Discussion Atheist, Agnostic, Religious, or Spiritual? Cast your vote ⬇

[callme]

Now, what's the diff between spirituality and religion?

Many japanese believe in Shinto spirits and Japan is either 65% Shinto or only 3% Shinto, because it's a spiritual practice and spiritual practise is not religion. Of course, since many Shintos are also somehow Buddhists, so it's also a religion, Japan is officially 66% Buddhist and 65% Shinto, for a total of 131% of religious population out of 100% possible.

Is belief in spirits not the same as belief in gods? Is the only difference a lack of necessary violence in favor of spirituality?

don't really think it's mentioned too much. if you google a concrete statement biblically on the act of suicide you won't find one, people just try to infer that a decent

Yes, along with homosexuality. Four such quotes in all of the Bible, but a lot of talk, mainly because of the historically bad trearment. If there is a statement on suicide as a sin, it's scattered somewhere in one of the many not talked about verses.

People have generally moved on from the bible

No, they frequently say, "Have you read the Bible" in an argument.

The only unforgivable sin in Christianity is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"

So all the others laid out in the Ten Commandments are forgivable sins? Aren't they unforgivable, because god "commands" people not to do them? Or is his word not so innerant?

 

[motyxia]

Now, what's the diff between spirituality and religion?

Many japanese believe in Shinto spirits and Japan is either 65% Shinto or only 3% Shinto, because it's a spiritual practice and spiritual practise is not religion. Of course, since many Shintos are also somehow Buddhists, so it's also a religion, Japan is officially 66% Buddhist and 65% Shinto, for a total of 131% of religious population out of 100% possible.

Is belief in spirits not the same as belief in gods? Is the only difference a lack of necessary violence in favor of spirituality?

I don't have an answer, just want to say this is a really good question (what makes something a religion). I don't think anyone here (me too) will be able to answer this. Religious studies scholars struggle to define religion. There's even ideas about secular religion, American Civil Religion as an example. It's really interesting, if you're interested in it, a channel on YouTube called Religion for Breakfast has some very short easily understandable videos talking about the idea of American Civil Religion.

 

[Scribble Fan]

I'm a proud worshipper of Satan

 

[Shadowplay]

Think mental health gaining more understanding in church eg depression as illness etc

If you mean those in the church think that suicide is not a sin because it is due to mental illness then that is understandable. But that is not the same as saying that they think is suicide is good or acceptable, just that the person is not responsible for what is ostensibly an immoral act. I think many secular people hold similar idea though it gets complicated.

Not sure what you mean. I was bringing it up not being mentioned in the bible so regardless of what their opinion is it's irrelevant since there's not an objective statement on it. For moving further away from the bible I meant that in this world they're not even letting the morals in that are commanded or outright laws to matter too much to them. So, from their perspective it either doesn't matter or can be forgiven. Hence why they can be on a suicide forum. Sorry if I wasn't coherent.

So the opinion of Christians is irrelevant.. ..to the opinions of Christians? Suicide is mentioned in the Bible, but there are differing opinions on it, and I'm no theologian. But even if there was nothing in the Bible about suicide at all, it would be curious to see how Christian opinions on suicide have changed over the years.

No idea. How is that relevant?

That is exactly my point.

Finally, I am not saying people should believe in the Bible, or that I am morally judging suicidal Christians as being bad Christians. Completely separate issues.

 

[Celerity]

Atheist. I don't judge people for being religious as long as it makes them better people and they don't try to force their religious beliefs onto other people. If it comforts people that there is an afterlife and a God then that's good for them but I don't see why, if there was a God (or higher power) they would make people suffer so greatly, if he/she is real then they're the biggest asshole to ever exist.

I have the exact same attitude on the issue. When I first deconverted from Christianity, my dad would try to pressure me into arguments, and I would aim to win, but I eventually realized just how much I would be hurting him to convince him of the truth. He gets a lot of comfort from his beliefs. With his failing physical health, disability, ruined finances, and probable cognitive decline, what is to gain by revealing the truth to him in his last years?

