[Article] Why people who CTB do so in secrecy and leave others to know “after the fact”

[TAW122]

So over the years, this concept and realization that piqued my attention is the fact that people who do CTB (at least a significant amount, maybe half or more?), do so in secrecy and people only know "after the fact". This means that someone who is planning to CTB, does so and only when after the attempt (presumably succeeds, but failed).

A similar example would be the same with the threat/harm assessment when done on patients or people being interrogated, (while it is not the same situation, but there are some similarities). If someone wanted to do something bad or nefarious (which I don't condone it), then why would they ever say anything that would hinder, jeopardize, or otherwise prevent them from being able to carry out their deed? So, obviously people are not going to announce or otherwise give hints at what they would do, but leaving others to learn about the outcome or results, "after the fact". Now back towards the people who do attempt CTB (whether they succeeded or not), of course they wouldn't let anyone know because they wouldn't want to be stopped or have people who would intervene, or otherwise stop them from trying to end their suffering!

With that said, I want to bring attention to the fact that there are two types of pro-lifers, one of them is more obnoxious and a nuisance, but the other one, far more dangerous and insidious.

Type I
The first type, or Type I (in this thread), is rather a dismissive, annoying, obnoxious platitude pusher. They don't really pose as much of a threat towards one's bodily autonomy, but interacting with such people does not do anything useful nor productive towards solving problems. Most of us probably just try to ignore such people and avoid interacting with them (just as they ignore the truth or refuse to acknowledge or entertain anything that challenges their worldview).

Type II
The second type, or Type II (in this thread) is far more sinister, insidious, and dangerous towards our personal freedom and civil liberties. This is because they are paternalistic, profiling (especially those in the medical field and/or positions of power), and even invasive, intrusive, all in the name of public health and safety. They don't care that people's civil liberties and bodily autonomy are being trampled upon, instead they see it as some heroic action, even if it may leave said person in a far worse position, financially, socially, and/or mentally.

So what was the purpose of this thread some may wonder? Well, I wrote this thread to emphasize and bring light to the fact that there are often stories of the bereaved lamenting and protesting the fact that there are people who CTB'd, and how it impacted them. Yes, I can acknowledge and understand that losing someone (in any way) does bring emotional trauma and harm. However, on the same token, because we live in a prohibitive society in which the right to die is not treated as an individual's civil human right and (ultimate) expression of bodily autonomy, we get situations like this. Instead, the CTB prevention programs and policies make no distinction between impulsive and hasty versus careful and deliberate CTBs; they lump them into the same category. Furthermore, people who try to challenge or criticize such labels and assertions are often shut down, censored, and threatened with further consequences, thus leaving such labels and assertions to be unfalsifiable. It also doesn't help the fact that psychiatry and the medical field has such roots in paternalism (similar to religion back in the ancient days), but I digress as that would be another thread and topic altogether. So with that said, this article explains why most people don't find out until "after the fact" that someone has attempted or went through with CTB (whether the outcome is success, or failure).

 

[FuneralCry]

In my opinion I'd always see it as a terrible idea being open about wanting to die/plans to die, being secret about it is all that makes sense to me. Being open will just lead to more suffering, I find it so hellish how we exist in this world where humans refuse to accept the fact that we all have a right to die and want to force others to suffer, I really wish suicide is accepted as a personal choice.

 

[Illegal Preclear]

If Coercive Care did not exist in our Psychiatric System (which is a crime. Kidnapping and imprisonment of someone who didn't commit a crime is a CRIME) I'll bet you dollars to donuts people would be more willing to open up to those closest to them about their desire to CTB. And in doing so, it might actually change the person's perspective (if it can be changed, like many things it's a sort of spectrum where someone might not be too far gone and can be 'turned around' so to speak by the right support network.) As such - all it takes is one person making that phone call to the Authorities and the person is in for a WORLD of TRAUMA. Not to mention the practicalities that being locked up involuntarily with NO CONTACT with the outside world (believe me when I tell you, you're better off in Prison than in a Psych Ward - they allow you to handle your affairs and give you basic human rights in Jail to an extent) involve - not being able to pay bills, missing work etc. etc.

