Discussion Can people who think they can kill themselves kill others too?

[Sleeper System]

Murder and suicide have a lot in common. More than people dare to admit to themselves.
One is taking anothers life and the other is taking your own life. The lack of disregard is evident in both.
They both exist in a grey area of morality because they can both be justified given certain PARAMETERS.
However, one is illegal and the other can't be punished once the PERPETRATOR has suceeded.
It makes sense that one is a crime and the other is UNENFORCEABLE.
Funny enough, the punishment for murder can be murder. If that's not irony, I don't know what is.

I often think about being put in a position to have to take someones life.
Does the reason even matter if you don't believing in the law or society?
Regardless, the consequences if you're caught are very real.
Same with suicide. If you get caught failing... you're locked in a psychward and branded.

I guess Im of the mind that anyone who is capable of kiling themselves has the capacity to harm others.
If you can direct the death scythe at yourself then i'm sure it wouldn't take much to direct it in the other direction.
Many people have this stance that it doesn't matter what they do to themselves because it's their own body
but taking the choice of life from someone else some how tips the scales of guilt or accountability in favor of the former.
If you have no regard for your own life then the life of others seems trivial or at best is not in position to be admired or valued by you.

In summation... you have every right to kill yourself. The minute you make that choice you lose the right to judge or comment on anyone elses life choices.
As a suicidal person myself, I don't feel like I can judge killers. If I do, i'm happily contradicting myself. As long as others admit that they're hypocrites too.

 

[uzuf86]

The act of killing another person is unnecessary and is always a crime. Who are you to kill another being?
You can only murder one person in this world and that is your own self.

 

[John-Doe]

If you have no regard for your own life then the life of others seems trivial or at best is not in position to be admired or valued by you.

I disagree. I want to kill myself to end my suffering, that doesn't mean I hold no regard for others lives or view them as trivial. I have no right to end people's lives just because I'm not enjoying my own, and I think the vast majority of suicidal people feel the same. This line of logic is kind of like saying "if you're a drug user than you shouldn't have an issue with spiking other people's drinks." I could be misinterpreting your point so feel free to correct me.

 

[Sleeper System]

The act of killing another person is unnecessary and is always a crime. Who are you to kill another being?

Who are you to kill yourself? You didn't give yourself life. At least get consent from your parents first. (joke)
" I'm the one who has to live this life so ultimately it's my decision."
You said the act of killing another person is unnessesary... that's kind of interesting. Where do you draw the line?
If someone kills the person you love or violates them or harms an innocent person... your position is to stand firm and do nothing? O_O
Crime is a societal concept not one found in nature. Killing can feel both right and wrong. Even chimps know that much. The worse mammals in terms of violence.

I disagree. I want to kill myself to end my suffering, that doesn't mean I hold no regard for others lives or view them as trivial. I have no right to end people's lives just because I'm not enjoying my own, and I think the vast majority of suicidal people feel the same. This line of logic is kind of like saying "if you're a drug user than you shouldn't have an issue with spiking other people's drinks." I could be misinterpreting your point so feel free to correct me.

I don't think you have the right to speak on life when yours means so little to you.
(Edit: I don't feel like I have a right to speak about life when mine means so little too)
Obviously folks can think what they want but I don't feel like the words hold weight for some reason.
This thread was meant for debate so really I don't think there has a right or wrong response.
Just people having different stances.

 

[Guy_Smiley]

Murder and suicide have a lot in common. More than people dare to admit to themselves.
One is taking anothers life and the other is taking your own life. The lack of disregard is evident in both.
They both exist in a grey area of morality because they can both be justified given certain PARAMETERS.
However, one is illegal and the other can't be punished once the PERPETRATOR has suceeded.
It makes sense that one is a crime and the other is UNENFORCEABLE.
Funny enough, the punishment for murder can be murder. If that's not irony, I don't know what is.

I often think about being put in a position to have to take someones life.
Does the reason even matter if you don't believing in the law or society?
Regardless, the consequences if you're caught are very real.
Same with suicide. If you get caught failing... you're locked in a psychward and branded.

I guess Im of the mind that anyone who is capable of kiling themselves has the capacity to harm others.
If you can direct the death scythe at yourself then i'm sure it wouldn't take much to direct it in the other direction.
Many people have this stance that it doesn't matter what they do to themselves because it's their own body
but taking the choice of life from someone else some how tips the scales of guilt or accountability in favor of the former.
If you have no regard for your own life then the life of others seems trivial or at best is not in position to be admired or valued by you.

