Discussion Afterlife or nothingness

[Asta]

Why, Jean, are you being so nasty and unkind to someone who has never done anything to hurt you? "To think I write only for you..."? If you're not writing for me, why are you quoting my posts, not only once but three times?

You win. You've had the last word. Give your kind and loving self a pat on the back.

 

[H2H2]

I agree with your position, Jean, but one must not forget that religion and superstitious belifs in general are just that: something people believe in.

Belifs have nothing to do with science. They do not belong in science books and any attempt to investigate them using the scientific method is absurd.

We can only try to answer the question of an afterlife from a philosophical point of view, but not by using the tools science provides us with.

So, I don't think we'll ever get that extraordinary piece of evidence.

We will, however, be discussing this topic until kingdom come :-)

A user called Aponia ¬ Ataraxia posted a video a couple of months ago with another take on the subject. I dont have a scientific background so I cant know how solid what the video says is. It makes sense to me but what do I know. Maybe someone can give his/her thoughts on the video if they dont mind.



The thread is : https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...lieve-in-god-afterlife-other.1520/#post-18468

 

[JoeFailure]

I don't really get why so many times this turns into an argument or one side having to "prove" something or have the burden of proof for something.

None of us know, I always hope these threads turn more into a sharing of ideas or theories more than people trying to shut each other down.

To me...I do believe there is something after and of course it's a leap of faith. The science part to me could just be the construct that we humans are given. Or at the very least I do believe there are other worlds and universes and dimensions...but maybe we don't go there and death really is just the end and there is nothing. Or obviously there could be a God but no afterlife, or an afterlife with no God. Or the scary one for many...eternal recurrence. The concept that eventually as the Universe recycles itself, everything will eventually lineup just like this over and over and over again.

I happen to think eternity is way too long for us to be gone forever, but that's just an opinion.

 

[SinisterKid]

I was reliably informed, by medical staff, that I did in fact die. Stopped breathing, heart stopped and that someone giving me CPR or whatever its called is the reason I am not brain dead today. Paramedics did the rest, ICU completed the job.

I was/am left with a impression that this is not "IT" the end. Its just another part of our journey. I cannot prove a damned thing. Its a impression that could just be a part of my mind playing tricks. But my mind could be trying to rationalise something that cannot be rationalised. I could be misguided. I could be crazy.

The darkness was absolute and yet not. There was a "shimmer" for want of a better term. It was warm, welcoming and it felt like I was a part of something so vast, I cannot find the correct words or phrases to even begin to describe it accurately. I was never aware of anyone else in the sense that we understand, but I "felt" a belonging. It was also a very seductive sensation. Something I dont fear to experience again. It could be total crap, a trick of my subconscious, a way of dealing with death. I have no answers to any of it, just these lingering sensations that are not dulling with the passage of time. That was 3 years ago now and nothing I have "experienced" before or since has convinced me I was incorrect in the assumptions I am trying to make. Nothingness with a vast amount of everything is about as close as I can get.

That is my experience, not opinion or philosophy, just what my mind is telling my conscious self happened. I dont mind sharing it, even though plenty will think me stupid, crazy or both. Its not open to debate or argument. It was as real to me as writing this out on this forum is real to me. But of course, I could also be misguided and delusional, so debate is the only thing that can possibly make any sense of it at all.

 

[sadgirl2002]

I really hope there's nothing after death, I've been through enough in this life. If there is a heaven or hell, I deserve to rot in hell for eternity.

 

[JoeFailure]

I was reliably informed, by medical staff, that I did in fact die. Stopped breathing, heart stopped and that someone giving me CPR or whatever its called is the reason I am not brain dead today. Paramedics did the rest, ICU completed the job.

I was/am left with a impression that this is not "IT" the end. Its just another part of our journey. I cannot prove a damned thing. Its a impression that could just be a part of my mind playing tricks. But my mind could be trying to rationalise something that cannot be rationalised. I could be misguided. I could be crazy.

