4_science

4_science

Student
Apr 12, 2024
101
There are two types of people here.One who push those to ctb and one that chooses to ctb since all the doors of opportunities for peace and prosperity are locked.Some ctb for peace,some for revenge,some for relief.For example,when I ctb it's because of my narcissistic birth giver(male) not because I was depressed.
If you suffer because of negative experiences with another person to a point you think about ctb because of it, that is trauma resulting in Ptsd in my books. Suffering = illness. I haven´t met a lot of people affected by Ptsd who celebrate or enjoy it.
 
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achb

achb

I am Clive
Oct 23, 2023
133
I think it's entirely possible to ctb while not being mentally ill. And I also think it definitely happens.

However, I don't think that just because you look good, appear happy, and seem to have a bright future ahead, that random people on the internet should decide you weren't mentally ill. I think that's a horrible assumption to make. So many people struggle with mental health inwardly but not outwardly.

But I do think for many people, it feels like a rational decision. Maybe the future just doesn't seem worth living.
I agree with you that people who are disabled or can't handle their own struggles should be euthanized, especially if they can not contribute to the economy. Hitler did it even to babies younger than 3 years old who showed bad signs.
Sorry, to clarify, you're not saying you think disabled people in general should be euthanized, right? Just the ones who want to die?
 
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karmaisabitch

karmaisabitch

Mage
Mar 25, 2024
570
Sadly a lot of people can't wrap their head around the fact that not all suicidal people are mentally ill. This is why suicide is considered a tabu and just plain wrong. Everyone believes you should never have the right to kill yourself because you are not mentally stable and can't and shouldn't decide for yourself. That you can and should be treated out of your suicidality. It's just so sad.
It's very sad! They want us to be slave to society but when the government decide there is so many people on earth let's throw corona virus so we can reduce the number, it's fine as long as you died by someone else hands!
I agree that I think in many of cases MH isn't the cause of suicidal ideation. That said if you have sucidal ideation you probably have MH health problems, but it isn't the cause.

What I mean by that is if someone has a terrible life with illnesses that cripple them and leave them in pain - CBT would be a logical option and not one made by MH problems. But the fact you are living with illnesses with crippling pain is likely going to addiotnally to given MH problems.

So essentially a life situation which is enough to make someone suicidal is also likely to impact them mentally.

I would be able to relate to this, I have mood swings and probably some form of mild/moderate depression which would indicate MH problems but they certainly haven't caused me to be sucidal. It's my life situation. It's why I'm not interested in meds etc becuase they don't resolve the actual issue at hand.
Exactly well said!
I think it's entirely possible to ctb while not being mentally ill. And I also think it definitely happens.

However, I don't think that just because you look good, appear happy, and seem to have a bright future ahead, that random people on the internet should decide you weren't mentally ill. I think that's a horrible assumption to make. So many people struggle with mental health inwardly but not outwardly.

But I do think for many people, it feels like a rational decision. Maybe the future just doesn't seem worth living.

Sorry, to clarify, you're not saying you think disabled people in general should be euthanized, right? Just the ones who want to die?
I agree! We can never know what's their smile hiding! Human being are just a sad reality!
Yes and it's truly insulting yet so absurd when people so insensitively insist otherwise. The problem lies in the dreadful, futile abomination that is existence itself, it's insane when people label it as an illness if one prefers the peace of an eternal, dreamless sleep to suffering so senselessly in this existence that was always undesirable in the first place. I'd always prefer to peacefully die on my own terms than to suffer for decades just to die a slow, painful death tortured by old age. In my case suicide is rational as it's suffering prevention in an existence that can potentially get so torturous way beyond how anyone can even imagine.
Yes I agree! I like to die the way and time I want to not to wait until people changes my diapers and abuse me in nursing home.. the older we get the more we suffer!
 