In summation... you have every right to kill yourself. The minute you make that choice you lose the right to judge or comment on anyone elses life choices.
As a suicidal person myself, I don't feel like I can judge killers. If I do, i'm happily contradicting myself. As long as others admit that they're hypocrites too.

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Taking one's own life is very different than taking someone else's. A person's life is their own and thus it's theirs to end if they wish. Anyone else's life does not belong to them and thus is not for them to choose to end (except for in extreme cases, e.g. war, self-defense, etc).

 

[uzuf86]

Who are you to kill yourself? You didn't give yourself life. At least get consent from your parents first. (joke)
" I'm the one who has to live this life so ultimately it's my decision."
You said the act of killing another person is unnessesary... that's kind of interesting. Where do you draw the line?
If someone kills the person you love or violates them or harms an innocent person... your position is to stand firm and do nothing? O_O
Crime is a societal concept not one found in nature. Killing can feel both right and wrong. Even chimps know that much. The worse mammals in terms of violence.

I don't think you have the right to speak on life when yours means so little to you.
(Edit: I don't feel like I have a right to speak about life when mine means so little too)
Obviously folks can think what they want but I don't feel like the words hold weight for some reason.
This thread was meant for debate so really I don't think there has a right or wrong response.
Just people having different stances.

You don't give yourself life, but you still own your own life and your own body. You are a separate being from others.
Killing others as a form of revenge/retaliation is another topic. You mention that you cannot judge killers, which sounds wrong.
Unless we're talking about extreme measures of self-defense, there is no reasonable need to kill anyone.

 

[wCvML2]

Many people "who think" they can kill themelves struggle to overcome SI sometimes for decades. If you're comparing it to murder, then the same people who struggle with SI would have the instinct also hold them from killing others, overthinking everything and that makes them shitty criminals if they pursued that path.

 

[Sleeper System]

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Taking one's own life is very different than taking someone else's. A person's life is their own and thus it's theirs to end if they wish. Anyone else's life does not belong to them and thus is not for them to choose to end (except for in extreme cases, e.g. war, self-defense, etc).

Where does it say that you have the right to take your own life? You didn't give it to yourself. You didn't earn it. What right do you have to call it yours? O_O
We're all slaves to the world and at the mercy of reality. Nature shows this to be a universal truth. It's only the awareness of self and effort that give rise
to the concept of possesion. If you can take something then you can make it yours. If you can make something then you can give it.

You don't give yourself life, but you still own your own life and your own body. You are a separate being from others.
Killing others as a form of revenge/retaliation is another topic. You mention that you cannot judge killers, which sounds wrong.
Unless we're talking about extreme measures of self-defense, there is no reasonable need to kill anyone.

But I don't think we own anything. Least of all our own lives. Thinking you are seperate from others and yet observing that we're all of the same ingredience just prepared differenlty is just proof that self awareness is giving us a false perception of self. O_O I don't agree with you on that.
I also think there are many valid reasons to kill besides just self defense.
I would even say that the one and only condemnable reason to kill is for the purpose of entertainment only.
Everything else is speculative.

Many people "who think" they can kill themelves struggle to overcome SI sometimes for decades. If you're comparing it to murder, then the same people who struggle with SI would have the instinct also hold them from killing others, overthinking everything and that makes them shitty criminals if they pursued that path.

So you agree. It's the same concept with different struggles. Those people are shitty criminals and we are shitty self terminators. lol

 

[uzuf86]

Where does it say that you have the right to take your own life? You didn't give it to yourself. You didn't earn it. What right do you have to call it yours? O_O
We're all slaves to the world and at the mercy of reality. Nature shows this to be a universal truth. It's only the awareness of self and effort that give rise
to the concept of possesion. If you can take something then you can make it yours. If you can make something then you can give it.

Nobody "earns" life. You have the right to call your life "yours" because only you can set a direction for it. Nobody else can.
Some people move up in life, some people move down, some people go into depression (like me), and some people deal with a whole lot of problems.
You have the right to end your own life because you are a single unit in the world, and killing yourself doesn't disrupt anyone else's plans in this world.
Unlike me and you there are others who desire to live a happy, fulfilling life.

 

[Sleeper System]

I'm not advocating for murder or murderers for clarification.
Only commenting on certain psychological similarities and the right to judge life in deference to the value we place on it.

 

[John-Doe]

I don't think you have the right to speak on life when yours means so little to you.

I don't view my own life as trivial either, suicide isn't a small decision for me. Ideally I'd overcome my issues and keep living, that just doesn't seem plausible. Even if it did mean nothing to me though, can you elaborate on why that would bar me from having morals about other's? The morality of killing someone doesn't magically change because I'm depressed, my beliefs are consistent no matter how I feel.

