Controversial opinion. Willing to debate it.

[Sleeper System]

The cure for people who want to commit suicide has already been discovered and implimented.
If you look at it from a statistical prospective you can clearly see that more people want to live than die.
Just based on the results alone without any research into individual circumstances.
You then feel the urge to ask yourself " Well.. how can that be? I'm not a super genius but it's very clear that
life is a struggle for the vast majority of people. So why aren't more poeple resigning to the fact that it's all pointless?"
Excluding the people who express the thoughts but don't go through with them, most people just carry along regardless of the futility.

I've come to believe that the answer for suicide in society is gentle oppression.
We give you the ability/oppotunity to have the bare minimum of essentials and you become complacent.
You want to die but you kind of can keep going because you're not starving or in the elements like in the olden times.
Suicide is a first world problem in many aspects. Some cultures can't even fathom the idea.

So to circle back, in my opinion, the cure is oppression. Suicide is a choice.
If you take that choice away from people you will find that most people want to live no matter what their life is like.
The minute someone tells you that you will die because they want it and you have no choice in the matter, you will quickly realize.
The fact that for most people it's a choice has a lot to do with why they even consider it in the first place.

I could be wrong but I really don't think I am.
I would excluded religious and spiritual people as they place their beliefs in faith.
More for the scientific leaning folks and atheists I would imagine. It makes some sense at least.

 

[edu0z]

The problem with suicide today is that we live in a weak society, and I refer to the facts. We live in a world where every day you see how young people are taught that they must "fight for their rights", that they have many "rights", but where are the obligations?... the traditional family is despised, no one wants to have children. Are your parents old? put them in a nursing home, people make fun of you? report them to the police. In a world without responsibilities full of weak people, it is normal to see life as meaningless... And personally I think that people who see life as meaningless without something serious happening to them to justify it, are just bored.

 

[Lupgevif]

The problem with suicide today is that we live in a weak society, and I refer to the facts. We live in a world where every day you see how young people are taught that they must "fight for their rights", that they have many "rights", but where are the obligations?... the traditional family is despised, no one wants to have children. Are your parents old? put them in a nursing home, people make fun of you? report them to the police. In a world without responsibilities full of weak people, it is normal to see life as meaningless... And personally I think that people who see life as meaningless without something serious happening to them to justify it, are just bored.

Boredom? That's what you think causes suicide? Then I guess you have a very precious, privileged life yourself, for not being able to understand why other people also want to kill themselves.

 

[tinyghost]

We give you the ability/oppotunity to have the bare minimum of essentials and you become complacent.
You want to die but you kind of can keep going because you're not starving or in the elements like in the olden times.
Suicide is a first world problem in many aspects. Some cultures can't even fathom the idea.

i agree that this might prevent some suicides, but im not sure its in the way you present. a lot of people are suicidal due to not having their basic needs met, or having to live through traumatic situations to have their basic needs met. so what that they are in a "first world country" when they are being severely abuse or live in the streets? so giving people their basic needs as a human right could definitely help not only prevent suicide but solve a lot of problems with modern society

So to circle back, in my opinion, the cure is oppression. Suicide is a choice.
If you take that choice away from people you will find that most people want to live no matter what their life is like.

im not sure i understand. are you saying only privileged people want to commit suicide?

The minute someone tells you that you will die because they want it and you have no choice in the matter, you will quickly realize.
The fact that for most people it's a choice has a lot to do with why they even consider it in the first place.

two days ago i had a heart attack and did not go to the er because i wanted it to kill me. i wasnt my choice to have a severe medical emergency, but i let it happen without intervention because i wanted to die. i guess i have no idea how common this is among suicidal people but it does happen.

 

[Sleeper System]

Boredom? That's what you think causes suicide? Then I guess you have a very precious, privileged life yourself, for not being able to understand why other people also want to kill themselves.

