Did humans made the world much more hostile than environment ever did?

[R_N]

Sure there are some natural disasters that are brutal and wild animals that could hurt you but the threat of alienation seems bigger than anything else to me. And rules that society placed upon us.

It drives humans to isolate themselves even when threat is not physical in nature. And the burden of rules and power humans have over the rest keep us in "check" like some cattle to feed on.

And we are just supposed to accept this and play by the rules.

Crazy.

 

[sserafim]

Sure there are some natural disasters that are brutal and wild animals that could hurt you but the threat of alienation seems bigger than anything else to me. And rules that society placed upon us.

It drives humans to isolate themselves even when threat is not physical in nature. And the burden of rules and power humans have over the rest keep us in "check" like some cattle to feed on.

And we are just supposed to accept this and play by the rules.

Crazy.

I agree. I think that humans made the world much more hostile than nature ever intended. This is evident from the creation of artificial systems and structures (which require you to conform), like society. It feels like we're just parts of the giant capitalist machine that does its thing over and over again. If you don't conform, you'll be shunned and ostracized. I hate that we have to follow these arbitrary rules. The fact that humans made it cost money to exist on this horrible planet is absurd to me. The fact that they invented money and capitalism is evil.

Humans are also hostile to each other. People actively exclude those who are different from them and some people are just mean to others.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I've always viewed the world as being one huge predatory system.
There is the predatory system of nature, and the predatory system that is inflicted upon us by governments, corporations and religion.
I find these man - made concepts far more insidious and oppressive than anything in the natural world.

 

[sserafim]

I've always viewed the world as being one huge predatory system.
There is the predatory system of nature, and the predatory system that is inflicted upon us by governments, corporations and religion.
I find these man - made concepts far more insidious and oppressive than anything in the natural world.

It really is. I completely agree. I think that these artificial, man-made concepts are much more oppressive and cause so much more suffering. Why do you think they're more insidious than anything in nature? Is it the fact that we're "intelligent" beings, yet are still being oppressed by these systems? Also, that the predators and the prey are the same species? I hate the fact that the world is run by predators and we're just the prey. I hate the predatory nature of the world.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

It really is.

I find humans to be the most frightening animals of all.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

I've always regarded the human world as completely alien, hostile, dangerous, enervating, stifling, and toxic. Not only is the anthropogenic environment highly toxic on a physical level (e.g. various forms of pollution, high spread of communicable diseases, humans injuring and killing each other; ect.), but also on a psychological level in ways far greater than the natural world. This applies to all human societies and groups regardless of time period, location, population size, culture, social structure and dynamics; ect. The detrimental aspects of the anthropogenic world stem from incorrigible characteristics found in most humans, including limited and selective empathy; high territoriality, high competitiveness, egotism, anthropocentrism, greed, arrogance, sadism, predatory nature, and the insatiable desire for manipulation, domination, and exploitation.

Also, that the predators and the prey are the same species?

I find humans to be the most frightening animals of all.

These two points remind me of my favorite Latin proverb: "Homo homini lupus." It translates to "Man is wolf to man."

 

[Mistiie]

It really depends from which angle you view it from: the normal human angle, or the abnormal human angle.

From the normal human perspective, life is fine. That's kind of obvious. Most people go about their days with not a care in the world. No thoughts of depression, no major anxiety, no panic attacks, no hostility towards the world or fear of their own thoughts. They just live, and that will likely be all they ever do, until one day they rot and return to the Earth. Civilisation has made life better for them, and the environment would've killed them off before any of them reached 50 or so, or at least the vast majority, as a result of predators and whatnot.