 

[Naufrago]

I observed the posts, as in other topics, the controversy, the sarcasm, the immature disrespect.
If the religious should not force the atheist to believe in God; the atheist should not attack aggressively and sarcastically, let alone attack those who believe in a personal or impersonal God.
Here is a place to help each other and not to worsen the psychic and emotional state of people, each has its own pathology, but we are in the same boat.
Security in a personal God consists in discerning personal belief in spiritual things and in your inner experience. For all companions who have had a similar experience, no argument about God's personality or reality is necessary, while for all others who are not so sure of God, no possible argument can be convincing.

 

[DisillusionedDragon]

Antitheist

 

[Seiba]

If you mean those in the church think that suicide is not a sin because it is due to mental illness then that is understandable. But that is not the same as saying that they think is suicide is good or acceptable, just that the person is not responsible for what is ostensibly an immoral act. I think many secular people hold similar idea though it gets complicated.

In regards to mentioning I mean in regards to the morality of the act. Regardless, maybe the following would interest you? I'm an atheist and not fully brushed up on the bible so if the question is of further interest you would need to look more into yourself. As for opinions of the Christians not all of them think the same, and while suicide is in the bible as an action, the outright morality is not mentioned of the act but rather is inferred depending on the person reading -- hence the subjectivity. Sorry again if I wasn't coherent in my view point.

Suicides and suicide ideation in the Bible: an empirical survey - PubMed

Theological teaching on suicide was influenced for centuries by the biased negative opinion of the early fathers of the church and scholastic savants, but these opinions are not substantiated by a thorough reading of the Bible.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1600-0447.2005.00567.x (science hub version of the pubmed DOI)

 

[miserableforever]

I'm torn. Not against any religion, it's just that there's never any proof of it existing. Being agnostic works best for me.

 

[All Things Must Pass]

That is exactly my point.

Ah, guessed so. Well if everything can be forgiven, then it doesn't matter if suicide is a sin or not.

 

[Life sucks]

These actually doesn't matter because the whole concepts are based on natural languages. The "God" word and the related things like "afterlife" and so on are only human constructs because it's written in a human language since the beginning. If one looks at religions, they are mostly just recycled and translated ideas from previous religions.

So instead of thinking about "God", it's better to think with scientific, mathematical or logical terms.

The universe can't prove any statement universally within itself, that means without something higher like a super-universe, it's just the result of chaotic and pseudo-random processes.

However, it's an infinite loop if we assume the existence of a super-universe. The super-universe needs super-super-universe to prove a universal statement within the super-universe. And that makes an infinite loop.

On the other hand, a finite number in the super-universe loop doesn't work and the result is chaotic. Let's say there is universe and super-universe (n=2) which is equivalent to the religious thinking. The super-universe is chaotic making the universe chaotic as well. The universe can't universally prove any statement and the super-universe can't prove anything within itself and therefore can't prove anything within the universe.

 

[$nowLeopard]

These actually doesn't matter because the whole concepts are based on natural languages. The "God" word and the related things like "afterlife" and so on are only human constructs because it's written in a human language since the beginning. If one looks at religions, they are mostly just recycled and translated ideas from previous religions.

So instead of thinking about "God", it's better to think with scientific, mathematical or logical terms.

The universe can't prove any statement universally within itself, that means without something higher like a super-universe, it's just the result of chaotic and pseudo-random processes.

However, it's an infinite loop if we assume the existence of a super-universe. The super-universe needs super-super-universe to prove a universal statement within the super-universe. And that makes an infinite loop.

