B

brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,042
I think that 50% of people not mattering is kinda dramatic. I have no interest in the dating pool, or even in the lives of, most Indonesian people, for example. But that doesn't really mean that Indonesian people don't matter. They do, but not to me.

I would never say that men don't matter, but companionship isn't the same must as it was in the past. A heck of a lot of women still seek companionship, heck, I just got "rejected" because I wanted something casual and the woman I was FWB with wanted something more serious. It's also true that companionship is finding other forms, with women having more professional and casual freedom they fulfill themselves in relationships that aren't romantic. Friends and family and pets and just romantic companionship (given the rise of the child-free philosophy) are sometimes enough.

Men, and dads, definitely do matter. I don't think otherwise. But I see that we're moving out of an old period, like up to the 70s, where society at large was very male-oriented. Feminism and social media and what not are empowering women to "fight that back". But also, just be themselves. I'd rather have a woman being happy single out there than one that feels pressured to have a family. I think this huge shift is scaring some people but it'll balance out eventually.
I think you are taking a micro view and I am looking at society as a whole. I think the child-free philosophy and that people are super happy in it are lying to themselves. They are told that's what they should want they have the issues above and probably ones I don't recognize. It's also different when you know you can have kids then when you find out you can't when you really really want one but now you are too old. Look here https://ifstudies.org/blog/shrinkin...-6-women-in-their-40s-have-never-given-birth- . Women's happiness in every age group is better when they are married. In fact with one minor exception I would expect to not be statistically significant women's happiness in the unmarried/no children category is worse then unmarried with children. 18-34 you see over 4x more women report being very happy in the married with kids group then unmarried no kids group. 35-54 2x the amount. 55+ 2.5x the amount. The countervailing argument comes predominately from Paul Dolan who essentially retracted what he said on the topic. It is truly shocking how many articles went forth and quoted him because it pushed the narrative. What narrative? That being childless/marriageless should make you the happiest person on the planet! I'd go as far as saying I know why... It gives them a purpose. How many women are saying they are happy being single and childless because they think they should be happy? That this is what happiness is. The point being this... Almost everything you read on the topic denigrates men to a very large degree. Treats them as borderline inhuman. I think we are used to it. You say it isn't the 70s.... But I don't think people are clamoring for that man or woman. They are clamoring for an equal relationship. I think it is scaring people because for every women dropping out is a man that won't get a woman to marry.

Lastly, I think it could be said women fought back. Back the results are maybe not what they want it to be. Look at depression, suicide rates, happiness, levels etc... Are people today really more happy? Does that mean bring the 70s back God no. But maybe not push away everything that existed like marriage and family. People don't have more friendships then 50 years ago either see here https://nypost.com/2021/07/27/americans-have-fewer-friends-than-ever-before-study/ or here . America is lonely and this is one of the reasons driving it. Are some women and men happier single without marriage sure. But it is probably about the same amount it has always been. Again like I said before numerous factors are at play. Technology, cultural shift for the worse, women becoming more selective, men being pushed away and left behind academically, etc.... Bottom line though what this shows is men *Do* matter. And both women and men should be pissed. Women should be pissed they are being sold on a lie (and this lie by the way is being bought more by educated women) and men should be pissed their value is basically nothing. Literally when is the last time you watched virtually any show or saw anything portraying a man in a positive light? Think about the words used today like mansplaining or manflu that are derogatory towards males. Dude can't even get some chicken noodle soup and a nap when he is sick without being called a bitch basically. I'm tired and this has already taken way too long but we both know many many others that are probably much better exist.

