B
brokeandbroken
Enlightened
- Apr 18, 2023
- 1,042
I think you are taking a micro view and I am looking at society as a whole. I think the child-free philosophy and that people are super happy in it are lying to themselves. They are told that's what they should want they have the issues above and probably ones I don't recognize. It's also different when you know you can have kids then when you find out you can't when you really really want one but now you are too old. Look here https://ifstudies.org/blog/shrinkin...-6-women-in-their-40s-have-never-given-birth- . Women's happiness in every age group is better when they are married. In fact with one minor exception I would expect to not be statistically significant women's happiness in the unmarried/no children category is worse then unmarried with children. 18-34 you see over 4x more women report being very happy in the married with kids group then unmarried no kids group. 35-54 2x the amount. 55+ 2.5x the amount. The countervailing argument comes predominately from Paul Dolan who essentially retracted what he said on the topic. It is truly shocking how many articles went forth and quoted him because it pushed the narrative. What narrative? That being childless/marriageless should make you the happiest person on the planet! I'd go as far as saying I know why... It gives them a purpose. How many women are saying they are happy being single and childless because they think they should be happy? That this is what happiness is. The point being this... Almost everything you read on the topic denigrates men to a very large degree. Treats them as borderline inhuman. I think we are used to it. You say it isn't the 70s.... But I don't think people are clamoring for that man or woman. They are clamoring for an equal relationship. I think it is scaring people because for every women dropping out is a man that won't get a woman to marry.I think that 50% of people not mattering is kinda dramatic. I have no interest in the dating pool, or even in the lives of, most Indonesian people, for example. But that doesn't really mean that Indonesian people don't matter. They do, but not to me.
I would never say that men don't matter, but companionship isn't the same must as it was in the past. A heck of a lot of women still seek companionship, heck, I just got "rejected" because I wanted something casual and the woman I was FWB with wanted something more serious. It's also true that companionship is finding other forms, with women having more professional and casual freedom they fulfill themselves in relationships that aren't romantic. Friends and family and pets and just romantic companionship (given the rise of the child-free philosophy) are sometimes enough.
Men, and dads, definitely do matter. I don't think otherwise. But I see that we're moving out of an old period, like up to the 70s, where society at large was very male-oriented. Feminism and social media and what not are empowering women to "fight that back". But also, just be themselves. I'd rather have a woman being happy single out there than one that feels pressured to have a family. I think this huge shift is scaring some people but it'll balance out eventually.
Lastly, I think it could be said women fought back. Back the results are maybe not what they want it to be. Look at depression, suicide rates, happiness, levels etc... Are people today really more happy? Does that mean bring the 70s back God no. But maybe not push away everything that existed like marriage and family. People don't have more friendships then 50 years ago either see here https://nypost.com/2021/07/27/americans-have-fewer-friends-than-ever-before-study/ or here . America is lonely and this is one of the reasons driving it. Are some women and men happier single without marriage sure. But it is probably about the same amount it has always been. Again like I said before numerous factors are at play. Technology, cultural shift for the worse, women becoming more selective, men being pushed away and left behind academically, etc.... Bottom line though what this shows is men *Do* matter. And both women and men should be pissed. Women should be pissed they are being sold on a lie (and this lie by the way is being bought more by educated women) and men should be pissed their value is basically nothing. Literally when is the last time you watched virtually any show or saw anything portraying a man in a positive light? Think about the words used today like mansplaining or manflu that are derogatory towards males. Dude can't even get some chicken noodle soup and a nap when he is sick without being called a bitch basically. I'm tired and this has already taken way too long but we both know many many others that are probably much better exist.
