Venting An Inmate's Warning

[DTA]

So with the Left vs Right blowup that's going on right now over Charlie Kirk's assassination, I feel I need to issue a warning as a former inmate. This is gonna be long, fyi.

I try not to share too much information that could identify me (for my protection) but I will say this: I was a US federal inmate who did over ten years behind bars.

In that time I've seen a lot of shit. Everyone knows about prison gangs. While those exist in the Fed, they are lumped into "cars." For example, one may be Hell's Angel, or Aryan Brotherhood, or Peckerwood, or not even in a real gang, but you all ride with the White Boy car. Same with the Blacks. Same with Natives. Same with others. Unless your individual gangs are at war, you're in the same car. Every car has a shotcaller with lieutenants and enforcers for each dorm unit. That shotcaller may not be from your gang, but you still listen to him.
When a member of one car starts shit with someone from another car, it's called a "car wreck." This can easily lead to war if not handled.

What I have not said here on SaSu before is that I was a co-shotcaller of my car. We had no official shotcaller. There were a couple guys who declared themselves as such, but no one supported them. Myself and my cellmate were respected by our car, so whenever there was a problem they came to us, even though neither of us wanted the job. And we unwillingly handled it out of duty and a sense of what's right. So I can speak on this issue with firsthand experience. I am proud to say that one of my big achievements was building close relationships with several different cars. We worked together and were even friends. I once got into it with someone from my own car and had people from three different cars ready to defend me. That's why I'm writing this: unity.

If one of my people starts shit with, say... The White Boys, the White Boys come to me and my cellmate. We are briefed on the situation, we talk to the relevant parties. If our guy is determined to be in the wrong, we take appropriate action. That may be making him pay a debt, smashing him out, greenlighting the offended car (the White Boys in this example) to smash him out, or checking him in ("encouraging" him to tell staff he is suicidal and needs to be put in protective custody.) First and foremost it is handled by the offender's car. If a Black steals from me, I talk to their shotcaller and he sees that it's taken care of and that I am compensated. This maintains the peace in a tense environment.

That is the key: peace in a tense environment.

Now, I want to be very clear here. I am neither Democrat nor Republican. Not Left. Not Right.

What I see with Charlie Kirk's hit, the Left's reaction to it, and now the Right's rage in response... It's a car wreck.

I don't normally get in my feelings, but the things I'm hearing from the Left are outrageous. Outrageous enough to get me mad. A member of the Black car once told me after he saw me in a fight, "Man, I don't know what that was about but I know you're in the right, cause you don't fuck with anybody!" Let that be a measure of me. I'm mellow.

In my opinion, the Right would be completely justified going to war over this car wreck. Not just for the hit, but the Left car's reaction to it. People get killed in prison for saying less than I've heard Lefties say! I don't like the Right, but they are in *ahem* the right here. The Left struck. Multiple times, if you want to get technical. And the Left gloated. That leaves two choices for the Left: "Get your shit in order or we will!" In other words, war.

I hope it does not come to that. I'm out of politics now. I don't want any involvement with either side. But to the Left I will say this and only this: I'm done talking. I used to agree with you on some things, but your behavior has pushed me completely away from you and towards the Right. And I hate that.

So my ultimate point here is a message to the Left--the same message I used in prison: We are stronger together than divided. There are forces here, like the cops in prison, who WANT us to fight! When we are fighting each other we are easier to control.

Left, your people are fucking up. Get your shit in order, check your people, or it's gonna get really ugly. That's not a threat, btw, it's an observation.

I've seen exactly how ugly that can be, and I don't wish that on anyone. And I guarantee, no matter how much you front, you don't want it either. No one deserves the results that hate will bring. The car wreck is about to turn into war if you don't check yourselves. Make peace. Call out the agitators. Or, if your car won't make peace, leave the car so you don't get caught up.

What's happening right now is straight up prison bullshit, and it's not glamorous or cool. It's gonna get real if people aren't careful.

I sincerely hope it doesn't.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin.

 

[noname223]

This is an interesting post. And my reply is the problem is the prison system.

I live in Germany and the core problem is the US system that exploits vulnerable groups. The idea for justice in the US is punishment. In Europe and especially in Scandinavia the goal is to re-integrate the prisoners into society. I can understand why leftwingers are perceived as the evil in this equation (with the Kirk assassination). I wouldn't make this assassination a partisan thing though. We don't know enough about the motives of the killer thus far. The information seems ambigious.