It's very intentionally cruel. It's not a broken system, it's a system working as intended. If it was about caring and saving lives, would they really be indifferent to you being homeless once you're out of that facility? At best it's about the $$$ you generate by being in that hospital bed, at worst it's active, malignant sadism.

It's so ironic how many CTBs could have been PREVENTED without intervention by Psychiatry.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Instead, the CTB prevention programs and policies make no distinction between impulsive and hasty versus careful and deliberate CTBs; they lump them into the same category.

Absolutely, this right here is such a problem because there's no distinction between impulsive and well-planned ctb attempts in their eyes, they're all treated the exact same.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think there are further reasons too. From my perspective, I'm not convinced people in my life would try to have me sectioned. They may come up with annoying platitudes though. But, those aren't my main reasons for not telling them. Mine are- because I truly don't think there's anything they could do to help me. I think they might try though. They'd make the effort for a while and they'd worry but, they'd also know full well that I had ideation even as a child. So- part of them will no doubt think- she's lasted this long. And realistically- no one can 'baby sit' forever. Especially from hundreds of miles away. Their efforts will start to peter out and then one day- I may actually CTB. Seeing as they knew I was suicidal- I worry they'd have more guilt that they 'should' have done more. I don't want them to have that. I'd rather they didn't know so that- if and when I do do it, they can reassure themselves with: 'We had no idea things were that bad.'

The other argument I'd make is learned behaviour. There are people on here who feel hurt because they are telling their loved ones that they are suicidal but- they don't seem to take them seriously. While it's really sad and not massively forgiveable, I think part of that can be down to overexposure. Not that it's that person's fault but, if they keep telling people how bad things are- they've never been worse, this is it- they really think they'll do it this time. But- that goes on for months or years- people sometimes seem to run out of sympathy. Sometimes, it doesn't even need to be repeated vents. They may just not be willing to hear or talk about suicide at all- so- they kind of shut them down from the start. Of course- none of that helps the person feeling like that. They no doubt do feel in a terrible place and now they've plucked up the courage to tell someone- that person doesn't really want to know. I think that response can be so hurtful and I expect that can put someone off telling that same person or others in the future.

It doesn't even need to be as extreme as that either. Sometimes I've shared simply problems with people and just got ridiculous- literally ridiculous responses: 'You could still do anything with your life- become an astronaut.' Really? A 44 year old fat, fairly stupid woman with no interest in space. I don't think I'd be NASA's first choice somehow! But yeah- sometimes just receiving silly, throw away responses or platitudes that effectively finish the conversation: 'Things will get better, I promise' is enough to make you think- as much as you might love and value this person, they're simply not the person to go to with serious issues!

So, I think it can also be that the people we do tell don't have the patience to actually listen and help. Or, they do but we know deep down they can't help so, telling them seems like it would just needlessly worry them for longer.

Not that I believe people are wrong for telling their loved ones by the way. There's the argument that, by telling them, it will come as less of a shock. They can start mentally preparing themselves for it. Plus, there's the added bonus that they could potentially properly say goodbye and value the time they have left together. I think that's a really personal thing though. I expect we all know our loved ones best to know which would be more beneficial to them. Plus of course- people considering recovery would very likely tell their loved ones in order to get their understanding and support.

But, I agree, there are multiple reasons why people don't tell others. I expect the main one is like you say- so they don't try and stop them but, there are plenty of others.

Simply that suicide and death in general are things we don't tend to discuss doesn't actually help at all. Making something taboo doesn't make it go away! It simply forces people to be secretive about it. That really isn't something 'normies' should even want! If people felt able to talk about how they were feeling right from the start- some may actually change their minds I would think. Rather than it festering inside them. I think sometimes these 'normies',pro-lifers and even therapists(!) 'cut off their nose to spite their face.' Why do they actually think that forbidding talking about suicide will make people stop thinking and wanting it?

 

[EmptyHeaded]

However, on the same token, because we live in a prohibitive society in which the right to die is not treated as an individual's civil human right and (ultimate) expression of bodily autonomy, we get situations like this.