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Eudaimonic

Eudaimonic

I want to fade away.
Aug 11, 2023
329
This is true. However, mental illness in general does not ipso facto entail constitutive irrationality or invalidate one's wishes to die any more than a diagnosis of a terminal disease or debilitating physical ailment invalidates one's wishes for the same. Psychache occurring as a result of mental illness is not qualitatively different. There is substantial overlap in the activated neural networks for both mental and physical pain. The notion that suicide/SI in the presence of mental illness is irrational is rooted in substance dualism (specifically that mental pain is somehow less tangible than physical pain despite both arising in the mind and therefore more amenable to remediation), and the stigma around mental illness as a whole (specifically that mental illness instills one's wish to die through constitutive irrationality or that the wish to die is invalid because of the purported irrationality).

Relevant paper: https://www.upstate.edu/psych/pdf/szasz/hewitt-mental-illness-excluded.pdf
 
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thealteredmind

thealteredmind

Experienced
Apr 2, 2024
231
I disagree. You are misinterpreting a common debate and draw conclusions that are not accurate.

Never having been to a psychiatrist or diagnosed with any disorder or mental illness doesn´t mean you don´t have one. Many mentally ill people are highly functional till a certain breaking point for instance. I think you might not be aware of the difference between illness and disorder and illness in general. I´ll try to break it down.
There is no absolute consensus on the definitions of health, disease, and illness, even though these concepts are central not only in medicine but also in the health social sciences. It is more of a consensus. In mental healthcare is the classic (medical) approach is like: you can detect it and it is written down in a standardised form. It is illness. More modern approaches in therapy (treating mental illness) you shy away from that. In systemic approach you don´t use the word patent lightly, but rather use client. It is all about labels. Having issues (i.e. listed as disorders) can be subjective and don´t apply to you. Illness in a very simple definition = absence of help or suffering from something. If you label a person a patient from the get go, you might be wrong. Not everybody is truly suffering or sees it that way as being sick. They can be highly functional or see it as perks). In a clinical setting they are always patients and will get a diagnosis. (Justify billing, comparable standards etc. - medical approach)
If you work at an institution or have your own office depending on whether you are team traditional (medical label) or more modern approach, you refer to them as clients instead. If they don´t express suffering to a point it affects health and quality of life defining them as sick (one definition of illness) or if I as your therapist don´t diagree with your view, you are a client. If I think you got problems affecting your life in a negative way or display severe symptoms (clinical depression, panic disorder, ptsd, schizoid disorders for instance).

Whether you are mentally depends on what your perception is, where you are treated and what the person who treats you thinks. Illness in mental health is a consensus and often highly subjctive. We do use labels and need them but the debate patient or not ill or not revolves around stigmatisation and avoiding discrimination.

4th highest cause of death world wide is suicide (mostly associated with depression). There are cases of sudden impulsive behaviour or reaction (affect) as a direct and timely result to a traumatic event or catastrophe or when facing unexpected timely passing of a themselves or a loved one. You probable are very disordered (pun intended) or have been in the past if that is your reaction imo. Other than that it is always mental disorders or illness. If the actions you take revolve around killing yourself or other severe forms, you are not sane anymore by any standard.

Looking into medical statistics in the US doesn´t tell you anything since access to healthcare. Hence why no diagnosis or connection to it since social healthcare is not a right granted in the land of the free and home of the brave (and utterly troubled if you can´t afford treatment.

Prolonged grief disorder is included in the ICD 11 (European framework or medical diagnosis) btw.

Feeling not fit in society that does imply suffering and does have an affect on quality of life (=illness or disorder) because society says so in a framework. Depression caused by falling through the cracks or not having a system beneficial to its citizens is still depression caused by external factors that impact internal such as your health.
basically this.
there are abnormal cases of very happy people that want to kill themselves for a greater cause, but they are an exception.

maybe there's a stigma with mental illness and people have a problem with that. It's hard to accept for some.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
3,299
Treating suicide as something that only mentally ill people end up doing is wrong on many levels. There many people out there who decide they want to ctb for many reasons, from homelessness, to doing so in protest, to doing so for philosophical reasons, and more. Not everyone who wants to ctb is mentally ill and treating suidicality as something that only mentally ill people go through just leans into the same type of rhetoric used to keep right to die out of people's reach. Not everyone who considers suicide is mentally ill and even if they are they deserve the right to die a peaceful death if they choose to.
 
