Antinatalism thoughts

[davidtorez]

Just a quick video to see what you guys think. I've been an antinatalist since at least 2014 or longer , read books on the subject and listened to debates and discussions by philosophers . One thing I have recently come to realise is that most procreaters believe that having children is a personal choice , an amoral decision, similar to eating pasta or not to eat pasta. I think it is the biggest moral /immoral decision anyone can make . What do you guys think?

 

[iloverachel]

I have never been a huge fan of procreation. Like I understand it is the parents choice to make, but how can people honestly look at the state of the world we are in and believeit is a good idea to bring more life into here.

Even if parents are mentally well, have no diseases to pass on, and are genuinely good people who will raise the kids right, there is still unlimited potential for things to go wrong in this hellish world, cancer can develop, people can get shot, get into accidents and lose limbs, chronic pain etc. Also kids will eventually have to deal with their own parents death

the bad in the world strongly outweigh the good, I wouldn't personally risk having kids and making them responsible for decades of suffering

 

[Havnis]

I think only respond to antinatalist is "yes I am immoral and evil by bringing children, what are you gonna do about it?"

 

[davidtorez]

I have never been a huge fan of procreation. Like I understand it is the parents choice to make, but how can people honestly look at the state of the world we are in and believeit is a good idea to bring more life into here.

Even if parents are mentally well, have no diseases to pass on, and are genuinely good people who will raise the kids right, there is still unlimited potential for things to go wrong in this hellish world, cancer can develop, people can get shot, get into accidents and lose limbs, chronic pain etc. Also kids will eventually have to deal with their own parents death

the bad in the world strongly outweigh the good, I wouldn't personally risk having kids and making them responsible for decades of suffering

Sound just like David Benatar !

I think only respond to antinatalist is "yes I am immoral and evil by bringing children, what are you gonna do about it?"

Nothing unfortunately lol. Just lament at the fact more people will have to go through the whole life thing

 

[Pluto]

Very few people would consider this sort of content when making their choice. And yet, it's still considered socially acceptable to pressure people into having children.

Worse, on the very frequent occasions when parents regret their decision and try to warn others, they tend to be shamed and censored. Nothing good comes of uninformed, biased decisions. Especially when it's the biggest possible decision in its consequences for their lifestyles as well as the risks of harm to the new generation. So all up, I don't know.

Spoiler: But I have decided to have pasta

 

[Praestat_Mori]

How can it be immoral to follow a natural desire and instinct to procreate? Some of us may find it immoral bc we use our brains and think of how worse potential children can have it when our own lives were already terrible. However natural instinct can overtake and make an "accident" happen aside from social pressures. It's a personal choice whether to procreate or not. But we humans should use our intelligence in an already overpopulated world.

In my case I never had the intention to procreate, I never had the feeling of really wanting to have a child. The fear that I wouldn't be able to provide for the child and give them a better life than I already had was always too big.If I wasn't able to fulfill this it would inevitably lead to suffering for a child and for myself.

From today's POV - not procreating - was my best ever decision in my life.

There is no right or wrong in being antinatalist or not - I think throughout a whole life time only a a minority world wide is questioning this.

 

[UmbraDweller]

Forcing someone into existence is immoral, period. The thing is, it's impossible to stop this. Everything is revolving around reproduction and people don't perceive it as something wrong, neither do other life forms. Should it be a "personal choice"? No. But it's allowed to be and it will stay like that probably forever. It's great that antinatalism is being preached and I applaud to anyone who makes some difference by creating debates about this topic though, some people might even realize and the suffering gets minimized a bit. But I came to conclusion that nothing really matters anyway. Just sit back and let the world burn. Do your part by not having kids of your own if you can, but let people be people and just fuck it all, because I have no control of whatever the fuck they decide to do. We might make a slight impact but unless this earth gets nuked or everyone magically becomes infertile what is even the point. Small impact counts, sure. If atleast one life gets prevented from being brought into misery, amazing. But does it really matter as much when the cycle keeps going nevertheless.

 

[davidtorez]

Very interesting replies so far. What do you think of what Anton says in the video?

 

[thewalkingdread]

It's not a couple's "personal" choice. By DEFINITION. (Because saying so is clearly an oxymoron...)

Anton didn't observe what i'm about to say in his vídeo.

Bringing or not bringing a new life into the world is not a personal choice for the same reasons pro-lifers, religious or not, don't want «women killing "Babies" in their tummies», because they think it's somewhat of a sinful/wrongful thing to do to a third person.

