Discussion A shared purpose

[BipolarGuy]

I would agree with that, but it wouldn't end there. Both sides seek the destruction of the other. There's way too much animosity to come to any consensus.

Again, I just don't believe that.
The issue is the niche meaning of "pro-life" used on this website, along with the much meaning of "pro-choice".
I won't go into it because it's beyond the point and I don't think that entering the cess-pit would be useful.
Suffice to say that the only polar opposite would be people who don't believe suicide is ever justified (even in terminal illness) and people who are pro-death.
Nobody on this website openly admits to being pro-death.........do they?
Likewise, I think most people would understand if someone in pain from terminal illness wanted to 'quit'.

It's not advisable to build a theory or general statement based on relatively few people who possess extreme opinions.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Again, I just done believe that.
The issue is the niche meaning of "pro-life" used on this website, along with the much meaning of "pro-choice".
I won't go into it because it's beyond the point and I don't think that entering the cess-pit would be useful.
Suffice to say that the only polar opposite would be people who don't believe suicide is ever justified (even in terminal illness) and people who are pro-death.
Nobody on this website openly admits to being pro-death.........do they?
Likewise, I think most people would understand if someone in pain from terminal illness wanted to 'quit'.

It's not advisable to build a theory or general statement based on relatively few people who possess extreme opinions.

Pro life and "pro death" as you put it are the polar opposites. Pro choice is the hybrid of the two. What you're talking about seems like some sort of 4th option to me.

I respect your viewpoint and where you're coming from. But to me you're the one expressing an extreme opinion on the matter.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Is it a rational project to open up talks and try to work together?

They want to actively interfere in other people's lives in an authoritarian and intolerant manner, by getting a perfectly legal site shut down, to make ctb as hard as possible for desperate people, because they believe that suicide is some kind of moral abomination or sin.

People on SS just want to be left alone to talk about the things they want to talk about and access the information they want to access, because they believe that everyone has the right to choose life or death for themselves.

The fixthe26 people are the ones violating the non-aggression principle here, not SS.

What would a compromise look like?

 

[BipolarGuy]

Pro life and "pro death" as you put it are the polar opposites. Pro choice is the hybrid of the two. What you're talking about seems like some sort of 4th option to me.

I respect your viewpoint and where you're coming from. But to me you're the one expressing an extreme opinion on the matter.

Ok well I'll leave you in your belief that putting differences aside and working together is an extreme opinion.

It was me who first said that pro-life and pro-death are polar opposites.
It was you who implied that pro-life and pro-choice are opposites:

You have good and bad people on all ends of the spectrum, it's not about that. Pro life and pro choice ideologies are like oil and water. The two are completely incompatible and there is no real way of "working together."

Good night.

 

[Worthless_nobody]

In an ideal world yes I would love to see both "pro life" and "pro choice" come together and fix some of the problems that contribute to suicides. I wish I could say I had faith it could happen but sadly I don't. Mental health services in countries across the world are atrocious and need complete overhaul that's for sure!

My question is how could we get them to listen to us? Of course there are good people there and good people here but it seems to me their sole purpose is taking down this website. Now of course we know and they know that won't stop suicide...in fact this website HELPS people to have a space to vent, relate to others and find friendship we can't in regular life. I have made friends here and I can't in regular life because no one wants a broken ptsd friend who is triggered by things and isn't "fun"...I just wish they would acknowledge that SS is not all negative but lots of positive.

I think a good start would be getting both parties to agree that suicide needs to be something we can FREELY talk about without fear of psych ward prison. It helps to get these feelings out. Next things need to change on a society level and that's where it will be the hardest to get anyone to understand our views I think. No one can prevent abuse, trauma mental and physical issues and various things that make people suicidal. That's where I see the opposition will come in. Regular people see the suicidal as irrational and mentally ill. How can we change that view? I totally understand their pain and why they are mad and grieving over at fix the26....I have tragically lost people in my life (my once fiance who died tragically was a perfect case of FAILED healthcare) and I wanted to pin blame where ever I could because grief is complex. What i don't agree with is how it's handled... saying people here are evil and monsters and encourage suicide and that a website pushed them to do it is just not true.