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4_science

4_science

Student
Apr 12, 2024
101
Treating suicide as something that only mentally ill people end up doing is wrong on many levels. There many people out there who decide they want to ctb for many reasons, from homelessness, to doing so in protest, to doing so for philosophical reasons, and more. Not everyone who wants to ctb is mentally ill and treating suidicality as something that only mentally ill people go through just leans into the same type of rhetoric used to keep right to die out of people's reach. Not everyone who considers suicide is mentally ill and even if they are they deserve the right to die a peaceful death if they choose to.
Like I said, the term ill (suffering, diminished quality of life) doesn´t apply to everyone and is controversial. Just another label you can identify with or not or it is assigned to you. You could argue old age is an illness. Society is controlling people. Those who don´t fit the norm are pushed to the margin.

I think society should stop blaming people and create conditions for every person to lead their desired and self-determined life in the first place. People should not become ill or suffer in any way shape or form because of a broken system.

Second, it should be nobody´s business who kills themself and why or why not.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
3,299
Like I said, the term ill (suffering, diminished quality of life) doesn´t apply to everyone and is controversial. Just another label you can identify with or not or it is assigned to you. You could argue old age is an illness. Society is controlling people. Those who don´t fit the norm are pushed to the margin.

I think society should stop blaming people and create conditions for every person to lead their desired and self-determined life in the first place. People should not become ill or suffer in any way shape or form because of a broken system.

Second, it should be nobody´s business who kills themself and why or why not.
I 100% agree with you. The term "ill" is basically just an excuse used in order to push others away and invalidate them and their points. We already see a lot of cases with this in regards to queer people, but this extends to a lot of different groups, especially marginalized groups. It's always either that others are ill or they are lazy and uncivilized. Very few people are able to uphold the imagine of fitting into societal norms (I'm of the belief that most people don't fit into them are only able to create the illusion of being able to) and most of us are forced into being sidelined and ostracized.

While I do believe that work does need to be done in order to make sure that those who plan on ctbing are actually completely sure that this is what they want, I do believe that we all deserve the right to peaceful and accessible suicide options. If people truly hate the fact that others are committing suicide then they should be working towards improving our world rather than feeding into and advocating the flawed system in place that is harming others. But then again, why do that when you can just label all suicidal people as mentally ill and then copy and paste some random hotline number and tell them to "seek therapy"?
 
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KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

想死不能 - 想活不能
Nov 23, 2020
1,692
The issue I have with suicidality automatically being construed to be a consequence of mental illness is that this argument always tends to assume the suicidal person is behaving irrationally and not in their right mind. Many people conflate mental suffering with being an unreliable narrator and incapable of making sensible decisions for whatever reason, as if everyone who is suicidal is in some pseudo-psychotic state of delusion with 0 lucidity or insight into reality.

Indeed, many types of psychotherapies like CBT are rooted in the foundation that mental pain stems from having incorrect and overly negative thoughts, and that if you tell yourself that your thoughts and feelings are irrational cognitive distortions enough times, you can correct this because it is a conscious decision to do so. I can't even begin to explain what an oversimplification this line of logic is, yet it forms the cornerstone of many "gold standard" mental health treatments since they are offshoots of behavioural psychology.

It is true that there are lots of people out there who decide on suicide impulsively, with an extremely sudden onset and no history of psychiatric conditions. In such cases, maybe you could say someone lacks emotional regulation or long-term decision making skills necessary in order to assess all their options before jumping to the most extreme conclusion. But there's no mental illness you are going to be diagnosed with those traits alone. There's certain criteria that has to be met to receive an on paper psychiatric diagnosis. The same thing happens whenever some violent crime happens, people just throw out the word mental illness meaninglessly and cast the blame on this unspecific concept which in turn leads to more distrust and castigation of your average depressed or bipolar person who is non-violent, but both are going to be thrown under this wide umbrella of being mentally ill- when we can't even define what that even means as a collective.