I suppose not entirely related to this post, but maybe interesting nonetheless: the German Federal Constitutional Court decided that suicide is a fundamental right, and: "The right to a self-determined death is not limited to situations defined by external causes like serious or incurable illnesses, nor does it only apply in certain stages of life or illness. Rather, this right is guaranteed in all stages of a person's existence." Sadly, assisted suicide is not legislated or regulated, so nobody offers it (yet).
I guess it's a step in the right direction though.

 

[Illegal Preclear]

Absolutely, this right here is such a problem because there's no distinction between impulsive and well-planned ctb attempts in their eyes, they're all treated the exact same.

Not so fun fact: Most strictly impulsive CTB attempts are a result of Psychiatric Drugging. I'm not shaming people who take medication, as I'd just be shaming myself, but the antipsychotic I'm on has ironically made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. The only reason I still take it is because I WANT to be pushed over the edge because my life is a dead end anyway - my only two future possibilities are either homelessness or permanent institution. There's really no reason to go on for the severely mentally disabled SO -

I suppose not entirely related to this post, but maybe interesting nonetheless: the German Federal Constitutional Court decided that suicide is a fundamental right, and: "The right to a self-determined death is not limited to situations defined by external causes like serious or incurable illnesses, nor does it only apply in certain stages of life or illness. Rather, this right is guaranteed in all stages of a person's existence." Sadly, assisted suicide is not legislated or regulated, so nobody offers it (yet).
I guess it's a step in the right direction though.

That's why when I hear things like the above I have hope. Between this and Canada it gives me hope that CTB becomes accessible for the disabled and all others who've reached the end of their story in all ways except biologically. Of course, I live in the US which is a Pro-Life hell hole with a for-profit prison system - which I've said again and again extends seamlessly to the mental health system. I hate this. I shouldn't have to worry so much about the Hell that awaits me if I FAIL at attempting CTB. This could be a peaceful thing for me, but instead it has to be so scary - and NOT because of the death part. Sorry to ramble but I'm reaching the point where I HAVE to end my life but I'm so scared of being sent into the hands of the Psychiatric system if I fail...f*ck. Suicide is a human right. Let people whose stories have ended END THEMSELVES.

And I hear you all about the platitudes. Words are wind. Like farts. And those platitudes are just mouth-farts from privileged, non-disabled mouths.

 

[TAW122]

In my opinion I'd always see it as a terrible idea being open about wanting to die/plans to die, being secret about it is all that makes sense to me. Being open will just lead to more suffering, I find it so hellish how we exist in this world where humans refuse to accept the fact that we all have a right to die and want to force others to suffer, I really wish suicide is accepted as a personal choice.

Indeed, and this is why people stay in secrecy (especially those who really wish to die and don't want to risk intervention) and as a consequence, once the attempt/act is done (whether successfully or unsuccessfully), the impact is only felt after the fact. It will (sadly) continue to be that way until society accepts CTB as a personal choice and not the product of a defective brain.

If Coercive Care did not exist in our Psychiatric System (which is a crime. Kidnapping and imprisonment of someone who didn't commit a crime is a CRIME) I'll bet you dollars to donuts people would be more willing to open up to those closest to them about their desire to CTB. And in doing so, it might actually change the person's perspective (if it can be changed, like many things it's a sort of spectrum where someone might not be too far gone and can be 'turned around' so to speak by the right support network.) As such - all it takes is one person making that phone call to the Authorities and the person is in for a WORLD of TRAUMA. Not to mention the practicalities that being locked up involuntarily with NO CONTACT with the outside world (believe me when I tell you, you're better off in Prison than in a Psych Ward - they allow you to handle your affairs and give you basic human rights in Jail to an extent) involve - not being able to pay bills, missing work etc. etc.

It's very intentionally cruel. It's not a broken system, it's a system working as intended. If it was about caring and saving lives, would they really be indifferent to you being homeless once you're out of that facility? At best it's about the $$$ you generate by being in that hospital bed, at worst it's active, malignant sadism.

It's so ironic how many CTBs could have been PREVENTED without intervention by Psychiatry.