Yes I wish we all could work together to fix mental health care because that's where things failed! No one comes here and just decided to ctb..the issues run deeper. A good start would be the ability to talk freely about suicide with no fear, better access to mental health services (and some free affordable options not tied to insurance in the US..other countries as well of course), guaranteed jobs (none of this mandatory experience stuff, on site job training is needed), safe affordable housing with caps in how much rent can be charged and laws that prevent rent from being raised, a LIVABLE wage where the person can live completely independent, better access to disability if needed....stuff like that is what the 2 sides should fight for. It won't fix everyone's problems but it would help improve life for sure! ... but I rambled on enough I have just been wanting to say this for a long time.

 

[BipolarGuy]

In an ideal world yes I would love to see both "pro life" and "pro choice" come together and fix some of the problems that contribute to suicides. I wish I could say I had faith it could happen but sadly I don't. Mental health services in countries across the world are atrocious and need complete overhaul that's for sure!

My question is how could we get them to listen to us? Of course there are good people there and good people here but it seems to me their sole purpose is taking down this website. Now of course we know snd they know that won't stop suicide...in fact this website HELPS people to have a space to vent, relate to others and find friendship we can't in regular life. I have made friends here and I can't in regular life because no one wants a broken ptsd friend who is triggered by things and isn't "fun"...I just wish they would acknowledge that SS is not all negative but lots of positive.

I think a good start would be getting both parties to agree that suicide needs to be something we can FREELY talk about without fear of psych ward prison. It helps to get these feelings out. Next things need to change on a society level and that's where it will be the hardest to get anyone to understand our views I think. No one can prevent abuse, trauma mental and physical isdues and various things that make people suicidal. That's where I see the opposition will come in. Regular people see the suicidal as irrational and mentally ill. How can we change that view? I totally understand their pain and why they are mad and grieving over at fix the26....I have lost people in my life and I wanted to pin blame where ever I could because grief is complex. What i don't agree with is how it's handled... saying people here are evil and monsters and encourage suicide and that a website pushed them to do it is just not true.

Yes I wish we all could work together to fix mental health care because that's where things failed! No one comes here and just decided to ctb..the issues run deeper. A good start would be the ability to talk freely about suicide with no fear, better access to mental health services (and some free affordable options not tied to insurance in the US..other countries as well of course), guaranteed jobs (none of this mandatory experience stuff, on site job training is needed), safe affordable housing with caps in how much rent can be charged and laws that prevent rent from being raised, a LIVABLE wage where the person can live completely independent, better access to disability if needed....stuff like that is what the 2 sides should fight for. It won't fix everyone's problrms but it would help improve life for sure! ... but I rambled on enough I have just been wanting to say this for a long time.

I agree that mental health services need a complete overhaul.

There has been talk on this thread about the need for compromise, and I'm not entirely sure I understand why.
Nobody needs to change any opinion for us to work together. We can both be for improvements to mental health services while still holding other differing opinions.
Working together doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything.

Very often roadblocks are put in place for no good reason.
But who knows, @sanctionedsuicide may contact me and give me their backing for me to open talks to start a discussion about campaigning for better mental health services, and fixthe26 may not want to work with us on that. Who knows?
But my feeling is that despite different opinions on various issues, they want the same thing regarding mental health services.

 

[Worthless_nobody]

I agree that mental health services need a complete overhaul.

There has been talk on this thread about the need for compromise, and I'm not entirely sure I understand why.
Nobody needs to change any opinion for us to work together. We can both be for improvements to mental health services while still holding other differing opinions.
Working together doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything.

Very often roadblocks are put in place for no good reason.
But who knows, @sanctionedsuicide may contact me and give me their backing for me to open talks to start a discussion about campaigning for better mental health services, and fixthe26 may not want to work with us on that. Who knows?
But my feeling is that despite different opinions on various issues, they want the same thing regarding mental health services.

You make good points. I agree on that.. Nobody does and probably will not change their opinions. Mental health services and healthcare in general are the issue here and it's an absolute tradgedy that people are failed by services that should be helping them. My ex fiance who passed is an example in my own life of how bad healthcare is...they literally turned a blind eye and refused to help him. And when they did help he got slapped with a huge over 20 thousand bill and had debt the rest of his remaining years. I think is absolutely insane that (in my country at least) I can get tons of stuff to ctb with but not one ounce of help when I have begged and begged for it. I simply cannot afford it. I did find one good dr but I still have to pay out of pocket. And access to disability services (which I would consider to fall under healthcare) need an overhaul. I think the common idea is there for us all....our healthcare services are FAILING us across the world! ....sorry for the personal story and vent this is a topic I'm passionate about.