Of course you used a prison metaphor to explain the political landscape and blind partisanship. I think though the US prison system is fundamentally wrong for example private prisons and the which attitude the police men have towards prisoners. In Germany we have a completely different approach there is less violence, also less sexual violence and less gangs in our prisons.
And probably when someone wanted to implement Germany's prison system in the US they would call it far-leftwing communism.

I don't support corporate Democracts in the US (though I think they are the lesser evil).

I don't suppport the killing of Charlie Kirk and I think some reactions of leftwingers were inapprioate. But the only chances for positive systemic change in the US are the Bernie Sanders types. And Bernie also condemned the murder of Kirk.

 

[fedup1982]

Imo the right started it all with their outrageous rhetoric. Theyre running everyone into the ground. I dont condone killing anyone but they're literally provoking such responses.

This isn't like a prison where being of a different race alone creates tension. The right are purposely taking inflammatory positions out of choice

 

[DTA]

This is an interesting post. And my reply is the problem is the prison system.

I live in Germany and the core problem is the US system that exploits vulnerable groups. The idea for justice in the US is punishment. In Europe and especially in Scandinavia the goal is to re-integrate the prisoners into society. I can understand why leftwingers are perceived as the evil in this equation (with the Kirk assassination). I wouldn't make this assassination a partisan thing though. We don't know enough about the motives of the killer thus far. The information seems ambigious.

Of course you used a prison metaphor to explain the political landscape and blind partisanship. I think though the US prison system is fundamentally wrong for example private prisons and the which attitude the police men have towards prisoners. In Germany we have a completely different approach there is less violence, also less sexual violence and less gangs in our prisons.
And probably when someone wanted to implement Germany's prison system in the US they would call it far-leftwing communism.

I don't support corporate Democracts in the US (though I think they are the lesser evil).

I don't suppport the killing of Charlie Kirk and I think some reactions of leftwingers were inapprioate. But the only chances for positive systemic change in the US are the Bernie Sanders types. And Bernie also condemned the murder of Kirk.

I agree with you about the US prison system. I knew a couple German nationals who told me about the system there.

Again, I have to keep myself as private as possible, but my crime was non-violent. The German guys said what I did would have got me a fine in Germany and perhaps required a counseling course. Instead I got over ten years (including maximum good time earned). And I got off light compared to others.

I'm not a gang member and had no prior criminal record. I had a white-collar job, a good name in my community, and volunteered with a local charity.

I'll be the first to say I'm a far worse person now than I ever was before. I've done my best to stay true to my beliefs and values, but the experience has still changed me. Especially after the systemic government corruption and cruelty I've witnessed. I have no compunction about resisting that system now.

That's a place I disagree with the Right: the tough on crime mentality. They destroy your life, take everything from you, take the best years of your life, then throw you out with nothing and permanently strip you of your "inalienable" rights and forbid you from rebuilding. A lot of guys return to crime because that's the only way they can make a living.

Imo the right started it all with their outrageous rhetoric. Theyre running everyone into the ground. I dont condone killing anyone but they're literally provoking such responses.

This isn't like a prison where being of a different race alone creates tension. The right are purposely taking inflammatory positions out of choice

I was a Libertarian, but I'm not even that anymore. I agree(ed) and disagree with both the Left and Right on different issues. But as I said, I'm done talking on those issues.

What I can say is that the race issue wasn't such a big deal in the prison, at least at the places I'm familiar with. There were white guys in the Black and Native cars, Hispanics in the White Boy car, Asians in the Hispanic Tango Blast and Paisa cars.

It was really more of a faction thing. That's why I use the prison analogy in my original post. I see that same faction mentality in the country as a whole.

 

[CatLvr]

I agree with you about the US prison system. I knew a couple German nationals who told me about the system there.

Again, I have to keep myself as private as possible, but my crime was non-violent. The German guys said what I did would have got me a fine in Germany and perhaps required a counseling course. Instead I got over ten years (including maximum good time earned). And I got off light compared to others.

I'm not a gang member and had no prior criminal record. I had a white-collar job, a good name in my community, and volunteered with a local charity.

I'll be the first to say I'm a far worse person now than I ever was before. I've done my best to stay true to my beliefs and values, but the experience has still changed me. Especially after the systemic government corruption and cruelty I've witnessed. I have no compunction about resisting that system now.

That's a place I disagree with the Right: the tough on crime mentality. They destroy your life, take everything from you, take the best years of your life, then throw you out with nothing and permanently strip you of your "inalienable" rights and forbid you from rebuilding. A lot of guys return to crime because that's the only way they can make a living.

