Discussion Are there bad reasons to CTB?

[_Gollum_]

Just curious what the split is on SaSu.

For my part I don't think there's such thing as a "bad" reason to CTB. It is not up to me to decide how much pain is too much pain for someone whose subjective experience will always remain unknown to everyone but themself. If their first breakup at 18 is too much to bear, then it's too much to bear.

Whether or not they would be able to handle such a thing in the future is beyond the point for me because I don't think the individual loses anything by dying and I don't see how having a good life is better than nonexistence. Whether they would regret it is also moot because you can't regret anything when you're dead.

Not to mention that their purported "reason" might actually just be the final nail in the coffin; there might have been a whole accumulation of reasons to CTB beforehand.

 

[GodChallengesMe]

I think there are.

I would never kill myself for romantic reasons for example. No matter how heartbroken I might ended up, I would swallow it and move on. No person is worth it to take your life over, especially when they no longer give a damn about you and move on completely from you.

One reason I see CTB as an escape from suffering is when someone has incurable medical conditions that affect their quality of life on a daily basis and in significant ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be terminal illness though. Anything that makes life no longer enjoyable to the fullest might trigger the person to CTB if the condition they experience is not reversible by any means and it affects them mentally on a daily basis. They might not feel terrible physical pain but the fact that they are no longer healthy and have handicaps normal people don't experience on a daily basis is enough to wreck havoc on their mental system and consider CTB as a rational choice. I myself am the example of this.

Another compelling reason to CTB is when a person is unable to connect with others in a meaningful way, be it making friends, intimate relationships or business affairs. The reason is always out of person's control like having mental conditions or being unable to fit in (due to low self esteem which might be objectively true due to unfortunate genetic makeup).

Other than the reasons outlined above, I don't see it why should one consider CTB rationally. Everything else is transient in this life except those two things which I see as inescapable unless one pulls the trigger to CTB and end the suffering. I hope that those people will either find peace and get rewarded for enduring such unfortunate realities on this planet or simply vanish in which case they won't know anything after death (which is better than ending up in similar or worse realities from which they escaped here).

 

[TAW122]

I want to preface this by saying that whatever reason one chooses (good, bad, or what not) to CTB is ultimately their choice and it's not my place to dictate what they do or don't do. Though with that said, to answer this question based on my beliefs and values, I voted for "other" because, from an objective standpoint, I do think there are valid reasons to CTB, not necessarily 'good' or 'bad' because that is subjective. My point is more focused on objective reality and what not.

So for me, let's consider two examples, person A and person B.

Person A CTBs because of lifelong conditions and also financial issues, never catching a break (or likely poor until they die of natural causes - not likely to win lottery or some windfall). Whether or not it is good or not is up to A to decide, nobody else. Objectively, from a universe perspective, it makes sense because it is grounded in reality, person A is suffering from a real ailment (poverty, financial struggles until end of life, and other conditions in their life to make it not worth living for person A).

Person B CTBs because of the belief that some imaginary fairy figure or mythical beast will come down to wreck havoc and to do so to avoid such a future or what not, like aliens coming down to kidnap humanity or something bizarre (or whatever floats B's boat). It is not a matter of good or bad, but rather that it is considered irrational or not sound of mind if B does so, because it is not founded on real evidence or reality, but imaginary. Ultimately, if B decides to go, it's B's business and nobody else's, but yes from an objective standpoint, it's not rational but if we really respected bodily autonomy, we wouldn't indefinitely deny B their exit. A fair compromise for B would be to waitlist B and if B's persist and just generally not willing to live then B should be allowed to go (if we are consistent with the pro-choice stance), but I digress.

In the end, whatever one does whether it is to CTB or not, it's ultimately their business. Even if I don't think it's rational based on objective stance, I would still hold a laissez faire approach because it's ultimately their life even if it is a bad decision. We allow people to make (sometimes permanent) bad life decisions and it would be hypocritical of society to deny that to CTB but allow it for other (permanent) bad decisions.