For the record there's an elephant in the room that should be addressed as well. Porn. The industry is designed to exploit men particularly boys. Want to know the average age a male watches porn for the *first* time. 11 years old. 15% have seen porn before the age of 10. Meaning on average if they had a child the day of the first time they had seen porn, by the time they could legally drink that child would be a year from having a child themselves. Put another way by the time a man can legally drink in the US he'll have watched a decade of porn. 44% of people seek out porn the first time or 56% find it accidentally. Porn has a lot of nasty side effects like premature ejaculation for instance. Guess what is bound to happen in this scenario... he will watch porn. Society is destroying relationships particularly families and it isn't for the better. To summarize men aren't supported in school to the contrary actually, by fifth grade they will have consumed porn for the first time on average, society continually tells them they suck basically, anytime a man needs helped he's basically mocked and told to deal with it, women are by and large leaving the dating scene to their own suffering, and society is better? I don't think so.
I honestly appreciate the well-thoughtout response , let me just say that. And not only is Pew reliable... I actually got distracted reading their report thinking of responding you. I also looked into the Daily Collegian, Brookings and Vox articles that you sent. Thanks.

While it doesn't really mention appearance and vanity, it is true that, according to that study, over half of women are finding it hard to find someone that meets their expectations, as vague as that is. And that the singles gap is actually bigger and more in line with the disparity of dating apps too, with more single women than men not looking for dates at all. I didn't actually think the difference was that big. I stand corrected. Online dating sucks more places than I imagined.
I think the one article listed 3s receiving the lionshare of the messages.
Call me a walking cognitive dissonance but I feel like the meaning of "gender roles have switched" and "men being devalued" feels very different than "men/boys are being left behind in education". The former feels like the gender roles were necessarily better in the past or that there is an active campaign against manhood. There is an active campaign for womenhood and yeah those stats are sad and worrying.

Especially since men complaining about our gender-specific issues aren't super in vogue right now. I think I remember agree with a Jordan Peterson (?) speech about this, how more teachers are now women and how they are treating girls more favorably in schools. It's a sad and yeah urgent systemic problem that I too wish was being discussed more often. Of course it's not that simple since there are so many other factors too (as your links do describe) but the imbalance is definitely there.

Not going to lie I find the university admission process in the US kinda weird. In Brazil we have kind of a nation-wide SAT and you just compete with other people interested in the university based off that score. Some universities have their own tests but they're almost all standardized or the cheap private colleges just let anyone in. The fact that applications that are judged on a case-by-case basis and also have to be actively non-judgemental or proactively inclusive is so weird.
I think there is an active campaign against manhood because it thought to make womenhood better you must denigrate men. Why? Because lifting both of them up is hard. It takes work. It isn't easy. It doesn't win votes in November. Make men that had 0 part in society being the way it is and tell them they suck from the day they are born. I am here to say men don't suck. I think the article basically said men aren't sending in applications (see what I said regarding schools) and therefore to have somewhat even numbers it is easier for men to get in. And notably people were pretty peeved about this. Somewhat ironic considering in other instances like Asians applying they don't seem to care but whatever. Double standards will double standard.
I feel like we relatively agree on the stats and are approaching this from different angles. Maybe my dating experience (through friends/school/work, not online dating) is more optimistic and yours is understandably more pessimistic. I just don't like the almost antagonistic vibe I get sometimes.

I'm not going to jumble the numbers too much, but I still feel like it's possible to be relatively positive still. There is at least a 2-to-1 gender imbalance. That's still pretty good. You only need to be better than one average dude, and let's be honest, average dude can be pretty mediocre. There still are a large portion of the women dating that are finding success. It's a goddamn dumbass numbers game that everyone is playing, and I agree it's bullshit, and so does everyone else. But maybe it's not the end of the world.

I'm not sure how things get better other than hope. How do we make online dating and other experiences "more human" where big tech got us by the balls? I don't know. But love is still out there.
Ehh you are looking at as a numbers game without needing too. There's apps with a skew towards women being the dominate party in the dating app sphere. Not dominate but bumble has a better ratio then say tinder. I agree it is bullshit. And above is the reasons why. Men are being devalued significantly. I am just saying I don't like it. It should stop. That is why.
 
KAZ-2Y5

KAZ-2Y5

Verrückt
Jul 23, 2023
149
Yes I know it exists it's just a matter of finding it.
 