I was a Libertarian, but I'm not even that anymore. I agree(ed) and disagree with both the Left and Right on different issues. But as I said, I'm done talking on those issues.

What I can say is that the race issue wasn't such a big deal in the prison, at least at the places I'm familiar with. There were white guys in the Black and Native cars, Hispanics in the White Boy car, Asians in the Hispanic Tango Blast and Paisa cars.

It was really more of a faction thing. That's why I use the prison analogy in my original post. I see that same faction mentality in the country as a whole.

While I have never been to prison, I have worked WITHIN the system, with men and women who served time and your observations are spot on, IMHO. I, too, am about as non-political as anyone can be. I don't care what you do as long as you aren't fucking with a child, the elderly or disabled. Or me. You get my drift -- I just want to be left alone. And yes, I am more than happy to return the favor. I have enough problems of my own -- I don't need to go manufacturing more for me by meddling in somebody else's shit. I really wish more people were like me, but alas ...

 

[WrathfulGloom32]

So with the Left vs Right blowup that's going on right now over Charlie Kirk's assassination, I feel I need to issue a warning as a former inmate. This is gonna be long, fyi.

I try not to share too much information that could identify me (for my protection) but I will say this: I was a US federal inmate who did over ten years behind bars.

In that time I've seen a lot of shit. Everyone knows about prison gangs. While those exist in the Fed, they are lumped into "cars." For example, one may be Hell's Angel, or Aryan Brotherhood, or Peckerwood, or not even in a real gang, but you all ride with the White Boy car. Same with the Blacks. Same with Natives. Same with others. Unless your individual gangs are at war, you're in the same car. Every car has a shotcaller with lieutenants and enforcers for each dorm unit. That shotcaller may not be from your gang, but you still listen to him.
When a member of one car starts shit with someone from another car, it's called a "car wreck." This can easily lead to war if not handled.

What I have not said here on SaSu before is that I was a co-shotcaller of my car. We had no official shotcaller. There were a couple guys who declared themselves as such, but no one supported them. Myself and my cellmate were respected by our car, so whenever there was a problem they came to us, even though neither of us wanted the job. And we unwillingly handled it out of duty and a sense of what's right. So I can speak on this issue with firsthand experience. I am proud to say that one of my big achievements was building close relationships with several different cars. We worked together and were even friends. I once got into it with someone from my own car and had people from three different cars ready to defend me. That's why I'm writing this: unity.

If one of my people starts shit with, say... The White Boys, the White Boys come to me and my cellmate. We are briefed on the situation, we talk to the relevant parties. If our guy is determined to be in the wrong, we take appropriate action. That may be making him pay a debt, smashing him out, greenlighting the offended car (the White Boys in this example) to smash him out, or checking him in ("encouraging" him to tell staff he is suicidal and needs to be put in protective custody.) First and foremost it is handled by the offender's car. If a Black steals from me, I talk to their shotcaller and he sees that it's taken care of and that I am compensated. This maintains the peace in a tense environment.

That is the key: peace in a tense environment.

Now, I want to be very clear here. I am neither Democrat nor Republican. Not Left. Not Right.

What I see with Charlie Kirk's hit, the Left's reaction to it, and now the Right's rage in response... It's a car wreck.

I don't normally get in my feelings, but the things I'm hearing from the Left are outrageous. Outrageous enough to get me mad. A member of the Black car once told me after he saw me in a fight, "Man, I don't know what that was about but I know you're in the right, cause you don't fuck with anybody!" Let that be a measure of me. I'm mellow.

In my opinion, the Right would be completely justified going to war over this car wreck. Not just for the hit, but the Left car's reaction to it. People get killed in prison for saying less than I've heard Lefties say! I don't like the Right, but they are in *ahem* the right here. The Left struck. Multiple times, if you want to get technical. And the Left gloated. That leaves two choices for the Left: "Get your shit in order or we will!" In other words, war.

I hope it does not come to that. I'm out of politics now. I don't want any involvement with either side. But to the Left I will say this and only this: I'm done talking. I used to agree with you on some things, but your behavior has pushed me completely away from you and towards the Right. And I hate that.

So my ultimate point here is a message to the Left--the same message I used in prison: We are stronger together than divided. There are forces here, like the cops in prison, who WANT us to fight! When we are fighting each other we are easier to control.

Left, your people are fucking up. Get your shit in order, check your people, or it's gonna get really ugly. That's not a threat, btw, it's an observation.