The darkness was absolute and yet not. There was a "shimmer" for want of a better term. It was warm, welcoming and it felt like I was a part of something so vast, I cannot find the correct words or phrases to even begin to describe it accurately. I was never aware of anyone else in the sense that we understand, but I "felt" a belonging. It was also a very seductive sensation. Something I dont fear to experience again. It could be total crap, a trick of my subconscious, a way of dealing with death. I have no answers to any of it, just these lingering sensations that are not dulling with the passage of time. That was 3 years ago now and nothing I have "experienced" before or since has convinced me I was incorrect in the assumptions I am trying to make. Nothingness with a vast amount of everything is about as close as I can get.

That is my experience, not opinion or philosophy, just what my mind is telling my conscious self happened. I dont mind sharing it, even though plenty will think me stupid, crazy or both. Its not open to debate or argument. It was as real to me as writing this out on this forum is real to me. But of course, I could also be misguided and delusional, so debate is the only thing that can possibly make any sense of it at all.

It's not stupid or crazy. I heard something similar from this woman once who also said she wasn't entirely sure if there was an afterlife or not, but that when she was clinically dead, she also felt this incredible feeling of love and being free. She had kind of a tough life, and for the first time in as long as she could remember, she felt worry-free and was at bliss. She didn't necessarily see anything but she also said it couldn't have been "nothingness" because she was feeling something and had some kind of intuition that it was leading somewhere.

She also said the same thing about how when she was revived, she had completely lost her fear of death. She doesn't want to CTB or anything, but also said she can't wait until she has that feeling again. She still has a lot of stressors and concerns in life, but she's different now. I guess it's the perspective she has that one day she'll feel that again and that she really believes it's not the end either.

 

[sad_frog]

Honesty I don't think there is anything after life and I'm fine with that. I'm fine with death. What I'm not fine with is the fear and pain before death.

 

[woxihuanni]

I'm so terrified when you guys write you felt it is not the end. But then, you were not completely, irreversibly dead obviously. Maybe it is just dmt, I hope it is.

 

[JoeFailure]

I'm so terrified when you guys write you felt it is not the end. But then, you were not completely, irreversibly dead obviously. Maybe it is just dmt, I hope it is.

Why is that? What if what awaits is something better? Obviously yeah it could be worse too, which I could see being terrifying. I guess it's the gambler in me, I would want to take the chance to see if it is better.

 

[woxihuanni]

Why is that? What if what awaits is something better? Obviously yeah it could be worse too, which I could see being terrifying. I guess it's the gambler in me, I would want to take the chance to see if it is better.

I'm not scared only of something worse. I'm scared of this loving infinity even more. I don't know why nobody else is scared of it, strive toward it (Buddhism). I fiercely love my self and what I wanted to make my home, the beauty of this world in its poignancy. Giving that up and ending up with this formless existence is the worst that can happen.

Of course, what will happen will happen, regardless of how soon.

 

[JoeFailure]

I'm not scared only of something worse. I'm scared of this loving infinity even more. I don't know why nobody else is scared of it, strive toward it (Buddhism). I fiercely love my self and what I wanted to make my home, the beauty of this world in its poignancy. Giving that up and ending up with this formless existence is the worst that can happen.

Of course, what will happen will happen, regardless of how soon.

That makes sense in theory. And I agree, I would want to retain my inherent personality. I don't think something after necessarily means that's gone. I guess Buddhism goes more in that direction of a formless existence. I'm hoping it's just a different form where we can stay young or have expounded abilities without sickness and concern about money and shit like that. Maybe it's too good to be true.

I heavily believe there are other worlds and dimensions and all that kind of stuff out there, I just don't know if we end up going there after death or not. I think our understanding of the universe and "all that is" is really, really limited in our human construct.

 

[restingspot]

Honestly I just want my afterlife to be in the elder scrolls world since it's the only game that ever gave me fucking peace on this planet.

"The Altmer have powerful wizards. It could be a dangerous situation."

 

[woxihuanni]

That makes sense in theory. And I agree, I would want to retain my inherent personality. I don't think something after necessarily means that's gone. I guess Buddhism goes more in that direction of a formless existence. I'm hoping it's just a different form where we can stay young or have expounded abilities without sickness and concern about money and shit like that. Maybe it's too good to be true.

I heavily believe there are other worlds and dimensions and all that kind of stuff out there, I just don't know if we end up going there after death or not. I think our understanding of the universe and "all that is" is really, really limited in our human construct.

