is settled let's move on.

I honestly appreciate the well-thoughtout response , let me just say that. And not only is Pew reliable... I actually got distracted reading their report thinking of responding you. I also looked into the Daily Collegian, Brookings and Vox articles that you sent. Thanks.

While it doesn't really mention appearance and vanity, it is true that, according to that study, over half of women are finding it hard to find someone that meets their expectations, as vague as that is. And that the singles gap is actually bigger and more in line with the disparity of dating apps too, with more single women than men not looking for dates at all. I didn't actually think the difference was that big. I stand corrected. Online dating sucks more places than I imagined.

I don't mean women are becoming literally men. I mean gender roles have switched. For instance amongst college students 60% are women and 40% are men. Almost inverted from the 1960s. Do I have a problem with women getting an education? Nope! Men are dropping the ball. Though to a moderate extent they are dropping the ball. I don't want to get into it unless absolutely necessary but statistically women are being pushed in that direction and men aren't. Men again are devalued.

Call me a walking cognitive dissonance but I feel like the meaning of "gender roles have switched" and "men being devalued" feels very different than "men/boys are being left behind in education". The former feels like the gender roles were necessarily better in the past or that there is an active campaign against manhood. There is an active campaign for womenhood and yeah those stats are sad and worrying.

Especially since men complaining about our gender-specific issues aren't super in vogue right now. I think I remember agree with a Jordan Peterson (?) speech about this, how more teachers are now women and how they are treating girls more favorably in schools. It's a sad and yeah urgent systemic problem that I too wish was being discussed more often. Of course it's not that simple since there are so many other factors too (as your links do describe) but the imbalance is definitely there.

Not going to lie I find the university admission process in the US kinda weird. In Brazil we have kind of a nation-wide SAT and you just compete with other people interested in the university based off that score. Some universities have their own tests but they're almost all standardized or the cheap private colleges just let anyone in. The fact that applications that are judged on a case-by-case basis and also have to be actively non-judgemental or proactively inclusive is so weird.

---

I feel like we relatively agree on the stats and are approaching this from different angles. Maybe my dating experience (through friends/school/work, not online dating) is more optimistic and yours is understandably more pessimistic. I just don't like the almost antagonistic vibe I get sometimes.

I'm not going to jumble the numbers too much, but I still feel like it's possible to be relatively positive still. There is at least a 2-to-1 gender imbalance. That's still pretty good. You only need to be better than one average dude, and let's be honest, average dude can be pretty mediocre. There still are a large portion of the women dating that are finding success. It's a goddamn dumbass numbers game that everyone is playing, and I agree it's bullshit, and so does everyone else. But maybe it's not the end of the world.

I'm not sure how things get better other than hope. How do we make online dating and other experiences "more human" where big tech got us by the balls? I don't know. But love is still out there.

 

[Ferret77]

I've experienced it, and it was beautiful while it lasted....You could say it was 'true love,' at least from my side, that is. But like all of my relationships with people in general, it ended and gave me so much trauma and pain, because that person was also very toxic and hurtful. Well....To answer your question, it exists, but there's almost no chance it will last for long....Besides love is a social construct anyways. There's just so much pressure to have a romantic relationship, and if you don't have one, regardless if you want to or don't want to, people immediately think that something is wrong with you for that, and eventually even you start to question that. Therefore, if you can't find someone, it's okay....They will show up eventually or it's also very much okay, to not have a romantic relationship whatsoever, because it's too painful anyway.