The ethics of killing someone are situational. Just because I feel my life should end doesn't mean others should too. I believe you can kill someone in self defense, but shouldn't murder innocents for fun. Is that somehow inconsistent because I believe there's one scenario where you can take a life and another where you shouldn't? You're vastly overgeneralizing things when you say "because you want to end your own life, you have to say all life has no value." More importantly, doing harmful things to yourself are completely different than non-consensually doing them to others. Once again, I'm sure you wouldn't say doing drugs is the same as forcefully drugging others.

 

[Doemu]

I used to want to kill others. But now I don't want to anyone more suffer, so I'm not sure if someone who take time to plan their own suicide could want to still damage anyone.

 

[Sleeper System]

Nobody "earns" life. You have the right to call your life "yours" because only you can set a direction for it. Nobody else can.
Some people move up in life, some people move down, some people go into depression (like me), and some people deal with a whole lot of problems.
You have the right to end your own life because you are a single unit in the world, and killing yourself doesn't disrupt anyone else's plans in this world.
Unlike me and you there are others who desire to live a happy, fulfilling life.

You earn life by being productive in and with it. You earn a living. That's literally a phrase people use.
Others can also set your direction for you. It's not always only on you. Soldiers for example and any proffesion where you have to learn to excel.
Your direction can be guided by others and you just move accordingly.
Killing yourself does indeed effect the world in the eyes of the world which is why it's frowned upon and taboo.
Exactly. Those people have a right to judge life. THEY can say murder is wrong this that and the third.
We can too but it holds far less weight than someone who values life speaking on life opposed to the opposite.

I don't view my own life as trivial either, suicide isn't a small decision for me. Ideally I'd overcome my issues and keep living, that just doesn't seem plausible. Even if it did mean nothing to me though, can you elaborate on why that would bar me from having morals about other's? The morality of killing someone doesn't magically change because I'm depressed, my beliefs are consistent no matter how I feel.

The ethics of killing someone are situational. Just because I feel my life should end doesn't mean others should too. I believe you can kill someone in self defense, but shouldn't murder innocents for fun. Is that somehow inconsistent because I believe there's one scenario where you can take a life and another where you shouldn't? You're vastly overgeneralizing things when you say "because you want to end your own life, you have to say all life has no value." More importantly, doing harmful things to yourself are completely different than non-consensually doing them to others. Once again, I'm sure you wouldn't say doing drugs is the same as forcefully drugging others.

Wouldn't that mean you are betraying your own beliefs by allowing them to apply to others but not to yourself?
That alone is reason to bar someone in my opinion. That's like an obese fitness training telling you to control your cravings. Like, what?
All i'm saying is we're hypocritical in that way and it's ok. Just as long as we don't go around being self righteous and pretentious about life.
I would simply say... yeah I think that person is wrong but Im not in a possesion for my judgement to be the deciding factor in condemning someone.

I used to want to kill others. But now I don't want to anyone more suffer, so I'm not sure if someone who take time to plan their own suicide could want to still damage anyone.

I never wanted to kill anyone. I just feel like there is something in me sleeping that could do it if I had to.
Yeah, I don't think we'd want to waste our time and effort on someone else when that same drive could be applied and put to better use CTBing.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I swear you've made a post about killing people before. It was something about understanding people who kill their families and then themselves.

If you have no regard for your own life then the life of others seems trivial or at best is not in position to be admired or valued by you.

Disagree, I only want to end my own suffering. I'm not suicidal because I think all life is worthless, I just want to be out of my own pain.

 

[Doemu]

For me isn't about taking my time for me, I just stopped fighting, stopped hating. Nothing more really matters. I just don't won't more suffering.

 

[sserafim]

Isn't suicide a "sin" because it's self-murder? I'd say that suicide is criminalized in our society as well.

 

[Sleeper System]

I swear you've made a post about killing people before. It was something about understanding people who kill their families and then themselves.


Disagree, I only want to end my own suffering. I'm not suicidal because I think all life is worthless, I just want to be out of my own pain.

I know. It's an ongoing theme because it seems to come with heavily personal opinions. Which is good for discussion. I'm the furthest away from harming others.
I just find the subject interesting when it comes to right and wrong good and evil etc.

And that's along the lines of what im say. You may not openly admit or think that your life is worthless but the simple
fact that you want to take it and end it before its natural expiration serves as proof of how little it means to you.
Regardless if its your life or anothers its really the same thing. We're just attaching emotion to it and creating a difference that isn't really there.