I've seen exactly how ugly that can be, and I don't wish that on anyone. And I guarantee, no matter how much you front, you don't want it either. No one deserves the results that hate will bring. The car wreck is about to turn into war if you don't check yourselves. Make peace. Call out the agitators. Or, if your car won't make peace, leave the car so you don't get caught up.

What's happening right now is straight up prison bullshit, and it's not glamorous or cool. It's gonna get real if people aren't careful.

I sincerely hope it doesn't.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin.

I've read it and dismissed it since I'm not from America.

Also, nobody on the left is fucking up from what I can see, the guy was saying bullshit , what the people on the left are doing is merely honoring his wishes of having no empathy because it's a new age term, Kirk's words , not mine; that was the man's wish and I respect it.

I personally wouldn't mind going to war with the right of MY country however, don't you worry about it. If someone would be dumb enough to go to war over something so pitiful like this. Who am I to not oblige? As a side note , if I were American by any chance, I'd also be ready for civil war in America just for the fact that people have elected a literal KNOWN pedophile as the president.

 

[tercermundista]

I've read it and dismissed it since I'm not from America.

Also, nobody on the left is fucking up from what I can see, the guy was saying bullshit , what the people on the left are doing is merely honoring his wishes of having no empathy because it's a new age term, Kirk's words , not mine; that was the man's wish and I respect it.

I personally wouldn't mind going to war with the right of MY country however, don't you worry about it. If someone would be dumb enough to go to war over something so pitiful like this. Who am I to not oblige? As a side note , if I were American by any chance, I'd also be ready for civil war in America just for the fact that people have elected a literal KNOWN pedophile as the president.

I've already mentioned this in another post, but the left in the United States has zero chance of winning a civil war. The American right is prepared; many are armed, and the police and military tend to be right-wing. All they'd achieve is being massacred.

 

[WrathfulGloom32]

I've already mentioned this in another post, but the left in the United States has zero chance of winning a civil war. The American right is prepared; many are armed, and the police and military tend to be right-wing. All they'd achieve is being massacred.

Mhm, and the left isn't armed at all I guess, they are all weak right? In fact when this is said time and time again by idiotic grifters who try to implant fear, the left doesn't start arming themselves AT ALL , they agree with the grifter; I'm sarcastic.

The left doesn't have any strength, they are all people that don't get out of their homes and take in 0 sunlight. The right according to your statement (and previous enactments like the Kirk fiasco) is also weak against the left (since they can't stop them from talking about Kirk in a bad light, or Trump, etc) and at the same time it's so strong that it could massacre the entire leftist population.

That's probably the funniest thing I've read today.

 

[Pluto]

 

[tercermundista]

Mhm, and the left isn't armed at all I guess, they are all weak right? In fact when this is said time and time again by idiotic grifters who try to implant fear, the left doesn't start arming themselves AT ALL , they agree with the grifter; I'm sarcastic.

The left doesn't have any strength, they are all people that don't get out of their homes and take in 0 sunlight. The right according to your statement (and previous enactments like the Kirk fiasco) is also weak against the left (since they can't stop them from talking about Kirk in a bad light, or Trump, etc) and at the same time it's so strong that it could massacre the entire leftist population.

That's probably the funniest thing I've read today.

I don't care. I'm not even from the United States, and I don't want to live there, but I would like to see that civil war that some people crave, and if I had to bet, I'd definitely bet on the right.

 

[WrathfulGloom32]

I don't care. I'm not even from the United States, and I don't want to live there, but I would like to see that civil war that some people crave, and if I had to bet, I'd definitely bet on the right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...holy shit what a tool you are.

 

[tercermundista]

Watching morons kill each other over politics is fun.

 

[Goth]

hii! please keep posts civil and dont resort to name calling
thanks!

 

[DTA]

This. This is why I'm done talking politics.

I'm not going to argue here. Especially not on SaSu. None of us are on a suicide forum because we're healthy individuals. And I don't believe any argument I make could change any political views. That ship sailed. I made my post here because this is the only forum I'm a part of. I wanted to publicly share my experiences in the hope of preventing even one person from having to experience them, while venting my frustrations.

The exchange here is what makes this exactly like prison. We don't have to like each other, but we should respect each other. Peace in a tense environment.

I promise you, all of you, you don't want a war. How many of you have been in a gunfight? When that rush of adrenaline causes the world around you to slow to a crawl and a million thoughts and fears go through your mind? How many of you have seen a man's head stomped on the concrete until his skull broke open and his eyeballs hung out of his head like fruit from a tree? Stabbings. Savage beatings. The pure hate. I have seen it.

