Method Blackout w/ Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas): Inert Gas Method Variation

[anonymousanguish]

I want to use the inert gas method, but acquiring and storing the necessary materials is tricky for me. I've thought of a potential alternative that I wanted to get people's input on, so lmk what you think.

1) Get a nitrous oxide canister. Not the 8g single use ones, but the larger, whipped cream charger ones that are like 640g.

2) Attach the canister to a non rebreather mask and fill the mask's reservoir with nitrous.

3) Make sure the mask creates as close to an airtight seal as possible around your mouth and nose (this will prob require using tape, putty or something else to ensure no outside air can get in).

4) Hyperventilate before putting the mask on to expel as much oxygen as possible and then hold your breath

5) Put the mask on and take a giant breath to inhale the nitrous from the reservoir.

The idea is that hyperventilation mixed with the big breath of nitrous should make you pass out from oxygen deprivation. Once you've passed out you won't be able to breath in anymore oxygen because of the mask's airtight seal around your mouth and nose. After a few minutes you will die from the lack of oxygen. The idea is that this would work in a similar way that passing out and then drowning in water works. You're already unconscious so you won't feel any urge to breath or any pain from asphyxiating.

Obviously, more common gases like nitrogen, helium or argon could be used, but the nitrous canisters are so much smaller than the other gas cylinders. They can be stored/hidden so much easier, and they can be ordered online so there's no need to go to a welding supply store or anything. You also wouldn't need a regulator to control airflow, just a way to connect the canister to the mask in order to fill it up one time.

You could possibly even do this without a non rebreather mask by taping a plastic bag around your mouth and nose instead of a mask. Connect the canister to the bag (directly or maybe with some sort of tubing) and fill it up with nitrous. Inhale the nitrous to pass out. If you seal the bag around your face well enough you wouldn't be able to inhale any oxygen just like with an actual mask and you should die from oxygen deprivation the same way.

My understanding is that you'd only need a little bit of nitrous, as opposed to a 40L nitrogen cylinder, because you wouldn't be breathing in a constant stream of it like with the normal inert gas method. You'd just be using it to pass out initially, which shouldn't require that much nitrous even without hyperventilating beforehand. For example, people can pass out after just a couple breaths from balloons.

That's basically it. There are certainly some details that have to be worked out, but I wanted this idea to be critiqued before fully fleshing it out.

TLDR: pass out by inhaling a big breath or two of nitrous, but with a mask or bag creating an airtight seal around your mouth and nose so that no oxygen can get in. Die in a few minutes from oxygen deprivation similar to passing out while in water and drowning.

 

[GasMonkey]

Unreliable setup, untested, insufficient gas volume and no mechanism to precisely control flow rate (which is absolutely critical for CO₂ purging).​

they can be ordered online so there's no need to go to a welding supply store or anything

You can order inert gas cylinders online too, that's what I and many others did.

If you are worried about size you can get a 2L 200bar Nitrogen cylinder on 4m4z0n which is just 43cm tall, directly shipped to your house with zero questions asked.

The cheapest reliable implementation is the ExitBag, the better but more expensive ones are SCBA, EEBD and SCUBA.

Read the inert gas chapter on the PPeH & PPH Essentials.

 

[anonymousanguish]

Unreliable setup, untested

Obviously, but every popular method was unreliable and untested until people tested them and figured out how to make them better. Easier and more reliable methods don't get developed unless people think of and experiment with new ideas. Hence the reason I posted my idea for critiquing.

insufficient gas volume and no mechanism to precisely control flow rate (which is absolutely critical for CO₂ purging)

As I explained, part of the appeal is that you don't need a lot of gas volume or anything to control flow rate. There wouldn't be a continuous flow of anything. You'd fill up the reservoir one time and stop the flow once it's full (typically ~1 liter for non rebreather masks). One really deep inhale combined with hyperventilating beforehand should make you pass out (please lmk if that's not accurate though). No need for CO2 purging. You will have already passed out, so the build up of CO2 shouldn't be an issue (the same way it isn't an issue when drowning after blacking out). As long as the seal around your mouth and nose are good there shouldn't be any oxygen leaking in either. While passed out, I suppose you'd just be inhaling and exhaling the co2 over and over, but I don't think it'd be a problem if you aren't conscious (again, lmk if that's not true).