 

[Kalista]

"Are there bad reasons to CTB?"

no, never

any reasoning beyond this is gatekeeping mentality. nothing supersedes a person's right to kill themselves for whatever reason unless they let it.
imposing a belief system onto someone who wants to kill themselves as if their 'belief' is the 'correct' way to view and live life is ignorant. it assumes their own view holds more weight over someone else's pain and choice, as if there's a universal, objective standard for what qualifies as 'acceptable' suffering.

 

[PI3.14]

I would say yes, especially for situations or things that can be positively changed in a very short period of time.

However, I do believe that most people who kill themselves, they do it due to difficult or unsolvable situations.

 

[SilentSadness]

In my opinion, everyone has a good reason to ctb regardless of whether that's the reason they give, because we live in a world of danger and suffering. So even though there are bad reasons to ctb, everyone has a good reason to ctb.

 

[33K1LLM3]

I think most reasons to ctb are valid. The part where I don't think it is valid are the instances when one does to something in order to ctb where they bring people who don't want to ctb with them, which is completely invalid as in the case of Germanwings Flight 9525

 

[cowplantabduction]

I don't think suicide should be done impulsively, just as I don't think getting married or having a child should be done impulsively. There are "bad" reasons to CTB just as there are "bad" reasons to marry someone or have a baby. But I still think people should have a right to do these things regardless.

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't really see why it'd need a reason in the first place, it's an individual decision and anyway death will happen no matter what whether there is a reason behind it or not, I don't see why voluntary death would need to be justified especially as to me this existence is so futile, it's just waiting to die anyway, I could never see any point to any of this, for me simply just existing is enough to make me wish for death.

 

[-Link-]

This just doesn't register with me at all, like it's not something I think about either consciously or subconsciously.

"You have a valid reason to die."
"You do not have a valid reason to die."

This seems as if it's a roundabout way to invalidate somebody's suffering, which (at best) is unhelpful.

Also, I wouldn't discriminate against an impulsive suicide. It may be impulsive at the time it happens, but people don't just spontaneously decide to die. There will have been a lead-up to it, and I wouldn't figure it my place to judge those circumstances any more than somebody's calculated decision.

Is there a difference between the terminally ill patient who wants to avoid guaranteed suffering in the end, and a teenager who just broke up with their partner? Of course there's a difference, and I'll spend every ounce of energy I have trying to encourage the teenager to give life a chance, but it wouldn't be for judging their reason as "bad".

In all of this as far as judgements: Exception to doctors and other support workers assessing people for medical assistance in dying. And exception to loved ones who should be left to do and say whatever they need to do and say in order to survive, themselves.

 

[Anonymousa]

I would say the reason is only bad if you have children as they need you to take care of them, especially if you are a biological parent of that child as you forcefully created them so its 100% your obligation to take care of them (tho if the child was caused by SA this doesn't apply)

Otherwise I would say their ain't any bad reason to ctb as we were forced into this existence so it absolutely fair to choose to exit it when we want to and with what you said here:

Whether or not they would be able to handle such a thing in the future is beyond the point for me because I don't think the individual loses anything by dying and I don't see how having a good life is better than nonexistence. Whether they would regret it is also moot because you can't regret anything when you're dead.

For impulsivity I would only say its bad when it comes to planning a suicide as that would more likely cause failed attempts and more suffering but it is succeeds, who am I to judge cus again of the above reason you mentioned.

Also that people have different resiliences to different forms of suffering so its completely subjective whether its something that can't be handled by the individual. A lot of people would find my reason to ctb to be bad as its mainly from a break up but I am still suicidal and suffering even more greatly now despite it being 3 years past that, especially as more bad things have happened from it, so for me it would have been better for me if I died during that time as a teenager instead of being forced to continue this life I have now. Me recovering isn't guaranteed so I wish I died then instead of being forced to go through the risk of more harm by continuing my life.