It's not prison that makes people do those things, it's anger and hate.

That is why I made my original post. I don't want other people to have to experience those terrible things. Hence my warning. Yes, I felt the need to call out who is in the wrong and agitating. People like Hasan Piker calling for the streets to run red with the blood of landlords. For conservatives' guts to spill out. "Slice and dice." Or those desecrating memorials. It doesn't mean the people doing those things are necessarily bad people, it just means they need to check themselves. My ultimate point is, as I said, unity.

Among the terrible things I've seen, I've also seen enemies become friends. It's possible.

But we have to be civil. I issued my warning in the hope people would think about what's going on.

 

[sanctionedusage]

So.. Charlie Kirk gets killed over his right to free speech.

And you think the right is correct in pursuing the deaths of the left over their right to free speech?

Charlie Kirk supported his own death lol, borderline consented. I can elaborate if you want.

People get killed in prison for saying less than I've heard Lefties say!

That's 'cause you're in prison :) Where fucking lunatics who take everything personally & have no impulse control go. In the free world, we have something called self restraint and agreeing to disagree.

 

[DTA]

I never said that was the correct path. You misunderstand me. What I meant is that kind of rhetoric pisses people off. In a time of war people will do the same thing "out there."

I find it ironic that the left claims to represent empathy and tolerance, yet spews the most hateful shit. Sort of like calling me a fucking lunatic with no impulse control.

 

[Grav]

What's happening right now is straight up prison bullshit, and it's not glamorous or cool. It's gonna get real if people aren't careful.

True. It's normal history and may be why it's not taught much. One side pushes too far, the other retaliates and goes farther,. and so on. And then everyone cries "why did this happen?" When they looked at Rawanda and how people would kill long time neighbors the one common comment was a constant dumbeat of "the other". So by the time the plane went down all it needed was one person to point a finger and they jumped up. I've been saying this for years and it looks like we're about to see it here since nobody seems interested in stopping it. And any country that has internal fighting it's always way worse than state vs state. One day I'll get to the book I have on it, maybe when I'm done with this current one.

 

[Shadows From Hell]

Nope, not touching this thread.... I'm out!

 

[Hvergelmir]

...since nobody seems interested in stopping it.

I think there's plenty of interest. How would one go about stopping it though?

It's not like a calm political debate would cut through the noise of violence and propaganda. Lots and lots of people across the political spectrum have condemned the deed, and I think most of them sincerely so.
Legally, the perpetrator risks execution - the very highest punishment they can legally give.
What more can be reasonably done?

 

[DTA]

I think there's plenty of interest. How would one go about stopping it though?

It's not like a calm political debate would cut through the noise of violence and propaganda. Lots and lots of people across the political spectrum have condemned the deed, and I think most of them sincerely so.
Legally, the perpetrator risks execution - the very highest punishment they can legally give.
What more can be reasonably done?

In my opinion, it can still be stopped. The shooter is caught. So now the "cars" just have to quit posturing.

Some of the best people I've ever met were people I met in prison. Which is perhaps sad.

Here's a positive example. A cellphone in the prison goes for $750 to $1,700, depending on availability. For a cheap $50 Walmart phone. A white sex offender (considered the lowest on the totem pole) had just bought himself a phone and was laying on his bunk using it when someone rushed into his cell, punched him, and stole the phone. All the guy knew is the attacker was black.

The Black car tracked down the thief, who had sold the phone for dope, and checked him in. They didn't have to do that. Politically, they could have just said it was a "fuckin' chomo" and let it go. But not only did they take care of the thief, they used their own money to buy the guy a brand new phone and gave it to him, with an apology.

They don't like chomos. But they did have respect for other humans and a sense of what is right.

I think people at large can do that too. We don't have to like one another, but both sides can still choose to treat one another with respect and fairness to maintain the peace. Will it happen? We can only hope and each do our own parts. We shouldn't be afraid to call out bullshit, but we should still extend the proverbial olive branch.

 

[U. A.]

i dunno, curious about op's informed thoughts but i feel like in a prison, it's different because everyone collectively is in a hell maintained ultimately by the guards and wardens. in the world at large, i feel like politicians and pundits are the guards and wardens of the political battle (corporations could be roped in but by default they're all about exploitation so who knows where they are 'politically') so saying "everyone needs to get along!" seems less like all the inmates getting their shit in order and more like inmates and those running the prison cooperating.

trump literally congratulated ABC for axing Kimmel. from your account, it sounds like those running the cars are actually interested in order vs. chaos overall and working to that end. politicians just want to fucking win.