Isn't suicide a "sin" because it's self-murder? I'd say that suicide is criminalized in our society as well.

You would think that but no not really. It's really interesting. If you kill someone else then you're the criminal but if you try to kill yourself then you're actually seen as the victim of yourself. It's crazy. Then they'll spend their time treating you like a wounded bird as opposed to someone who just tried to snuff out life.

There is no way to criminalize suicide because the success of it leaves no one to punish.
Unless they made some rule like in north korea where if you kill yourself then 3 generations of your family follow you to the grave. O_O;;

 

[John-Doe]

Wouldn't that mean you are betraying your own beliefs by allowing them to apply to others but not to yourself?

No, because I don't have a belief that lives should never be ended. Like I said it's situational. If someone breaks in and tries to kill your family, you can defend yourself. If you're bored and decide to shoot your mailman for no reason, that would be wrong. There's no hypocrisy there just because ending a life is okay in one situation and wrong in another.

 

[Guy_Smiley]

Where does it say that you have the right to take your own life? You didn't give it to yourself. You didn't earn it. What right do you have to call it yours? O_O

Where doesn't it say that you have the right to take your own life? Only 20 countries in the world have laws prohibiting suicide, and only a handful of them are democracies. And your argument that a person doesn't have the right to call their own life theirs because they didn't give it to themselves or earn it is absolutely nonsensical. Where does it say that, in order for something to belong to a person, it is necessary that they gave that thing to themselves or earned it?

If you can take something then you can make it yours.

Wrong. If you can take something that belongs to someone else, then you can have it in your possession, but of course that doesn't make it yours.

I also think there are many valid reasons to kill besides just self defense.
I would even say that the one and only condemnable reason to kill is for the purpose of entertainment only.

Fortunately for the reasonable people of the world, the vast majority of the planet's population strongly disagrees with you. Unfortunately, the world does have a lot of sociopaths who do agree with you.

 

[Sleeper System]

No, because I don't have a belief that lives should never be ended. Like I said it's situational. If someone breaks in and tries to kill your family, you can defend yourself. If you're bored and decide to shoot your mailman for no reason, that would be wrong. There's no hypocrisy there just because ending a life is okay in one situation and wrong in another.

The right to decide is kind of where the hypocracy lives. You either value life or you don't. In those extreme situations we can't see it as black and white so it makes it impossible to have a firm stand when you speak from the grey area. In some cases its wrong. In some its right. What if it wasn't for no reason and the reason can't be articulated? What if he's condemned to be wrong by all accounts but really he suffered a mental break and the person he shot was harrassing him. What if there is no evidence that there was a reason other than what the person themselves tried to articulate? So him having a legit reason looks like he just decided to do it for no reason and we judge based on lack of evidence as opposed to a direct confirmation? He would go free.

 

[sserafim]

I know. It's an ongoing theme because it seems to come with heavily personal opinions. Which is good for discussion. I'm the furthest away from harming others.
I just find the subject interesting when it comes to right and wrong good and evil etc.

And that's along the lines of what im say. You may not openly admit or think that your life is worthless but the simple
fact that you want to take it and end it before its natural expiration serves as proof of how little it means to you.
Regardless if its your life or anothers its really the same thing. We're just attaching emotion to it and creating a difference that isn't really there.

You would think that but no not really. It's really interesting. If you kill someone else then you're the criminal but if you try to kill yourself then you're actually seen as the victim of yourself. It's crazy. Then they'll spend their time treating you like a wounded bird as opposed to someone who just tried to snuff out life.

There is no way to criminalize suicide because the success of it leaves no one to punish.
Unless they made some rule like in north korea where if you kill yourself then 3 generations of your family follow you to the grave. O_O;;

Aren't completed suicides treated like crimes though? I heard that the cops investigate and a lot of people don't want to be traced back to this forum. Personally, I don't care enough about other people to kill them. I just see no reason to.

 

[Sleeper System]

Where doesn't it say that you have the right to take your own life? Only 20 countries in the world have laws prohibiting suicide, and only a handful of them are democracies. And your argument that a person doesn't have the right to call their own life theirs because they didn't give it to themselves or earn it is absolutely nonsensical. Where does it say that, in order for something to belong to a person, it is necessary that they gave that thing to themselves or earned it?



Wrong. If you can take something that belongs to someone else, then you can have it in your possession, but of course that doesn't make it yours.