From the abnormal human perspective, it's completely different. By abnormal, I mean anyone contemplating suicide, with mental or physical disorders, just anything that deviates them from the norm. Civilisation has made these lives hell on Earth, and I don't think there is a more apt description of it. In the wilderness, you, at the very least, had the ability to go out in a quick manner. Do something heinous, someone kills you, that's it. In an even more primitive environment, you're probably going to die of some disease or predator ruining your body or mauling you respectively before you get to the point that you start to have dreadful thoughts. And even then, prior to civilisation, or at least prior to sapience, we weren't even smart enough to feel like dogshit and want to commit suicide, outside of instinctual desire. But in civilisation, and as sapience has taken hold and proven itself to be the accidental apex of evolution, your suffering is prolonged. You aren't permitted death and legally haven't been until the last few decades and, even them, you have to go through a lengthy process to go for it. Want to buy an opiate to CTB on? Tough shit, it's illegal. Finally get your hands on some? You might either fail, or you might be guilt-tripped into not taking the plunge. Anyone struggling with depression or just having a shitty life are forced to live it out regardless of what you want. If you die, that's one less cog to turn society (potentially). One less cog to squeeze money into the rich man's pocket, one less cog to mindlessly consume media and food and suffer until your pleasant demise. That is what the experience is from the abnormal human perspective. In this instance, in short, yes, civilisation and humanity's sapience/lust/ego/stubbornness made the world into hell on Earth.

 

[theslasher]

These are all very interesting thoughts, and I agree with some of you to an extent, but also not really.

I've always viewed the world as being one huge predatory system.
There is the predatory system of nature, and the predatory system that is inflicted upon us by governments, corporations and religion.
I find these man - made concepts far more insidious and oppressive than anything in the natural world.

I mean obviously humans are cruel, but most of us don't eat our children, at least I'd hope not. Cannibalism is common place among a handful of animal species, especially in regards to their own off spring.

I've always regarded the human world as completely alien, hostile, dangerous, enervating, stifling, and toxic. Not only is the anthropogenic environment highly toxic on a physical level (e.g. various forms of pollution, high spread of communicable diseases, humans injuring and killing each other; ect.), but also on a psychological level in ways far greater than the natural world. This applies to all human societies and groups regardless of time period, location, population size, culture, social structure and dynamics; ect. The detrimental aspects of the anthropogenic world stem from incorrigible characteristics found in most humans, including limited and selective empathy; high territoriality, high competitiveness, egotism, anthropocentrism, greed, arrogance, sadism, predatory nature, and the insatiable desire for manipulation, domination, and exploitation.

I get what you're saying, but no offense you used more long words than necessary and I'd also have to disagree on some of your points. Obviously you're right about humans negative impact of the environment, and you're right we are quite cruel to each other, that's nothing new. But, humans are not the only animal species that kill their own kind.. this is even more common place among other animals. It's common for animals to kill their own family members. Imagine if your siblings took a knife and just stabbed you, cooked you up, and ate you... Well, shark embryos cannibalize their siblings as well as unfertilized eggs in the womb. Meerkats have a 1/5 chance of dying from their own kind, often from their own family members, all types of animals murder each other over land or sexual mates. This is true for birds, toads, insects of all kinds, so many other animals... it's incredibly common. Humans aren't even in the top 30 for animals most likely to kill their own kind.

From the abnormal human perspective, it's completely different. By abnormal, I mean anyone contemplating suicide, with mental or physical disorders, just anything that deviates them from the norm. Civilisation has made these lives hell on Earth, and I don't think there is a more apt description of it. In the wilderness, you, at the very least, had the ability to go out in a quick manner. Do something heinous, someone kills you, that's it. In an even more primitive environment, you're probably going to die of some disease or predator ruining your body or mauling you respectively before you get to the point that you start to have dreadful thoughts. And even then, prior to civilisation, or at least prior to sapience, we weren't even smart enough to feel like dogshit and want to commit suicide, outside of instinctual desire. But in civilisation, and as sapience has taken hold and proven itself to be the accidental apex of evolution, your suffering is prolonged. You aren't permitted death and legally haven't been until the last few decades and, even them, you have to go through a lengthy process to go for it. Want to buy an opiate to CTB on? Tough shit, it's illegal. Finally get your hands on some? You might either fail, or you might be guilt-tripped into not taking the plunge. Anyone struggling with depression or just having a shitty life are forced to live it out regardless of what you want. If you die, that's one less cog to turn society (potentially). One less cog to squeeze money into the rich man's pocket, one less cog to mindlessly consume media and food and suffer until your pleasant demise. That is what the experience is from the abnormal human perspective. In this instance, in short, yes, civilisation and humanity's sapience/lust/ego/stubbornness made the world into hell on Earth.