I think there is some truth to that.
In other cultures, just surviving is such a struggle that there is no time to even think about killing yourself.
Imagine being so busy hustling and working that when you finally catch a break all you want to do is sleep I can't even fathom trying to take your life.
The saying "Idle hands are devils play thing" can lend weight to the idea that sometimes people do have too much time on their hands.

 

[Lupgevif]

I think there is some truth to that.
In other cultures, just surviving is such a struggle that there is no time to even think about killing yourself.
Imagine being so busy hustling and working that when you finally catch a break all you want to do is sleep I can't even fathom trying to take your life.
The saying "Idle hands are devils play thing" can lend weight to the idea that sometimes people do have too much time on their hands.

You are just assuming and generalizing things. You don't know how such busy people view life, and plenty of them do end up killing themselves, Japanese people and toxic office culture being a good example of that.

 

[Sleeper System]

i agree that this might prevent some suicides, but im not sure its in the way you present. a lot of people are suicidal due to not having their basic needs met, or having to live through traumatic situations to have their basic needs met. so what that they are in a "first world country" when they are being severely abuse or live in the streets? so giving people their basic needs as a human right could definitely help not only prevent suicide but solve a lot of problems with modern society


im not sure i understand. are you saying only privileged people want to commit suicide?


two days ago i had a heart attack and did not go to the er because i wanted it to kill me. i wasnt my choice to have a severe medical emergency, but i let it happen without intervention because i wanted to die. i guess i have no idea how common this is among suicidal people but it does happen.

I assume you were already suicidal to some degree prior to the heart attack? You made the choice not fight it even though the circumstances weren't of your own making. That's different. That's your body essentially betraying you. Not someone taking the choice away. It's slightly different.

 

[tinyghost]

I assume you were already suicidal to some degree prior to the heart attack? You made the choice not fight it even though the circumstances weren't of your own making. That's different. That's your body essentially betraying you. Not someone taking the choice away. It's slightly different.

yes i was assuming the people you were talking about were also suicidal. it is slightly different but its like fighting for your life vs giving up. i thought you meant people would fight for their life instead of just give up, but i dont think thats always true because i wouldnt

 

[Sleeper System]

You are just assuming and generalizing things. You don't know how such busy people view life, and plenty of them do end up killing themselves, you Japanese people and toxic office culture being a good example of that.

You make a good point. However, generalization speaks to vast majority and minority so it's the only wide scale bases for measuring this sort of thing. Do more people who are busy end of killing themselves than people with too much time? What would you say is the most likely to be true?

 

[Lupgevif]

You make a good point. However, generalization speaks to vast majority and minority so it's the only wide scale bases for measuring this sort of thing. Do more people who are busy end of killing themselves than people with too much time? What would you say is the most likely to be true?

I would say there is no point in answering this question. Every suicidal person has their reason, and trying to blame it on weakness and boredom like edu0z did is heartless and selfish. In the end of the day, their "plea" for a less sensitive society that have more children and doesn't send their parents to the nursing home will not help anyone. Also: "people make fun of you? report them to the police". Lmao.

 

[Sleeper System]

yes i was assuming the people you were talking about were also suicidal. it is slightly different but its like fighting for your life vs giving up. i thought you meant people would fight for their life instead of just give up, but i dont think thats always true because i wouldnt

Imagine if someone said either you kill yourself within the method of options they prescribe right now, they kill you in the most painful way possible themselves, or you walk away unharmed and can chose how you die another day. Which would you chose?

 

[tinyghost]

Imagine if someone said either you kill yourself within the method of options they prescribe right now, they kill you in the most painful way possible themselves, or you walk away unharmed and can chose how you die another day. Which would you chose?

but this is giving me a choice.... does that not defeat the point?

 

[Sleeper System]

but this is giving me a choice.... does that not defeat the point?

They're options. The choice is an illusion. You're locked in a situation where they have control over two options and you have an option you can chose but they control the choices.

 

[edu0z]

I would say there is no point in answering this question. Every suicidal person has their reason, and trying to blame it on weakness and boredom like edu0z did is heartless and selfish. In the end of the day, their "plea" for a less sensitive society that have more children and doesn't send their parents to the nursing home will not help anyone. Also: "people make fun of you? report them to the police". Lmao.