 

[sanctionedusage]

I never said that was the correct path. You misunderstand me. What I meant is that kind of rhetoric pisses people off. In a time of war people will do the same thing "out there."

I find it ironic that the left claims to represent empathy and tolerance, yet spews the most hateful shit. Sort of like calling me a fucking lunatic with no impulse control.

so, not only did i never call you anything, but i explicitly directed that to the types of people who would kill others for 'talking shit,' hence literally exactly why they are in prison. that's why prison exists. to confine the people who can't live normally and peacefully in society. why else do you think people go to prison, within this context? do you think someone in prison, who would go to town bashing someone's head in over looking at them the wrong way or saying something offensive, would be considered something other than a lunatic? do you think resorting to murder over an opinion is the act of someone with good impulse control? can you acknowledge that the murderer of charlie kirk is as much a lunatic as the right who want 'to go to war' over the reaction to his death? yet you defend the latter and condemn the former?

In my opinion, the Right would be completely justified going to war over this car wreck.

you also literally said it'd be justified for the right to 'go to war' over "this." justified doesn't = right path? you also said you were 'pushed to the right,' regardless of what you're saying you don't think is 'the right path.'

"this" being, what, the actions of one person who was politically unaffiliated, not sound of mind, grew up conservative/conflicted politically, or 'this' being people posting online how they feel about kirk's death? because the former are the actions of literally one person who wasn't a rep of anything by any means, and the latter is an example of free speech-- that which has literally always been used to celebrate the deaths of those whom people loathed.


if your entire point is that the outside is going or becoming as crazy as the inside, then okay. i don't think anyone could argue that. but you're inserting your own personal biases and opinion and framing it as an objective, centrist position and rejecting common sense in the correlations you're making to defend that stance.

 

[DTA]

i dunno, curious about op's informed thoughts but i feel like in a prison, it's different because everyone collectively is in a hell maintained ultimately by the guards and wardens. in the world at large, i feel like politicians and pundits are the guards and wardens of the political battle (corporations could be roped in but by default they're all about exploitation so who knows where they are 'politically') so saying "everyone needs to get along!" seems less like all the inmates getting their shit in order and more like inmates and those running the prison cooperating.

trump literally congratulated ABC for axing Kimmel. from your account, it sounds like those running the cars are actually interested in order vs. chaos overall and working to that end. politicians just want to fucking win.

You're not wrong. It's hard to say it's black and white about cooperating with the guards. There's a degree of cooperation so the guards don't have to do their job and face scrutiny. In return they look the other way on a lot of things.

But they will drop the hammer if things get out of hand. Sort of like what's happening in DC and Chicago (not taking sides on that), to continue your apt comparison. So the inmates getting along also keeps that from happening.

I think you're right -- every group wants to win. And no one likes to lose. Ultimately that's what causes war. So compromise on all sides becomes important.

so, not only did i not ever call you anything, but i explicitly directed that to the types of people who would kill others for 'talking shit,' hence literally exactly why they are in prison. that's why prison exists. to confine the people who can't live normally and peacefully in society. why else do you think people go to prison, within this context? do you think someone in prison, who would go to town bashing someone's head in over looking at them the wrong way or saying something offensive, would be considered something other than a lunatic? do you think resorting to murder over an opinion is the act of someone with good impulse control? can you acknowledge that the murderer of charlie kirk is as much a lunatic as the right who want 'to go to war' over the reaction to his death? yet you defend the latter and condemn the former?


you also literally said it'd be justified for the right to 'go to war' over "this." justified doesn't = right path? you also said you were 'pushed to the right,' regardless of what you're saying you don't think is 'the right path.'

"this" being, what, the actions of one person who was politically unaffiliated, not sound of mind, grew up conservative/conflicted politically, or 'this' being people posting online how they feel about kirk's death? because the former are the actions of literally one person who wasn't a rep of anything by any means, and the latter is an example of free speech-- that which has literally always been used to celebrate the deaths of those whom people loathed.


if your entire point is that the outside is going or becoming as crazy as the inside, then okay. i don't think anyone could argue that. but you're inserting your own personal biases and opinion and framing it as an objective, centrist position and rejecting common sense in the correlations you're making to defend that stance.

Easy now. I misunderstood you, then. I apologize.

The killer did not act alone. It's already been confirmed that he and his lover were part of 764 and that it was a conspiracy. And so many others cheered the killer on (including politicians), encouraged more violence, and defaced memorials. I'm not aware of any young Republicans desecrating memorials to George Floyd, for example.