 

[BipolarGuy]

You make good points. I agree on that.. Nobody does and probably will not change their opinions. Mental health services and healthcare in general are the issue here and it's an absolute tradgedy that people are failed by services that should be helping them. My ex fiance who passed is an example in my own life of how bad healthcare is...they literally turned a blind eye and refused to help him. And when they did help he got slapped with a huge over 20 thousand bill and had debt the rest of his remaining years. I think is absolutely insane that (in my country at least) I can get tons of stuff to ctb with but not one ounce of help when I have begged and begged for it. I simply cannot afford it. I did find one good dr but I still have to pay out of pocket. And access to disability services (which I would consider to fall under healthcare) need an overhaul. I think the common idea is there for us all....our healthcare services are FAILING us across the world! ....sorry for the personal story and vent this is a topic I'm passionate about.

No problem - your story is welcome here.
And it's good to be passionate :)

 

[esse_est_percipi]

There are those who campaign against abortion because they believe it amounts to child murder.
There are others who believe in the mother's right to choose because the fetus is part of the mother's body.

Can those two groups be united to cooperate to campaign for better family planning education, contraception, abstinence, etc?
Possibly, but I feel that the irreconcilable nature of the original ideological cleavage would make such cooperation of limited value, and a side issue.

As an aside, I find it strange that many liberals and feminists who believe in the right to abortion because 'it's the mother's body', are at the same time against suicide because life is precious, a gift, and that it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Mental health services and healthcare in general are the issue here and it's an absolute tradgedy that people are failed by services that should be helping them

I do agree with this though.
Because the NHS offers such a bad and slow mental health service, and healthcare in general, with people having to wait months and sometimes years to get access to the proper care if they even get referred at all, it's not surprising people become suicidal. Unless they have thousands to spend to go private, but even then they have to beg to get referred by sometimes very unhelpful nhs gp's.

It's the nature of the political and economic system though.
We need a radical overhaul of the types of societies we live in, not just a few tweaks here and there.

 

[BipolarGuy]

The only way we'll know what fixthe26 is willing to do is by asking them.

 

[goodbyebunny]

I don't wish for anyone to end their lives. But I also always respect people's decisions when it comes to this. It's their life. They get the choice.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I don't wish for anyone to end their lives. But I also always respect people's decisions when it comes to this. It's their life. They get the choice.

I think we all believe that on this forum, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

[goodbyebunny]

I think we all believe that on this forum, but that's not what this thread is about.

Really? I'm new here so I thought it was bad if we didn't want people to commit suicide. Anyway, I've been on that site before. Fixthe26 is pretty slanderous and paints suicidal/vulnerable people as predators. I don't think they want to be around suicidal people or work with them. It's kind of like a conservative slum.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Really? I'm new here so I thought it was bad if we didn't want people to commit suicide. Anyway, I've been on that site before. Fixthe26 is pretty slanderous and paints suicidal/vulnerable people as predators.

I don't think anyone here WANTS people to commit suicide. We just respect people's personal choice.

At least, nobody is openly wanting people to die.......though I have challenged subtle undercurrents on several occasions.

 

[goodbyebunny]

I understand much better now, thank you for clarifying~

 

[k75]

The only way we'll know what fixthe26 is willing to do is by asking them.

Maybe you should try asking them. I'm curious if you'll have better results.

Because that's what I was trying to say. I did ask them. And they did not want to talk about it.

They don't want to help. They made it very clear. They want revenge, but against the wrong people. Their agenda is to shut down this forum and other websites they believe make their kids commit suicide. This is not speculation. It's not bitching. They said so. Both on their own and when asked by multiple members here.

They are hurting, but they appear to have no interest in open discussion about anything that does not involve getting rid of us. Which is a sad waste of time and energy that could be spent trying to make real changes.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Maybe you should try asking them. I'm curious if you'll have better results.

Because that's what I was trying to say. I did ask them. And they did not want to talk about it.

They don't want to help. They made it very clear. They want revenge, but against the wrong people. Their agenda is to shut down this forum and other websites they believe make their kids commit suicide. This is not speculation. It's not bitching. They said so. Both on their own and when asked by multiple members here.