 

[fallendevil]

I disagree with young children CTB unless they've been abused so badly that they develop severe PTSD or DID (ex; Lauren Kavanaugh) or children who are extremely violent and anti social and show no signs of improving their behavior with puberty. I dislike when i see news stories of children dying over school bullies when they're not even 13 years old.

 

[brokenspirited]

To preface, I fully understand why someone will take this course of action and I don't seek to claim moral superiority over anyone.

Catching the bus to escape justice for the crimes one has committed, or to avoid paying back debts (banks not included) is a pretty scummy thing to do in my opinion.

And I admit that given the circumstances, I will most likely do the same.

 

[celtistan]

Undoubtedly, I believe ctb is only for people in one or more of these categories:

* have permanent disability (e.g leg amputee, paralysis, blindness, etc)

* chronic sickness suffering and unbearable pain (e.g kidney failure, untreatable cancer, etc)

* ruined remaining life pitfalls (e.g ending up homeless, facing jail, going bankrupt, etc)

What i believe ctb is NOT for:

* relationship issues (e.g divorce, cheating, etc)

* transient issues or shocks (e.g parent death, rape victims, etc)

In summary, i believe ctb is only for those destined to live permanent torment whose life is a burden upon himself, and others.

 

[FoxSauce]

I dont think cbt to escape somwthing you planned to hurt or execute a plan just to escape justice isnt right.

Ofc im no law enforcement nor a criminal.

Just that one in general or make someone suffer or making someone stay ina relationship by threats (ofc depends on circumstances.)

 

[Daphne]

I don't believe people should off themselves willy nilly.
I'll use an example from my own life. I desperately wanted to ctb after my brother died and my mother told me off. I held myself back because my mother would have had satisfaction from it and robbed me of anything valuable I had. So I decided I needed to hold off.

You don't want to give the haters any satisfaction that they pushed you over the edge.

 

[dollangel]

for me, I think it depends on how you define "bad." I don't think I'd ever view anyone's reason as bad in the sense of, say, being stupid, or something... like stated in the OP, if it's too much for you, it's too much. nor would I view it as "bad" in a moral sense on principle (infinitely nuanced circumstances notwithstanding). but I think I have to veer on the side of "yes, only if it's impulsive," simply because it's a permanent solution that one might regret, and/or not be entirely serious about, because of that impulsive aspect. in other words, something easily preventable? maybe.

I know I've had several impulsive moments throughout my life that I've been able to bring myself down from and not go through with, and ultimately afterwards I know it would've been worse if I hadn't-- I suppose I just think that it's a shame for someone to die on a whim, especially if they'd be able to fight off the thoughts if they just gave themselves a bit more time to calm down, especially if things would be better for them afterwards. but even so, it is still their right, so it doesn't necessarily neatly fit into the descriptor of "bad".. maybe. I also feel that thinking of it as "bad" comes with an air of judgement that I don't have.. I wouldn't judge anyone for it, but I would find it regrettable. I guess ultimately this answer is more of an "it depends."

Also, I wouldn't discriminate against an impulsive suicide. It may be impulsive at the time it happens, but people don't just spontaneously decide to die. There will have been a lead-up to it, and I wouldn't figure it my place to judge those circumstances any more than somebody's calculated decision.

I also agree with this. it's kind of just... a very nuanced subject, I think. I suppose when I speak of "impulsive" in this reply, I was thinking of the hypothetical scenario where there is no lead-up, and it is, say, the product of solely a sudden negative event that can be recovered from, for example.. but even then, it's still very nuanced... and in the end, I'm not sure I'm comfortable making claims of whether something like this is "bad" or not, with all that carries with it. but it is interesting to think about why we think of things the way we do.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it's pretty difficult to answer. Does the person have the potential to turn things around? How can anyone know that though? We don't come equipped with a crystal ball! It's very easy for other people to look at someone's life from the outside and decide they had so much potential. They're not the ones living that life though. They have no clue what it's like to be that person. To find certain things likely unbearable. Plus- they can't just assume their problems are fixable.