If you are worried about size you can get a 2L 200bar Nitrogen cylinder on 4m4z0n which is just 43cm tall

I'm not sure when/where you saw that, but I can't find anything like that for sale on that site or anywhere else online (pls DM me if you have a source). Getting a larger cylinder shipped isn't viable for me, and I imagine many others, bc I live with family. To use a normal cylinder I'd have to go to a welding supply store the day I'm planning to ctb and buy it then bc I can't bring it home without people noticing. Personally, I'd prefer to not have to buy and assemble everything at the last moment. I would like to have everything ready to go beforehand so that I'm prepared. No need to worry about store hrs, figuring out how to assemble things on the spot or even just having the motivation to go through all that trouble in the moment.

 

[Das Nichts]

CO2 buildup will cause the famous death struggle so it totally depends on effective your blackout is.

Beer brewing nitrogen comes in 2 liter bottles which are easily hidden away.

 

[anonymousanguish]

CO2 buildup will cause the famous death struggle so it totally depends on effective your blackout is.

Beer brewing nitrogen comes in 2 liter bottles which are easily hidden away.

Unfortunately, those 2 liter cylinders don't seem to be available in the US. I didn't dig through every page of Google, but nothing obvious pops up. Plenty of stuff for Europe and Australia but not the US.

 

[Das Nichts]

Unfortunately, those 2 liter cylinders don't seem to be available in the US. I didn't dig through every page of Google, but nothing obvious pops up. Plenty of stuff for Europe and Australia but not the US.

A google search with said search terms yields a 20CF nitrogen tank for 129 $ and it's literally the first search result.

 

[anonymousanguish]

A google search with said search terms yields a 20CF nitrogen tank for 129 $ and it's literally the first search result.

Yes, I know that, but 20CF is ~566 liters of nitrogen gas. The tank itself is about 11.8 liters of water volume. You and @GasMonkey reference a 2 liter nitrogen gas tank. Now, as I said already, I was only able to find 2 liter nitrogen cylinders sold on European and Australian websites.

The 640g nitrous oxide cylinders that I reference in my proposed method are about the size of a 2 liter plastic soda bottle and can be bought from Walmart or Amazon. The 20 cu ft nitrogen cylinders are only sold by independent companies, and I would likely need to sign for those deliveries making it less inconspicuous.

Edit: An added benefit of nitrous is that if I did get caught with it, it'd be a lot easier to explain it as me just trying to get high since ppl do use it for that. I'd have absolutely no reason for having a cylinder of any other gas.

 

[Das Nichts]

Yes, I know that, but 20CF is ~566 liters of nitrogen gas. The tank itself is about 11.8 liters of water volume. You and @GasMonkey reference a 2 liter nitrogen gas tank. Now, as I said already, I was only able to find 2 liter nitrogen cylinders sold on European and Australian websites.

2 liters is the smallest size available in Europe, 20cf in the us. From the measurements I didn't look like that's immensely larger.

The 640g nitrous oxide cylinders that I reference in my proposed method are about the size of a 2 liter plastic soda bottle and can be bought from Walmart or Amazon. The 20 cu ft nitrogen cylinders are only sold by independent companies, and I would likely need to sign for those deliveries making it less inconspicuous.

I get your point. Can't comment on your no method so I'll see myself out.

Good luck in your undertaking!

 

[GasMonkey]

Indeed the full 2L 200bar cylinders are sold in EU, don't expect to see US gas cylinders in "Liters" lol.

In the US you can buy 20ft³ cylinders in 4m4z0n (directly shipped to your house with zero questions asked) an fill them locally. In the US normally small full Nitrogen cylinders are no longer sold because there were too many people ordering them to CTB, the same thing that happened with click-style Nitrogen regulators that nowadays are only sold to medical professionals or brew masters because they are too easy to use for CTBing.

Full 20ft³ Argon cylinders can be bought from the US supplier recommended in the PPeH, but Argon is not as good as Nitrogen.​

I can't bring it home without people noticing

You can, a 20ft³ cylinder is only 14.76" tall, the entire setup would fit in a backpack. You can also order it to your house coz is small and will come concealed inside a box (and light due to being empty). Crushed_Innocence carried her entire setup with a 40ft³ cylinder to an hotel inside a suitcase.​

20CF is ~566 liters of nitrogen gas. The tank itself is about 11.8 liters of water volume.

Nah, the tank would be much bigger and heavier if it had 11.8 L water volume. A 20 ft³ cylinder has 2.8 Liters water volume (if compressed at 200 bar) or 3.7 Liters (if compressed at 150 bar).