How weird is that...?! In some unexpected way, pro-lifers and "nay-lifers" agree to disagree in regards to what's at stake here: the life (or not) of a third person. Hence, we can ALL agree that decisions regarding the life of a third person are not ours to make.

This third person is the one who should be regarded as the most important person in the decision making process, but unfortunately, and frequently, her will and well-being is completely disregarded as the "heat" of the argument rises within the hysteria of every public debate.

(This somehow reminded me of a South Park episode where Kenny gets really sick and actually dies. When Kenny's last Will is finally found, it's already too late...)



All that being said....

I take the antinatalist position because it's the most logical answer to the problem of our well-being in our human predicament, since non-existence is always preferable to existence, when one doesn't exists yet.

 

[davidtorez]

It's not a couple's "personal" choice. By DEFINITION. (Because saying so is clearly an oxymoron...)

Anton didn't observe what i'm about to say in his vídeo.

Bringing or not bringing a new life into the world is not a personal choice for the same reasons pro-lifers, religious or not, don't want «women killing "Babies" in their tummies», because they think it's somewhat of a sinful/wrongful thing to do to a third person.

How weird is that...?! In some unexpected way, pro-lifers and "nay-lifers" agree to disagree in regards to what's at stake here: the life (or not) of a third person. Hence, we can ALL agree that decisions regarding the life of a third person are not ours to make.

This third person is the one who should be regarded as the most important person in the decision making process, but unfortunately, and frequently, her will and well-being is completely disregarded as the "heat" of the argument rises within the hysteria of every public debate.

(This somehow reminded me of a South Park episode where Kenny gets really sick and actually dies. When Kenny's last Will is finally found, it's already too late...)



All that being said....

I take the antinatalist position because it's the most logical answer to the problem of our well-being in our human predicament, since non-existence is always preferable to existence, when one doesn't exists yet.

I really could not have said it better myself !

Forcing someone into existence is immoral, period. The thing is, it's impossible to stop this. Everything is revolving around reproduction and people don't perceive it as something wrong, neither do other life forms. Should it be a "personal choice"? No. But it's allowed to be and it will stay like that probably forever. It's great that antinatalism is being preached and I applaud to anyone who makes some difference by creating debates about this topic though, some people might even realize and the suffering gets minimized a bit. But I came to conclusion that nothing really matters anyway. Just sit back and let the world burn. Do your part by not having kids of your own if you can, but let people be people and just fuck it all, because I have no control of whatever the fuck they decide to do. We might make a slight impact but unless this earth gets nuked or everyone magically becomes infertile what is even the point. Small impact counts, sure. If atleast one life gets prevented from being brought into misery, amazing. But does it really matter as much when the cycle keeps going nevertheless.

It has turned me into somewhat of a nihilist also, but as you say, even if I can spare one life coming into this miserable world , that's at least one life spared the misery

How can it be immoral to follow a natural desire and instinct to procreate? Some of us may find it immoral bc we use our brains and think of how worse potential children can have it when our own lives were already terrible. However natural instinct can overtake and make an "accident" happen aside from social pressures. It's a personal choice whether to procreate or not. But we humans should use our intelligence in an already overpopulated world.

In my case I never had the intention to procreate, I never had the feeling of really wanting to have a child. The fear that I wouldn't be able to provide for the child and give them a better life than I already had was always too big.If I wasn't able to fulfill this it would inevitably lead to suffering for a child and for myself.

From today's POV - not procreating - was my best ever decision in my life.

There is no right or wrong in being antinatalist or not - I think throughout a whole life time only a a minority world wide is questioning this.

Natural desire and instincts don't always lead to moral decisions, such as the desire for some to engage in unwanted sexual deeds towards unconsenting people, some people have the instinct and desire to steal , such as kleptomaniacs etc..and as has been said by another member here, saying procreation is a personal choice is an oxymoron, the sentence itself doesn't make any sense as there are more than one person being involved in this choice . But each to their own, I don't want to turn this into an argument, if i can change even one person's mind from bringing another life into this world , I'd be happy. Actually ,I believe the current trend now in alot of places is that people are having less and less children and besides, if someone has the desire to rear a child and see how it feels to become a parent one can always adopt a child and save a life instead of creating one also.

 

[UKscotty]

To me this talk about I didn't consent to be here or I wish I wasn't born etc is complete and utter nonsense.

The fact is we are here and reproducing is a key part of all life.