Well said and well put. Getting rid of "coercive care" (including physical violence to detain, kidnap, and assault patients in the name of safety) will be a big major step in getting people to voluntarily seek help. It is also far more effective for the patient as the help is something that is voluntarily chosen rather than being forced into it. Also, yes, the way the system is set up causes more casualties in the long term, but many psychiatric apologists and pro-lifers don't accept that fact (or deliberately choose to ignore that and double down on their confirmation, selection bias). The sad fact is that the psychiatric field doesn't allow skepticism and/or questioning of their tenets and practices, which is why some people would liken that field to "secular religion" or "modern day inquisition" or similar terms, but I digress.

Absolutely, this right here is such a problem because there's no distinction between impulsive and well-planned ctb attempts in their eyes, they're all treated the exact same.

Yes, well said. I would believe that the first major step would be to demedicalize, destigmatize, and change the perception of CTB from being the product of a defective, irrational mind, to that of a personal choice and not always the symptom of a 'mental illness' (of course, the label of MI is often unfalsifiable and not really grounded in objective scientific terms but rather social mores and subjective standards of those in charge/with power). Until then, society continues to reap the consequences of prohibition.

I think there are further reasons too. From my perspective, I'm not convinced people in my life would try to have me sectioned. They may come up with annoying platitudes though. But, those aren't my main reasons for not telling them. Mine are- because I truly don't think there's anything they could do to help me. I think they might try though. They'd make the effort for a while and they'd worry but, they'd also know full well that I had ideation even as a child. So- part of them will no doubt think- she's lasted this long. And realistically- no one can 'baby sit' forever. Especially from hundreds of miles away. Their efforts will start to peter out and then one day- I may actually CTB. Seeing as they knew I was suicidal- I worry they'd have more guilt that they 'should' have done more. I don't want them to have that. I'd rather they didn't know so that- if and when I do do it, they can reassure themselves with: 'We had no idea things were that bad.'

The other argument I'd make is learned behaviour. There are people on here who feel hurt because they are telling their loved ones that they are suicidal but- they don't seem to take them seriously. While it's really sad and not massively forgiveable, I think part of that can be down to overexposure. Not that it's that person's fault but, if they keep telling people how bad things are- they've never been worse, this is it- they really think they'll do it this time. But- that goes on for months or years- people sometimes seem to run out of sympathy. Sometimes, it doesn't even need to be repeated vents. They may just not be willing to hear or talk about suicide at all- so- they kind of shut them down from the start. Of course- none of that helps the person feeling like that. They no doubt do feel in a terrible place and now they've plucked up the courage to tell someone- that person doesn't really want to know. I think that response can be so hurtful and I expect that can put someone off telling that same person or others in the future.

It doesn't even need to be as extreme as that either. Sometimes I've shared simply problems with people and just got ridiculous- literally ridiculous responses: 'You could still do anything with your life- become an astronaut.' Really? A 44 year old fat, fairly stupid woman with no interest in space. I don't think I'd be NASA's first choice somehow! But yeah- sometimes just receiving silly, throw away responses or platitudes that effectively finish the conversation: 'Things will get better, I promise' is enough to make you think- as much as you might love and value this person, they're simply not the person to go to with serious issues!

So, I think it can also be that the people we do tell don't have the patience to actually listen and help. Or, they do but we know deep down they can't help so, telling them seems like it would just needlessly worry them for longer.

Not that I believe people are wrong for telling their loved ones by the way. There's the argument that, by telling them, it will come as less of a shock. They can start mentally preparing themselves for it. Plus, there's the added bonus that they could potentially properly say goodbye and value the time they have left together. I think that's a really personal thing though. I expect we all know our loved ones best to know which would be more beneficial to them. Plus of course- people considering recovery would very likely tell their loved ones in order to get their understanding and support.

But, I agree, there are multiple reasons why people don't tell others. I expect the main one is like you say- so they don't try and stop them but, there are plenty of others.

Simply that suicide and death in general are things we don't tend to discuss doesn't actually help at all. Making something taboo doesn't make it go away! It simply forces people to be secretive about it. That really isn't something 'normies' should even want! If people felt able to talk about how they were feeling right from the start- some may actually change their minds I would think. Rather than it festering inside them. I think sometimes these 'normies',pro-lifers and even therapists(!) 'cut off their nose to spite their face.' Why do they actually think that forbidding talking about suicide will make people stop thinking and wanting it?