There is so much we don't understand about the brain and I think it is simply easier to default to a vague, nebulous explanation of all suicidal people being mentally ill than trying to explore the variety of reasons why someone would want to die in the first place. Mental illness is often used as a catchall and unspecific term to encapsulate every type of mental suffering whenever it is convenient. There is a whole lot of fear surrounding the topic and very little understanding.

I think I have strong feelings towards this subject because the entire concept of mental illness has been used to invalidate so much of the pain I've been through. On top of my physical health problems, I have PTSD and autism and have been involved with the mental health system since a very young age. As soon as your problem gets labeled as mental, there is so much judgement and unscientific assumptions that you "choose to be this way" and somehow have control over it. Your credibility goes to the dogs and everyone acts like you know nothing about yourself and your own life.

I have taken so many medications and spent years doing therapy, and when their methods didn't work, they will always claim without fail that it's because you don't want to get better or try hard enough. It took many years for a doctor to tell me that the treatments out there simply weren't adequate for my level of complex PTSD, but then others will continue this nonsense that it's mental, you aren't cooperating when medications don't work, or a therapist makes you feel worse, and even worse, you're hurting people on purpose by not getting better.

Here's the thing, I told myself many times it isn't "rational" for me to have PTSD and the responses my body is having to innocuous stimuli don't make any sense. This did not make one lick of difference for me. I'm still traumatized, I'm still suicidal over it, I still have these responses, because my brain developed around shit that happened decades ago. There's no official treatments for PTSD except psychological/talking therapies and the same SSRIs that get thrown at everything, there is very little science in this field being implemented in practice.

There's complex biochemical responses going on here that guilt tripping and shaming simply do not fix. And yet I have still been treated like an absolute piece of shit who willingly sabotages myself and doesn't want to get better simply for admitting these tactics don't work, they're harming me, and saying honestly I need something different! One time I argued with paramedics and police saying that the healthcare system was not helping me or taking my physical health problems seriously, and that the GP was just invalidating my issues and my PTSD as well. They deadass gave me a blank eyed stare and kept telling me to talk to the GP and that help is out there but I have to "want it or seek it" or something like that.

It simply makes no sense whatsoever to me to keep telling someone who has tried dozens and dozens of different treatment methods that they're just stubborn, not seeing reality, "unwell and troubled" and every other pejorative in the book. Let's face it, no matter how much these campaigns talk about destigmatizing mental illness, the reality is that when a problem is too complicated for modern healthcare to solve they slap you with the label of mental illness/psychological issues and act like it's your fault and you have some kind of divine control over it. The healthcare system at its core stigmatizes mental pain that is long term. I think many suicidal people in the early stages of things could see improvement if others acknowledged their pain rather than treating them like they're irrational and crazy for feeling this way.

There are so many reasons why people choose suicide, it's extremely complicated and can't be reduced to a single factor. When dealing with chronic illness, one of the most invalidating things I have been told over and over again is that it's not having disabling physical conditions that's the problem, it's that I'm depressed over it, and I should just have a more positive mindset, that it's my mindset that is the issue and not the horrible symptoms causing me to feel bad in the first place. If we were all irrational and unable to see reality, I don't think the suicide rate would be so high in patient populations of conditions that don't have a treatment or for those whose chronic pain is unmanaged.

I think people are really ignorant of the consequences of long term health conditions and suffering, as well as how quality of life impacts a person's will to live. It is far easier to call everything messy, complicated, and uncomfortable a mental illness than examine what it means to be mentally well, sane, logical etc in the first place or to develop new treatment options to help suffering people who get thrown these diagnoses.
 
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LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,208
The issue I have with suicidality automatically being construed to be a consequence of mental illness is that this argument always tends to assume the suicidal person is behaving irrationally and not in their right mind. Many people conflate mental suffering with being an unreliable narrator and incapable of making sensible decisions for whatever reason, as if everyone who is suicidal is in some pseudo-psychotic state of delusion with 0 lucidity or insight into reality.