Thank you, but I'm not speaking with my feelings, I'm speaking with the facts. Every year the cases of suicide increase, in Spain since 2020 suicide has been the cause of unnatural death that causes the most deaths in the country, and at the same time studies reveal that more than 30% of people between 20-50 years old live in solitude... another person spoke about Japan, Japan has a very widespread culture of suicide, they see suicide in a different way than we do in the West.

 

[Lupgevif]

Thank you, but I'm not speaking with my feelings, I'm speaking with the facts. Every year the cases of suicide increase, in Spain since 2020 suicide has been the cause of unnatural death that causes the most deaths in the country, and at the same time studies reveal that more than 30% of people between 20-50 years old live in solitude... another person spoke about Japan, Japan has a very widespread culture of suicide, they see suicide in a different way than we do in the West.

And what does solitude have to do with a weak society?

 

[tinyghost]

They're options. The choice is an illusion. You're locked in a situation where they have control over two options and you have an option you can chose but they control the choices.

but i can choose to die when i want? cant i already do that? okay what other methods will the killer let me choose from?

 

[noneed]

They're options. The choice is an illusion. You're locked in a situation where they have control over two options and you have an option you can chose but they control the choices.

I'm sure old and disabled people in hunter gathered civilizations think about killing themselves but have a belonging of a tight knit group that prevents them from ever feeling that way.

 

[edu0z]

And what does solitude have to do with a weak society?

400 years ago you were born into a family (most likely poor), you grew up with it, then you grew up, you took up a job or you took the place of your parents but you did not separate from the family nucleus. 100 years ago you separated from the family unit just to start your own family. Nowadays, look at how society works, people don't want to have children, young people prefer the company of social networks or some moron on YouTube. You don't want to respect your family or have responsibilities? Well, take solitude. Societies are Complex Adaptive Systems, and you can never know for sure what will happen when a change occurs... well, this is what happens.

 

[noneed]

400 years ago you were born into a family (most likely poor), you grew up with it, then you grew up, you took up a job or you took the place of your parents but you did not separate from the family nucleus. 100 years ago you separated from the family unit just to start your own family. Nowadays, look at how society works, people don't want to have children, young people prefer the company of social networks or some moron on YouTube. You don't want to respect your family or have responsibilities? Well, take solitude. Societies are Complex Adaptive Systems, and you can never know for sure what will happen when a change occurs... well, this is what happens.

Hunter gather societies take /took better care of their elderly and disabled than modern society . There's archeological evidence of this.

 

[Lupgevif]

400 years ago you were born into a family (most likely poor), you grew up with it, then you grew up, you took up a job or you took the place of your parents but you did not separate from the family nucleus. 100 years ago you separated from the family unit just to start your own family. Nowadays, look at how society works, people don't want to have children, young people prefer the company of social networks or some moron on YouTube. You don't want to respect your family or have responsibilities? Well, take solitude. Societies are Complex Adaptive Systems, and you can never know for sure what will happen when a change occurs... well, this is what happens.

Yeah, more assumption and generalization of lives you know nothing about. You are free to believe in whatever you want, but I think I will just withdraw from this conversation.

 

[noneed]

400 years ago you were born into a family (most likely poor), you grew up with it, then you grew up, you took up a job or you took the place of your parents but you did not separate from the family nucleus. 100 years ago you separated from the family unit just to start your own family. Nowadays, look at how society works, people don't want to have children, young people prefer the company of social networks or some moron on YouTube. You don't want to respect your family or have responsibilities? Well, take solitude. Societies are Complex Adaptive Systems, and you can never know for sure what will happen when a change occurs... well, this is what h

Everything is overcomplicated now a days for no reason but now that I've experienced this level of comfort I don't think I could live like that.