No need for CO2 purging

CO₂ purging is absolutely fundamental for a reliable CTB due to the Hypercapnic Alarm Response.

Once you've passed out you won't be able to breath in anymore oxygen because of the mask's airtight seal around your mouth and nose.

Choking yourself is the worst thing you can do.

The method of blacking out inside a bag with a bit of N₂O has been documented a couple of times in medical reports but it's not tested enough to be deemed reliable.

Meanwhile the inert gas method has been used for decades by probably hundreds of thousands of people (or even more) and I haven't seen a single medical report of somebody surviving (barring out the ones who were rescued by another person fast obviously). In the reports doctors themselves say that the survival cases of proper inert gas setups are inexistent, nobody survives.​

 

[anonymousanguish]

Nah, the tank would be much bigger and heavier if it had 11.8 L water volume

My bad. I think I used the wrong term then for describing what I meant. By "water volume" I was describing the actual space the cylinder takes up based on its outside dimensions that were listed. I didn't mean the amount of water that would fit in the empty tank.

CO₂ purging is absolutely fundamental for a reliable CTB due to the Hypercapnic Alarm Response.

I'm very much aware of the hypercapnic alarm response (although I didn't know it's exact name), but as I've been trying to explain I don't think it would matter if you aren't conscious. You wouldn't feel an urge to breath due to co2 build up bc you would have already passed out.

The shallow water blackout (swb) method incorporates the same idea. SWB isn't as popular on this site, but those that do talk about it report it being very peaceful. They hyperventilate and then hold their breath under water to pass out. Once unconscious the water continues to suffocate them until death from oxygen deprivation. In my proposed method, instead of water, the mask would suffocate you after blacking out. My understanding is that the nitrous would just make it easier for you to pass out so that you wouldn't have to hold your breath for so long after hyperventilating like with SWB.

Idk, maybe I'm being too picky or maybe I'm just lazy (I definitely am), but a big motivating factor for me coming up with this idea was that I wouldn't need to go anywhere to buy anything even if it's just for filling up a cylinder that I ordered online. The necessary supplies just seem more readily available. To me it also seems simpler to set up. I believe all I'd need is the nitrous, a non rebreather mask and silly putty (to seal the mask). No need to control airflow or worry about connecting everything properly.

It's also significantly cheaper:
-615g nitrous tank ($40)
-6 pack ($180)
-5 pack non rebreather masks ($16)
-silly putty ($10)

The more I think about this and research the materials the more confident I become that it'll work. Does it have a track record like exit bag or scba mask with nitrogen gas? No, obviously not, but to me it seems reasonable, it's cheaper and more discrete. I think I might order the materials and just start testing things out. I'll provide updates if I actually do follow through.

I'm still open to criticism and/or advice if anyone has anything else to say at any point. I honestly do appreciate the feedback. I feel this has really helped me think things through more thoroughly.

 

[wanderingbeam]

not sure about this method as i don't think a single breath of nitrous could leave you unconscious. i've passed out from recreational nitrous use before, but it takes several balloons worth of gas for that to happen. i'm curious though so do share your findings if you end up experimenting with it

 

[anonymousanguish]

not sure about this method as i don't think a single breath of nitrous could leave you unconscious. i've passed out from recreational nitrous use before, but it takes several balloons worth of gas for that to happen. i'm curious though so do share your findings if you end up experimenting with it

Update:

I ordered a 615g nitrous tank, disposable non-rebreather masks and silly putty.

It doesn't look like you actually need the putty because the cheap masks I bought actually seal really well on their own when the strap is pulled tight enough. I can't breath in at all when the mask is secured and I use my finger to cover the tube that lets air in. Keep in mind that the quality of the seal will likely depend on a person's facial structure and the specific mask they receive.

With regards to the inert gas method in general, people talk a lot about scuba masks or exit bags, but it seems these non-rebreather masks would work perfectly fine. Maybe just use duct tape to really secure it during the actual attempt to ensure it doesn't come off after passing out.

I haven't really tested anything else, but I did discover that they do make regulators for these 615g nitrous tanks. They aren't too expensive ($80), so people could use nitrous in the same way that the traditional inert gas method is done. 615g nitrous cylinder in theory contains ~279 L of gas at 65 fahrenheit. Using a flow rate of 6 L/min, this sized cylinder should have plenty of gas to successfully ctb with nitrous. To be safe, they do sell 1100g and even 2000g nitrous cylinders.