Indeed, many types of psychotherapies like CBT are rooted in the foundation that mental pain stems from having incorrect and overly negative thoughts, and that if you tell yourself that your thoughts and feelings are irrational cognitive distortions enough times, you can correct this because it is a conscious decision to do so. I can't even begin to explain what an oversimplification this line of logic is, yet it forms the cornerstone of many "gold standard" mental health treatments since they are offshoots of behavioural psychology.

It is true that there are lots of people out there who decide on suicide impulsively, with an extremely sudden onset and no history of psychiatric conditions. In such cases, maybe you could say someone lacks emotional regulation or long-term decision making skills necessary in order to assess all their options before jumping to the most extreme conclusion. But there's no mental illness you are going to be diagnosed with those traits alone. There's certain criteria that has to be met to receive an on paper psychiatric diagnosis. The same thing happens whenever some violent crime happens, people just throw out the word mental illness meaninglessly and cast the blame on this unspecific concept which in turn leads to more distrust and castigation of your average depressed or bipolar person who is non-violent, but both are going to be thrown under this wide umbrella of being mentally ill- when we can't even define what that even means as a collective.

There is so much we don't understand about the brain and I think it is simply easier to default to a vague, nebulous explanation of all suicidal people being mentally ill than trying to explore the variety of reasons why someone would want to die in the first place. Mental illness is often used as a catchall and unspecific term to encapsulate every type of mental suffering whenever it is convenient. There is a whole lot of fear surrounding the topic and very little understanding.

I think I have strong feelings towards this subject because the entire concept of mental illness has been used to invalidate so much of the pain I've been through. On top of my physical health problems, I have PTSD and autism and have been involved with the mental health system since a very young age. As soon as your problem gets labeled as mental, there is so much judgement and unscientific assumptions that you "choose to be this way" and somehow have control over it. Your credibility goes to the dogs and everyone acts like you know nothing about yourself and your own life.

I have taken so many medications and spent years doing therapy, and when their methods didn't work, they will always claim without fail that it's because you don't want to get better or try hard enough. It took many years for a doctor to tell me that the treatments out there simply weren't adequate for my level of complex PTSD, but then others will continue this nonsense that it's mental, you aren't cooperating when medications don't work, or a therapist makes you feel worse, and even worse, you're hurting people on purpose by not getting better.

Here's the thing, I told myself many times it isn't "rational" for me to have PTSD and the responses my body is having to innocuous stimuli don't make any sense. This did not make one lick of difference for me. I'm still traumatized, I'm still suicidal over it, I still have these responses, because my brain developed around shit that happened decades ago. There's no official treatments for PTSD except psychological/talking therapies and the same SSRIs that get thrown at everything, there is very little science in this field being implemented in practice.

There's complex biochemical responses going on here that guilt tripping and shaming simply do not fix. And yet I have still been treated like an absolute piece of shit who willingly sabotages myself and doesn't want to get better simply for admitting these tactics don't work, they're harming me, and saying honestly I need something different! One time I argued with paramedics and police saying that the healthcare system was not helping me or taking my physical health problems seriously, and that the GP was just invalidating my issues and my PTSD as well. They deadass gave me a blank eyed stare and kept telling me to talk to the GP and that help is out there but I have to "want it or seek it" or something like that.

It simply makes no sense whatsoever to me to keep telling someone who has tried dozens and dozens of different treatment methods that they're just stubborn, not seeing reality, "unwell and troubled" and every other pejorative in the book. Let's face it, no matter how much these campaigns talk about destigmatizing mental illness, the reality is that when a problem is too complicated for modern healthcare to solve they slap you with the label of mental illness/psychological issues and act like it's your fault and you have some kind of divine control over it. The healthcare system at its core stigmatizes mental pain that is long term. I think many suicidal people in the early stages of things could see improvement if others acknowledged their pain rather than treating them like they're irrational and crazy for feeling this way.