 

[ropearoundatree]

I think that it's just a little bit of an over-simplification, in my view, even if it was a "well-thought out," one~
What about those who subscribe to the notion that suicidal depression - or major depressive disorder, let's just say for argument's sake - is a biological, medical condition? From the standpoint of diagnosis. And then on top of that, factor in environmental causes... There are those who are rich & famous, yet still commit the act: why is that? Or those who 'seemingly,' have it all! Spouse, Top-shelf job (lawyer, dr., whatever) & kids. Picture-perfect in every sense of. No one can find someone to utter a bad word about them. Then they still go through with it. How might that be explained? Simple "outliers?" I'd say it's more likely one or the other, if not both of those previous stated reasons most often attributed to this end result, feature, or function (sorry I am blanking on the word/or term).
And on the first-world problems. Perhaps that is the case, I really don't know. I have no empirical evidence to back this up. But whenever I read of the countries that have the highest suicide rates in the world - they often stress, or emphasize, "...in the First World." Which, I had always taken to mean (maybe incorrectly?) that it was far worse off in those who were not in such countries. For instance, if there was no hope. No realistic chance for a meaningful life, let alone survival. Just uneducated guesses, and hunches - I realize. As I try to put or place myself in their/those shoes (that of say, a Third World country). How could I not just, "Give up?" Again--I may be naive, or nonchalant in the matter. Perhaps even looking at it through too cavalier a 'lens?' I really don't know. Just trying to offer some potential counters to your argument.

 

[edu0z]

Yeah, more assumption and generalization of lives you know nothing about. You are free to believe in whatever you want, but I think I will just withdraw from this conversation.

We are more than 8,000,000,000 people, of course I must make generalizations... Do you know the life of each one of the more than 8,000,000,000 people who live on the planet?

 

[noneed]

I think that it's just a little bit of an over-simplification, in my view, even if it was a "well-thought out," one~
What about those who subscribe to the notion that suicidal depression - or major depressive disorder, let's just say for argument's sake - is a biological, medical condition? From the standpoint of diagnosis. And then on top of that, factor in environmental causes... There are those who are rich & famous, yet still commit the act: why is that? Or those who 'seemingly,' have it all! Spouse, Top-shelf job (lawyer, dr., whatever) & kids. Picture-perfect in every sense of. No one can find someone to utter a bad word about them. Then they still go through with it. How might that be explained? Simple "outliers?" I'd say it's more likely one or the other, if not both of those previous stated reasons most often attributed to this end result, feature, or function (sorry I am blanking on the word/or term).

I agree but your second example could be countered with let's say this person had unresolved trauma , repressed it to build a "perfect life" then in a state of comfort never developed emotionally and has stayed in a lingering mindset just to snap one day.i think mental illness has both biological and environmental factors but the environment is still doing 99% of the work because it's the cause of the genetic predisposition being activated.

 

[ropearoundatree]

I agree but your second example could be countered with let's say this person had unresolved trauma , repressed it to build a "perfect life" then in a state of comfort never developed emotionally and has stayed in a lingering mindset just to snap one day.i think mental illness has both biological and environmental factors but the environment is still doing 99% of the work because it's the cause of the genetic predisposition being activated.

Very fair point that you've raised indeed. I may have oversimplified things myself!

Very fair point that you've raised indeed. I may have oversimplified things myself!

Some people, too, believe it not to be a result of genetics... & all-environment. Others have the opposite view. "Chicken & the egg..."

 

[edu0z]