Maybe my terror is rooted in my hatred of the other. Give me a perfect world, that again is sheer terror, like formlessness.

 

[AnnaJaspers]

Jean dear, why are you dragging this out? You are a stranger to me and I don't give a damn what you think or believe, so why should you care enough about what I think to keep on with this? I simply offered information that I found. I have never tried to convince a person of anything, except to be kind to others and to animals. This is a crashing bore! You may have time to create walls of text, but I don't.

If I may be so bold you are a troll.

 

[justanotherday]

None of us knows what if anything happens after death.

 

[Black_Knight]

Maybe my terror is rooted in my hatred of the other. Give me a perfect world, that again is sheer terror, like formlessness.

I feel this. It seems to me no matter what happens it's impossible for any situation to be one that I could be content with. I used to like the idea of nonexistence but now that scares me too. All I can say is that these projections of possible awful (non)futures, and of awful (non)futures being the only possible futures, are heavily informed by our current mental states, which are so extremely and incomprehensibly limited (well, at least mine is) and context-specific that it doesn't make sense to commit to believing that only what we can guess is what can happen.

Maybe the problem is us. Maybe it's all in our heads. I don't know.

 

[woxihuanni]

I feel this. It seems to me no matter what happens it's impossible for any situation to be one that I could be content with. I used to like the idea of nonexistence but now that scares me too. All I can say is that these projections of possible awful (non)futures, and of awful (non)futures being the only possible futures, are heavily informed by our current mental states, which are so extremely and incomprehensibly limited (well, at least mine is) and context-specific that it doesn't make sense to commit to believing that only what we can guess is what can happen.

Maybe the problem is us. Maybe it's all in our heads. I don't know.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I do have a situation in mind where I would be happy, though. It is in this imperfect world, with only one thing unfucked-up. So no I don't want a fantasy world or non-existence, I want this world, just with my old place in it.

 

[Black_Knight]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I do have a situation in mind where I would be happy, though. It is in this imperfect world, with only one thing unfucked-up. So no I don't want a fantasy world or non-existence, I want this world, just with my old place in it.

Sorry. I think I jumped to conclusions and misunderstood you. I also have this fear of "the other" and of a perfect world but also a fear of having a place in an imperfect one, or having a place anywhere.

What I think I do understand though (pls I don't want to be wrong twice lol) is the drive to establish a real and undefilable individual selfhood while everyone else seems to be saying that it's impossible, that's not how it works, we're all composites of all kinds of other stuff so we aren't really ourselves, and the universe is all one and all that.

 

[woxihuanni]

Sorry. I think I jumped to conclusions and misunderstood you. I also have this fear of "the other" and of a perfect world but also a fear of having a place in an imperfect one, or having a place anywhere.

What I think I do understand though (pls I don't want to be wrong twice lol) is the drive to establish a real and undefilable individual selfhood while everyone else seems to be saying that it's impossible, that's not how it works, we're all composites of all kinds of other stuff so we aren't really ourselves, and the universe is all one and all that.

Yup, we're on the same page there. I have fierce joy in my selfhood, a love for things that are similar to or familiar to my self, and a distrust of things that are not. The oneness and universal love stuff is nothing but a nightmare idea to me.

 

[Black_Knight]

Yup, we're on the same page there. I have fierce joy in my selfhood, a love for things that are similar to or familiar to my self, and a distrust of things that are not. The oneness and universal love stuff is nothing but a nightmare idea to me.

Distrust is a great word to describe it. I don't trust a universe where apparently anything goes except having the simple satisfaction of saying "I exist" and knowing it to be true. I don't trust that any big universal entity that disallows that, and instead condemns us to psuedo-existence only to be reabsorbed by it for seemingly no purpose, is omnibenevolent. It's not enough that this planet is a dystopian madhouse where identities are fragile and dependent on outside forces to exist, always subjected to being destroyed, reshaped, or manipulated, but the universe and possibly beyond has to be that way too? It seems so overwhelmingly constrained and authoritarian. And yet I have to acknowledge that there is truth to it, I can't point to any essence outside of these forces to solidify my selfhood as anything other than an incident. But the fact that I can conceive of true selfhood and yearn for it must mean something. Idk lol, sorry for ranting.