They are hurting, but they appear to have no interest in open discussion about anything that does not involve getting rid of us. Which is a sad waste of time and energy that could be spent trying to make real changes.

Ok I understand what you're saying now.

Perhaps your question(s) were constructed in such a way that it felt to them like an attack.
I'm not saying it did, just that it may have been.

All this nonsense about them coming "undercover" on this website and some people on here going "undercover" on their website is utter BS.
GPE has/had a comment on her profile encouraging members to use their star review system to mark them down - infantile bullshit!

We all need to grow the fuck up.

 

[HadEnough1974]

I have seen many comments about so called "pro-lifers" (which has a different meaning on this website than it does elsewhere).
My own neutrality has attracted accusations of me being "pro-life" and having an "agenda", apparently simply because I am willing to offer a different perspective...
...and once again I'm prepared to be the maverick and offer an alternative perspective...


It seems to me that the people who run fixthe26 are perfectly good people. In fact they may be better people than your average Joe because, frankly, not many people who feel strongly about something are willing to actually take action and do something.
I have huge respect for people who want to see something changed and go out and try to change it.

It also seems to me that the vast majority of people on this forum are also perfectly decent people who use this website due to how we're feeling.

What we all have in common (fixthe26 and people on this forum) is that we have been failed by mental health services as well as fallen victims to circumstance.
So rather than digging in our heels and throwing mud at each other, why don't we work together?

The support I have received from members of this website has kept me alive despite having been in possession of a method to end my life for a couple of weeks now, and despite setting a date to end my life three times in the last two weeks.

If this website were to be shut down, it wouldn't solve the problem. In fact it may make it worse as people like us wouldn't be able to access peer support.
If fixthe26 failed to shut down this website, it also wouldn't improve anything for us because we'd all still be experiencing the same issues regardless.

So I do wonder if there is a way we can all work together to tackle our common issues, one of which is poor quality mental health services.
I know that members of this forum (myself included) would be motivated to tackle this issue, and my guess would be that members of fixthe26 would be motivated by this too.

I totally agree 100 percent with what you have said and I was thinking the same thing. I just don't know if they would be willing to have a serious discussion about this matter. They can be pro life, we can be pro choice but still work on advocating for better mental health care.

The problem is that on their website, they have the names of republican senators who want to abolish healthcare to millions of Americans. Ted Cruz and Lindsey graham.

I think they view us as evil and they won't budge from that position. If they are willing, they should let us know. They can take the first step by stoping calling us evil.

I think they are very religious people and that gets in the way of everything. They see the world as good versus evil, they believe in heaven and hell and that we are doing Satan's work. Until that changes or unless I'm wrong, I doubt a dialogue and cooperation would work.

 

[k75]

Ok I understand what you're saying now.

Perhaps your question(s) were constructed in such a way that it felt to them like an attack.
I'm not saying it did, just that it may have been.

All this nonsense about them coming "undercover" on this website and some people on here going "undercover" on their website is utter BS.
GPE has/had a comment on her profile encouraging members to use their star review system to mark them down - infantile bullshit!

We all need to grow the fuck up.

I tried to ask many questions, but this is my final one. Does it sound like an attack? I didn't think so, but maybe I'm blind to it.

The rest were deleted by them.



On their website right now there's a victims section and an evidence section, which is a lot of screenshots taken out of context from this forum with our usernanes, accusing us of preying on vulnerable kids and making them kill themselves.

Nothing about that is reasonable.

I agree, things could be handled better at times. But regardless, I don't see a way to reach any sort of compromise here. We move on, but they keep coming back. Most of the people here weren't around then, so it would have been long forgotten.

 

[HadEnough1974]

The only way we'll know what fixthe26 is willing to do is by asking them.

I nominate you to ask them!!

 

[BipolarGuy]

I nominate you to ask them!!

I've said twice that I am willing to, provided this website is willing to back me, as I need to know that this forum is willing to work with them :)

 

[k75]

I have nothing against it. I don't go out of my way to attack them.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I totally agree 100 percent with what you have said and I was thinking the same thing. I just don't know if they would be willing to have a serious discussion about this matter. They can be pro life, we can be pro choice but still work on advocating for better mental health care.

The problem is that on their website, they have the names of republican senators who want to abolish healthcare to millions of Americans. Ted Cruz and Lindsey graham.