Fortunately for the reasonable people of the world, the vast majority of the planet's population strongly disagrees with you. Unfortunately, the world does have a lot of sociopaths who do agree with you.

I think you lost the arguement the moment you decided to make a personal attack. I am not a sociopath nor do you have to be one to find logic or truth in what i'm saying.
Thanks for your particaption.

Aren't completed suicides treated like crimes though? I heard that the cops investigate and a lot of people don't want to be traced back to this forum. Personally, I don't care enough about other people to kill them. I just see no reason to.

They're treated like crimes because until they can confirm that it actually was suicide then they can't rule out homicide or another cause.
Once they do confirm someone killed themselves there is nothing they can do to the dead person.
If they were coerced or manipulated into suicide by another person and that can be proven then it's a different story and THAT person will be charged with
some type of murder or manslaughter.

 

[onbekend]

I would never kill someone else. The only person I would kill is a clone of myself.

 

[Guy_Smiley]

Isn't suicide a "sin" because it's self-murder? I'd say that suicide is criminalized in our society as well.

"Sins" only exist in various religions. Religions are just beliefs/faiths. So, for atheists and agnostics, there's really no such thing as sin. And although suicide is definitely stigmatized in societies, it's actually only criminalized in 20 countries, and for the most part they are very small countries that are not democracies.

 

[Sleeper System]

I would never kill someone else. The only person I would kill is a clone of myself.

Same. Even if it were a clone of myself I would probably not kill them either. I may need one of their lungs or something. XD
Murder, NO! Organ Harvest, Si!!!

 

[Pluto]

Because this website has become so mainstream and pro-life, I had to make my own site for uncensored discussion of this topic.

 

[EyesOfNight]

Honestly a fascinating question. In both scenarios you terminate a life for a reason. I personally have thought of killing my abuser in their sleep because (judging by what they have done to me) they are a terrible person and shouldn't be allowed to roam the earth freely. Never did it in the end.

Another perspective I want to bring in is humans slaughtering other animals for their own satisfaction, either for the meat or as a sport. Most never question this type of murder and most of those that do questions it simply accept it.

Murder is actually very allowed all that truly matters is the justification for it.

 

[Sleeper System]

Because this website has become so mainstream and pro-life, I had to make my own site for uncensored discussion of this topic.

I see other people claiming it's gone mainstream and pro-life but I don't see it and i'm super active on here.
Maybe they mean that more people means mods have to crack down on the wild talks ppl use to have on here but that's expected.
I tell you what though. The moment I see an AD on here im out the door. XD
This site is completely running off someone elses shoulders and donations and I think that speaks in its favor.
We should appreicate more what the mods and admins are doing.
The moment it becomes about a dollar then that is your Q to jump ship imo.

 

[Guy_Smiley]

I think you lost the arguement the moment you decided to make a personal attack. I am not a sociopath nor do you have to be one to find logic or truth in what i'm saying.
Thanks for your particaption.

Well, you can think whatever you want dude. It's your head, so you can fill it with whatever thoughts you choose. FWIW, I didn't personally attack you. I didn't call you a sociopath. I said there are lots of sociopaths who agree with what you said. And yes, one does very much actually have to be a sociopath to truly believe that, as you stated, "the one and only condemnable reason to kill is for the purpose of entertainment only". I sincerely hope that you don't truly actually believe that and you're just saying it for some odd reason or another. I'll just leave it at that. Goodbye.

 

[Sleeper System]

Honestly a fascinating question. In both scenarios you terminate a life for a reason. I personally have thought of killing my abuser in their sleep because (judging by what they have done to me) they are a terrible person and shouldn't be allowed to roam the earth freely. Never did it in the end.

Another perspective I want to bring in is humans slaughtering other animals for their own satisfaction, either for the meat or as a sport. Most never question this type of murder and most of those that do questions it simply accept it.

Murder is actually very allowed all that truly matters is the justification for it.

Exactly. I have no problem with murder. I also judge it harshly. But I also think I don't have the right to and doing so makes me a hypocrite. xD
All murderers should be murdered is murder.

Well, you can think whatever you want dude. It's your head, so you can fill it with whatever thoughts you choose. FWIW, I didn't personally attack you. I didn't call you a sociopath. I said there are lots of sociopaths who agree with what you said. And yes, one does very much actually have to be a sociopath to truly believe that, as you stated, "the one and only condemnable reason to kill is for the purpose of entertainment only". I sincerely hope that you don't truly actually believe that and you're just saying it for some odd reason. Goodbye.

Hit the road, jack. And dont you come back no mo no mo no mo no mo. Jk.