That's why I say the right is justified. I am very pro-peace. But when one is under attack they have a right to defend themselves. I'm NOT saying they SHOULD go to war, but they would be justified if they did.

I'm being pushed to the Right because I identify less and less with the Left. When I was a young man I was considered very liberal. I was and am pro-gay rights, anti-war, support equal rights for women and all races, am against big business, and even though I don't believe in transgenderism I support people's right to live how they choose. My views have not changed since then, but now I'm considered a bigot and have recently been called that to my face. I don't like the Right, but honestly I now fear for my safety and that of my family. So I find myself being drawn to the Right for some sort of protection.

 

[sanctionedusage]

You're not wrong. It's hard to say it's black and white about cooperating with the guards. There's a degree of cooperation so the guards don't have to do their job and face scrutiny. In return they look the other way on a lot of things.

But they will drop the hammer if things get out of hand. Sort of like what's happening in DC and Chicago (not taking sides on that), to continue your apt comparison. So the inmates getting along also keeps that from happening.

I think you're right -- every group wants to win. And no one likes to lose. Ultimately that's what causes war. So compromise on all sides becomes important.

Easy now. I misunderstood you, then. I apologize.

The killer did not act alone. It's already been confirmed that he and his lover were part of 764 and that it was a conspiracy. And so many others cheered the killer on (including politicians), encouraged more violence, and defaced memorials. I'm not aware of any young Republicans desecrating memorials to George Floyd, for example.

That's why I say the right is justified. I am very pro-peace. But when one is under attack they have a right to defend themselves. I'm NOT saying they SHOULD go to war, but they would be justified if they did.

I'm being pushed to the Right because I identify less and less with the Left. When I was a young man I was considered very liberal. I was and am pro-gay rights, anti-war, support equal rights for women and all races, am against big business, and even though I don't believe in transgenderism I support people's right to live how they choose. My views have not changed since then, but now I'm considered a bigot and have recently been called that to my face. I don't like the Right, but honestly I now fear for my safety and that of my family. So I find myself being drawn to the Right for some sort of protection.

Republicans have made merch, memes, etc. of George Floyd's death since it became the face of the BLM movement. I can get you several, several links of these if you really need to see it to believe it. Though I disagree with the general BLM consensus of Floyd and I don't think his death should've been revered as much of a tragedy as, say, Breonna Taylor's. I also don't even think that's a fair comparison given Kirk is not a violent criminal even if he had violent and deranged opinions; Floyd had many aggressive convictions in his past; this is why I didn't bring him up as a way the death of someone "on the left" has been celebrated by the right.

However, Melissa Hortman is an innocent democratic lawmaker who was murdered in her home with her husband and her dog, while the killer had an additional list of targets on the left and pro-choicers, etc. No attacks from the left on the right have succeeded on grounds of this case. This killer, Boelter, has life in prison for the murder of a family + innocent animal, and a conspiracy to kill several others; Tyler Robinson is likely to get the death penalty for the murder of one person with no further conspiracy to murder others, apparently working within 764-- which isn't even leftist, so I don't really get your point here in your left vs right overview and why you think the right is more justified.

Now if I'm reading your last paragraph right, you feel drawn to the right because you need their protection in the war they started? in order to not be attacked by them? because the left didn't start with charlie kirk's assassination; robinson and 764 did, aka non leftists, and actually nihilist lunatics. i don't understand what your problem is with the left; do you think they assassinated kirk, or do you think people posting 'thank god he's dead' is seriously a justified reason for public attacks, riots, and 'war' as the right wants to proceed with?

 

[DTA]

Alright. I'm done. I said I wasn't going to talk about these things and I sorta fell into it. My bad.
I've made my warning, which was my intent. Heed it or not, that's up to the readers. I'm certainly not going to get into an argument on the Internet. Feel free to say whatever you want about me.

 

[sanctionedusage]

haha

"heres my public opinion, but no ones allowed to point out my contradictions!"

 

[Holu]

Republicans have made merch, memes, etc. of George Floyd's death since it became the face of the BLM movement. I can get you several, several links of these if you really need to see it to believe it. Though I disagree with the general BLM consensus of Floyd and I don't think his death should've been revered as much of a tragedy as, say, Breonna Taylor's. I also don't even think that's a fair comparison given Kirk is not a violent criminal even if he had violent and deranged opinions; Floyd had many aggressive convictions in his past; this is why I didn't bring him up as a way the death of someone "on the left" has been celebrated by the right.