I think they view us as evil and they won't budge from that position. If they are willing, they should let us know. They can take the first step by stoping calling us evil.

I think they are very religious people and that gets in the way of everything. They see the world as good versus evil, they believe in heaven and hell and that we are doing Satan's work. Until that changes or unless I'm wrong, I doubt a dialogue and cooperation would work.

I don't care about their religious views or which politician they like.
Mental health care transcends these things.

I tried to ask many questions, but this is my final one. Does it sound like an attack? I didn't think so, but maybe I'm blind to it.

The rest were deleted by them.

View attachment 48533

On their website right now there's a victims section and an evidence section, which is a lot of screenshots taken out of context from this forum with our usernanes, accusing us of preying on vulnerable kids and making them kill themselves.

Nothing about that is reasonable.

I agree, things could be handled better at times. But regardless, I don't see a way to reach any sort of compromise here. We move on, but they keep coming back. Most of the people here weren't around then, so it would have been long forgotten.

In all fairness to you I think your post was a fair question, and it's a situation I have experienced myself.

That said, they didn't attack you for asking the question.
My understanding is that the guy didn't feel like moderating a debate.

 

[HadEnough1974]

I don't care about their religious views or which politician they like.
Mental health care transcends these things.

In all fairness to you I think your post was a fair question, and it's a situation I have experienced myself.

That said, they didn't attack you for asking the question.
My understanding is that the guy didn't feel like moderating a debate.

You don't care about their religious views? Ok so what if they tell you that the solution to your wanting to die is that you need Jesus in your life and they offer to pray for you and hand you a bible. Then what?

 

[k75]

I don't care about their religious views or which politician they like.
Mental health care transcends these things.

You don't care about those things, but I'd bet money they do. That is a level of openmindedness that has yet to be demonstrated.

In all fairness to you I think your post was a fair question, and it's a situation I have experienced myself.

That said, they didn't attack you for asking the question.
My understanding is that the guy didn't feel like moderating a debate.

I just don't know. There were at least 30 other people who did not get the chance to answer because it was locked as soon as I asked, and then unlocked long enough for him to say that, and locked again. Later, it was mocked by others but those posts were left open.

Anyway, I'd love it if someone could figure out how to help us all. The mental health system is killing so many.

 

[BipolarGuy]

You don't care about their religious views? Ok so what if they tell you that the solution to your wanting to die is that you need Jesus in your life and they offer to pray for you and hand you a bible. Then what?

Is that the situation?

You don't care about those things, but I'd bet money they do. That is a level of openmindedness that has yet to be demonstrated.



I just don't know. There were at least 30 other people who did not get the chance to answer because it was locked as soon as I asked, and then unlocked long enough for him to say that, and locked again. Later, it was mocked by others but those posts were left open.

Anyway, I'd love it if someone could figure out how to help us all. The mental health system is killing so many.

Exactly.
I remain open minded and neutral as always.

I do feel that we have a shared purpose - to improve mental health services.

 

[k75]

I don't care about their religious views or which politician they like.
Mental health care transcends these things.

Oh, you're not in the US, right? That changes things. Political and religious views play a huge part into this here, so pointing out that was very relevant to the topic at hand. It is generalizing, but certain types of people have a tendency to see only in black and white and be quite intolerant. It's generally impossible to break through that to reason. Again, I'm not saying everyone is like this, but you see it very, very often. And you can often safely predict certain behaviors/beliefs by politics and religion. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there are a hell of a lot of judgemental people here.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Oh, you're not in the US, right? That changes things. Political and religious views play a huge part into this here, so pointing out that was very relevant to the topic at hand. It is generalizing, but certain types of people have a tendency to see only in black and white and be quite intolerant. It's generally impossible to break through that to reason. Again, I'm not saying everyone is like this, but you see it very, very often. And you can often safely predict certain behaviors/beliefs by politics and religion. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there are a hell of a lot of judgemental people here.

I'm in the UK.
I'd like to believe that people in the USA are more complex than simple 2-dimensional characters whose thoughts and behaviours can be entirely predicted by knowledge of their political or religious belief.

We need to stop giving reasons why we can't work together and consider what we might be able to achieve if we did.

 

[k75]

Is that the situation?

Honestly, yes. More often than not.

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

How are we work with fixthe26, though? They want us dead.