There are so many reasons why people choose suicide, it's extremely complicated and can't be reduced to a single factor. When dealing with chronic illness, one of the most invalidating things I have been told over and over again is that it's not having disabling physical conditions that's the problem, it's that I'm depressed over it, and I should just have a more positive mindset, that it's my mindset that is the issue and not the horrible symptoms causing me to feel bad in the first place. If we were all irrational and unable to see reality, I don't think the suicide rate would be so high in patient populations of conditions that don't have a treatment or for those whose chronic pain is unmanaged.

I think people are really ignorant of the consequences of long term health conditions and suffering, as well as how quality of life impacts a person's will to live. It is far easier to call everything messy, complicated, and uncomfortable a mental illness than examine what it means to be mentally well, sane, logical etc in the first place or to develop new treatment options to help suffering people who get thrown these diagnoses.
There was a famous study that psychologists carried out that conducted psychological autopsies on people who completed suicide and concluded that 90% of the people analyzed had a mental illness at the time of their death. And that statistic wss extrapolated to basically everyone who kills themselves. So even these people who were most invested in the suicide=mental illness narrative still conceded that there was a non-negligible minority (according to them) that was not psychiatrically ill.

The funny thing is that you can't take foe granted by any means that that someone in the minority acted more "rationally" than in the mentally ill majority.
 
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PINKIESISU

PINKIESISU

Member
Apr 21, 2024
52
People tend to think suicide connected with mental illness. That's so untrue! You don't have to be mentally ill to have SI and die by suicide in fact most of the people die by suicide are not mentally ill and never saw a psychiatric. Not every symptom is mental illness according to DSM5. People can attempt to kill themselves or wish to die due to grief a loss, challenge with friends, financial difficulties, not happy in life etc.. ofc other mentally ill can have S ideations and thoughts but never go through with it if that make sense? If you look at the recent suicide history in the US since 2024, none of these people have mental issues in fact they all look beautiful smart have future plans and rich. Sometimes you just feel " not fit" with this society. I know I don't want to continue this life working even tho I'm grieving and if I stop working due to my grief and pain I will be homeless I'm literally one paycheck away from being homeless.
No it doesn't it can mean what it means in my situation you miss your real self and life you still remember it and you hate the situation that you're in
 
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P

Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
11,108
Suicidal ideation (and suicide) is not necessarily a result of mental illness it's a result to life circumstances that r so unbearable that only death is the solution to be relieved from pain and suffering in life.
 
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karmaisabitch

karmaisabitch

Mage
Mar 25, 2024
570
No it doesn't it can mean what it means in my situation you miss your real self and life you still remember it and you hate the situation that you're in
Sounds like me!!
 
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BrainShower

BrainShower

Tiny storm
Nov 7, 2023
251
I didn't take the time to read all the replies, so apologies if im repeating anything.
IMO mental illness is a spectrum, like physical illness.
You don't have a label slapped on you saying "SICK" when you have a cold.
Mental illness should be perceived similarly. You could have mild depression and that doesn't mean it's time for a padded room vacation.
There is a massive range of different mental issues. It's a very complicated subject.
All this to say that it's important to consider many factors when discussing mental health and try not to generalize or stigmatize folks who are suffering. Including ourselves. :)
 
E

Esokabat

Specialist
Apr 22, 2024
390
People tend to think suicide connected with mental illness. That's so untrue! You don't have to be mentally ill to have SI and die by suicide in fact most of the people die by suicide are not mentally ill and never saw a psychiatric. Not every symptom is mental illness according to DSM5. People can attempt to kill themselves or wish to die due to grief a loss, challenge with friends, financial difficulties, not happy in life etc.. ofc other mentally ill can have S ideations and thoughts but never go through with it if that make sense? If you look at the recent suicide history in the US since 2024, none of these people have mental issues in fact they all look beautiful smart have future plans and rich. Sometimes you just feel " not fit" with this society. I know I don't want to continue this life working even tho I'm grieving and if I stop working due to my grief and pain I will be homeless I'm literally one paycheck away from being homeless.
It annoys the heck out of me that people use the abbreviation "SI" to two completely different words meaning almost the opposite concepts. Would you mind looking up the official site meaning of "SI" in the abbreviation section? Or are we just supposed to guess the meaning each time?
 

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