However, Melissa Hortman is an innocent democratic lawmaker who was murdered in her home with her husband and her dog, while the killer had an additional list of targets on the left and pro-choicers, etc. No attacks from the left on the right have succeeded on grounds of this case. This killer, Boelter, has life in prison for the murder of a family + innocent animal, and a conspiracy to kill several others; Tyler Robinson is likely to get the death penalty for the murder of one person with no further conspiracy to murder others, apparently working within 764-- which isn't even leftist, so I don't really get your point here in your left vs right overview and why you think the right is more justified.

Now if I'm reading your last paragraph right, you feel drawn to the right because you need their protection in the war they started? in order to not be attacked by them? because the left didn't start with charlie kirk's assassination; robinson and 764 did, aka non leftists, and actually nihilist lunatics. i don't understand what your problem is with the left; do you think they assassinated kirk, or do you think people posting 'thank god he's dead' is seriously a justified reason for public attacks, riots, and 'war' as the right wants to proceed with?

Bruh they still mock Paul Pelosi online, and it's entirely from top down. Trump, Trump Jr, Kari Lake, Glenn Youngkin, Steve Bannon. Hell, Kirk himself literally mocked Pelosi and even called on for "a patriot" to literally bail out the psycho right wing nut job who attacked Pelosi.

I haven't seen anything of this sort from the left so far, with most major politicians condemning it and calling for an end to political violence. Even the ones who are going from the perspective of analysis aren't irking their base on as much as the right did with Pelosi.

 

[sanctionedusage]

Bruh they still mock Paul Pelosi online, and it's entirely from top down. Trump, Trump Jr, Kari Lake, Glenn Youngkin, Steve Bannon. Hell, Kirk himself literally mocked Pelosi and even called on for "a patriot" to literally bail out the psycho right wing nut job who attacked Pelosi.

I haven't seen anything of this sort from the left so far, with most major politicians condemning it and calling for an end to political violence. Even the ones who are going from the perspective of analysis aren't irking their base on as much as the right did with Pelosi.

it's pretty disgusting.

the right only cares about using charlie's death as a political weapon against the left while constantly bringing up his kids, his wife, etc. as a tool to play empathetic when in reality, they're solely angry that their political symbol was destroyed. not that a young man died. had kirk been democratic, he would've been ridiculed by them in the exact same manner as a violent criminal. this really comes to light when they start planning or actually rioting and beating on people in the streets who don't care that kirk died or are glad he did; those of which are also sons, fathers, brothers, and people just expressing their opinions on a person. if someone disagrees that expressing one's negative opinion of an assassinated person is okay, then they should agree that rhetoric and speech is actually capable of causing harm and should be regulated, including kirk's, and that he wasn't actually innocent. anyway, it's not a manner of 'regardless of if you agreed with him, someone died!' when you're wishing the exact same on people who disagree with you, and when kirk himself wished [as you brought up] the public execution of people who politically opposed him/trump. even the people charlie spoke for will never see him as more than a chess piece that got knocked off the playing field. real creepy.

 

[sanctionedusage]

Cheers Mate. These younger folks seem to have never been in a comparable personal altercation. Truly fierce keyboard warriors are never rude offline. Fucking cowards.

because posting on a public forum and getting mad when you get public responses isn't keyboard warrior behavior lol. you post something online and then demean any other perspective to "internet argument" and "keyboard warrior." i really hope you could handle hearing someone say exactly what is written in these posts in real life without flying off the handle and shooting someone in the neck with a Mauser 98.

 

[Hvergelmir]

Hell, Kirk himself literally mocked Pelosi and even called on for "a patriot" to literally bail out the psycho right wing nut job who attacked Pelosi.

I wonder; did people who repeat this actually see Kirks call for a bail out, in context?

In the other thread I looked at the source this claim is based on, which Dot generously linked:


What I saw was him ridiculing the perpetrator and the fact that he would be associated by him, jokingly calling for someone to bail him out to "ask him some questions", laughing about how ridiculous both the association, and his own suggestion was.
I interpreted the would-be patriotic/heroic action to be; interviewing him, and proving that he had nothing to do with whatever groups and beliefs Kirk represented. I interpreted the message as a whole, as them trying to distance themselves from both the perpetrator and the deed.
(Let me know if I'm completely off here. I'm more interested in communication, propaganda, and how people interpret things, than Kirk himself.)

The other thread seemed a bit too crowded and emotionally charged for serious questions like this. I sincerely wonder if this is an intentional misinterpretation that's endlessly repeated, or how people actually interpret it when viewing the source material.