On the other hand, a finite number in the super-universe loop doesn't work and the result is chaotic. Let's say there is universe and super-universe (n=2) which is equivalent to the religious thinking. The super-universe is chaotic making the universe chaotic as well. The universe can't universally prove any statement and the super-universe can't prove anything within itself and therefore can't prove anything within the universe.

metaphysics exist


on the topic of OP
i was born "jewish" in israel but i want to be baptized as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Its really hard because there are surprisingly barely any church services for people other then arabs (plenty of arab christians in israel), and most churches are Catholic or some Protestant denomination. there do exist some Eastern Orthodox churches. The big ones are in the major cities tho. I have 1 near me and its in Nazareth, ill have to get into contact with it via mail.
its a problem because most of these churches are holy sites and built for visitors instead of like "regular churches", or so ive heard

 

[Life sucks]

metaphysics exist

1- "metaphysics" is a natural language construct.

2- "metaphysics" is not different than a "super-universe".

 

[$nowLeopard]

1- "metaphysics" is a natural language construct.

2- "metaphysics" is not different than a "super-universe".

thanks for the input
im too low iq for this convo....

 

[ascetic_]

metaphysics exist


on the topic of OP
i was born "jewish" in israel but i want to be baptized as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Its really hard because there are surprisingly barely any church services for people other then arabs (plenty of arab christians in israel), and most churches are Catholic or some Protestant denomination. there do exist some Eastern Orthodox churches. The big ones are in the major cities tho. I have 1 near me and its in Nazareth, ill have to get into contact with it via mail.
its a problem because most of these churches are holy sites and built for visitors instead of like "regular churches", or so ive heard

I've been considering becoming Eastern Orthodox as well. It's such a beautiful faith.

Fr. Seraphim Rose is someone I really admire.

 

[callme]

It's such a beautiful faith

One in which customs are celebrated for the sake of mindless eating and drinking, taking pictures with cooked goats or lambs in trays after having slaughetred them just for the tradition, with ridiculous pseudo-folk music in the background.

One in which most churches are decaying to rubble, except Russia where all the churches propped up by oligarchs have to have golden minarets.

One faith, where expensive cars are considered "offerings". It reeks of corruption.

Trust me, as a firsthand resident in a majority orthodox country, this branch is more mental than any baptist church in Alabama.

 

[$nowLeopard]

One in which customs are celebrated for the sake of mindless eating and drinking, taking pictures with cooked goats or lambs in trays after having slaughetred them just for the tradition, with ridiculous pseudo-folk music in the background.

One in which most churches are decaying to rubble, except Russia where all the churches propped up by oligarchs have to have golden minarets.

One faith, where expensive cars are considered "offerings". It reeks of corruption.

Trust me, as a firsthand resident in a majority orthodox country, this branch is more mental than any baptist church in Alabama.

True I guess

 

[Apricity]

Religion hurts more than it helps, and was inspired by the lack of knowledge at the time, so I have no use for it. I do respect the power of nature, however.

 

[ascetic_]

One in which customs are celebrated for the sake of mindless eating and drinking, taking pictures with cooked goats or lambs in trays after having slaughetred them just for the tradition, with ridiculous pseudo-folk music in the background.

One in which most churches are decaying to rubble, except Russia where all the churches propped up by oligarchs have to have golden minarets.

One faith, where expensive cars are considered "offerings". It reeks of corruption.

Trust me, as a firsthand resident in a majority orthodox country, this branch is more mental than any baptist church in Alabama.

Well, I guess every sect has their blemish.

I guess I meant more the spirituality, the mysticism.

Though, of course not every practitioner exemplifies the spirit of Christ.

 

[callme]

Well, I guess every sect has their blemish.

I guess I meant more the spirituality, the mysticism.

Though, of course not every practitioner exemplifies the spirit of Christ.

But they are not even close. Understand that those words mean nothing here, there is no scripture. There is no learning, songs or anything. You can hardly call it a religion. Part of the mainstream delusional narrative that everything is just fucking great.

 

[$nowLeopard]

But they are not even close. Understand that those words mean nothing here, there is no scripture. There is no learning, songs or anything. You can hardly call it a religion. Part of the mainstream delusional narrative that everything is just fucking great.

I get what you're saying in the last part. You think it's just advertising and idealism by Orthodox countries?