I think using non-rebreather masks, disposable nitrous cylinders and a regulator would still be cheaper than using nitrogen, which would make it a more viable option for some people. I would need to double check all the prices to be certain, but I don't feel like doing that. I think this stuff is also just more readily available (at least in the US).

I will provide further updates if/when I continue testing.

———————————————
I would just like to note that while I do believe in the right to die, I think suicide is something that in general should only be done after a lot of introspection, contemplation and seeking help from others. I feel conflicted posting info that could potentially make it easier for people to kill themselves who haven't completely thought it through. At the same time, I'm obviously not the arbiter of moral truth and maybe for some people committing suicide is the right thing to do regardless of how they reached that conclusion.

Not that it really matters, but I would appreciate if anyone reading the info I post uses it in a manner that they genuinely believe to be responsible and beneficial and, certainly, never to harm others. Thank you.

 

[GasMonkey]

615g nitrous cylinder in theory contains ~279 L of gas

Something looks wrong in that numbers, that's a huge volume of gas for such a small cylinder, what pressure value have you assumed to do that math? I'm looking at 615gr tanks on Amazon and it says that they have 0.95 L total volume.
​

With regards to the inert gas method in general, people talk a lot about scuba masks or exit bags, but it seems these non-rebreather masks would work perfectly fine.

NRB masks, even tho they are plausible to CTB and likely to work, are not explicitly designed to protect you from the external air and can originate issues with the mask's fit/placement in the face, which can cause air to leak into the mask, like it happened to one of the subjects in the Dignitas study.​

Maybe just use duct tape to really secure it during the actual attempt to ensure it doesn't come off after passing out.

It could be a way to improve a NRB setup, not the best implementation obviously.

Using a flow rate of 6 L/min

Too low, the standard flow rate used in NRB masks (in actual real medical usage) is the same as the ExitBag: 15 LPM. That was the flow rate used in the Dignitas study.

 

[anonymousanguish]

Something looks wrong in that numbers, that's a huge volume of gas for such a small cylinder, what pressure value have you assumed to do that math? I'm looking at 615gr tanks on Amazon and it says that they have 0.95 L total volume.

Ya, that's what I first thought as well, but I believe the .95 L refers to the internal water volume of the cylinder (the cylinder itself is about the size of a 1 L water bottle). I calculated the volume using the mass (615g) and the density of nitrous at 32F and 1 atm (1.9774 kg/m3), and then adjusted it for 65F and 1 atm using this calculator. I used this site as my primary reference, but there are plenty of other sources that have the density and molecular mass info. If my reasoning isn't mistaken, then this would mean the 615g of gas in the cylinder would expand to 279 L if it was all released into the air.

I was really perplexed by this as well. I was calculating stuff in all kinds of ways and looking to find an explicit answer online to verify the calculation, but i don't think it's that unreasonable of an estimate anymore. For one, I found this chemist's molecular gastronomy blog talking about the small 8g chargers saying, "A single N2O charger contains 8 g of gas corresponding to 0.1818 moles or a volume of 4.1 L at 25 °C and 1 atm pressure"(Khymos). That would equate to 315 L for 615g.

Also, thinking about a reusable gas tank, a 20 cu ft argon tank has an internal volume of only 3.6 L, but the 20 cu ft capacity is about 566 L. I don't think it's too unreasonable that .95 L nitrous tank would expand to 279 L when released.

There's also this calculator as a tool for making all sorts of conversions.

NRB masks, even tho they are plausible to CTB and likely to work, are not explicitly designed to protect you from the external air

I understand the concern, but the one I got seemed to seal really well around my face at least. It terms of accessibility, they're also just really cheap. An exit bag would be cheap also, but I'd prefer to not have to put a bag over my head. I'd like to have unobstructed vision in my final moments if possible.

Too low, the standard flow rate used in NRB masks (in actual real medical usage) is the same as the ExitBag: 15 LPM

For this, I just based 6 LPM off what the avg respiration rate of a person is. After checking what you said, I realize now that 15 LPM is standard for nrb masks.

 

[ditsyking]

Does anyone know about long term damages using nitrous oxide if survived?

 

[Das Nichts]

Does anyone know about long term damages using nitrous oxide if survived?

This is uncharted territory so I would advise against it unless you are willing to do the research yourself.

 

[GasMonkey]

I forgot about this thread.