You can't consent to be born as its logically not even possible and makes no sense at all.

Not continuing the human race just because 0.1% of us want to CTB makes no sense to me either.

To deny people the chance of happiness and joy just because I am ill just seems very unfair to me.

 

[davidtorez]

To me this talk about I didn't consent to be here or I wish I wasn't born etc is complete and utter nonsense.

The fact is we are here and reproducing is a key part of all life.

You can't consent to be born as its logically not even possible and makes no sense at all.

Not continuing the human race just because 0.1% of us want to CTB makes no sense to me either.

To deny people the chance of happiness and joy just because I am ill just seems very unfair to me.

If you're interested in understanding antinatalism further, all of your points have been addressed. Admittedly I am too lazy to spell them out here as it'll take too long to type, but if you enjoy reading or listening to discussions there are plenty of books and videos out there I can suggest, if you're not interested that's OK too.
Just a quick thought experiment though, if you wouldn't mind answering.
Would you take a week of the most pleasurable happy times you can imagine and in return ,a week of the most tortuous suffering you can imagine? Or would you say no to the offer entirely?

 

[UKscotty]

If you're interested in understanding antinatalism further, all of your points have been addressed. Admittedly I am too lazy to spell them out here as it'll take too long to type, but if you enjoy reading or listening to discussions there are plenty of books and videos out there I can suggest, if you're not interested that's OK too.
Just a quick thought experiment though, if you wouldn't mind answering.
Would you take a week of the most pleasurable happy times you can imagine and in return ,a week of the most tortuous suffering you can imagine? Or would you say no to the offer entirely?

My life is like that anyway so it's a moot point to me.

Some days I see the true wonders and joy in life, others the depression hits again and I hate existence itself.

Your thought experiment is my life the last 25 years.

 

[bipolar22]

I have never been a huge fan of procreation. Like I understand it is the parents choice to make, but how can people honestly look at the state of the world we are in and believeit is a good idea to bring more life into here.

Even if parents are mentally well, have no diseases to pass on, and are genuinely good people who will raise the kids right, there is still unlimited potential for things to go wrong in this hellish world, cancer can develop, people can get shot, get into accidents and lose limbs, chronic pain etc. Also kids will eventually have to deal with their own parents death

the bad in the world strongly outweigh the good, I wouldn't personally risk having kids and making them responsible for decades of suffering

The thing is "normal" people don't plan on suicide. So they grow older they have to get a partner and children otherwise they will just be all alone. Their parents get old and die and then what reason would they have to exist and go to their job.
So basically they have no choice. And if their children suffer in this world of corruption its always easy to blame them for it like they have been taught from their own parents and full of shit teachers. So what choice do normies have right?
Don't matter. As long as this world ends for me.

 

[Ligottian]

Hardcore AN here. Certainly for myself.

 

[LaughingGoat]

To me this talk about I didn't consent to be here or I wish I wasn't born etc is complete and utter nonsense.

The fact is we are here and reproducing is a key part of all life.

You can't consent to be born as its logically not even possible and makes no sense at all.

Not continuing the human race just because 0.1% of us want to CTB makes no sense to me either.

To deny people the chance of happiness and joy just because I am ill just seems very unfair to me.

How can you deny happiness and joy from things which don't even exist?

 

[BardBarrie]

How can you deny happiness and joy from things which don't even exist?

I'd imagine it's about denying the potential.
Same with suffering.

 

[LaughingGoat]

I'd imagine it's about denying the potential.
Same with suffering.

There is no potential of things that don't exist and that you can't guarantee will. For example, you were born the exact person based off an exact order of DNA. If your parents had a child, but any of other sperm had fertilized the egg instead of the one that did, "you" would not exist. It would be a different person with a different order of DNA. So even the idea of saying a theoretical person "A" wouldn't exist if we stop procreating isn't relevant. A lot of our concepts about the potential of a human is based off the idea that we each have a soul waiting to enter the body at birth and if that child isn't born, that person was never realized. If the fear is missed potential of human life, then the only people living morally are fundamental religious people who believe you have to have as many children as possible.

 

[BardBarrie]

There is no potential of things that don't exist and that you can't guarantee will. For example, you were born the exact person based off an exact order of DNA. If your parents had a child, but any of other sperm had fertilized the egg instead of the one that did, "you" would not exist. It would be a different person with a different order of DNA. So even the idea of saying a theoretical person "A" wouldn't exist if we stop procreating isn't relevant. A lot of our concepts about the potential of a human is based off the idea that we each have a soul waiting to enter the body at birth and if that child isn't born, that person was never realized. If the fear is missed potential of human life, then the only people living morally are fundamental religious people who believe you have to have as many children as possible.