This is a bit new to me because Eastern Orthodoxy to me seems like one of the sects where more of practitioners are actually Saved.

 

[nex]

Hard atheism/soft atheism, you mean? I ignore hard atheism altogether since it's ridiculous to claim that unfalsifiable things are false.

Like how it's ridiculous to claim that Santa doesn't exist because it's unfalsifiable?

 

[$nowLeopard]

Like how it's ridiculous to claim that Santa doesn't exist because it's unfalsifiable?

I can pretend that Santa exists if that benefits me or society... Lol

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Like how it's ridiculous to claim that Santa doesn't exist because it's unfalsifiable?

Yep, but that's more of a technical point. As I've said, if someone is asked if Santa or Satan exists and answers no, that wouldn't be ridiculous. That's the default when you lack evidence of something supernatural existing.

 

[nex]

So if someone is asked if God exists and answers no, that's not ridiculous either?

 

[Amumu]

So there is nothing in the Bible against suicide, but they're moving further away from the Bible .. sooo??? If they think suicide is to be forgiven they still think it is a sin.



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So if someone is asked if God exists and answers no, that's not ridiculous either?

Given nobody can define God accurately, no that's not ridiculous.

I don't ask you if flying spaghettis exist.

 

[Deleted member 8579]

As G&E pointed out above, there is no such thing as "believing a little bit": If you don't fully believe something, you lack belief by definition.
It is very possible to believe in the existence of some god who exists outside the realm of our experience.
However, is the existence of an unknown, abstract, imperceptible god not indistinguishable from the absence of one?
How does one approach the task of verifying his existence?
A physicist can cherish the belief that there is a grand unifying formula that unites all branches of physics. He doesn't know what it looks like or even whether it exists at all, but he can search for it.
What sets this quest apart from the search for a god is that the physicists have the scientific method at their disposal and they are working in a (mostly) well-defined framework.
These tools are not available to those who search for a god. Attempting to use them would amount to a category error: "God does not exist because his existence cannot be scientifically proven" is a nonsensical argument.
Is then not all we are left with blind faith?
Given the choice of blindly believing or not believing at all, why should one choose the former?
Is it not much more reasonable to choose the latter as your default position?

 

[$nowLeopard]

As G&E pointed out above, there is no such thing as "believing a little bit": If you don't fully believe something, you lack belief by definition.
It is very possible to believe in the existence of some god who exists outside the realm of our experience.
However, is the existence of an unknown, abstract, imperceptible god not indistinguishable from the absence of one?
How does one approach the task of verifying his existence?
A physicist can cherish the belief that there is a grand unifying formula that unites all branches of physics. He doesn't know what it looks like or even whether it exists at all, but he can search for it.
What sets this quest apart from the search for a god is that the physicists have the scientific method at their disposal and they are working in a (mostly) well-defined framework.
These tools are not available to those who search for a god. Attempting to use them would amount to a category error: "God does not exist because his existence cannot be scientifically proven" is a nonsensical argument.
Is then not all we are left with blind faith?
Given the choice of blindly believing or not believing at all, why should one choose the former?
Is it not much more reasonable to choose the latter as your default position?

I choose to live as though a God exists, because I believe it betters humanity, and some concepts in spirituality are very real psychological and physiological processes.
The thing is that the world can exist perfectly physically with or without God. I don't think you'll find some real fallacy.

As Karl Marx said (a not so popular quote of his among many on the same topic), religion is the heart of a heartless world.

 

[Ren Elsie Jewelria]

I voted agnostic but I'm leaning towards spiritual (spiritism, etc.).

 

[ascetic_]

But they are not even close. Understand that those words mean nothing here, there is no scripture. There is no learning, songs or anything.

I'm not sure what you mean. Frankly, I wasn't trying to get into debate with anyone on religion. I understand that there are people here who despise it. Great. I wasn't here trying to proselytize, I was merely responding to $nowLeopard's interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, because it's something we happen to have in common.

I'm not sure why you have seemed to have taken offense to it?