F

FindingHome

Student
Aug 4, 2023
175
No I don't believe in romantic love. I have never been in love and never will be. I am glad too that is something I have not experienced. Everyone around me that is in a romantic relationship is miserable. The sad thing is they always encourage me to find love. My reaction is why so I can experience misery. Misery sure does love company.
 
revolutionnaire23

revolutionnaire23

Love is a poison that I can't seem to cure.
Aug 6, 2023
33
it's real. it's very very real. when i was in my relationship, i did feel that intense connection, more so than other feelings. It's an amazing feeling. But I lost it a few days ago and I'm spiraling ever since. Hah, but anyway, forgive me for the rant. It's rare, I'd say. I've seen people be in their happy relationships, and I'd say romantic love is a true emotion.
 
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Orbitc

Orbitc

Sorry for my English
Jul 2, 2023
277
Do you believe in romantic love or do you think it's all about appearances and so on?
Lol I don't believe in love - all men are bastards - I see every day how men cheat on their wives - I have been working as a prostitute since I was 15.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,484
Men, and dads, definitely do matter. I don't think otherwise. But I see that we're moving out of an old period, like up to the 70s, where society at large was very male-oriented. Feminism and social media and what not are empowering women to "fight that back". But also, just be themselves. I'd rather have a woman being happy single out there than one that feels pressured to have a family. I think this huge shift is scaring some people but it'll balance out eventually.
Yeah I think the 70s was also crucial because that's when governments became more bureaucratized & pushed people to work longer for less security. Kills relationships made for pleasure & curiosity

I think there is an active campaign against manhood because it thought to make womenhood better you must denigrate men.
I think there's different women's movements. They're often in conflict. (For example, try to get a Girl Boss type to support a badass mideastern radical-democratic eco-feminist. Likely ain't gonna happen)

Some play a zero-sum game — keep the status-quo but shift the power balance. Same number of people at the top: just more women & less men. They try to obliterate men's bargaining power (and dignity/respect), and don't give a damn about poor women

They're basically ambitious elitists who care about the glass ceiling, not the scary basement

Call me a walking cognitive dissonance but I feel like the meaning of "gender roles have switched" and "men being devalued" feels very different than "men/boys are being left behind in education". The former feels like the gender roles were necessarily better in the past or that there is an active campaign against manhood. There is an active campaign for womenhood and yeah those stats are sad and worrying.
I do think people in relationships should take on different roles. Right now, roles are segmented by gender. But instead, maybe they can be segmented by personality type

Lol I don't believe in love - all men are bastards - I see every day how men cheat on their wives - I have been working as a prostitute since I was 15.
Yeah, I think marriage is an intoxicating fantasy that's poison for erotic desire. Fun to flirt with, foolish to do

I also think that without purpose in life, people turn to boinking and other sensual pleasures. Because what else to do before death?

Maybe your child-abusing clientele's a bit skewed towards bastards, but certainly extremely few people seem to act with basic morality
 
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B

brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,042
I think there's different women's movements. They're often in conflict. (For example, try to get a Girl Boss type to support a badass mideastern radical-democratic eco-feminist. Likely ain't gonna happen)

Some play a zero-sum game — keep the status-quo but shift the power balance. Same number of people at the top: just more women & less men. They try to obliterate men's bargaining power (and dignity/respect), and don't give a damn about poor women

They're basically ambitious elitists who care about the glass ceiling, not the scary basement
I'm not sure what you are saying in response. There is absolutely women's movements of many different kinds of flavors. Some I'm opposed to some I am not. For instance the Mahsa Amini protests couldn't be more for. I also don't have an issue with women being successful. None whatsoever it's a good thing. That said I also am not of the belief that it such come at the expense of men. Let me explain let's go back to what I wrote...

I mean Tinder also boats one of the worst ratios with places like Eharmony having more women then men. Tinder was the service in question. I just used the statistical data to draw inferences from. This data here fleshes it out further by saying women aren't looking https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/#:~:text=Among those who are married,to have met their partner. Family/Friends is the most common way well if that part of your life is rocky for whatever reason skip to two. Work 18% and School 17%. Removing school you are left with the next option of online e.g. dating apps at 12%.With the top 3 being situationally dependent online is actually arguably the most controllable way. In suburban or Urban areas it is actually 14%. Amongst those 18-29 21%. Meaning in the age demographic only Friends/Family and school are more common. Basically the only way for men to "put themselves out there" that they can control with the best chance is dating apps. Bars/Restaurants are 2% of couples 18-29. Now that that is settled let's move on.