I calculated the volume using the mass (615g) and the density of nitrous at 32F and 1 atm (1.9774 kg/m3), and then adjusted it for 65F and 1 atm

You just have to multiply the water volume with the pressure to get the approximate total uncompressed volume, we do it all the time in the forum for inert gas cylinders.

I don't think it's too unreasonable that .95 L nitrous tank would expand to 279 L when released.

That impossible, it would have to be compressed at 293,68 bar.

 

[anonymousanguish]

I forgot about this thread.


You just have to multiply the water volume with the pressure to get the approximate total uncompressed volume, we do it all the time in the forum for inert gas cylinders.


That impossible, it would have to be compressed at 293,68 bar.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not in a very good mood, so I'm sorry if I'm misreading your messages. However, I'm pretty tired of you just laughing off what I say. I mean seriously, a laughing-crying emoji!?

I listed all the research I did and calculations I made. You're free to click on the links and go through everything yourself. Afterwards, if you'd like to explain why my calculations are wrong then feel free to do so. Don't just say you calculate it a different way and therefore my way is wrong (I could just say the same thing). I don't think the reasoning behind my calculation method is flawed, but you're welcome to explain why it is.

Also, why is 293 bar so unreasonable that you call it impossible and put that emoji? Reusable argon tanks can be pressurized to that level and even much higher. Yes, the disposable nitrous tanks probably aren't the same quality, so it is reasonable to question it. However, again, based on my calculation method I don't understand why my expanded volume estimate is so wrong.

The nitrous tank I have says its pressure tested to 165 bar. I don't know what the actual service pressure inside the tank is. The argon tank I linked earlier has a service pressure that's about 66% of the test pressure. Based on that, the service pressure inside my tank is about 109 bar. Using your method for calculating expanded gas volume would result in the 615g nitrous tank having about 102L of nitrous when released. This is significantly less than the 279L that I calculated, but using a 2000g nitrous tank would still get you 22 minutes at 15 LPM which is plenty. Keep in mind, that having a constant stream of gas isn't even what I intend to do with my proposed method. I was simply pointing out that nitrous is a viable, and potentially more accessible, option for the traditional inert gas method.

You seem to talk as if you're an expert on this stuff. Your username is "GasMonkey" for Christ's sake! So I feel like you should be more thoughtful in your responses. I'm not claiming to have figured everything out or that my idea is fool proof and should be the go to method for everyone. I'm simply exploring something that I don't see being talked about. It is also something that is more accessible and appealing to me personally. I'm open to criticism, and this forum has certainly helped me think things through and figure some stuff out. However, if you're going to criticize, don't do it in a rude way. It doesn't help anyone (except maybe your own ego). Instead of just brushing things off as "impossible", please try and explain why you think it's impossible because right now I'm not seeing why my calculations and reasoning surrounding the method are so impossible. There is certainly stuff to be questioned. Afterall, why do our different methods for calculating expanded gas result in such different numbers? But I urge you to question things in a more productive way.

Again, sorry if I've been misreading what you've been saying. Maybe I'm just being too defensive, but I feel my reasoning has been solid. Is this a surefire method? Of course not, but no method is.

 

[GasMonkey]

I'm not an expert in N₂O, I have only studied extensively inert gases.

I just realized that all this time you were talking about LIQUID N₂O, not compressed gas N₂O.

N₂O is stored as liquid at ambient temperature, now it makes sense how that small cylinders can store so much gas volumes (which are impossible as compressed gas) due to the huge expansion ratio from liquid to gas. A small 2kg (3.3L) canister has a whopping 1018L gas volume (1:308 expansion ratio).

N₂O has a molar mass of 44,013 g/mol so you could probably use a CO₂ flow meter to measure the flow rate since CO₂ has basically an identical molar mass (44,01 g/mol).​

 

[Alos]

A google search with said search terms yields a 20CF nitrogen tank for 129 $ and it's literally the first search result.

Try your local propane and gas store. I use to work for one and they have everything. Whether they will sell you it or not have a good excuse. One time someone got gas by saying they wanted better sound quality.... They didn't.

 

[Obliviate]

This is interesting. Let me know how it goes. Keep us updated on any of your research!

 

[Das Nichts]

Looks like there has been some research on your method:

rebreather.

I just ordered the new rebreather. no order confirmation from the initial site and you have to use a separate site for shipping info. nothing from there either. cost me about $300+ being in the U.S. I emailed the shipping site immediately after asking for information. after reading the other...

sanctioned-suicide.net