I definitely think the decision needs to be well thought through at least. With all the alternative ways to live considered if not actually tried.

I'm not really one to think it should only be done under extreme circumstances though- if I'm honest. Mostly because of my own experience. I've had ideation since I was 10. I'm 45 now. I held on mostly for the sake of not hurting others and I tried to make a go of life. Truthfully though, I look back and so much of it was shit! I could have spared myself all of that. What really did I gain by holding on? Not that it's all been terrible but in my own opinion, it hasn't been worth it.

So, why should I be insisting that others hold on? That it will certainly get better for them? When I simply don't know! Obviously, it's tragic when someone does get hammered so heavily by life that they decide they want out. I can't in good conscience advise either way though- I don't know their future.

Sometimes, we can see solutions that they haven't- which brings us on to a different subject really- the importance of creating a society where people can at least talk about ideation when it first appears. Without some panicked response, being ignored or being passed straight on to therapists/ psyche wards. I think that's incredibly important. That may prevent some people committing over things that indeed did have a solution.

It's so cruel though to effectively say- your pain isn't serious enough. Plus, it's a total demolition of autonomy.

 

[ginko0]

Other than the reasons outlined above, I don't see it why should one consider CTB rationally. Everything else is transient in this life except those two things which I see as inescapable unless one pulls the trigger to CTB and end the suffering. I hope that those people will either find peace and get rewarded for enduring such unfortunate realities on this planet or simply vanish in which case they won't know anything after death (which is better than ending up in similar or worse realities from which they escaped here).

Since everything in life is transient, we could say the essence of life is being transient. I wouldn't deem it irrational to simply follow the order of reality, which is transience and death.

Also, there's the Asymmetry Argument, which, rationally, seems to be correct in explaining how existence is always worse than non-existence:



Overall, whatever kind of suffering it is, if a person can't seem to escape it in their perception, the irrational thing, IMO, would be prolonging that suffering. Why force someone to stay, just for them to accumulate more suffering throughout their lives and still die?

 

[U. A.]

One of the early suicide things i came across (like, clearweb pro-therapy type stuff) put it simply as something like: we choose suicide when we no longer have the means to cope with the pain of life.

On that basis, all "reasons" are equally good.

Does that mean I think the gravity of a middle aged adult who does it because they have a degenerative health condition with no viable cure or significant treatment option, that leaves them in constant agonizing pain and little mobility, and has no meaningful social relations is on par with a 16 year old with plenty of social support, who does because their very first romantic relationship has just ended after 4 months total?

Abso-fucking-lutely not.

But that perspective comes with time and experience, and to an extent a degree of "outsider"-ness. To most people, yeah, that second example is ludicrous and if anything the kind of legitimate "that was a shame" case that the anti-suicide propagandists like to amplify to the nth degree when they come round hating on places like this.

But for that person in that situation at that time, it was a good enough reason.

 

[EmptyBottle]

if CTB is done to get back at others, but one's desire for non-existence otherwise isn't that strong, then it is potentially in vain.
CTB when something can be practically done to solve the underlying issue is unfortunate, but not necessarily in vain.
CTB when the underlying issue is a nightmare to solve (or potentially unsolvable, and/or the mitigations are nightmarish too) is... slightly unfortunate, but not in vain.

 

[kunikuzushi]

There is no bad reason to ctb. There is nothing inherently valuable about life, so why does someone need a reason, good or bad, to end it? It's going to end one day anyway and there won't be a reason for that.

 

[GoSan1]

Who are we to judge anyone's actions when our lives are as much of a mess as theirs?

To try and take one's own life is not just an easy thing to do, especially not with factors like Survival instinct and fear. Only those truly broken can move past those barriers and end it once and for all. If it's because of love, money, or even skin color. If the person is devastated about it and feels as if their lives are over, then there is no wrong and right. Just don't hurt anyone else (physically) in the process.