I don't mean women are becoming literally men. I mean gender roles have switched. For instance amongst college students 60% are women and 40% are men. Almost inverted from the 1960s. Do I have a problem with women getting an education? Nope! Men are dropping the ball. Though to only to a moderate extent are they dropping the ball. Why? Boys/Men again are devalued. The perfect student as described statistically is *Female*. When is the last time you heard about a push to get men into the STEM field? Ever? Or college? Ever? Before you scoff that this is a new phenomenon that women are *just* now breaking the ceiling and going to college more then men.... Nope! Women have earned more degrees then men since the... *1980s*. Why is this a problem why are you bring it up broke? Because women want an *equal*. Why things like your job creates relationships or school where you are taking the same classes. Women now are left with a choice by and large marry someone that isn't their equal, sleep around never marry, or never marry and don't sleep around. At the same time society is lifting up women more and more and denigrating men for being born into a system in which they are devalued. This article slightly touches on the topic https://dailycollegian.com/2018/04/schools-are-designed-more-for-girls-than-for-boys/ and so does this one https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-unreported-gender-gap-in-high-school-graduation-rates/ or this one https://www.patheos.com/blogs/roger...tion-against-boys-in-education-and-elsewhere/ . With the latter article showing data that says boys are not only given worse grades because of (natural) behavior but women are expected to perform better. Boy/men are meeting those expectations.

I say this as someone who not only as a male who went to college for psychology but also medical school. I also was a bodybuilder and many other things.... I will also say the reason I did relatively okay in school was because I went to private school where the discipline bordered on abuse and if you talked or did anything disruptive you were going to have an extra bad day. Once you finished with your work you could basically just read. Lucky for me I enjoy reading unlucky for me the social skills normally you would develop I didn't.

Women are outperforming men and they are left looking over their shoulders going I don't have an equal now. Before you scoff well women are smarter! Sort of but no. Men are more polarized more men are geniuses then women and more men are born intellectually disabled. Women are born intellectually by data more average. Here is the issue not only are women outperforming men scholastically but they are also narrowing the amount of men they will date outside of that. Which means those that will date will only date a subset of men and the others won't date at all. *AND* the system is built to make these problems even worse. though maybe not horrendously to be fair as even universities and colleges are noticing see here https://hechingerreport.org/an-unno...college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/though when some action is taken it is immediately labeled discrimination see here https://www.vox.com/2015/2/17/80502...women-is-a-real-problem-in-college-admissions . Bottom line women want an equal which is becoming rarer because of the devaluing of males, women are narrowing their selection because of technology, and they aren't dating because of any number of reason but largely I would assume because of both the tech associated with it and lack of appropriate suitors. Again blame society. This is at the same time again that women are lifted up and men are told they don't matter see the article above. Moving on...
Education may be the most important component for success. Why restricting women's ability to get a proper education is so heinous. In the US however, per the data men are maltreated, have less expectations given to them, and generally speaking aren't performing as well as they should. Why is the degree gap so stark? It's been this why for 41 years. There isn't campaigns to get men into college, STEM, or anything else. I find this a problem. This also means this first years cohort assuming an average age of graduation of 22 is going to be in their mid 60s now. 1992-1993 was 55% women, Here is the share of degrees over time https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-female-shares-of-ba-degrees-by-major-1971-to-2017/ and here is the degree shares https://www.statista.com/statistics/185157/number-of-bachelor-degrees-by-gender-since-1950/ . By the stats men today are where women were in 1970 notably before title IX. Notably the 1959-60 statistic shows that women then aren't that far from men today in earning bachelor's degrees 58% women vs 65% men. Yet when is the last time you have heard a call for alarm in this regard? As indicated in the quote the opposite anyone who does is called a misogynist or it's discriminatory.