Excellent post and you present very solid arguments. Sure there are people who may want recovery, and that is valid too, however, yes I think that the people who spew platitudes and toxic positivity to others aren't doing the person any favors, but only to satiate their own insecurities (like you mentioned - the person cannot effectively help said person who is suffering, but is just a way to absolve themselves of the guilt so they won't themselves feel as bad). I'm sorry to hear about the annoying platitudes about the astronaut example, and I can understand why you'd take offense to that. I would too, especially if someone jumped to conclusions and presumptuously assumed they know what is best or what I wanted despite not having lived my life nor shared the same conscious as I.

Finally, yes I fully agree, that making something taboo doesn't make it go away, but instead, it just incentivizes people to go underground, go in secrecy, and whatever the outcome or result may be, would just be that (be it collateral trauma or something else). I do think that the pro-lifers and psychiatry apologists seem to cut off their nose to spite their face because, if they had common sense and understanding, they know that prohibition doesn't lead to better results, especially in the long run. Sure, they may stop the person from wanting to go, but there will be many others who will just secretly do so (whether success or failure) and then the pro-lifers will only find out "after the fact", all because there are draconian and harsh social and many consequences for CTB ideation and/or planning or attempting. This is similar to the war on drugs, civil rights, LGBT rights and many other marginalized groups throughout history.

I suppose not entirely related to this post, but maybe interesting nonetheless: the German Federal Constitutional Court decided that suicide is a fundamental right, and: "The right to a self-determined death is not limited to situations defined by external causes like serious or incurable illnesses, nor does it only apply in certain stages of life or illness. Rather, this right is guaranteed in all stages of a person's existence." Sadly, assisted suicide is not legislated or regulated, so nobody offers it (yet).
I guess it's a step in the right direction though.

It is indeed a step in the right direction. I also stand by the quote that EG (existentialgoof) once said,

Most of the time, the argument for the right to die focuses on trying to win a positive right. But all we really need is to demonstrate that the government is unjustly stopping us from ending our suffering through these paternalistic suicide prevention laws.

At minimum, the government should be required to curtail its nanny state suicide prevention schemes; which are an overt violation of the negative liberty rights of individuals.

I've bolded the parts where I find it is relevant. In essence, if we cannot acquire the most peaceful methods or if the government isn't willing to provide us said exit, then the least it can do is to not have the authority to intervene against one's will in the name of safety and health.

Not so fun fact: Most strictly impulsive CTB attempts are a result of Psychiatric Drugging. I'm not shaming people who take medication, as I'd just be shaming myself, but the antipsychotic I'm on has ironically made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. The only reason I still take it is because I WANT to be pushed over the edge because my life is a dead end anyway - my only two future possibilities are either homelessness or permanent institution. There's really no reason to go on for the severely mentally disabled SO -



That's why when I hear things like the above I have hope. Between this and Canada it gives me hope that CTB becomes accessible for the disabled and all others who've reached the end of their story in all ways except biologically. Of course, I live in the US which is a Pro-Life hell hole with a for-profit prison system - which I've said again and again extends seamlessly to the mental health system. I hate this. I shouldn't have to worry so much about the Hell that awaits me if I FAIL at attempting CTB. This could be a peaceful thing for me, but instead it has to be so scary - and NOT because of the death part. Sorry to ramble but I'm reaching the point where I HAVE to end my life but I'm so scared of being sent into the hands of the Psychiatric system if I fail...f*ck. Suicide is a human right. Let people whose stories have ended END THEMSELVES.

And I hear you all about the platitudes. Words are wind. Like farts. And those platitudes are just mouth-farts from privileged, non-disabled mouths.

Sorry to hear about your suffering and I hope you find the peace you are looking for. I agree with your points and as someone who lives in the US, I too have arrived that I may just have to take my own decision into my own hands since MAID is not legal in most of the states (including the one I reside in) and also for those that do have it, only limited to the "terminally ill", meaning those who have less than six months to live and also other criteria. So unfortunately, those whose condition may be non-physical and non-terminal, they will be denied even by the DWD organizations.