I guess from the abnormal perspective yes you are right. Hmm, I don't think people who want to stop you from killing yourself are doing so from a place of bad intent, however maybe there is some truth in a way since this ideology has been engrained into us since the invention of the bible. And we all know that book is filled with immoral things. It is odd how humans living in tribes are far less likely to be suicidal. Our brains have evolved for so many years to optimize for a certain way. Now things are changing and our brains are clearly not used to this on a macro scale. It's like our enhanced ability to think brought about great opportunity to experience joy, but also great opportunity to experience depression. Anyways, It makes sense your point of things being less cruel in the animal kingdom due to the fact that their death doesn't take long, whereas the death of humans can take years through the process of suicidal ideation. A slow and painful death. Not sure if I'd blame any particular humans for this, it's just a natural and unfortunate byproduct of our evolution. But I'm no expert your "cog in the wheel" explanation could hold some to truth to it.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

I get what you're saying, but no offense you used more long words than necessary and I'd also have to disagree on some of your points. Obviously you're right about humans negative impact of the environment, and you're right we are quite cruel to each other, that's nothing new. But, humans are not the only animal species that kill their own kind.. this is even more common place among other animals. It's common for animals to kill their own family members. Imagine if your siblings took a knife and just stabbed you, cooked you up, and ate you... Well, shark embryos cannibalize their siblings as well as unfertilized eggs in the womb. Meerkats have a 1/5 chance of dying from their own kind, often from their own family members, all types of animals murder each other over land or sexual mates. This is true for birds, toads, insects of all kinds, so many other animals... it's incredibly common. Humans aren't even in the top 30 for animals most likely to kill their own kind.

Yes, I am aware of countless organisms killing conspecifics and many animal species regularly engaging in cannibalism, including your example of intrauterine cannibalism in sand tiger sharks. There are even species where the offspring consume their own parents. Matriphagy, where offspring eat their own mothers, has been observed in a few species of insects, arachnids, nematodes, and caecilians.

Despite humans not regularly practicing cannibalism, I still think they and their civilizations are hostile, detrimental, and dangerous in other ways different from nature. Particularly, the psychologically toxic effects they have on one another. Granted, many animal species experience fears, phobias, and even PTSD from the terrifying occurrences of nature. There are also parasites, viruses, and prions that can hijack brains. However, the methods, motives, intentions, and impacts of humans manipulating, exploiting, and destroying each other's minds are disturbing on a different level.

All in all, between the boundless suffering in both the natural world and the human world, I would rather not exist. Period.

 

[theslasher]

Yes, I am aware of countless organisms killing conspecifics and many animal species regularly engaging in cannibalism, including your example of intrauterine cannibalism in sand tiger sharks. There are even species where the offspring consume their own parents. Matriphagy, where offspring eat their own mothers, has been observed in a few species of insects, arachnids, nematodes, and caecilians.

Despite humans not regularly practicing cannibalism, I still think they and their civilizations are hostile, detrimental, and dangerous in other ways different from nature. Particularly, the psychologically toxic effects they have on one another. Granted, many animal species experience fears, phobias, and even PTSD from the terrifying occurrences of nature. There are also parasites, viruses, and prions that can hijack brains. However, the methods, motives, intentions, and impacts of humans manipulating, exploiting, and destroying each other's minds are disturbing on a different level.

All in all, between the boundless suffering in both the natural world and the human world, I would rather not exist. Period.

That makes sense. Sorry I didn't mean to come at you personally in my last post but yeah you're right humans are quite cruel in many different ways.

I guess my main point is that I don't think us humans should go too far down the path of thinking humans are the worst thing ever in comparison to everything else. Because if we go too far down that path then we'll say things like "all humans should die" which a lot of people on this website tend to think and I don't agree with.