I think that it's just a little bit of an over-simplification, in my view, even if it was a "well-thought out," one~
What about those who subscribe to the notion that suicidal depression - or major depressive disorder, let's just say for argument's sake - is a biological, medical condition? From the standpoint of diagnosis. And then on top of that, factor in environmental causes... There are those who are rich & famous, yet still commit the act: why is that? Or those who 'seemingly,' have it all! Spouse, Top-shelf job (lawyer, dr., whatever) & kids. Picture-perfect in every sense of. No one can find someone to utter a bad word about them. Then they still go through with it. How might that be explained? Simple "outliers?" I'd say it's more likely one or the other, if not both of those previous stated reasons most often attributed to this end result, feature, or function (sorry I am blanking on the word/or term).
And on the first-world problems. Perhaps that is the case, I really don't know. I have no empirical evidence to back this up. But whenever I read of the countries that have the highest suicide rates in the world - they often stress, or emphasize, "...in the First World." Which, I had always taken to mean (maybe incorrectly?) that it was far worse off in those who were not in such countries. For instance, if there was no hope. No realistic chance for a meaningful life, let alone survival. Just uneducated guesses, and hunches - I realize. As I try to put or place myself in their/those shoes (that of say, a Third World country). How could I not just, "Give up?" Again--I may be naive, or nonchalant in the matter. Perhaps even looking at it through too cavalier a 'lens?' I really don't know. Just trying to offer some potential counters to your argument.

I live in a third world country (Cuba), and the truth is that I do not know any adult who has committed suicide, at least in the capital... all the people who talk about suicide, in my adolescence, have been young people of between 13 to 20 years old and the majority for stupidly emotional reasons.... and I'm not trying to say that suicide is emotional nonsense, not at all, I'm very much in favor of being able to choose, but the point I want to make is that People who you might think are in greater need do not think about suicide, and it is simply because there is no room in their life for it. The neediest people I know (I include one of my best friends whose parents died in an accident and he became homeless as a teenager), do not think about suicide nor have they thought about it, because the only thing they have known practically since they were born was to fight.

 

[Morte]

I live in a third world country (Cuba), and the truth is that I do not know any adult who has committed suicide, at least in the capital... all the people who talk about suicide, in my adolescence, have been young people of between 13 to 20 years old and the majority for stupidly emotional reasons.... and I'm not trying to say that suicide is emotional nonsense, not at all, I'm very much in favor of being able to choose, but the point I want to make is that People who you might think are in greater need do not think about suicide, and it is simply because there is no room in their life for it. The neediest people I know (I include one of my best friends whose parents died in an accident and he became homeless as a teenager), do not think about suicide nor have they thought about it, because the only thing they have known practically since they were born was to fight.

anecdotal evidence means nothing, because your social circle does not make statistics.
People will always choose life over death, as they are instinctively programmed that way. Even on this forum, the suicide rate is low.So wherever you go, it will be rare to find cases of suicide and people rarely talk about how they really feel.
I read articles that say poverty is proportionally linked to suicide and the poorest countries are at the top of the lists.

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for your facts, I need sources, otherwise they are nothing more than headcanon

 

[R_N]

Not thinking about death doesn't make your life better. Not having time doesn't make your life less of a struggle. On contrary.

When I worked I was stressed out of my mind and more suicidal than I am now ironically, even when I was healthy then. I had to deal with human scum and my only serious attempt happened then because I couldn't do it anymore. On lunch breaks I would feel so depressed that it is not even possible to describe. I had to keep my composure regardless but I was breaking down emotionally. I wasn't allowed any peace.

And that was just work and being busy. When I look at my life besides that, school, college, relationships, being engaged never made me that content. I had issues most of my life, one kind or another and I suffered a lot. Now I have to deal with not being able to sleep properly for years but I am a hermit and that is the only reason it is bearable.

So no, I completely disagree with you. Being busy and around people would make me feel much worse. Only reason I am still here is because I can live like this for the time being and it gives me some kind of peace even in my condition. I am alone in my room but it is better with the devil you know.

 

[edu0z]

anecdotal evidence means nothing, because your social circle does not make statistics.
People will always choose life over death, as they are instinctively programmed that way. Even on this forum, the suicide rate is low.So wherever you go, it will be rare to find cases of suicide and people rarely talk about how they really feel.
I read articles that say poverty is proportionally linked to suicide and the poorest countries are at the top of the lists.

List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for your facts, I need sources, otherwise they are nothing more than headcanon

thanks god, someone with common sense

 

[Ashu]

We are more than 8,000,000,000 people, of course I must make generalizations...

You don't have to, actually. You don't gave to pontificate about the lives of people you know nothing about. Why do you want to?