More saliently to the topic at hand like I said in the quote. Women are looking for their equal the education system has ensured that a significant amount of women won't be able to find them. It doesn't have anything to do with female empowerment or anything like that. It's simple an educated women is going to want an educated man. Educated men are a dying breed. Those that do exist are disproportionally going to have deficits to social skills. Why? Because those do have social skills are going to be less likely to go in the first place. Put another way women didn't fight for themselves to be both the man and the woman in the relationship. Which is why I said both genders should be angry. Women are finding men because they aren't inspired to get an education, those that do it's not unlikely to be because they have an aptitude at the cost of other things like social skills.... And vice versa men aren't finding women because women don't want to date them because they want to find their equal.

Like I said before as well the average age a male watches porn for the first time is *11*. With 15% seeing it for the first time at age 9 or younger. This Spanish study had it at 10.4 years for university students https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9265877/ . If you don't think this going to have an impact downstream I think you are wrong.

My point is simply this in two areas without spending much time on the topic. Both in terms of arguably one of the most important components to success (education) and interpersonally society is harming both men and women. That is why we are seeing the dating trends. I could go further but that is what I meant by the post. Your response was a little vague but I hoped this fleshed it out further. Simply put men are getting screwed by society and it's impacting both them and women. This shouldn't be seen as an attack towards women. I think society is screwing us both it's just benefitting you slightly more and a very small group a ton.

________
Anecdotally I can look later to fill this in and edit but I don't have the time right now. I don't think society supports men if they want to pursue in education. I was in *medical school*. Victim of a crime by the university lost everything etc.... Society just went wow that sucks well start over!! Have fun being poor. I could be wrong but I feel like if I was a woman I would've received help. Though it is well known men drop out of 4 year degrees at a significantly higher rate then women...
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,484
I'm not sure what you are saying in response. There is absolutely women's movements of many different kinds of flavors. Some I'm opposed to some I am not. For instance the Mahsa Amini protests couldn't be more for. I also don't have an issue with women being successful. None whatsoever it's a good thing. That said I also am not of the belief that it such come at the expense of men. Let me explain let's go back to what I wrote...
Yeah, I certainly wasn't disagreeing, just kind of adding (maybe unnecessarily) to what you were saying
 
B

brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,042
Yeah, I certainly wasn't disagreeing, just kind of adding (maybe unnecessarily) to what you were saying
Hopefully what I posted wasn't pedantic then! My apologies and thank you.
 
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Rocinante

Rocinante

My name is Lucifer, please take my hand
Aug 26, 2022
1,461
Yeah
 
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divinemistress36

divinemistress36

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2024
3,129
I think its rare . Mostly transactional
 
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wastingpotential

wastingpotential

drowning, always.
Feb 8, 2023
166
yes but i don't believe i'm destined to have it in this life
 
S

sadespair

Member
Dec 10, 2023
26
no. romantic love is a fairy tale. an illusion. love is just lust. people only care about whats on the outside and not the inside...
 
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Saturn_

Saturn_

Arcanist
Apr 22, 2024
423
I do believe in love, just not for a person like myself. I feel like I am just a perfect storm of maladjusted behaviors that makes truly romantically loving me impossible, if not extremely difficult. Maybe some people can relate.
 
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LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,213
Why wouldn't I? All the couples in the world can't be deceiving us perma-single people, right?
 
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itsneverbeenmoreove

itsneverbeenmoreove

You are just my love
May 21, 2024
78
Yes. I believe in "true love" and soulmates too. Which doesn't really make sense given that I'm a determinist and a materialist, but whatevs.
 
ms_beaverhousen

ms_beaverhousen

*can't breathe*
Mar 14, 2024
1,212
Oh for fuck's sake....
 
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m1ll1pede

m1ll1pede

Chronic stupidity
Jun 2, 2024
55
I wish, its a comforting story when a person lives a happily ever after. I've been raped, assaulted, used and neglected in almost all my relationships. If my relationship is with a girl they only want me as a friend.
 
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Edpal247

Edpal247

Experienced
Jul 9, 2024
222
Yes - I think many relationship start with it. Then it changes over time into more like a "besties" relationship, if it endures. Which is fine.
 

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