I don't know to be honest, I don't have any real stake in this; I'm just spitballing.

 

[prisonerofexistence]

Since it is almost impossible for antinatalism to practically succeed as philosophy as ppl will just continue to procreate no matter what,why shouldn't we focus on euthanasia instead.Like if i didn't consent to be here,playing this game.Shouldn't i atleast have the option to quit the game whenever i wanted?

 

[Beyond_Repair]

Since it is almost impossible for antinatalism to practically succeed as philosophy as ppl will just continue to procreate no matter what,why shouldn't we focus on euthanasia instead.Like if i didn't consent to be here,playing this game.Shouldn't i atleast have the option to quit the game whenever i wanted?

I'm on the same page. You can't realistically expect people to stop procreating, they just won't.

The just thing to do would to acknowledge that there are people who are suffering or otherwise don't want to be here, acknowledge that they did not have a choice in existing, and allow them the choice to leave peacefully via accessible euthanasia free from shame or guilt

 

[JustA_LittlePerson]

To me this talk about I didn't consent to be here or I wish I wasn't born etc is complete and utter nonsense.

The fact is we are here and reproducing is a key part of all life.

You can't consent to be born as its logically not even possible and makes no sense at all.

Not continuing the human race just because 0.1% of us want to CTB makes no sense to me either.

To deny people the chance of happiness and joy just because I am ill just seems very unfair to me.

Hard to find people not trying to justify themselves here.

 

[GuiltyAsSin]

I think conversations like this are a bit absurd when you consider our genetic programming. There is no stronger need than the need to procreate. It is, quite literally, why any of this exists. I just think logic/reason will alway fail in the face of overwhelming instinct that is at the cellular level.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I'm an antinatalist but it's soul destroying being one because of the reaction most of society has towards us. I don't have the will to argue it on most other forums now as it just gets nasty. The amount of times I'm asked why I'm still here, why don't I just kill myself etc. yep somehow this is allowed. You know how vicious normies get if they think you've been suicidal a bit too long and you're still here, "oh if you hate life so much just kill yourself then. No one is stopping you" it's good CTB fuel if I need a push. Ironic how this site has probably stopped me CTB yet and the normies are actually the ones that push me further towards it!

I applaud anyone putting themselves out there and bringing awareness to antinatalism and will always support them. I just realised there's no point trying to have discussions about it, we all know they'll still breed even if WW3 starts. And instead of it being about procreation it ALWAYS ends up being "if YOU don't like it, just end it" and I refuse to be subjected to that no matter how much I want to end it. That's MY choice not for anyone else to tell me.

Not everyone wants kids, it's far from an overwhelming need for me, and I'm part of the human race last time I checked. Maybe depression completely overrides that need though, it's possible, and if so at least it's good for something is all I can say.

 

[davidtorez]

I

I'm an antinatalist but it's soul destroying being one because of the reaction most of society has towards us. I don't have the will to argue it on most other forums now as it just gets nasty. The amount of times I'm asked why I'm still here, why don't I just kill myself etc. yep somehow this is allowed. You know how vicious normies get if they think you've been suicidal a bit too long and you're still here, "oh if you hate life so much just kill yourself then. No one is stopping you" it's good CTB fuel if I need a push. Ironic how this site has probably stopped me CTB yet and the normies are actually the ones that push me further towards it!

I applaud anyone putting themselves out there and bringing awareness to antinatalism and will always support them. I just realised there's no point trying to have discussions about it, we all know they'll still breed even if WW3 starts. And instead of it being about procreation it ALWAYS ends up being "if YOU don't like it, just end it" and I refuse to be subjected to that no matter how much I want to end it. That's MY choice not for anyone else to tell me.

Not everyone wants kids, it's far from an overwhelming need for me, and I'm part of the human race last time I checked. Maybe depression completely overrides that need though, it's possible, and if so at least it's good for something is all I can say.

I agree with you, I don't understand how it's so difficult to understand the difference between ending a life a starting a new life. Some people don't want to learn new ideas so forth . If I can change even one person's mind to not procreate i feel I've done a good deed. If religious people are allowed to preach their stuff , antinatalists are also. Prevention is better than cure after all

 

[thewalkingdread]