 

[woxihuanni]

Distrust is a great word to describe it. I don't trust a universe where apparently anything goes except having the simple satisfaction of saying "I exist" and knowing it to be true. I don't trust that any big universal entity that disallows that, and instead condemns us to psuedo-existence only to be reabsorbed by it for seemingly no purpose, is omnibenevolent. It's not enough that this planet is a dystopian madhouse where identities are fragile and dependent on outside forces to exist, always subjected to being destroyed, reshaped, or manipulated, but the universe and possibly beyond has to be that way too? It seems so overwhelmingly constrained and authoritarian. And yet I have to acknowledge that there is truth to it, I can't point to any essence outside of these forces to solidify my selfhood as anything other than an incident. But the fact that I can conceive of true selfhood and yearn for it must mean something. Idk lol, sorry for ranting.

It's OK, I find it brave to fight for selfhood when the fashion is the other way around. I am aware that I am largely a product of chance circumstances, but it doesn't mean my self is less valid. I have every right to love someone chance shaped similarly, or the flora and fauna chance made familiar to me, and have no emotional investment in what is exotic, including other worlds. None of this would sound crazy to an animal if you could get it across to them, they live like that anyway. No fish tries to pretend to think elephants are the same as him. Fish does not even care if elephants exist or not.

 

[ish]

I was reliably informed, by medical staff, that I did in fact die. Stopped breathing, heart stopped and that someone giving me CPR or whatever its called is the reason I am not brain dead today. Paramedics did the rest, ICU completed the job.

I was/am left with a impression that this is not "IT" the end. Its just another part of our journey. I cannot prove a damned thing. Its a impression that could just be a part of my mind playing tricks. But my mind could be trying to rationalise something that cannot be rationalised. I could be misguided. I could be crazy.

The darkness was absolute and yet not. There was a "shimmer" for want of a better term. It was warm, welcoming and it felt like I was a part of something so vast, I cannot find the correct words or phrases to even begin to describe it accurately. I was never aware of anyone else in the sense that we understand, but I "felt" a belonging. It was also a very seductive sensation. Something I dont fear to experience again. It could be total crap, a trick of my subconscious, a way of dealing with death. I have no answers to any of it, just these lingering sensations that are not dulling with the passage of time. That was 3 years ago now and nothing I have "experienced" before or since has convinced me I was incorrect in the assumptions I am trying to make. Nothingness with a vast amount of everything is about as close as I can get.

That is my experience, not opinion or philosophy, just what my mind is telling my conscious self happened. I dont mind sharing it, even though plenty will think me stupid, crazy or both. Its not open to debate or argument. It was as real to me as writing this out on this forum is real to me. But of course, I could also be misguided and delusional, so debate is the only thing that can possibly make any sense of it at all.

NDE phenomena described in the literature are presented in a fairly biased manner. In fact, there are no honest summaries of such experiences
with the fact of the division of remembered periods in human life:
1. Prenatal period (in the womb) - confirmed by 100% by science
from 7 months of fetus.
2. Moment of birth - passage through the tunnel into the light.
3. Period from birth to death.
You don't have to be an expert and scientific authority to understand,
these phenomena occurring in the individual consciousness of man.

 

[JoeFailure]

Just a note here for others because when I was at my very worst, reading some of these things that people here claim to "know" for sure like the post above threw me deeper into the abyss...be weary of the people who do that. Because they don't know, nobody does.

Anyone who claims they know with 100% certainty about what happens after has an agenda. The discussions are great but the smugness that comes with it sometimes is unbelievable. I've never understood that imposition of opinion whether it's coming from politics, religion, or whatever. Why do people have such a strong desire to make someone believe what they do? It obviously comes from both sides in politics, and no doubt from many who are religious and say they "know" there's a heaven and hell and that Jesus Christ is the savior, but the same from many atheists who are on a mission to convert people too, and really in a hypocritical way since one of their biggest gripes with religion seems to be the same exact concept.

I hope the conversations and flow of ideas continue, but that people ultimately make up their own minds on what to believe. And not try to make up someone else's mind in the process in an effort to validate yourself. You don't need that, and nobody else does either.