For the record there's an elephant in the room that should be addressed as well. Porn. The industry is designed to exploit men particularly boys. Want to know the average age a male watches porn for the *first* time. 11 years old. 15% have seen porn before the age of 10. Meaning on average if they had a child the day of the first time they had seen porn, by the time they could legally drink that child would be a year from having a child themselves. Put another way by the time a man can legally drink in the US he'll have watched a decade of porn. 44% of people seek out porn the first time or 56% find it accidentally. Porn has a lot of nasty side effects like premature ejaculation for instance. Guess what is bound to happen in this scenario... he will watch porn. Society is destroying relationships particularly families and it isn't for the better. To summarize men aren't supported in school to the contrary actually, by fifth grade they will have consumed porn for the first time on average, society continually tells them they suck basically, anytime a man needs helped he's basically mocked and told to deal with it, women are by and large leaving the dating scene to their own suffering, and society is better? I don't think so.
I think the one article listed 3s receiving the lionshare of the messages.I honestly appreciate the well-thoughtout response , let me just say that. And not only is Pew reliable... I actually got distracted reading their report thinking of responding you. I also looked into the Daily Collegian, Brookings and Vox articles that you sent. Thanks.
While it doesn't really mention appearance and vanity, it is true that, according to that study, over half of women are finding it hard to find someone that meets their expectations, as vague as that is. And that the singles gap is actually bigger and more in line with the disparity of dating apps too, with more single women than men not looking for dates at all. I didn't actually think the difference was that big. I stand corrected. Online dating sucks more places than I imagined.
I think there is an active campaign against manhood because it thought to make womenhood better you must denigrate men. Why? Because lifting both of them up is hard. It takes work. It isn't easy. It doesn't win votes in November. Make men that had 0 part in society being the way it is and tell them they suck from the day they are born. I am here to say men don't suck. I think the article basically said men aren't sending in applications (see what I said regarding schools) and therefore to have somewhat even numbers it is easier for men to get in. And notably people were pretty peeved about this. Somewhat ironic considering in other instances like Asians applying they don't seem to care but whatever. Double standards will double standard.Call me a walking cognitive dissonance but I feel like the meaning of "gender roles have switched" and "men being devalued" feels very different than "men/boys are being left behind in education". The former feels like the gender roles were necessarily better in the past or that there is an active campaign against manhood. There is an active campaign for womenhood and yeah those stats are sad and worrying.
Especially since men complaining about our gender-specific issues aren't super in vogue right now. I think I remember agree with a Jordan Peterson (?) speech about this, how more teachers are now women and how they are treating girls more favorably in schools. It's a sad and yeah urgent systemic problem that I too wish was being discussed more often. Of course it's not that simple since there are so many other factors too (as your links do describe) but the imbalance is definitely there.
Not going to lie I find the university admission process in the US kinda weird. In Brazil we have kind of a nation-wide SAT and you just compete with other people interested in the university based off that score. Some universities have their own tests but they're almost all standardized or the cheap private colleges just let anyone in. The fact that applications that are judged on a case-by-case basis and also have to be actively non-judgemental or proactively inclusive is so weird.
Ehh you are looking at as a numbers game without needing too. There's apps with a skew towards women being the dominate party in the dating app sphere. Not dominate but bumble has a better ratio then say tinder. I agree it is bullshit. And above is the reasons why. Men are being devalued significantly. I am just saying I don't like it. It should stop. That is why.I feel like we relatively agree on the stats and are approaching this from different angles. Maybe my dating experience (through friends/school/work, not online dating) is more optimistic and yours is understandably more pessimistic. I just don't like the almost antagonistic vibe I get sometimes.
I'm not going to jumble the numbers too much, but I still feel like it's possible to be relatively positive still. There is at least a 2-to-1 gender imbalance. That's still pretty good. You only need to be better than one average dude, and let's be honest, average dude can be pretty mediocre. There still are a large portion of the women dating that are finding success. It's a goddamn dumbass numbers game that everyone is playing, and I agree it's bullshit, and so does everyone else. But maybe it's not the end of the world.
I'm not sure how things get better other than hope. How do we make online dating and other experiences "more human" where big tech got us by the balls? I don't know. But love is still out there.