 

[SinisterKid]

NDE phenomena described in the literature are presented in a fairly biased manner. In fact, there are no honest summaries of such experiences
with the fact of the division of remembered periods in human life:
1. Prenatal period (in the womb) - confirmed by 100% by science
from 7 months of fetus.
2. Moment of birth - passage through the tunnel into the light.
3. Period from birth to death.
You don't have to be an expert and scientific authority to understand,
these phenomena occurring in the individual consciousness of man.

If I had one iota of a clue what it is you are talking about, I might be able to comment, but as I have absolutely no idea, not much I can say is there.

Apart from "Fairly biased" is a oxymoron of the purest kind.

 

[ish]

If I had one iota of a clue what it is you are talking about, I might be able to comment, but as I have absolutely no idea, not much I can say is there.

Apart from "Fairly biased" is a oxymoron of the purest kind.

Borderline death experiences - NDEs are like
most real for the person who experiences it.
Nevertheless, none of these people died, all of them
relationships come from living people. This applies to different ones
states of consciousness, something similar to sleep.
The point is that consciousness appears in man already
in the fetal period (from the 7th month - the brain and senses are
developed, it enables feeling but also remembering).
What you described about your experience:
"The darkness was absolute and yet not. There was a "shimmer" for want of a better term. It was warm, welcoming and it felt like I was a part of something so vast, I cannot find the correct words or phrases to even begin to describe it accurately. I was never aware of anyone else in the sense that we understand, but I "felt" a belonging. It was also a very seductive sensation. Something I dont fear to experience again. It could be total crap, a trick of my subconscious, a way of dealing with death. I have no answers to any of it, just these lingering sensations that are not dulling with the passage of time. That was 3 years ago now and nothing I have "experienced" before or since has convinced me I was incorrect in the assumptions I am trying to make. Nothingness with a vast amount of everything is about as close as I can get."
- thinking rationally concerns your memories of the period
before birth and there is nothing in it
unusual. There is no proof of existence
consciousness after death. When the oxygen supply is cut off
blood to the brain, the brain is still functioning for about 4-5 minutes.

 

[SinisterKid]

So what you are trying to say is, my sensations/memories/feelings of that point in time are from a period of before birth and are not unusual? Can you prove that theory/opinion?

There is no proof or anything after death, just peoples opinions. My writing is not of a opinion, but a "experience" they differ widely. I have a very open mind about it all. No one here, or anywhere else, has so far convinced me of anything to change my mind about what, if anything, happens, when the oxygen supply is turned off.

 

[JimFord99]

So what you are trying to say is, my sensations/memories/feelings of that point in time are from a period of before birth and are not unusual? Can you prove that theory/opinion?

There is no proof or anything after death, just peoples opinions. My writing is not of a opinion, but a "experience" they differ widely. I have a very open mind about it all. No one here, or anywhere else, has so far convinced me of anything to change my mind about what, if anything, happens, when the oxygen supply is turned off.

That is the point. NDE don't do not as they did not not die, so, there is no real proof. The only ones who knows the truth can't tell us, because they are dead. There is a barrier between the living and the dead.

 

[SinisterKid]

That is the point. NDE don't do not as they did not not die, so, there is no real proof. The only ones who knows the truth can't tell us, because they are dead. There is a barrier between the living and the dead.

I'll have a pint or two of whatever that man is drinking

 

[JimFord99]

Single malt whiskey, actually. Cheers.

 

[ish]

So what you are trying to say is, my sensations/memories/feelings of that point in time are from a period of before birth and are not unusual? Can you prove that theory/opinion?

There is no proof or anything after death, just peoples opinions. My writing is not of a opinion, but a "experience" they differ widely. I have a very open mind about it all. No one here, or anywhere else, has so far convinced me of anything to change my mind about what, if anything, happens, when the oxygen supply is turned off.

I'm talking about rational thinking.
Can you imagine what memories you can have
from the period of life in the abdomen of the mother as a fetus?
After hypoxic and ischemic brain still retains its
all abilities for 4-5 minutes (in special cases
this time may be longer). Later, followed by irreversible
processes damaging the cerebral cortex, etc. up to putrefaction.
Consciousness is a living brain and senses.
Consciousness without brain and senses does not exist.